BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways

Subject: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 14 Dec 09 - 03:06 PM

Why am I surprised?

I forked over £600 for my daughter's flight to the UK this Christmas and BA cabin crew (the highest paid in the industry) decide to go on strike, causing the cancellation of flights and skuppering holiday travel for a million paying customers.

Just praying that her flight on 17 Dec. is not effected by the strike action which actually starts 22 December and ends 2 January. BA says this can effect flights 48 hours on either side of the dates. Her return may be messed up though.

Boggles my mind that these guys always opt to strike when either myself or a family member is travelling with them. Am I unlucky or just plain stupid for booking with them?

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Dec 09 - 09:23 PM

They have tapped your phone and computer and are watching you through your computer monitor. They read your mail and listen when you talk to neighbors or anyone. Late at night they peek through your window and make sure you're asleep in bed. They know when you are sleeping, they know when you're awake...

Wait, that's Santa's elves, not BA.

For a while every time we wanted to go to Ireland the Irish Posts went on strike.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 02:17 AM

I just find it incredible that these people going on strike can do so at a time that is most important for most families.

They get 0 out of 10 from me.

I hate BMI Baby, but I am now glad my daughter is on BMI on Sat 19th Dec and returns to Holland on Jan 4th 2010. Never thought I would say that.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 02:45 AM

OK... so I need all the positive Mudcat energy focussed on getting Hilary here. she flies on 17 Dec from Atlanta Georgia, which should be in good enough time for her not to get bumped.

Glad your daughter will be with you Villan. :~)

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 03:06 AM

Positive thoughts here VT and hope it works out for you as well.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: eddie1
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 04:56 AM

I'm supposed to be flying Heathrow - Hamburg on 19th Dec and back on 3rd Jan. Fortunately it won't be the end of the world if there is a delay but I do reckon this action is not going to create a lot of support for BA staff from the flying public. Or maybe it's a complete coincidence that they're striking at a time when people all over the world want to be with family and friends? Probably they didn't notice that Christmas comes right in the middle of the dates they've chosen. Maybe!

Eddie

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 05:23 AM

Are they that thick ?

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: jacqui.c
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 05:26 AM

Good energy for Hilary's safe arrival VT.

If you want to blackmail your boss what better way to do it than make his customers so angry that they go elsewhere next time. That will concentrate the mind of management, in order to avoid the PR disaster that cancelled flights would bring.

It's possible that the employees have a valid complaint but, in the present financial climate, I would be considering myself fortunate to have a job at all. Push too hard and that might not be the case.

From the news last night it seems that long haul flights may be safe as not all staff will be on strike. It's the domestic and short haul that will bear the brunt and, to some degree, there are alternatives, such as they are - road travel, trains, coaches and ferries for short overseas trips.

Good luck to anyone who's booked with BA this holiday.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 07:32 AM

We have always had excellent service from BA, especially in Club Europe. I recommend Monarch for the usual places in Spain. We may try Aerolineas Argentinas for the next trip to Buenos Aires.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: bubblyrat
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 07:43 AM

It's nothing to do with them being greedy---the strike is over the fact that BA have asked their cabin crews to take a 30 % cut in pay,as the airline has suffered (so they say ) a substantial (millions) loss this year. Not an unreasonable request,you might think,in these difficult times ? However, the staff concerned are unwilling,and,as stated on TV this morning, unable,due to the standard of living to which they have become accustomed,to accept this admittedly somewhat Draconian solution to their employer's monetary predicament.
          I gather that,although a majority were very much in favour of Strike Action,the staff members concerned would have preferred to defer such action until after a government review of the situation,due to occur in February.Some have ,indeed,expressed concern at their Union's decision to inflict all this disruption on the public at such a busy time,ie over the Christmas Holiday period . So, the people to blame are the "Bolshie" Bosses of the trade union concerned,who,like so many TU Officials, are demented with power and don't give a shit about you,me,Joe Public or anyone else. Not a good PR move for Trade Unionism, is it ? The Bastards !!

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: John J
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 08:04 AM

My daughter flies as cabin crew although not with B.A.

She tells me that B.A. cabin crew are paid up to twice the going rate, plus B.A. crewing levels are higher than others.

Cabin crew on other airlines are keen to work for B.A. because it's seen as a well paid, cushy number.

I can't comment on B.A. wanting to cut cabin crew wages by 30%, although I believe they want to reduce the number of cabin crew on flights by one. Crew numbers are subject to CAA regs, there is no question of infringing these regulations.

I don't know what else is going on with B.A. and their cabin crew, I imagine there must be more to force a strike. This is the only information I've heard from within the industry.

JJ

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 09:19 AM

Whatever, if it brings BA to its knees, then I hope they won't mind too much if they all lose their jobs. Would serve them right if that happened. Plus less planes, less pollution.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 09:23 AM

I've gotten to the point where I don't like flying anyway. It's combat travel these days. A berth in steerage would be better, although not a fast.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: maeve
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 09:23 AM

Tam, I hope all goes smoothly to bring your daughter to you for Christmas and then back home safe and sound in time for her job.

maeve

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 11:51 AM

Whatever, if it brings BA to its knees, then I hope they won't mind too much if they all lose their jobs. Would serve them right if that happened. Plus less planes, less pollution.


Obviously not a traveller!

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 12:01 PM

Can't afford it

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Rasener
Date: 16 Dec 09 - 09:27 AM

So it could be resolved - maybe - possibly.

What do those people who hav erebooked flights with other companies do?

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 16 Dec 09 - 09:49 AM

The BA staff at Gatwick already get paid less than those at Heathrow, have done for a long time. It's at Heathrow where the trouble started, from what I heard on the radio yesterday...

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Folkiedave
Date: 16 Dec 09 - 11:23 AM

British Airways have two scales pre- and post-1997. One is a well-paid job with good allowances. The other isn't.

When people strike someone usually suffers. But strikes are never one-sided and there was an overwhelming ballot in favour. I believe the management are as much if not more to blame. Willie Walsh has foregone his bonuses this year. Not especially difficult when you are paid £700,000 a year. And unless he is totally different to most bosses he'll be giving himself plenty of perks.

Now I happen to be in favour of people having well-paid jobs with good pay and allowances, especially if they have to spend periods away from home, I have worked away from home and it ain't much fun. I would certainly want a lot of compensation for doing it.

I do not like to see people hurt by strikes - but I certainly dn't want to see only one side blamed.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 16 Dec 09 - 12:22 PM

Whether the BA employees have a legitimate grievance or not, this much is clear: Thay have timed this so as to do the most damage possible to the airlines and to their customers. This could have been slated for almost any other time. The fact that the union will penalize those who are travelling to be with their families for Christmas says volumes about their selfishness and disregard for those upon whom they depend for a livelihood, their customers.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: folk1e
Date: 16 Dec 09 - 12:57 PM

No one goes into a strike to gain money!
Given that (untill today) BA were unwilling to even talk about a settlement there seemed little scope fore manoever.
Even today BA are persuing a court action to prevent a strike!
Not exactly one sided is it?
Even allowing for "voter irregularity" cited by BA there was a majority of 7-1 in favour of strike. Given that a strike is intended to cause maximum inconvenience to the buisiness what better time to call it? Especially if it causes your bosses to sit down and talk!

My last point ....... would the CEO be willing to give up 30% of his 700K sallary (and the rest of the board)? ....... I thought not!

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Folkiedave
Date: 16 Dec 09 - 01:14 PM

The timing of this strike was engineered by the managment. They hope to get the public against the strikers.

Seems like it might be working.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Dec 09 - 02:08 PM

Takes two to tango. When you get down to it the general pattern in strikes is that the strikers are responding to some action taken by management attacking their wages or conditions of work. And more often than not, as folkiedave said, the timing is engineered by the management.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Rasener
Date: 16 Dec 09 - 02:18 PM

Why would the management want BA to get in such problems? That doesn't make sense to me.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Dec 09 - 02:59 PM

Why would they want to cut their wage bill by by 30%? Hard to fathom that, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Folkiedave
Date: 16 Dec 09 - 03:19 PM

They have to make cuts despite huge (£1 billion) profits in previous years. The easiest way is to cut staff and staff working conditions. Then you make the staff look like it is their fault. You achieve a short term objective, and because you have reduced ordinary staff to low wages it should stay with you longer.

There is a problem. If low wages for everyone were a good idea, Rotherham would be paradise and South Kensington would be a slum.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 16 Dec 09 - 03:52 PM

It always amazes me when people display such ignorance of how business works. A company that is losing money can borrow for a short term to try to correct the problem. But creditors will not lend money to a company whose losses are escalating and uncontrolled. Now how can you cut losses? You have two ways to accomplish this: Increase cash inflow through increased market share, or by reduction of costs. Increasing your market share to gain additional profitability would work, except that airlines are competing for diminishing market share, which leads to lower fares and lower profit margins. And so the principle tactic becomes cost cutting, which includes laying off workers and cutting pay for those who remain. It should also include sensible compensation adjustment for executives. Those who insist on no change in the status quo are helping to send their companies down a path to bankruptcy. Then they will be forced to apply for airlines jobs elsewhere (in a market where the the supply of workers exceeds the demand for labor, which forces down wages), or learn a new skill.
Here is an excerpt from France24, an independent online international news service.
BA last month revealed that net losses quadrupled to 217 million pounds in the group's first half, or six months to September.
   
On Monday the airline said that its pension deficit had ballooned to 3.7 billion pounds (4.1 billion euros, 6.0 billion dollars), a 76-percent increase compared to the level in 2006, causing the airline to seek a "recovery plan".

In the face of this, the BA crews vote to strike during the airlines' most profitable time period? Short-sighted to the point of complete stupidity. As thousands of Flint Michigan workers learned, no one's union contract guarantees them a job in an industry on the skids. Finger-pointing at who might have been to blame for the bankruptcy of BA will be cold comfort at that point.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Dec 09 - 04:45 PM

From the figure the Company is in trouble, no great surprises there as over the last few years lots of national carriers have been in serious trouble.

As LEJ says it is a problem that has to be recognised by both sides and tackled with logic and reason. Management have merely stated the stark facts and presented what they think has to be done, the union side has just given them a blank no.

Fair enough go on strike, lose one of the most profitable periods of the year, that most certainly will not help, and yes your former passengers will remember. If they do not resolve the problem and costs have to be cut by 30%, then they reduce flights, fewer planes, fewer routes, require less staff so those members of staff get laid off. BA keeps flying and can possibly be resurrected at a later date. They may even take on new personnel, probably this time they will be sensible enough to take them on through an agency.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 16 Dec 09 - 05:38 PM

companies in trouble shouldn't keep paying the ludicrous salaries and perks and bonuses etc. to the upper circle and sticking it to the workers.

though i don't know if i like to think of BA cabin crew as workers in the same sense that baggage handlers and cleaners and ground crew and desk clerks are workers. not saying they don't have it hard, but the heathrow crew are very well payed by comparison.

wish they had not chosen the christmas period to do this.

i did read some comments on grauniad from BA workers from other departments who are cheesed off at "spoiled" cabin crew. they had made the 30% savings as requested by head office but cabin crew refused, which pushed the company to enforce measures against them.

so who voted in the Unite ballots? was it only cabin crew? do other BA workers belong to the same trade union?

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Dec 09 - 05:39 PM

I don't think many workers would object to "sensible compensation adjustment for executives" as a way of reducing costs, and showing goodwill. That should mean that pay and perks would be on the same level as other employees.

So far as I am aware this has not been proposed by BT management as part of their proposals for cutting costs.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Folkiedave
Date: 16 Dec 09 - 05:43 PM

Cabin crew voted. I believe it was an 80% turn out and a 90%+ vote. Remember how hard it is to get a legal strike in the UK.

Pretty good figures I'd say.

Some people do well being employed by an agency. Most people do badly.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Folkiedave
Date: 16 Dec 09 - 05:51 PM

I meant to mention. When the banks go on strike - by not lending money on occasions when they might have done and have government backing to do so - why does not one single newspaper ever lead with the word "STRIKE"?

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Dec 09 - 06:06 PM

"A reasonable man gets nowhere in negotiations." Words of "Slasher Walsh", BA boss, and a former union activist till he changed sides.

Easy enough to see why he did that.

From The Times in June this year:
"Willie Walsh, the chief executive of British Airways, will receive an inflation-busting pay rise taking his salary to £743,000 this year and could gain a further £1.1 million in deferred share bonuses."

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Dec 09 - 06:19 PM

Actually it's not that easy - why should any sane person want more than enough money to have a comfortable life for themselves and their family? And that only needs a small fraction of that kind of money.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: EBarnacle
Date: 16 Dec 09 - 07:43 PM

When the execs and admins take equal proportionate cuts in both personnel, perks and salary, perhaps there would be les likelihood of labor action.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 16 Dec 09 - 07:46 PM

No argument here that ridiculous compensation rates for CEOs are just that...ridiculous. Unfortunately, Walsh's pay is scrimpy compared to what some other CEOs make. CEO compensation is often spliced into generous stock incentives for achieving short term profit goals, even at the risk of terminal long-term damage to companies. The culprit is the Board of Directors who promise stock holders quick gains, and CEOs who clean up by securing those gains.

But to play a blame game while your employer goes down the crapper is non productive. The first order of business is to plug the leaks when the ship is sinking and before you have to swim.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Dec 09 - 08:01 PM

And the first leak to fix should be the money leaking to the executives.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 12:41 AM

McGrath, Walsh makes 743,000 pounds per year according to you. Did you see that they had lost 217 million in the first 2 quarters? His pay, no matter how grossly overpaid he may be, is a drop in the bucket. The bottom line is you ain't gonna balance the books cutting executive salaries.
Having said that, I agree that Walsh should share the burden. Let's say the pilots are asked to take a 30% pay cut. Damn right he should expect to take the same cut, for the good of the company and in the interest of fairness. Sacrifices should be made across the board by all employees in the interest of safeguarding the hand that feeds them.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 02:49 AM

it is not just the CEO salaries - private and public sector industry/organisation are all top heavy with high paid management and directorships.

Look at local authorities. Everyone complains that LA staff are over paid and have it too good pension wise... but really it isn't the foot soldiers delivery the services. It is the management. Essex is stil restructuring, juggling high level posts and still advertising for heads, directors and managers while saying they will cut "back office" staff in order to make savings.

Who is going to do the work, I wonder, when we are all gone? I'll tell you who... Local authorities are outsourcing.

IBM, ExcelCare, etc.... private companies that do not care a fig about the service they provide, only the money they make.

Our tax money at work, lining the pockets of public sector managers and big corporations.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 08:34 AM

£743,000 minus 30% still leaves the man absurdly rich. It's not the same thing when the basic pay is £14,000, which this cabin crew member gets: (see .

Drastically cutting executive pay (and other bloated rewards for greedy peopleat the top) might not make much impact on costs - but it would make "We're all in this together" meaningful - and that surely is something that any organisation in trouble needs to have.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 10:52 AM

Don't forget Higher Rate Tax and National Insurance, which takes a hefty chunk for the hideous brown - never mind, it's be the hideous Cameron soon!!!

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: folk1e
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 11:24 AM

As predicted .... it "aint gonner hapen" ..... the court has ruled the strike to be illegal!
........Whie's move!

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: John J
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 12:48 PM

My daughter (who flies with another airline) earns £13.5k pa, + flight pay + commissions for on-board sales = around £18.5k pa.

JJ

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 12:59 PM

The link went missing in my last post - here it is: "British Airways: why I voted to strike"

This lopsided court ruling marks a pretty shameful day for democracy.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 01:40 PM

This lopsided court ruling marks a pretty shameful day for democracy

No - it puts union thugs in their place, and many folks' Christmas will not be ruined.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Rasener
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 01:48 PM

McGrath
I don't agree with you.
Thankfully many families will be re-united at Christmas, and if you can't see the sense in that, well I just do not know what to say other than BAH Humbug.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 02:22 PM

You might like the result of the court's decision - but it overturns an overwhelming vote by the workforce, on very questionable grounds.

A few hundred people who had been bullied into taking "voluntary redundancy" were included in the ballot.

Whichever way they voted it couldn't have made any difference to the result - but that was the excuse used by the court to overthrow it.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 02:49 PM

I agree with McGrath. It also means that once the union arrange the next ballot BA only has to sanction more voluntary redundancies and back to court they go for a further injunction. They cannot win and democracy becomes total manipulated. Cabin Staff may receive above average pay for their industy if you include allowances but no greater than the average for the UK- and they are not the ones who have left a huge whole in their pension fund and created a reputation for double dealing wordwide. Perhaps also this is an opportunity for us to thank everyone who has to work over holiday periods so the rest of us enjoy a break -it is shameful to suggest they are greedy whether one agrees with the strike or not.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 03:05 PM

>>Thankfully many families will be re-united at Christmas, and if you can't see the sense in that, well I just do not know what to say other than BAH Humbug<<

You talk as if BA were providing some unique and magical service. Isn't it more like "Many families will not have to make other arrangements?

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Rasener
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 03:08 PM

Well I never. I am not religious, but you lot make me totally ashamed.