Eddi Reader - Undervalued?

Subject: RE: Eddi Reader - Undervalued?
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 04:37 AM

AND.....there are those up their own arses types in the folk world who so bitterly resent anyone who's 'made it' commercially that they will do all they can to suppress conversation about those artists....

They despise those artists coming into the folk world, as can be seen above...saying they are 'using it' for their own ends...

Seth Lakeman and his brothers had this, Cara, Kate (although she was kind of forgiven by some because she didn't sign with Warner Brothers)...Steve Knightley too....

"They are not of 'us'!"

Well, sod 'us'......there is only 'WE', Joe.

And if people make it, if their music becomes deeply loved and appreciated by many, then everyone should be joyful!

I have joy in my soul when I LISTEN to this music. THAT is where my joy comes from. I don't play an instrument, but my ears are my own instrument, because from them, when they are filled with this music, comes *my* own music...and my music is my WORDS!


SHEESH!!

WHY do I always have to justify myself? Why can I not be left free to simply LOVE the music in my own way.

"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing its best, night and day, to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can fight; and never stop fighting."
e. e. cummings

Subject: RE: Eddi Reader - Undervalued?
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 04:30 AM

Joe, I will never speak *your* language, because I am not you. I respect that you, and others, speak in their own language, and I have never tried to get them barred, banned or sent to elocution lessons to learn to speak *my* way.

But...I am me. I write the way I write and I always will do, without restrictions...and if that means people banning me, then so be it, ban me.

I love music in the way that *****I***** love it...and I KNOW that I can sometimes set people on fire emotionally with the way I write about music, to the point where they'll go and buy the music too...

I don't have an ulterior motive here. I don't have Show of Hands pyjamas, nor a Seth Lakeman duvet, or Eddi Reader posters around my wall.

I'm just as happy talking about George Papavgeris as I am about Steve Knightley's music.....and I recall that when I *did* write about George's music, on the BBC, someone from the music industry (as in a critic) came on and said how delighted they were to see George's music getting the recognition it so deserved, that *he* so deserved!

I am NOT some silly, stupid fan who tracks bands all over the world...and it always made me fume at how those who've tried so hard to ban my voice used this in their own campaign, making those I did write about feel uncomfortable.

John's comment above illustrates this perfectly...when he said that he now fears for Eddi's career if I'm going to start enthusing about her..I mean???? What the fuck is that about, John?   

It's called suppression.

It's called making someone feel so shit about writing about music, and making the artist concerned feel so scared, that nothing gets mentioned again.

Well, Joe..as you well know, I've learnt to over-ride all of the crap they've thrown at me over the years...and you know well that they've thrown bucketloads at me. They track me, they keep their eyes on the BBC board all the f'ing time, waiting for me to appear, then taking great delight in getting me zapped.

What the f*ck kind of people are we dealing with here?

When I looked at that board recently, the Show of Hands thread I started way back is back up there again...although, as ever, my name has been removed from the thread, right from the start...and that hurts..it f*cking hurts, because every single word I've ever written on the BBC, and I wrote hundreds of thousands, (which people READ and many enjoyed, because they told me so) have all now had my name removed....

Tell me, if you had written a song, then someone removed your name from it, never let you write another song, without again removing your name, how would you feel?

ALL I ever f*ing did was fall in love with a music so beautiful that it moved me to a thousand places, took me to parts I'd never been before...and it was the MUSIC that forced me to write!!!!!!

I wasn't swooning over Steve and Phil, GEEEEEEZ! I have never even met them! Nor Seth Lakeman either!   But I tried damned hard to get the message about their music out...and whether the artists concerned like it or not, I did exactly that.

They've all been made to feel lousy about that though, by people who are so jealous, so up their own anger by not being the ones in the spotlight that they can't bear others to be...

Yes, Steve and Phil are now going down the traditional music road bigtime, it would seem, and therefore I'm a huge embarrassment to have around, but hey, I was writing about them for near on 6 years, bringing others to their music, and not a word was said,other than could I lay low over 'Witness'...but suddenly, they change paths and I have to be removed from that. ??????

Fair enough, I don't do hypocrisy, so I jumped off the path, bigtime.
But it hurt me to remove every trace of them from my Myspace page, it damned hurt me to remove my blog about their last Royal Albert Hall gig, because that took me ages to write..and I never did get to finish it because I stopped it when personal circumstances took over in their lives, meaning to finish it at a later date.

But I was writing about a whole gig there, about many other artists too.

There's a chap over in the US, a dear man, who takes the music I recommend and always plays it on his radio show. He told me he's never once heard me playing bad music, has always been impressed...and looks to me for inspiring him.

So, the object of their hatred has been to stop me from writing, Joe.

Apparently, *they* can love the music, but *I* can't.

Bugger that.

This music gave my words life! It runs through me, it fills me up, it brings me colours and pictures and happiness..despite all the bad tempered, controlling dingbats out there, who think that only they have a right to write about music.

Eddi Reader inspired me yesterday...and I so wanted to bring her music in here to some who may not have heard it...and I'm pleased to see I did exactly that.

THAT is ALL I have ever been about, Joe. Getting the music out!

So, please, don't bloody patronise me...or give me restrictions, or rules or this or that, or tell me to write YOUR way, because I never will.

Ban me, by all means....if you must...but don't ever tell me HOW to write, because that freedom belongs to me as much as it belongs to you.

I LOVE this music.

So, hang me!

Subject: RE: Eddi Reader - Undervalued?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 03:28 AM

I think I'd like to rephrase what I said above - Mudcat is a music site, not a fan site (and not a musicians-only site).

I'm trying to pinpoint what it is about these "Lizzie threads" that always causes such contention, and why I get such a steady stream of demands that Lizzie be barred. Lizzie means well and isn't a bad person, but I think maybe the problem is that Lizzie just doesn't speak the language spoken here, or at all the other music forums she says she's been banned from.
As I read these threads and the contention they cause, they all seem to express views of:

a. Music as popularity contest
b. Music as commodity (i.e., making more money and thus proving popularity)
c. Musicians as objects of veneration (i.e., popularity)

Certainly, there's a place for audience and organizers and agents and all that stuff - but is it about music, or is it about selling more stuff? We've all seen people on the business side of the music industry that are the musical equivalent of used...er, pre-owned car salesmen.
We've also seen fans who are so overbearing in their affection for their "stars" that they scare the poor performers. I remember a couple of fans who showered one group with multiple expensive gifts and flew all over the country to get to every concert - and the musicians felt they were being stalked.
So, it's not about the popularity - it's about the music.

As for Eddi Reader, she's not a bad musician, but in Simple Soul (which is a pretty good song), she sings in a way that seems like she's trying to be Sinead O'Connor. Heck, even Sinead O'Connor doesn't try to sing like Sinead O'Connor any more - and as a result, Sinead is a much better musician than she used to be. In many other videos, it seems that Eddi's trying to affect a folk-pop persona, instead of just singing the song the best she can, like she does in My Love is Like a Red Red Rose.

I've been defending Lizzie for years, and I see no reason why she should leave us. But I think she'd fit more comfortably here if she'd simply learn to speak the language, that it's the music that matters, not the popularity or the hype.

Now if you are a follower of the musical Wicked, you know that to Glinda, the Good Witch of the South, the most important think in life is to be Popular. But the rest of us know that Glinda's pursuit of popularity is shallow. It's just not where it's at, and it leaves other people talking behind your back. It's the music, silly. That's what we're here for. But don't leave us, Lizzie - just learn the language. I suppose there's a place for popularity - I don't mind the fact that the I'm the father of the leader of a band that has 4,900 YouTube Videos (Eddi Reader has 337). But I also know that band members have a certain contempt for the popularity, because it gets in the way of the music.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Eddi Reader - Undervalued?
From: Rasener
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 02:44 AM

In Fairness Joe, you say Mudcat is not primarily a fan site - it's a site for musicians.
Whilst that may be true, are you making an assumption that all organisers or audience are musicians?

Musicians need organisers and audience, organisers need musicians and audiences and audiences need musicians and organisers. We are all one big team or family.

In my case I am not a musician and I have never sung at a folk club, but I do organise musical events in the folk world.
Likewise there are mudcatters who just go to events, but do not sing or play, but go becuase they love the companianship, music etc, who in my opinion are fans of Folk Music, but will probably have their favourite performers.

Mudcat is something we value very much. So please don't exclude us :-)

Les

Subject: RE: Eddi Reader - Undervalued?
From: michaelr
Date: 22 Nov 09 - 02:24 AM

I don't know what makes Lizzie Cornish such a target for despite here at Mudcat. Maybe there are reasons, but I don't see any in this thread.

What I do know is that I am quite surprised - and dismayed - to see our usually calm and equitable Joe Offer come unhinged.

Joe, I thought you were smarter than to create a false dichotomy. Surely no one who calls him/herself a musician got to that point without first being a fan. It's a fundamental prerequisite. If you're inspired to try and make music yourself, it is inevitably because you've heard music that touched you in some way.

If we buy music records or CDs, we partake of "music as a marketable commodity", as Joe termed it. Are we supposed to feel vaguely dirty about it?

I'm a fan of many widely divergent musicians. I am also a performing and recording musician. There is no disconnect there. And I cannot help but feel repeatedly that much of the griping about commercially successful artists here on Mudcat is sour-grapes jealousy from performers with less appeal.

Eddi Reader is a hugely talented singer with an amazing vocal range and great emotional expression. Her collaborations with Boo Hewerdine have yielded transcendent interpretations of brilliant songs. Her album of Burns songs is widely acclaimed and should give her full folk credentials. Please forgive her for not keeping her hands straight down her sides.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Eddi Reader - Undervalued?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 11:10 PM

VERY kinky, GUEST.

Subject: RE: Eddi Reader - Undervalued?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 11:03 PM

IMHO Eddi Reader is a failed pop star who has turned to folk music as a way of making a living. To me her convenient conversion to all things Burns was just that. Commercially motivated.
I quite like her singing...just wish I could handcuff her hands behind her!

Subject: RE: Is folk music killing itself?
From: RTim
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 11:02 PM

Very little is going to stop those of us who have been involved for so many years, in so many ways....We are certainly NOT killing it!

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Is folk music killing itself?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 10:50 PM

Not a private argument - but moving the discussion to another thread tends to take it out of context - and that's why I complain about moving to another thread. The discussion started with yet another hype of a commercial musician, Eddi Reader, who may or may not be loosely connected to the folk genre. It didn't have anything to do with Lizzie being "lambasted for daring to say I thought Eddi Reader had the most beautiful voice." That's not something Lizzie could credibly get away with, if she had left the discussion in context.

The thread originator, Lizzie, encountered grumpiness, and couldn't understand why. I explained that the thread viewed music as a commercial commodity instead of just as music, and that's why there was a negative response.

So, the moving of the discussion to a new thread turns the discussion into a personal thing, and I don't see much value in that. By moving the discussion out of context, this thread becomes just another "All About Lizzie" thread. Too bad. Do you think she'll hold true to her promise to never start another thread?

Well, since most of the messages in this thread are about Eddi Reader, I'm going to combine the two and put things in context. Sorry, Lizzie, your bluff has been called.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Is folk music killing itself?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 10:44 PM

Don't worry, you aren't lost. It's where you live.

Subject: RE: Is folk music killing itself?
From: Soldier boy
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 10:40 PM

Is this some kind of private argument ? - 'cause you've all completely lost me in the UK!!

Subject: RE: Is folk music killing itself?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 10:34 PM

"Shit, you wonder why Lizzie couldn't talk about this in the thread where it began."

Nope. YOU wonder why, Joe.

Subject: RE: Is folk music killing itself?
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 10:32 PM

Damn..........Father JoeBro say "shit".....................weel, shit....................Is this something in Revelations maybe?

Okay Folks, let's all give Lizzie and Joe each a drum!


Spaw

Subject: RE: Is folk music killing itself?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 10:23 PM

Shit, you wonder why Lizzie couldn't talk about this in the thread where it began. But anyhow, I think that it's true that folk music will never again be a good way to make money. It had a flash in the pan in the 1950's and 1960's, and then lost its ability to make money. And I am very glad that happened, since real folk music, is music that people make themselves and share with other members of their community. If they can get a gig or sell recordings, that's nice - but they'd better find another way to support their families.

Abdul, you are a musician. If you sing and play two instruments and are learning a third, you are a Musician. You're hooked. A musician is not somebody who makes money - a musician is a person who makes music. And if you make music while sitting in a circle with a dozen other musicians and they enjoy it, then you're a good musician.

So, Lizzie, if the only way to look at music is on your commercial model, then folk music is indeed killing itself. As for me, I'd like to see the commercial model die a horrible, painful death.


-Joe-

Subject: RE: Is folk music killing itself?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 10:00 PM

Just listened to "Simple Soul" (watched the video, I mean), and I think it's a lovely performance.

Subject: RE: Eddi Reader - Undervalued?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 09:59 PM

Well, I never knew anything about her before today, but I really like that video where she does "Simple Soul".

Subject: RE: Eddi Reader - Undervalued?
From: Cuilionn
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 09:49 PM

While most of her work is a bit more "pop" than my usual choices, here's what I really admire about Eddi: her own story and her willingness to delve into--even relearn--a bit of her own musical/cultural heritage, and then to share what she's still--by self-profession--in the process of learning.

I tend to gravitate towards music that presents the stories/experience of Common Folk in all their unvarnished, rough-edged pain and sorrow and passion and glory. Sometimes I hear a hint of that in Eddi's music, and I think some of her Robert Burns interpretations offer much more than a hint. What frustrates me about her recordings is that I find that hint of raw passion and soulful singing so tantilizing that it leaves me hungry for more without offering quite enough to satiate that hunger.

I applaud her recent collaborations with folk artists and hope to hear more of her unplugged/unpacked efforts in years to come.

Subject: RE: Is folk music killing itself?
From: Abdul The Bul Bul
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 09:45 PM

Well I've been around Mudcat for quite a while and hadn't realised it was for musicians.
I sing in my own way, play the guitar, mandolin, and am learning the bouzouki. I can pick out a tune on the penny whistle and I know what the dots mean on the page.
I like most styles of music but I seem to prefer folk music.
I would never call myself a musician though.
I think Eddie Reader is great and as I've seen her on Transatlantic Sessions which to me is a gathrering of real musicians, I'd think she was respected in the 'trade'.
Sometimes you lot are really up your own bums.
You shouldn't go Lizzie, I saw your other thread.
Al

Subject: RE: Is folk music killing itself?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 09:38 PM

Dang! That is the first time I've ever seen something written in "greed" font, Gargoyle. I didn't even know there was a font for greed. ;-D

Subject: RE: Is folk music killing itself?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 09:27 PM

Alive - Vibrant - Happy to report that "Pro-Creation" amongst the "folk universe" is working well..in the New World.

Sorry to read about death on the islands.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

font color=greed>Look Lady....I will give you five....for the five times I have recently usurped upon your territory...BUT...don't start your BS in My Kingdom....above the line.

Subject: Is folk music killing itself?
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 08:46 PM

This is my final thread on Mudcat, after being told that I don't see music in the same way as you 'musicians'...and being kind of lambasted for daring to say I thought Eddi Reader had the most beautiful voice..


So....

It's my belief that those who whinge on about folk music not getting coverage, support etc..are actually a huge part of the problem, because when the music DOES get support, yes, even from idiots like me, you all jump up and down saying you don't want to hear nice things being said about yourselves....(Show of Hands, are you listening too?)

So you have your wish.

I'll stop talking about it.   I'll stop reading what others say about it...and the whole damn world of folk music can kill itself off quietly and become nothing more than what a few folk do on a Saturday night in the privacy of their own home, where no-one will see them, or praise them, or dare to say one single nice word about them.

In short, you want a closed world where 'the likes of me' ain't invited in.

You have it.

Subject: RE: Eddi Reader - Undervalued?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 08:33 PM

Oh, OK then Joe....I'll go and leave you er...'musicians' to it.

Subject: RE: Eddi Reader - Undervalued?
From: GUEST,Chris Murray
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 06:19 PM

What Joe said.

I don't particularly like Eddie Reader (too much wailing!) but I know that lots of people do like her and that's fine. I'm not arguing or being nasty - just pointing out that she's not undervalued. Not at all.

Subject: RE: Eddi Reader - Undervalued?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 06:06 PM

Well, am I allowed to say that I don't care for Eddi Reader's music? In most of the recordings I viewed, like Simple Soul, it sounded like she was straining her voice to sing, and it made me have a strained feeling in my throat. She sings in a more relaxed fashion on My Love is Like a Red Red Rose, and that sounds much better to me.

Still, I guess I'd say she's a pretty good singer. Her music is very commercially viable, for those who go for music according to its commercial viability.

So, anyhow, Lizzie, you've attracted some negative responses here, and I'm wondering why. I think it's because you talk a different language from most of the rest of us. You look on music as a marketable commodity, and most of the rest of us look on music as - music. For most of us, it doesn't matter whether Eddi Reader is popular or underrated or whatever. All we care about is her musicianship and the quality of the songs she chooses to sing. Her marketability doesn't interest us at all, and we get irritable when people start talking to us about music as a commodity. Primarily, music is something we make, not something we buy. If you discuss music from a fan perspective, then you speak a language that we do not wish to speak.

Mudcat is not primarily a fan site - it's a site for musicians, and musicians often get annoyed by fan talk. So, if you insist on talking about music as a marketable commodity, you'll find a lot of negative response to what you have to say. I suppose that's why there are so many negative comments in the thread about Sing Out! Magazine. The magazine is too fan-oriented for many of us musicians.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Eddi Reader - Undervalued?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 04:54 PM

Did you see her in Your Cheatin' Heart back in - 1990?? A John Byrne classic about the Glasgow C&W scene. There was classic scene involving line-dancing Hell's Angels at one point.

Don't let the bastards grind you down, Lizzie - on any other thread such comments would have been censured within minutes of them being posted.

Subject: RE: Eddi Reader - Undervalued?
From: Silas
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 03:20 PM

Just adding a little balance - thats all.

Subject: RE: Eddi Reader - Undervalued?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 03:16 PM

Why are you all so damn nasty all the time? Does it make you happy?
I truly don't understand some people on here, who seem to visit this site purely to get their kicks by kicking others, be they musicians or other posters...

It just shows me the meaness, and unhappiness, in their souls.

And now, back to Eddi Reader, who, it seems is not favoured by some folkies on here, who are going out of their way to be spiteful.

The only people you show up, and harm, are yourselves.

Subject: RE: Eddi Reader - Undervalued?
From: Silas
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 03:10 PM

Eddie who??

Subject: RE: Eddi Reader - Undervalued?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 02:56 PM

All Eddie Reader needed was to be discovered by Lizzie Cornish to make her career truly successful, well done Lizzie.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Eddi Reader - Undervalued?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 02:37 PM

She sings a very good duet with Julie Fowlis on JF's new album.

Subject: RE: Eddi Reader - Undervalued?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 02:31 PM

"Overvalued ?? "
Yup - certainly is.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Eddi Reader - Undervalued?
From: Grampus
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 02:17 PM

Overvalued ??

Subject: RE: Eddi Reader - Undervalued?
From: michaelr
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 01:37 PM

Factoid: ER was at one time a backup singer for Annie Lennox in Eurythmics.

Subject: RE: Eddi Reader - Undervalued?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 01:33 PM

Of course I've heard of Fairground Attraction, John.

And thanks for the kind comments about SoH and me daring to be enthusiastic. Peronsally, I feel your words are completely out of order there.

I've merely been watching many of Eddi's videos this afternoon...and found her to be a wonderful artist. Her songs are very moving.

Please don't try and suppress my feelings about music that I love, as I would never do that to you.

Subject: RE: Eddi Reader - Undervalued?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 01:17 PM

Lizzie, I'm afraid you're way behind in your enthusiasm, or have you never heard of Fairground Attraction?
Eddi has been a 'weel ken't' face around these parts for quite a while.
She's also posted in here a few time.
I'm glad that your enthusiasm has moved away from the over-rated SOH, but I fear for 'Big Edna' if you espouse her cause.

JM

Subject: RE: Eddi Reader - Undervalued?
From: michaelr
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 01:10 PM

Eddi is valued highly by me. I've got her new CD on order and can't wait for it to get here!

Subject: RE: Eddi Reader - Undervalued?
From: GUEST,Chris Murray
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 01:04 PM

What an odd thing to say. What makes you think she's undervalued? She's been around for yonks and is a very well-respected singer. She plays to appreciative crowds at numerous festivals. Her concerts sell out. She's sold countless numbers of CDs, played with some of the best folk artists in the universe and has an MBE. She's won shedloads of folk awards and has had at least one number 1 single.

I reckon she's greatly valued.

Can't stand her myself!

Subject: Eddi Reader - Undervalued?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Nov 09 - 12:09 PM

This lady is a superb singer and interpreter of all kinds of songs..

'Simple Soul' - Eddi and Boo

'Footsteps Fall' - Eddi and Boo again....beautiful words...

Ae Fond Kiss - Eddi...and Robert Burns :0)

Personally, I think she's undervalued by not only the folk world, but the music world in general.

Absolutely beautiful, Eddi! :0)