BS: How long after can one make jokes about

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Smokey.
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 12:33 AM

I'm tellin' yer, it was a banjo - hence the tip-off.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 12:47 AM

Ho-ho-ho. Tee-hee-hee!

Now please shut·the·fuck up!

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 01:04 AM

Not a tip-off, not a drum at all. A tiple belongs to the bodhran.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Smokey.
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 01:08 AM

Shhhh.... He's trying to sleep..

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lox
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 03:47 AM

Ebbie is right to comment.

MattR wishes to correct us on the manner of Anne Franks Death.

"Anne Frank was not "murdered" at Auschwitz. She died of typhus at Bergen-Belsen."

All well and good except for two things.

1. If he had read the thread a bit more thoroughly he would have noticed that Anne Frank dying of typhus has already been established.

2. To say that she wasn't murdered but died of typhus is a bit like saying that ted bundy's victims weren't murdered but merely died of head trauma.

Deliberately imprisoning a person in conditions such as those under which Anne Frank contracted Typhus, and then allowing her to die untreated, constitutes nothing less than murder, only that her murder was all the more cruel and drawn out as the Nazi's wanted her to feel more than anything else that she was vermin.


Interesting paradox - pedantic yet ignorant.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 04:17 AM

There have always been jokes about death, illness, deformity.... "Did you hear the one about the Christian Brother and the 10-year-old-child....."?
Whether these jokes are acceptible, tastelss, funny... is a matter of judgement, personal taste, sense of humour....
The problems arise when these jokes are used as part of a larger agenda; racism is a pretty common example of how humour can be used to debase and dehumanise in order to persecute a racial, religious, social group.
I might laugh (momentarily) at the Princess Di jokes, but laughing (ie perpetuating) racist jokes is giving centre stage to the holocust perpetrators and apologists - read BNP (thanks but no thanks)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 04:21 AM

MtheGM

You have got a good sense of humour after all! :-)

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 04:24 AM

Thanks DeG _ out of interest - what brought that on?

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lox
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 07:16 AM

Jim,

The format of Joke that I consider inexcusable is that which says something like -

Q. Why do (insert scapegoat) have (insert caricature)?

A. Because they (insert slander)


So for example, Roy Chubby Brown says,

"I know not all moslems are terrorist, but why are all the terrorists Moslem?"

His crowd cheers because he's "got the Guts" to say what "everyone knows is true".

For a minute he gives them the freedom to hate Moslems without fear of being told off by the "PC Brigade".

They laugh at the "Irony".

In the process he encourages people to be mistrustful of moslems and to distinguish them from all other races religions etc as being potential terrorists.


The butt of the joke is the moslem. The crowd join together in their derision and scorn for both Moslems and those "bloody PC lot" who say "go on about racism" etc.

The point of the joke is to highlight that moslems are "not like us" etc.

The result of the joke is that Roy Chubby Browns crowd will go home and alienate Moslems after the show.


To determine whether a joke is racist/anti semitic/sexist/homophobic etc you have to ask three questions.

1. What is the focus of the joke - what is it that you are being invited to laugh at?

2. Is somebody being singled out and victimized?

3. if so, hhow is this being done?



If you cannot explain how someone is being victimized then you can't really claim that they are being victimized.

You need to be able to say what it is about somebody that is being laughed at, what lie is being told etc.

Someone might feel victimized by a joke, and some jokes are so "borderline" that this is more than justified. However, it is important to be sure exactly what the joke teller is saying before passing judgement on them or the joke.



It's a simple formula.



In light of previous threads, I've done a lot of thinking about Satire recently and I've tried tto think of a way of describing it that is clear and easy to understand for those who aren't familiar with it.

Obviously, no-one is under any obligation to enjoy satire and if it doesn't float your boat then tough on the satirist and on you.

However, it could be useful to be able to recognize it in a general way.

Here goes

Lets start with a couple of dictionary definitions.



.         the use of irony, sarcasm, ridicule, or the like, in exposing, denouncing, or deriding vice, folly, etc.
2.         a literary composition, in verse or prose, in which human folly and vice are held up to scorn, derision, or ridicule.
3.         a literary genre comprising such compositions.
Origin:




I would go further though and say the following.



There are different types of satire.

The two that we are most familiar with are political satire and social satire.

Political satire parodies and caricatures political views and positions.

So if I were satirizing Roy Chubby Brown, I would focus on the clumsy unintelligent way he abuses his victims.

e.g. in ridiculing his insinuation that moslems are all closet terrorists I would refer to recognizable stereotypes of Moslems and I would parody and exaggerate the kind of joke that sought to promote those stereotypes.

I would therefore caricature Roy Chubby Brown.

To parody his jokes and satirize him, I have to portray a gross and unpleasant sense of humour. I have to exaggerate how unpleasant he is.

Doing this believably, so that the point is made and has a bearing on reality, involves sticking in, in context, some unpleasant jokes about moslems.

If I were writing a novel and one of my characters was a homophobe, you would expect him to say homophobic things.

If I wanted him to be believable, i would need to make his conversation believable.

If I wanted you to hate him I would have to exaggerate the crassness of his views.

I would take the standard bullshit like "homosexuals are all closet paedophiles" that people like Ake spout, and I would exaggerate it so that you believed it and reacted to the character.

For the reader to attribute the views of the character to the writer would be the result of either bad satire on one hand, or non-comprehension on the part of the reader.

A writer cannot be blamed for the attitudes of his characters.

Not all Satire is in books, some is spontaneous and fleeting. A Stand up comic might take on a persona for the length of time that it takes him to make an offensive comment.

So in the voice and style of Roy Chubby Brown I might say "why do Arabs wear tea towels on thier heads? ... cos they need to wash more than us ... ha ha ha ha ha" ... I might then take out a dirthy handkerchief and wipe the sweat off my brow after laughing with such mirth, and then do the same to my armpits before blowing my nose in a way that demonstrates me to be foul and unpleasant ... just as Roy Chubby Brown is.

However, i would not want to be too obvious or it wouldn't work.

Satire must be believable or it has no teeth. It must reflect reality or it has no political purpose.


Anyway - that'll have to do for now.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: SINSULL
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 08:04 AM

The Oklahoma bombers were not Moslem. so he got his facts wrong as well.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: jacqui.c
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 09:10 AM

George Washington was a terrorist from some points of view.:o)

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: SINSULL
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 10:09 AM

You'll never pass the Citizen's Exam with an attitude like that.
REMEMBER:
"Father, I cut down that cherry tree."

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 12:18 PM

Now while we're at it. How come there are so many shows mocking the inadequates of this world? Shows like The Office for instance.
So because the character in a comedy like that, is not identifiable, by ethnicity, by religion, or by skin colour; does that make it OK to mock socially inadequate people?
As long as they're not black, moslem, Jewish, Polish, or any other identifiable group, that is!

Discuss

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 01:08 PM

Lox,
Thanks for that, will read it through fully later, but it appears to be as thoughtful an analysis of satire as I have come across in a long time.
I believe that humour is one of the most potent ways of putting across a message (good or evil) - the systematic ridiculing and sterotypiing of the Jews by the Nazis paved the way into the gas chambers for 6,000,000 of them and enabled the majority of the German people to either pass by on the other side or pretend it wasn't happening.
In 1968 a friend and I were somewhat aimlessly hitching across central Europe and found ourselves (unintentionally) in Czechoslovakia on the day they re-opened the border following the Soviet invasion. In Prague we were befriended by a group of students who found us somewhere to stay, (in extremely difficult circumstances) showed us the cheapest places to eat and regaled us with stories of recent events (including photographs).
They also told us literally dozens of jokes on the situation, some crudely anti-Russian to the point of racism, but others incredibly sophisticated and powerful; it is these that remained in my memory down the years rather than the factual accounts.
A couple of quick ones.
A secret service agent in Prague walked into a bar and, as the place was quiet, got chatting to the barman.
At one point the barman said, "What's the difference between the East and the West?"
"I don't know".
"In the East we have freedom of speech, in the West they have freedom AFTER speech".
The SS man laughed and said, what's the difference between this bar and you?"
"I don't know".
"This bar will be here tomorrow; you are coming along with me."
And
A secret service man shared a flat with a teacher in Brno.
One day the teacher came home, thoroughly depressed, threw himself into a chair and said, "I can't take any more of this paranoia. "Today I asked my class. "Who assasinated the Archduke Ferdinand?" and Pavel Hasek put his hand up, leapt to his feet and said "It wasn't me sir"".
The secret serviceman poured him a drink and packed him off to bed telling him not to worry about it.
A few days later the SS man said to the teacher "By the way, Hasek did assasinate the Archduke Ferdinand; he confessed under interrogation".
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 01:34 PM

I am reminded of the old Soviet 'Radio Armenia' jokes - Like: "Have you heard Pravda is running a competition for a political joke? The first prize is 10 years."

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Amos
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 01:51 PM

Humor about anything is a way to rise above it. Being so stuck to a loss or a sad state of affairs that one cannot tolerate any humor about it is a sorry state indeed as it closes the door on one way back to sanity.

A

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 02:00 PM

Try telling that to the blinkered PC brigade Amos

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 02:05 PM

Maybe Amos could give them all a drum instead............

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lox
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 02:10 PM

"Now while we're at it. How come there are so many shows mocking the inadequates of this world? Shows like The Office for instance."

The office is an example of social satire.

It lampoons recognizable cultural stereotypes in a way that allows us to laugh at how grotesque they are on the one hand, yet feel affection for the characters on the other.

This balance is important because the office parodies human characteristics which WE ALL POSSESS and as a result we see ourselves in the characters portrayed.

We either feel uncomfortable and cringe and hate it, or we feel uncomfortable and cringe and burst out laughing.

The key to creating social satire is in parodying recognizable cultural stereotypes and the key to appreciating social satire is in recognizing them.

The other major factor that makes the office so good is how close to reality it is and also how well acted it is.

Another show that does this well is peep show.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lox
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 02:15 PM

Oh I forgot ... it helps to be able to laugh honestly at yourself.

Jim I loved the second joke. Awesome!

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 03:03 PM

"Try telling that to the blinkered PC brigade Amos "
I always remind myself that the opposite to "political correctness" is "political incorrectness" - no competition I'm afraid.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Amos
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 03:17 PM

Rumpity-tumm-tumm, guys...brumpity-tum-tum... here ya go.



A

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 03:37 PM

Sorry - posted that last one in a hurry - Mastermind had just started.
Can I explain.
I certainly am no supporter of political oversensitivity, particulary after witnessing the disappearence of many good traditional songs following a campaign by feminists to purge the scene of so-called 'sexist' material.
However, I do believe there to be a middle ground in most subjects (with the possible exception of racism).
I find the term PC has the effect of polarising any subject, making debate extremely difficult.
If it's any comfort I als belive do- badders to be the opposite of do-gooders - again, no competition.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Matt_R
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 04:17 PM

[quote]2. To say that she wasn't murdered but died of typhus is a bit like saying that ted bundy's victims weren't murdered but merely died of head trauma.[/quote]

Compared to being gassed by industrial-strength roach killer or being eviscerated or any of the other number of excruciating and grisly methods of extermination used in the concentration camps, typhus doesn't sound much like murder in comparison.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: SINSULL
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 04:26 PM

Murder is murder Matt. Whether I cut your limbs off one at a time over a few weeks or chop your head off quickly, it is murder.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 04:27 PM

Sorry Lox, doesn't matter which way you cut the cake, it's mockery, and I was always told thatit was wicked to mock the afflicted

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lox
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 04:32 PM

Ok John,


Who does 'the office' mock?


And how?


And Matt,


Thanks for the recommendation - I hope I die of warm cuddly Typhus now that you have made it seem so attractive.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 05:10 PM

Social inadequates, the sort of people we have all met in our lives, particularly in a work scenario. Where we would never dare laugh out loud at them the way we do the guy portrayed in The Office.
If you wouldn't laugh at someone like that to their face, why do it when they are parodied on TV?

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 05:59 PM

Thanks DeG _ out of interest - what brought that on?

It was -

Ho-ho-ho. Tee-hee-hee!

Now please shut·the·fuck up!

I love it, but small things do amuse small minds.

:D (eG)

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lox
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 06:05 PM

John,

The Character 'David Brent' is an interesting one.

He has no idea in his head that he is anything less than funny, dynamic, intelligent, exciting and a real winner.

He is the kind of person who might be embarrassed by "social inadequates".

He would restrain his laughter at such people, but his instinct would be to laugh at them nonetheless.

He would recognize no "socially inadequate" characteristics in himself but rather wriggle out of admitting his own flaws with a combination of denial and projection.

In fact, he is very insecure and overconscious of how he is perceived.

Ultimately, he proves to be a nice guy underneath.

Its something most people can relate to in themselves - I wonder if you see any parallels with your life?

This is ultimately the result of his own insecurities.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Gervase
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 06:09 PM

Shh! David Brent is a regular poster on Mudcat. Under many different names.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lox
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 06:24 PM

Wouldn't that be interesting - if it turned out that half the people on here were Ricky Gervaise characters being written out before our eyes ...

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Matt_R
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 08:35 PM

[quote]Thanks for the recommendation - I hope I die of warm cuddly Typhus now that you have made it seem so attractive. [/quote]

I hope so too, I'm tired of your posts.

The state of North Carolina is not giving the H1N1 vaccine to people in prison and jail. One prisoner gets swine flu and dies. Is that murder?

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 08:53 PM

It's stupid and it's inviting multiple lawsuits. Influenza spreads through shut-in populations like wildfire and it's normally recommended they get the vaccine.

Is creating conditions that will make multiple PREVENTABLE deaths unavoidable if a contagious disease is introduced 'murder'? I think it's quibbling about language, but hey, we've quibbled about less monumental things.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 09:03 PM

Did you see the Santa Claus Union or whatever is demanding prority for H1N1 shots? They got a point though.........

How about for the prisoners that don't get the shot, we give them all a drum!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Smokey.
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 09:03 PM

I've never been, but nevertheless it seems unfair to compare North Carolina to Nazi Germany.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lox
Date: 20 Nov 09 - 09:33 PM

"One prisoner gets swine flu and dies. Is that murder?"

If the prison authourities know he will die without medical attention, deny him clothing and medical attention anyway and leave him to rot in an open wooden hut with no door, in the snow surrounded by decomposing bodies as part of a deliberate policy of imposing circumstances in which the chances of survival are nil, then yes I would call it murder.

As for the H1N1 virus,

I've had it and so has my daughter and we are both fine. Neither of us had the vaccine either.

We had access to medical attention, food, warmth etc.

I didn't even need any antivirals as my immune sytem (as in about 99% of cases) was able to adapt quickly and fight the virus off with a minimum of fuss.

North Carolina Prison inmates have access to comparable medical attention, clothing, shelter and warmth.

I think they are right not to succumb to the Panic aver H1N1

There is a subtle difference between life in a modern prison, and the realities Anne Frank endured and having read your posts so far I don't expect you to get it straight away, however I think its worth mentioning.


I'm afraid your comparison is as facile and feeble as your little put down.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 12:16 AM

Hmmmm......and since Lox put it so well, now I think maybe we oughta' give the Santas a drum instead of the prisoners..........or maybe we could just get more drums.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 05:02 AM

This is a bad joke thread, not a drumkit thread...

:D

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 11:11 AM

Thank you Dave! Finally!

See, I've been beating the drun kit to death (pardon the pun) all over the threads and no one til you has said "ENOUGH."   I love annoyance humor. Take something that is funny once and then beat it to death and beyond til everyone wants to beat you to death but do their best to be polite and not tell you to shut the fuck up.

Its a form of the humor that Andy Kaufman loved and though I detested him I was also a bit impressed as well. Instead of the audience laughing the comedian was laughing at us........The real master at this in the TV medium is Seth McFarlane who does "Family Guy."   He has a hit show and yet aggravates the hell out of some of his even most loyal viewers by beating a joke or a simple line into the ground.

I'm trying to be nominated to the Seth McFarlane Hall of Fame for Annoying Humor. I love ya' Dave and just because its you, I'm sending a drum!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 12:00 PM

Catspaw, I wonder if you have any idea how BORING you are? Are you proud?

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 12:23 PM

LMAO.....I love it!!!!!

You can have TWO drums...........LOLOLOL.................Perfect!


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 01:12 PM

Drums boring? I bet you are one of them anti-bohdran people as well!

Spaw - make it a tom-tom. Less postsage and get you there quicker...

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 01:34 PM

Thank you for personalising the discussion Lox.
It's nice to know people still revert to the personal insult, when their windy diatribes run out of steam.

JM

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 01:34 PM

I didn't say drums were boring — I use them for various purposes — just that Catspaw was, which seemed to have gratified him immeasurably. There, as HumptyDumpty would have remarked, is glory for you [by which, in case you have forgotten, he meant a nice knockdown argument].

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lox
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 02:07 PM

John,

"Its something most people can relate to in themselves - I wonder if you see any parallels with your life?"

Is this what you call a personal insult?


I am suggesting that to be able to relate to these characters is normal as they possess characteristics that most people share.

That after all is the point of social satire.

I asked you whether you relate to the character "David Brent". I had already implied that to do so would be to consider yourself to be among the ranks of most normal people.

I take it from your response that you see yourself as being a cut above the rest of humanity as to be accused of being on their level is an insult.

Or maybe you only consider yourself to be above "social inadequates".

I'd love to know how you establish who is and isn't a "social inadequate".

Back to your last post ...

... You are right - resorting to personal insults is a poor substitute for reasoned argument.

So is accusing people of insulting you where there is no evidence of any insult except that which you have inferred yourself.


I presume that your own "windy Diatribe" has ground to its own halt or you might have tackled my point rather than taking offence from the suggestion that you might not be perfect.

Maybe admitting to having imperfections would make you feel "socially inadequate"

It's ok - I'll restrain myself from laughing.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 02:26 PM

We are all unique.
Some of us make short posts for instance :)
So you don't have any answer to my theory then?

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: Lox
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 03:15 PM

"So you don't have any answer to my theory then?"

What theory?

I've just scrolled back thorugh this thread and you have posted no theory.

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 04:20 PM

Well that kept you out of mischief for a bit then ;)

Subject: RE: BS: How long after can one make jokes about
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 04:20 PM

Sorry Terry