BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 08:37 PM

If people did their best to avoid travel via BA when their prices are low--and let them know why in writing--, you'd go a long way towards forcing them to drop their prices when they do take advantage of folks. (Teachers get friggin' nailed because their holiday time just happens to coincide with the rush to go places and they pay OTT to get anywhere.) You can bitch all you want, but if you suck up to them when they offer basement prices, they will thank you by f*&k*&g you in the ass at peak season. And that's what they're doing.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 07:22 PM

On the other hand the needs of the few outweigh the wants of the many.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 12:25 PM

"The needs of the many outweigh those of the few." (Spock)

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 10:19 AM

Why is the union not appealing the judgement then?

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 10:07 AM

The dishonesty lay in the fact that the judge, Mrs Justice Laura Cox, clearly made the judgement on the basis of the unfortunate impact she envisaged a strike having on BA and on would-be travellers.

And quite rightly so.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: GUEST,Kendall
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 06:49 AM

Jack, I speak of businesses here in Maine, not the big ones. Herman Shoe comes to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 04:47 AM

Methinks there may be partiality to be perceived on both sides.
Motes and eyes Kevin.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Dec 09 - 07:04 PM

The dishonesty lay in the fact that the judge, Mrs Justice Laura Cox, clearly made the judgement on the basis of the unfortunate impact she envisaged a strike having on BA and on would-be travellers. The relatively marginal flaw in the balloting process, which could not possibly have made any difference to the result, was transparently used as an excuse.

Otherwise of what relevance to the legality or illegality of the ballot were her words in her judgement: "A strike of this kind over the twelve days of Christmas is fundamentally more damaging to BA and the wider public than a strike taking place at almost any other time of the year"?

Seamus Milne in The Guardian got it right: "...there's not the slightest question that those mistakenly balloted half-way through taking redundancy could have changed the result. Instead, Mrs Justice Cox has made a transparently political decision to skew the balance of power still further in favour of BA's recklessly incompetent management."

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 07:19 PM

I WAS NOT dishonest. the ballot was illegal FFS

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 06:32 PM

>>Greedy unions have put more than a few businesses out of business. <<

Really? Can you name one? Certainly GM and Chrysler come to mind but If we had universal health care they'd be on an equal footing with Toyota and Honda and Ford is doing just fine and until the bailout screwed over the unions at GM and Chrysler, the big three always negotiated very similar contracts.

There do seem to be plenty of crooked people running unions but they seem more interested in skimming than closing down employers.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 05:48 PM

"they voted by a clear majority for strike action

And that was overturned by a court acting dishonestly.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: kendall
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 08:09 AM

Greedy unions have put more than a few businesses out of business.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 07:42 AM

Kevin, you can't win the Derby, if you start the race at Aintree, and everybody else is at Epsom!
Yes they voted by a clear majority for strike action, although most of those who voted did not envisage a strike of that length or on those particular dates.
So the union shot itself in the foot big style, and may find they get a smaller majority/turn out next time they hold a ballot.
Those people pay their dues, and they should expect their union to represent them efficiently.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 07:27 AM

Errm......Giraffe is the name of the eating place of course!

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 07:26 AM

I wonder if anyone would care to comment on the disatrous launch of Terminal 5 and how that cost BA a fortune.


Just teething problems I suspect. Having stayed at the Sofitel overnight (almost)we passed through terminal 5 over the August Bank Holiday for an early flight to Geneva, and the word superb came to mind for service and organisation. I recommend Giraffe for breakfast airside.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 12:23 AM

I do agree that free markets are very rare is any civilized society.

I'm sorry EJ,

I don't know of a market that works the way you describe. A Ketchup maker has to manage his supply chain or else he'll go out of business. If he just shops for price he will before too long lose customers either due to supply or quality problems.

The issue in my mind for BA is that for the strike vote to be that definitive at this time of year, management has not managed the situation. Whether its a poor strategy by the union or not is for them to decide. I suspect that they know the situation better than you or I do. It is not up to me to assign blame. But in modern labor relations I do know that the management holds almost all the cards.

Whether its a public relations problem for the union or not is subject to debate, But I will point out that the threat of a strike has got people like us following their plight.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: kendall
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 07:26 PM

You like old tired sayings? Whats good for the goose is painful for a gander.

Also, in regard to those strikers at this time of year, "You can ride a good horse to death."

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Folkiedave
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 06:37 PM

So Dave, on the basis of wasted money, should servicemen refuse to fight for their country, based on all the money the MOD has squandered?

Frankly - yes.

How the MOD gets away with wasting billions of our taxes on failed procurement exercises I will never know!

By the same token, if the banks after a load of reckless speculation by highly paid staff cause loads of people to lose their jobs who do you think should get the sack? Front line bank staff on fairly standard wages?

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 06:28 PM

They broke the rules governing a strike ballot of union members.
Now it doesn't matter what way you cut the cake Kevin, if an argument or a decision is based on a faulty premise, then the whole thing should fail.

There are 12,700 members of the relevant section of the union. 80 per cent of them voted - that's about about 10,260. And 92 per cent of those voted for a strike - that about 9,400.

Apparently 900 of those voting had agreed to take voluntary redundancy by the time the vote was taken. Still employed by BA, but working out their notice. That means that even if every one of these voted for strike action, and that vote doesn't count, there were 8,500 legitimate votes for the strike, and only about 1,000 against.

Of course for all anyone knows it might be that the votes against the strike were in fact mostly people who had taken redundancy and shouldn't have been voting in the first place.

However you cut the cake, an overwhelming vote was overturned by a court looking for a loophole. British Guided Democracy rules OK...

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 05:19 PM

If they lose their jobs,[a distinct possibility], how then will they pay that mortgage?

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: GUEST,weerover
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 05:15 PM

Many (most?) people in the UK take out a mortgage the extent of which means they do not have a great deal of disposable income after all the essentials. A 30% cut would therefore mean that some (again, most?) might not be able to make their mortgage payments, and therefore run the risk of losing their homes. What other tool than industrial action do people have in these circumstances to resist the imposition of such severe cuts? I am not unsympathetic to those who suffer because of strikes, and indeed have missed out on part of a holiday myself in the past because of same, but there is no point in industrial action which has no effect on anyone.

What are the chances of the CEO losing his home?

wr

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 04:18 PM

So Dave, on the basis of wasted money, should servicemen refuse to fight for their country, based on all the money the MOD has squandered?

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Rasener
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 04:02 PM

Time for BA to employ lap dancing stewardesses. That will bring the punters in.

Oops mustn't be sexist.

Time for BA to employ lap dancing stewards as well. That will bring the punters in.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Folkiedave
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 03:57 PM

I wonder if anyone would care to comment on the disatrous launch of Terminal 5 and how that cost BA a fortune.

I know someone who was there to test the systems before launch. The tests showed it wouldn't work. It didn't work. BA staff got the management out of the fertiliser as I remember.

I wonder if BA management hedged against rising fuel costs? As I understand it most airlines did and BA didn't.

Faults on both sides you could call it. Perhaps if the management told us how much their bad decisions cost the company we might judge the workers' case a little more fairly.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 03:44 PM

I was talking about the "free market" principle that Backwoodsman was describing, Jackthe S. It's pretty ridiculous to talk about a free market, especially in this case, since there isn't one in existence that I could name. Most capital markets are subject to government regulation and workplace protections. I don't in fact believe that a "free market" with laissez faire capitalist behavior is desirable.
What Backwoodsman implied was that the BA crews had a right to strike to maintain salaries because of free market principles, which is not true. In a free market the workers will sell their tomatoes to the buyer, or walk away. They won't threaten to picket the buyer's market until he agrees to pay the value they have determined their goods are worth.
Jack the S said "There is no market of Tomatoes trained and ready in BA policies and procedures with reliable work records and background checks in place that they can go to for such a short period". That's true, and that's why a strike can work. But it has little to do with free market principles. It's a threat to cost the company more in lag time, hiring, and training, than the savings of the salary cuts would gain. This is a sensible approach with a healthy company. With a sick company, it's akin to suicide, and to do it at Christmas will insure that the strikers get almost no support from the public.

By the way, I'm not a big fan of indentured labor or debtor's prison, but I do think the Pillory is underused.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 03:04 PM

I haven't laughed so many since I were a children.
Anybody would think business practices had changed Jack.
Here's the scoop, nothing has changed, it's still a buyers and sellers situation.
Just that nowadays the oppressor is just as likely to be the oppressed.
"O wonder!
How many goodly creatures are there here!
How beautious mankind is!
O brave new world,
That has such people in't!"

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 02:34 PM

There is no market of Tomatoes trained and ready in BA policies and procedures with reliable work records and background checks in place that they can go to for such a short period. There may be strike breakers that they can hire for MORE to do the job until the union breaks. But that isn't free market either. Is it?

EJ I'd like to see people with your idealism go back to the times of Dickens when the principles you support were in common use. What was your favorite part? Indentured labor or debtor's prisons? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Rasener
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 02:19 PM

You did indeed BWM, but not everybody reads other peoples posts.

Never mind,at least Lonesome EJ agrees with you :-)

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 01:19 PM

Isn't that what I said?

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 12:18 PM

We live in the Free Market. If someone is selling tomatoes, they will ask what they consider the best price for them and, if what they're offered is below what they're prepared to sell them for, they won't sell them, and no-one will force them to.
Why shouldn't people sell their time and labour on the same basis? What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

In a free market, a company who makes ketchup has the freedom to find the grower who provides the best tomatoes at the most competitive price. A grower has the right to get the most he can for his tomatoes. A tomato, like airline labor, is a commodity in a "free market". No grower can hold the ketchup maker to a captive price, and no ketchup maker can hold a grower to same. If they can't come to agreement on price, both are free to seek other growers or manufacturers. That, Backwoodsman, is how the free market works.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: kendall
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 11:23 AM

There are plenty of "brown" sandwiches to go around.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 11:21 AM

Surely the way to negotiate and, at the same time, not antagonise and inconvenience the paying public is to devise a means whereby the service is kept going but no money is collected for the fares. Issue "you owe us" notes, perhaps, to be squared at a later date. That is not stealing, just delaying payment. When I was in France I experienced strikers on the motorway "peages" letting the traffic roll, free, gratis and for nothing under the eye of "les flics".

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Rog Peek
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 11:05 AM

"lucky to have a job!" As far as I'm concerned, luck has nothing to do with it. People are losing their jobs because of fat cat greedy bankers and financiers together with incompetant money grabbing politicians. Workers argueing amoungst themselves over who should take cuts in pay, who should feel lucky to have a job and who should and should not be inconvenienced diverts attention from the real villains of the piece and plays right into their hands.

Rog

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: kendall
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 09:09 AM

I just added another "No fly" airline to my shit list.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 08:52 AM

They are lucky to have a job these days Backwoodsman as is everybody these days. I just happen to think they could have gone on strike at a different time than Christmas.
I certainly don't support the big fat cat salary grabbers if thats what you think.


When I was made redundant for the second time in 2002, I didn't have a sulk saying "They are lucky to have a job these days", I just got on with it and did a 750 letter mail shot (boy could I have done with a letter folding machine!) in order to take anything that came up - which it did. So I didn't need the patronising peabrains at the dole centre to find me a job, anyway I wear the wrong uniform for the dole centre!!!

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 05:45 AM

They broke the rules governing a strike ballot of union members.
Now it doesn't matter what way you cut the cake Kevin, if an argument or a decision is based on a faulty premise, then the whole thing should fail.
Curate's egg situations are only for cartoons.
I am amused at the almost total disappearance of the normal left wing socialist tenor of Mudcat, when it comes to something which might inconvenience us, or our friends!

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Rasener
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 04:37 AM

>>But I don't suppose we'll agree! Nothing new there! LOL!
<< Indeed LOL

See you in the New Year and best wishes to you and Mrs Backwoodsman as well. Hope you have a good time. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 04:22 AM

Villan, I agree about jobs, but the timing was clearly carefully and cynically manipulated by BA in order to get people like you on the company's side. Otherwise, why not leave it until after Christmas to announce these huge pay cuts? I'll tell you why not - because they wanted The Villan and his ilk to start wailing about how unfair these horrible greedy-bastard BA employees are, and how lucky they are to have jobs.

We live in the Free Market. If someone is selling tomatoes, they will ask what they consider the best price for them and, if what they're offered is below what they're prepared to sell them for, they won't sell them, and no-one will force them to.
Why shouldn't people sell their time and labour on the same basis? What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

But I don't suppose we'll agree! Nothing new there! LOL!

All the best to you, Mrs. Villan and The Villanettes for Christmas, see you in the New Year (for Mary and Anahata probably, and deffo for Jez & TBP's!).   :-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Rasener
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 04:08 AM

They are lucky to have a job these days Backwoodsman as is everybody these days. I just happen to think they could have gone on strike at a different time than Christmas.
I certainly don't support the big fat cat salary grabbers if thats what you think.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 03:11 AM

Nice one Linda, I'm with you, absolutely.

Villan, these BA employees aren't social-workers, it's not their responsibility to ensure that people living apart are able to play Happy Families at Christmas. They're not paid to be social-workers, they're paid to wet-nurse and butt-kiss passengers on flights - that's all. They're people already on low-ish incomes whose cunning, manipulative employer has manufactured the timing of this situation in order to rob them of a third of what they have, and to have a sure-fire means of turning public opinion against them when they object and try to fight back. Seems like BA have fooled a lot of gullible people.

But it looks as though they'll be working anyway, thanks to the courts, so families who are travelling will have Christmas together, which of course is good. Let's hope The outcome for BA's workers is equally happy in the end.

Happy Christmas everyone.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 06:12 PM

Sorry guest was me without my cookie. Greed is a difficult thing to quantify I guess -I see bankers and politicians as greedy and some-BBC journalists who challenge these people but a the same time rake in public money to the tune of millions a year Mr Paxman. But I don't see someone earning an average wage and threatened with cuts and job losses as greedy.Its a difficult argument to have weighing up the disappointment of someone not seeing their family at Christmas against the prospect of those losing jobs or taking paycuts which threaten their homes and family life. It isn't up to me to decide which is more or less worthy .I hope everyone here has a great Christmas and is reunited with friends and family and that anyone here under threat of losing their jobs or wages ends up with a secure and happy 2010. Merry Xmas.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 05:58 PM

Villan,

You are saying that I am not considerate. I am considering BOTH those who would be INCONVENIENCED by a strike AND those who will lose 30% of their income without it.

You have been implying that those who do not agree with British Airways management are wish people a bad Christmas.

I certainly wish TAM and her daughter a Merry Christmas and whether there is a strike or not I pray that they will get together. On the other hand, coincidentally, I have recently been informed of a 30% drop in my contracts for next near and the prospects for replacing that income do not look good.

I wish my problems were as trivial as an airline strike. But I'll suck it up and appreciate what I do have. On the other hand I won't begrudge those aircrews what little leverage they do have in trying to hang on to what they have.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Rasener
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 05:56 PM

>>Yes yes yes... I am needy and greedy. <<

No you are not VT. You are human.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 05:33 PM

A lot of us are having Christmas tightened up by pay and benefits cuts. That doesn't mean we won't make a merry one out of it. I feel more sorrow for those who have lost jobs than I do anger for the blows I have taken. And I will hope for, and wish to all of you, a Better and More Prosperous New Year.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Rasener
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 04:09 PM

Sorry Jack I do not agree with you, so can we please leave it at that. I hav eno wish to start a personal attack on you.

I hope you have a nice Christmas around the people you love so dearly and hope you can be a bit considerate for other families who just want the same.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 03:44 PM

ok ok... I am the one who is greedy. I have lost one daughter and have not seen this daughter since summer of 2008 and then only for a couple of days. Prior to that more than 2 years.

I have been missing my own country and my family.

So....yes I need to see her, hug her, hear her.

Yes yes yes... I am needy and greedy.

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 03:39 PM

So someone having to book a flight with another airline gets their Christmas ruined, and that is a terrible thing but someone losing 30% of their 14,000 pounds a year deserves no sympathy because they still have a job?

Perhaps you need to work a little on your Christmas spirit?

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Rasener
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 03:34 PM

So what.They have a job

Guest LOL

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 03:31 PM

LOL!! What about the many families of cabin crew getting their holidays ruined by wage cuts?

Subject: RE: BS: tis season to be greedy: British Airways
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 03:16 PM

But you always said you religiously supported Aston Villa Les!!!