BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.

Subject: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 10:14 PM

Yes, I'm feeling grumpy tonight...maybe because of health care debate...

But, c'mon folks! TRY to learn the difference between these terms and use them correctly.. 95% of TV personalities very clearly say 'insure' when they mean 'ensure'. And maybe 74.058% of those who type 'except' meant 'accept'.

Spelling? I'd better not start. At least some of that can be attributed to dyslexia or poor coordination....but c'mon...it's "Christian" not "Christain" and "lesbian" not "lesbain"...etc...

Ok...I'll go to bed now...others may add favorite examples...or throw virtual tomatoes at me.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 10:24 PM

I thought it was "termaters?"

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 10:41 PM

Well, Bill, between you and I....

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 11:12 PM

me, me, me, me, meow!**bg**

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: artbrooks
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 11:42 PM

A copy of "Eats, Shoots and Leaves" (or is it "Eats Shoots, and Leaves"?) belongs on every desk.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Dec 09 - 11:56 PM

I think your wrong in you're thinking Bill........Maybe if you could be more pacific on the points and not go off like nukular bomb.

Pasw

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Janie
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 12:05 AM

Bunch a grumpy ol' menz....up past yer bedtimes:^)

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Tangledwood
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 04:04 AM

Spelling? I'd better not start. At least some of that can be attributed to dyslexia or poor coordination....but c'mon...

c'mon - that would be "come on" would it?

others may add favorite examples

I might need some time to decide upon my favourite.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 04:53 AM

My smelling has always been first rate!!

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 05:21 AM

Shame this site does not have a spilling chucker.

:D (eG)

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: MartinRyan
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 05:58 AM

There's a famous old pub near where I live which once belonged to a man called Paddy Burke. So it was known as "Paddy Burke's", not surprisingly. The eponymous gentleman is no longer with us but the name persists. Recently, a new sign appeared at the entrance to the pub car park:

Parking is for Paddy Burkes's customers only!"

What's more - I think they're right!

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 08:31 AM

I am always surprised that so many Mudcatters cannot get the difference between "its" [= belonging to it] & "it's" [aphetic or abbreviated form of 'it is'].

Try to remember - "It's time that the Mudcat got its act together with regard to this."

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 08:40 AM

I'm in no position to cast stones. I just got caught out on forgo/forego.

I think I read it in the forward of a book.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 01:03 PM

"Shame this site does not have a spilling chucker."

My latest browsers, Firefox 3 and "Opera Unite" both have that feature...'sites' seldom have such features....do you know one which does?. Opera just underlined 'chucker' in red and allowed 'spilling'.


(I'm feeling better this morning....and I intentionally used c'mon last night) ☺ But you knew that....

But, while I am noting personal style preferences, I really cringe at THOSE WHO TYPE ALL IN CAPS. Fortunately, this is not common here.

and i cringe almost as much at those who do not think that any capitals are required much less punctuation and spaces and line breaks between thoughts so as to render their posts almost incomprehensible unless i read very slowly and start over a couple times.i sure wish it were not so hard.

(Yes, I do realize that 'some' have actual difficulty in focusing and composing written posts due to specific learning disabilities. I am not trying to embarrass those folks; I am only pleading with the careless ones to make a bit more effort.)

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 01:11 PM

are you saying there can never be another ee cummings, bill:-)

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 01:15 PM

... or another archy and mehitabel ...

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 01:26 PM

nawwww... literary devices, (like MY overuse of ellipsis), are another category. (But you knew that, also)

ee cummings did use capitals for certain effects, and I suspect Don Marquis did when he was not bringing us images of that indefatigable little cockroach!

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 01:31 PM

....and as for people who write "of" when they mean "have"....

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 02:04 PM

I think it was Artbrooks who said:

A copy of "Eats, Shoots and Leaves" (or is it "Eats Shoots, and Leaves"?) belongs on every desk.

Actually, it should be "Eats shoots and leaves", without a comma after either "eats" or "shoots".   You wouldn't put a comma into "Eats meat and potatoes," would you? (At least I hope not.)

Of course the tagline in the joke would need a comma after both "eats" and "shoots". But we're getting dangerously into analyzing a joke, which is always a mistake.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: artbrooks
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 02:12 PM

Actually, Dave, the title of the book is "Eats, Shoots & Leaves"...I'm looking at the copy of it that lives on my desk. The author's point is that this short sentence can have multiple meanings, depending on the presence, absence and placement of commas.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 02:43 PM

Why does an Australian girl call her boyfriend wombat?

Because, when he comes round to her place, he Eats, Roots, Shoots and Leaves.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 02:59 PM

Some clever little jokes come off better orally, where punctuation is not so crucial and a slight inflexion can create the intended point.

Oh - and while I'm here, I STILL hear and read about some sad event "wrecking havoc" on some unfortunate place. That, at least, is a semi-understandable error. Nevertheless, it grates on my tender ears.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 02:59 PM

It is also which camp you are in as to whether to include a comma after "and/&" or not.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Amos
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 03:06 PM

I don't think being ignorant of the verb wreak --as in "What hath God wrought?"--is all that forgiveable myself.

As for its bversus it's, come on yourself, Bill. THis is an electronic ASCII_based forum where fast answers are rattled off on antediluvian keyboards, and it is surely understandable that apostrophes get messed, misplaced, or forgotten in the haste of things in our electronic age.,


RUOKwidDat?


A

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: artbrooks
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 03:34 PM

Amos, it's a pronominal possessive...his/hers/its dog vs. the verbal contraction he's/she's/it's falling. Fat finger syndrome is no excuse for iggorence (sic). :)

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: GUEST,weerover
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 04:18 PM

Actually, the principal definition of "ensure" is to make sure, and "insure" can also have this meaning.

wr

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Amos
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 04:26 PM

I KNOW the difference, Art. It's not so much fat fingeredness as galloping cogno-rrhea...


A

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 04:30 PM

Jaysus, Bill, it's a pretty screwed up person who can find only one way to spell a werd.


I love the whose/who's mess up, too. Whose is the possessive and who's is the contraction meaning who is.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: artbrooks
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 04:35 PM

And here I thought that ensure was a liquid diet supplement....

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: GUEST,999
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 04:39 PM

You're right/rite/wright/write.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: CLETUS HARDDINGER
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 04:53 PM

I tel ya tru thet I aint got no spel chexin thing but I jes put her in rite tha furs time soaz it aint to hard an mayk shur tha wurdz got tha sound thay shood hav. Iffen yall doan git it or ya got sum sorta weerd problem then yall can jes go on an fuck yer oan selfs.

CLETUS

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 06:00 PM

"...who can find only one way to spell a werd."

Like Chaucer? Or Beowulf?



"...go on an fuck yer oan selfs."

tried it 50 years ago... hurt my back.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: CLETUS HARDDINGER
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 06:02 PM

But jes think Bill thet iffen ya coulda gotter dun whut a wunnerful life ittid be.

CLETUS

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 10:39 PM

As with e e cummings & 'archy & mehitabel' in captialisation [or lack of], as admitted above - one must allow for certain eccenticities & idiosyncracies in spelling. E.g., when I write 'enuff' or 'becoz', as I often do on these threads, it's just a wee gimmick of my own — influenced, I think maybe, by teenage textspeke, in which - tho a preternaturally old·old·old bugger - I must admit to finding a certain charm.

I reely-reely doo no how to spell 'because' & 'enough' - onnist!

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 10:50 PM

I done figgered youze did...

I 'think' the only non-standard (American) spelling I indulge in regularly is 'thru'. I wish it would become standard.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: JennieG
Date: 18 Dec 09 - 11:46 PM

Do you know the one that really sets my teeth on edge and makes me cringe......

saying "slither", when what is meant is something small....like a "sliver". Snakes slither. A splinter of wood is a sliver.

And youse all thort that us Ozzies coodn't spel or use good grammer!

Cheers
Jennie

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: IvanB
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 01:23 AM

Well, I personally hope y'all will keep me appraised of the outcome of this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 01:50 AM

BillD - agree thoroughly re 'thru'; also 'tho'...

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: TIA
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 08:21 AM

Confusion of affect and effect makes me crazy.

And, I cringe when the weather person calls for "a mix of snow and rain". No, I don't cringe - I shout "MIXTURE!" at the radio, and the kids roll their eyes at me.

Another one that gets me riled is whether versus wether.

Oh crap, now they are tumbling out...

aerial vs. areal
nauseous vs. nauseated
stationary vs. stationery

aaaggggghhhhh!

Must stop now.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 09:22 AM

I agree with most of what you write, Tia; but 'mix' as a noun, synonym of 'mixture', is well and long established, and recognised by good dictionaries [I have just checked my latest-edition Chambers to be sure I was not pontificating in a vacuum].

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 01:03 PM

In our current conditions, I also decry, although it isn't a matter of grammar, calling ANY snowfall above ½ inch a "snowstorm".

Right now we ARE getting a snowstorm....'tho' ☺ not a blizzard.
(I was in ONE blizzard once: it was different than just 'lots of snow')


(Is mentioning heavy snow a thread drift? Scholars bicker)

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 01:27 PM

Bill D - forgive me; but one which gets to my guts is 'different than', which you have just used. Things differ FROM one another, so 'different from' is the correct usage; 'different to' has a long history as an alternative - I believe that in old usage things could also differ TO one another. But 'different than' a no-no I fear...

(Tho I have noticed that it seems to be catching on in US usage, which of course differs in many ways FROM ours over here, so just maybe...?)

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 01:39 PM

ah...right! mea culpa! I plead guilty to succumbing to common usage. It was easier when I was still in school and among those who tried. I'm afraid that this new-fangled internet thing will dilute and distort the language even more. U see wht I mean?

(I find that I much prefer our (mostly) shorter spelling conventions, but I do like much many^* of the English traditions regarding grammar.)

* (replying to someone who both knows and cares makes me careful.)

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 01:54 PM

Shorter *spelling* conventions indeed — color, aluminum: but you will call a "lift" an "elevator" and a "car" an "automobile" ··· Shorter-shmorter. as one of Arthur Kober's or Leonard Q Ross's Bronx Jews might have put it...

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 02:03 PM

*tsk* "automobile" is for special occasions and names of organizations! We drive **cars**...(except that I also drive a very large 'van'...which I was JUST informed by an English Mudcatter at our folk Getaway was really a 'caravan'..meaning "any boxy vehicle large enough to sleep in" according to her.)

"Lift" is easier, but *shrug* Two countries divided by a common language.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 02:32 PM

A caravan is several vehicles going somewhere together. A lift is what you put in shoes to lie about your height.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 02:51 PM

Yup, Art! Hooray for our side!

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Genie
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 02:56 PM

Well, Jim,
Missspeling words like "sacrilege" and mixing up "forego" and "forgo" or "foreword" and "forward" is more understandable to me, and more forgivable, than using words like "it's" and "its" or "their" and "they're" or "who" and "whom" or other personal pronouns ("I" vs. "me") BACKWARDS.

If you ALWAYS used the same form - "it's," "me," "he," "who," etc. - you'd be right part of the time, maybe even half the time.
But way too many people end up writing things like
"Its time for every dog to be in its own yard,"
or
"Him and me threw a party for she and I's anniversary,"
or
"Who should I invite to dinner and whom should carve the turkey?"

I say if you can't remember when to use the apostrophes or don't understand the difference between pronoun cases, just pick one and stick with it.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Genie
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 03:18 PM

A lot (not "alot") of the time online (or should it be "on line?") typos occur or words are slangily shortened ("u r" for "you are") in "teen text" language or in other internet posting. That's understandable. I just hope the trend doesn't lead to new generations not being able to understand "adult-generated" text passages in things like books and newspapers.

But a lot the word mix-ups described here are genuine misunderstandings of what some words mean or how to spell some common words.

One of the ones that irks me is the confusion of "jibe" and "jive."   It's correct to say "My recollection of the event jibes with yours."   Not correct to say "The two accounts of the story jive with each other" (unless maybe they inspired some hot jazz or dancing!).


Also, someone mentioned the ellipse (or it it "ellipsis?"). I say go ahead and use as many as you like, but use them properly. They indicate that words have been omitted from a quotation or - I believe this is also acceptable - a considerble pause in the sentence.   They are not supposed to be substitutes for commas, semicolons, periods, or dashes.

The problem with so many people misusing the "..." is that now, when you quote part of an article or utterance and you indicate missing parts by "...," I'll bet half the readers don't understand that words have been omitted."
In cyberspace, people have begun using "" in pace of "..." when portions of a quoted article have been omitted. But that's kind of a pain in the arse in handwriting."
And, since that's become common only fairly recently, will people soon forget how to interpret "..." when they read a an article written before 2000?

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 03:21 PM

art & Bill - don't pretend to be more naive than you are - many words have more than one connotation so don't pretend you didn't know, or you shall both have to stay in & write lines after school!

I have always believed we should do better if the apostrophe were to be abolished completely — one thing I have always agreed with Shaw about.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 03:24 PM

"keep me appraised of the outcome" . Keep me apprised, please!

"Appraised" has to do with ascertaining the value of a good. "Apprised" has to do with notification or communication regarding changes in events.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 03:32 PM

Ekcetraaaaaaaaar when they mean etc!

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 03:33 PM

"Also, someone mentioned the ellipse (or it it "ellipsis?")"

Yes, Genie..'twas I. And I use it both correctly and incorrectly. It has become sort of an identifying aspect of my posts.

Extra dots, used incorrectly, are my way of 'suggesting' that there was more to say, or that there was a pause in my thoughts as I was typing. I use any number of such things, including HTML bold, italics, underlining, asterisks, etc., to try to make typing 'sound' like speaking. It is an exercise in attempting to add flavor to dull sentences and avoid some of the misunderstandings that can arise.

Just a 'literary device' like ee cummings used.

This medium is only a few years old now, and it definitely has its flaws. I will NOT give in and resort to txt mssg format.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 03:45 PM

The three dots can be used as more than merely the ellipsis ... as Bill said, to suggest ongoing thought, a sort of alternative to &c. Centralised ··· they can stand in for a - or a — ···

And textspeke a mst usfl innovtn, btw, IMO... ··· - — !!!

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Genie
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 04:05 PM

"Hoity- toity" and "hoi polloi" are pretty much opposite in meaning, but at least since The Lovin' Spoonful used "hoi polloi" (apparently) as a reference to the clientele at an upscale resort ("Jug Band Music"), I've seen that term used more and more - by people who should know better - to refer to the upper classes.


Oh, and, GUEST,weerover, you said:
"Actually, the principal definition of "ensure" is to make sure, and "insure" can also have this meaning."

Which reminds me of another often mixed-up pair of homophones:

"The principle rule to apply in science is the principal of parsimony."

Then there's this one:

"Godiva flaunted the law by flouting her unclad charms in public."

"

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 04:07 PM

Somebody way upstairs there (Jim Dixon?) wuz mentioning that there wuz a diffruns between forgo and forego. (OK, I'll forgo the dialect). Now who says I am wrong? I damn well ain't, or my Oxford (dictionary, not shoe) is wrong.

The entry (skipping origins and pronounciations)-
forgo, forego
1. to go away, go past, pass away
2. to go by, pass over, to leave alone or undone, neglect, overlook, slight
3. to avoid, elude. b. to overreach, deceive
4. to go from, forsake, leave
5. to abstain or refrain from
6. to abstain from, go without, deny to oneself; to let go or pass, omit to take or use; to give up, part with, relinquish, renounce, resign.
7. to go without (compulsorily), to be without; to miss, lack. b. to let go (involuntarily), lose, forfeit
8. (only in pa pple): exhausted with going, wearied, faint. also faint with emotion

Forgoer, one who forgos (something); 1828 Webster, foregoer one who forbears to enjoy; foregone, forborne to be possessed or enjoyed.

Got all that??

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 04:14 PM

I think I use the ellipsis even more than Bill............Actually I think I use the pseudo or faux ellipsis. Matter of fact I can't seem to write without it. If you're trying to impart the way you might phrase things in conversation, those damn dots are invaluable. Really............and I never use them in the 3 and 6 series as I should. What I'm trying to do is give a sense of my speech pattern which involves both long pauses..........................and, uh, well................................even longer ones I guess.........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 04:16 PM

...and then there's foreplay...

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Genie
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 04:19 PM

[[MtheGM:

The three dots can be used as more than merely the ellipsis ... ··· they can stand in for a - or a — ]]

If that is the position taken by them English rule maker-uppers, I fear pretty serious consequences in terms of people's words being misunderstood or even deliberately used to deceive.

If a scientist says "Global warming is not a hoax. It is probably not only man-made but also very serious or potentially catastrophic," and s/he is "quoted" in an ad or article thus:

"Global warming is ... a hoax. It is probably not ...man-made ... or potentially catastrophic,"

If readers think those ellipses indicate mere pauses in thought, not the omission of parts of the quotation, well ...

I think the ellipsis serves an extremely important communication function and needs its own distinctive punctuation indicator. As with the question mark, sometimes the punctuation can be the only key to understanding the sentence.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Genie
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 04:23 PM

Art, when I lived in Tronna (the capitol of Ontario), I was told that a Newfie once was sued by his wife for divorce because when he asked for foreplay, he invited another couple. ; D

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 04:38 PM

Some notes in clarification (?)
Merriam Webster Collegiate-
ensure....
"synensure, insure, assure, secure mean to make a thing or person sure. ensure, insure and assure are interchangable in many contexts where they indicate the making certain or inevitable of an outcome, but insure sometimes stresses the taking of necessary measures beforehand and assure distinctly implies the removal of doubt and suspense from a person's mind. secure implies action taken to guard against attack or loss."

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Genie
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 04:41 PM

Spaw: [[I think I use the ellipsis even more than Bill............Actually I think I use the pseudo or faux ellipsis. Matter of fact I can't seem to write without it. If you're trying to impart the way you might phrase things in conversation, those damn dots are invaluable. Really............and I never use them in the 3 and 6 series as I should. What I'm trying to do is give a sense of my speech pattern which involves both long pauses..........................and, uh, well................................even longer ones I guess.........]]

Spaw, you're not using ellipses. The ellipsis as a punctuation mark has exactly 3 dots.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 04:53 PM

Genie - no, I was simply describing my own practice re dots &c ··· I don't think there is an actual rule — indeed ... I am pretty sure there isn't - so I just go along merrily scattering them decoratively — just as the spirit do move me .·.·.·. -=-—

Seriously — I think one can generally tell when they are used elliptically &/or when they suggest a sort of mental aposiopesis.

Agree absolutely with you re 'flout' & 'flaunt' - the confusion that above all others fills me with the Aaaaaaarrrrrrrrrggggghhhhh-factor ...

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 05:02 PM

Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary:

Ellipsis. 1. the omission of one or more words that are obviously understood but must be supplied to make a construction grammatically complete. b. a sudden leap from one topic to another.
2: marks or a mark (as ... or *** or-).

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 05:16 PM

If I were writing a serious non-fiction book, I would write and edit quite carefully. In this strange joint, I play fast & loose with many rules.

There is, in fact, an actual standard character for ellipsis. alt+0133 on a Windows machine.
… (see?) as opposed to
...

(hard to tell apart except when side by side)

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 05:31 PM

Webster's gives a second meaning for flaunt- 2. to treat contemptuously. This brings up flout, which means "To treat with contemptuous disregard."

"'Tis a puzzlement."

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 05:40 PM

ellipsis in HTML … & + # + 133;

There is a tendency in printed material to standardize on the three dots.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 05:41 PM

& !!

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 06:03 PM

So long as you don't say "the hoi polloi". ("Hoi" means "the".)

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Genie
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 06:13 PM

Oy! that would be repetitive AND redundant!

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 06:13 PM

Reminds me of duplications seen in the southwest (U. S.), like "The La Fonda Hotel."
Sometimes hard to avoid.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Genie
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 06:31 PM

If you use a typewriter and/or don't have fancy symbols (or cymbals) at your fingertips, you make the ellipse by putting three periods (dots) next to each other: "..." not ". . ." .


Q, Merriam-Webster's online dictionary is more comprehensive in its definition of "ellipsis":

1 a : the omission of one or more words that are obviously understood but that must be supplied to make a construction grammatically complete
1 b : a sudden leap from one topic to another

2 : marks or a mark (as …) indicating an omission (as of words) or a pause

The second meaning is important, as the ellipse often indicates that portions of the text have been omitted, not because they are "obviously understood," but because they are unnecessary or irrelevant to the point or purpose of the quotation.   

This is where misinterpreting the "..." as a mere pause in the thought can be extremely misleading. If readers don't recognize that portions of the report or argument have been skipped over, they may erroneously think that they've read the whole report or argument (or poem) and all the information they need to judge its value or validity.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 06:35 PM

In the beginning God ......erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 06:39 PM

sign in restaurant:

**Sliced beef sandwich "with au jus gravy"**

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 07:12 PM

Q - English dicts do NOT include that meaning of 'flaunt' — I have just checked my Chambers. If it is in Websters it is clearly a purely Americam usage: & I cannot help but feel that it might have caught on as constant misuse made it accepted as standard.

...As happened in US with 'careen', which means to turn a boat over to scrape its bottom; but in US it was so frequently used mistakenly as a synonym for 'career', in sense of dash about in uncontrolled manner, that it appears to have become standard usage — BUT NOT OVER HERE!

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 07:15 PM

Just goes to show that the Brits are no better at dictionaries than the Yanks are. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 07:26 PM

Dictionaries normally only record written usages. I learnt "skeuomorph" in 1966, and the firsy dictionary I saw it in was Chambers Dictionary 8th edition (1993).

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 07:30 PM

I never heard 'career' used that way until a few years ago on Mudcat: it was always 'careen'.

It may be that another use of career, as a noun meaning "The particular occupation for which you are trained" or "The general progression of your working or professional life" made it too confusing. When I was in high school, we had "career day", and no one went dashing down the halls at high speed!

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 07:31 PM

I know Genie. I think what I shall do is give the dots a name of their own.


Florp: Any number of dots indicating a short pause, perhaps to think

Florp ER: A longer version of the standard florp, Extended Release sorta'.................


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 07:32 PM

True to that. We have a word used I think exclusively in Canada (west and north). I got in touch with the folks at the OED and they said exactly that: written usage only.

The word is 'link'--as in "I trapped a link today." It's a back formation of the word 'lynx' which is used that way as both singular and plural. Hence, someone hearing it way back must have thought, 'Hey, if he trapped two lynx then he must have trapped one link' in the singular. Interesting language we all have.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 07:34 PM

Don't know how I screwed that up. My post was in reference to a previous post in which the writer said that dictionary people go by written/published usage before entering words in the dictionaries.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 07:41 PM

Ave jest pit vice true a spiel chukka an vice is watt ah goad owt

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 07:44 PM

Yeah. What he said.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 07:57 PM

Q, my copy of Webster (New World College Dictionary, 3d Ed., 1996) omits that definition of "flaunt". Oh, and the online version of the Compact OED includes this definition for CAREEN: "move in an uncontrolled way; career".

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Genie
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 08:28 PM

Spaw, I love your idea! English grammarians would accept "..." ONLY as an ellipsis. All other uses of a series of dots as subtitutes for commas, periods, dashes, semicolons, parentheses, etc., would be called "florps" and would have to have MORE THAN three -- preferably 5 or more -- dots! That'd solve it!



As for Webster's accepting "flaunt" as a synonym for "flout," the online Merriam-Websters does, but it's obviously just reporting on usage. That dictionary acknowledges that "although this usage [of transitive sense 2] "... undoubtedly arose from confusion with flout, the contexts in which it appears cannot be called substandard. ... " (They go on to cite a couple of pretty well respected texts in which that usage occurs.)

< href-="http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/flaunt">http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/flaunt

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Genie
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 08:31 PM

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Genie
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 08:34 PM

Another misuse that's become so common, even among those who, one would think, are paid to know better is "suspicious" used to mean "suspect."

E.g., "The green van that was seen leaving the parking lot looked suspicious."

I've never known vehicles to be suspicious -- or to have any attitudes, thoughts or feelings, for that matter.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 08:41 PM

M theGM- Wrong. The Oxford English Dictionary has entries on flaunt, both sb and v.
I have extracted pieces of the entries, some of which are long.
Chambers, the little schoolboy dictionary, seems to be somewhat incomplete.
flaunt
sb 1. The action or habit of flaunting or making a display.
2. something used to make a show, showy dress, finery.
flaunt verb.
1. Of plumes or banners. To wave gaily or proudly, ....
2. Of persons. To walk or move about so as to display one's finery.....; to obtrude oneself boastfully, impudently or defiantly, .... of things, to be extravagantly gaudy, ....
3. trans. to display ostentatiously; to flourish, parade, show off.

So there, flaunt-a-flaunt! (yes, that is in Oxford as well).

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 08:52 PM

Now, the one that drives ME absolutely around the bend is the use (mostly in the past ten or fifteen years) of 'decimate' as a synonym for 'devastate'. Damn it, it means reduce by 10 percent, and I don't care what ANY dictionary says!

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 09:15 PM

An ellipsis also is a conical section.

Catspaw, have you tried using an ellipsograph to describe florps?
(Trademark that word before it gets stolen).

eppyfanny!
I foresee* a whole nother art form here to supplant them old cubists.
Florpism? (*forsee or foirsee if Scottish, take yer cherce). Conical sections with dotted entrails and testicles flaunt-a-flaunt

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 09:51 PM

Another pet peeve of mine is the misuse of "epicenter", where what is intended is simply "center".

As in

"Hollywood is the epicenter of the American film industry."

No, that would be saying that the center of the American film industry is underground, below Hollywood. "Epicenter" is a technical term in earthquake science, meaning that spot on the surface of the earth over the actual center of action of an earthquake, possibly miles down.

I hear this mistaken usage all the time in radio news broadcasts, even on NPR, and I first cringe and then audibly argue with the radio announcer.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 10:18 PM

I agree, Dave. Unfortunately Webster's Dictionary has picked up the word, as also meaning center, the example "epicenter of the world of finance."

(Now I know some posting here who wish there was an earthquake zone or magma chamber beneath those centers of finance)

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Rowan
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 10:38 PM

All this discussion of grammar is quite unique, you know, and leaves me disinterested, Now, how can I convey the usual stuffup between imply and infer?

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 10:46 PM

Perhaps you need something even more unique....................or at least more perfect.

Spaw (note the usage of the florp)

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 10:50 PM

He implied, and as a result of his implication I inferred that the guy with a gun wasn't very nice.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Rowan
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 10:55 PM

Yeah, Spaw. I was thinking that an ellipse was the locus of a point that moved around two other points and kept constant the sum of its distances from them, while the circle was its specially unique (and perfect?) version where the locus was around two points whose position coincided.

Is such materiel of interest, or is everyone still disinterested?

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Rowan
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 11:01 PM

He implied, and as a result of his implication I inferred that the guy with a gun wasn't very nice.

True, 999. Having had a little radio operation experience, I've often tried the "I, the transmitter, imply; you, the receiver, infer." with less than perfect success. And it doesn't help beginners that so many dictionaries list common usage while seekers of 'truth' use them as authorities.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: JennieG
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 11:05 PM

I would like to know who decided that a meeting between two opposing teams, for the purpose of playing a game with a ball, has become a 'clash' when it used to be a 'match'?

Cheers
JennieG

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Rowan
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 11:08 PM

Jennie, It's only a game! It's only a match when the two teams are evenly matched.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 11:12 PM

I recall that Nero Wolfe--the fictional detective created by Rex Stout--was burning "Webster's Third International Dictionary" page by page because it said one could use imply and infer interchangeably. Wolfe's assistant, Archie Goodwin, stated that he'd heard Wolfe make remarks about book burners. Wolfe replied, "I am neither a government nor a committee of censors. I paid for this book, have read it and found it to be offensive to the English language. So, I am burning it." And with that, he continued on with his task. I always got a kick outta that.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: JennieG
Date: 20 Dec 09 - 12:10 AM

Thank you Rowan, I stand (actually I'm sitting at present) corrected. But 'clash'?

Cheers
JennieG

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Rowan
Date: 20 Dec 09 - 12:36 AM

"Clash" for me brings up Titans and there are precious few of them around, especially on sporting fields. Jennie, 'tis your rite to use it and you're right; I'm sitting (but not pretty) too.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Dec 09 - 12:54 AM

Q -- no - WRONG RIGHT BACK 2U

--- [OED] flaunt verb.
1. Of plumes or banners. To wave gaily or proudly, ....
2. Of persons. To walk or move about so as to display one's finery.....; to obtrude oneself boastfully, impudently or defiantly, .... of things, to be extravagantly gaudy, ....
3. trans. to display ostentatiously; to flourish, parade, show off.---

Exactly, Q -- and this does NOT include the 'defy a rule or instruction' meaning which is what 'flout' means. Precisely my point. So don't knock Chambers, best dict of the lot!!!

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Dec 09 - 01:01 AM

Another maddener is 'sea-change' to mean any great change. It comes from Ariel's song in The Tempest in which he tells Ferdinand that his drowned father ['Full fathom five'] is being changed bit by bit to something connected with the sea: his bones to coral, his eyes to pearls - presumably his hair to seaweed &c. Its use to mean any great change robs that beautiful original concept of its poetic force imo.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 20 Dec 09 - 10:34 AM

I thought Titans were called Jets nowadays.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Dec 09 - 12:50 PM

Define disinterested, please.

Chambers best? Ugh! A little chamber of horrors.

Dave, and Brewers became Browns became Orioles. On that, I think I'll quit.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Dec 09 - 01:22 PM

Q -- Disagree about Chambers in smartarse terms if you like. But you haven't admitted you cocked up over OED & 'flaunt', have you? So why should anyone pay any mind to you, Mr Pusillanimous? You do well to quit. Don't come back.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Dec 09 - 01:58 PM

flout (OED)
-a mocking speech or action
-a watercourse
-a truss of straw
-to play on the flute
-to mock, jeer, insult
-to behave with disdain
-to ruffle (feathers). Erroneous [but established among some birders].

flout (Webster's Collegiate 1996, 10th ed.)
-to treat with contemptuous regard, to scoff.
"see flaunt."

flout (Webster's Third New International)
-to treat with contempt: mock, insult
-to quote or say sarcastically: sneer, fleer

-to play the flute

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Rowan
Date: 20 Dec 09 - 02:23 PM

Define disinterested, please.

Not having my OED handy, I've always understood "disinterested" to mean one is impartial and has no investment (or "interest" in the legal sense) in the outcome of a contest between parties; the US colloquialism, I suspect, is "to have no dog in the fight" while the UK version might be "to have no axe to grind". One might still be interested in the outcome, however, and want to know the result.

"Uninterested", by contrast, is understood to mean one couldn't care less about the result. You could expect an umpire or referee in any contest to be disinterested but would be disappointed if they were uninterested.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Dec 09 - 02:52 PM

Rowan, my opinion as well, but to many it means having no interest in it a' tall a' tall. In other words, uninterested.
I haven't looked into the OED yet, but Webster's 1995 Collegiate has this, to me, upside down definition.

Disinterested
1 a. not having the mind or feelings engaged: not interested (telling them in a disinterested voice- Tom Wicker> b. no longer interested [<....]-T. I. Ruben>

2: free from selfish motive or interest : unbiased < disinterested intellectual curiosity is the lifeblood of real civilization- G. M. Trevelyan> See indifferent.

There is added a paragraph on the word's "tangled history." To put it briefly:, in the 18th c., the "impartial" meaning fell into disuse. .....The original sense of impartial revived in the early 20th c. .... Now it has reversed again.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Rowan
Date: 20 Dec 09 - 02:59 PM

Yet another example of how 'recording current usage' in a place where people expect to find 'authority' leads to increasing imprecision and devaluation of meaning. No wonder problems with"communication" seem to be at the root of so many evils.

Sest lah vye, as one might say.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: GUEST,weerover
Date: 20 Dec 09 - 04:09 PM

To come back to "suspicious" for a moment, one of the definitions in Chambers is "giving ground for suspicion". That'll do for me.

wr

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Dec 09 - 04:18 PM

ground? grounds?

suspicion, suspicioned, suspicioning (ca. 1637): suspect. Three good old words for you.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Tangledwood
Date: 20 Dec 09 - 04:51 PM

I would like to know who decided that a meeting between two opposing teams, for the purpose of playing a game with a ball, has become a 'clash' when it used to be a 'match'?

Cheers
JennieG

My guess would be that it was the same person who decided that any player who actually touches the ball is a "hero".

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 20 Dec 09 - 05:15 PM

Depends on the sport. In some games it's a penalty.

And you do get a clash in shinty - see Runrig's "The Clash of the Ash".

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 01:16 AM

"Global warming is ... a hoax. It is probably not ...man-made ... or potentially catastrophic,"


Genie, you misimplied00000000000000000000000000000 (Sorry, archy is editing)the reasoning there. I'm sure you meant to indicate that William Shatner was present.

archy, my cat, named before I rescued his then 12-year-old self, is coal black (with 14 white hairs on his chest, never gets his name spelt correctly. It is surprising how many people never saw the play.

The error that bothers me most, I think, is 'effect/affect'. It is true that in psychology 'affect' is used differently so maybe that is why some people are mixed up about it, but in normal use its misuse seems so egregious to me I have to consciously turn off my fix-it button to get past it.

Oh, yeah- and 'very unique'.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 01:46 AM

Ebbie - what play has a black cat called 'archy'? I know don marquis's 'archy the cockroach' who couldn't reach the typewriter shift-key so could only type his philosophical speculations in lower case and who had a cat friend called mehitabel - but who is/was archy the cat?

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 07:46 PM

MtheGM, I misled you. archy IS a cockroach - because of his color and his personality my cat's previous owner named him for archy. I meant that his name should never be capitalized because of the cockroach. People (including his vet) tend to spell his name: Archie. And that is SO wrong. :)

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: GUEST,999
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 07:49 PM

I loved cockroaches about as much as I loved crabs.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 11:08 PM

Ebbie - poor old moggie, having his name misspelled, I should say it is wrong: why, positively iniquitous. We should start a campaign - or something. - Michael -
; ~)§

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Dec 09 - 11:18 PM

I know. He feels so bad about it. :)

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 04:21 AM

Kisskiss xxx archy puss — we are all rooting 4U darling.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Genie
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 06:40 AM

I thought Rowan was being sarcastic here:

"All this discussion of grammar is quite unique, you know, and leaves me disinterested, Now, how can I convey the usual stuffup between imply and infer?"

Of course "disinterested" means "impartial" or "not having any vested interest" and really leads to confusion when it's used interchangeably with "uninterested" ("bored" or "unconcerned").    But, sad to say, as with many other words and other aspects of the English language, today's journalists (and others who one would expect to be educated in its usage) either lack good background in the language or have just become lazy.

Nowadays it seems like when an error occurs in some very public place (e.g., a TV show or newspaper, journalists and commentators and writers just pick it up and run with it, as though they'd never been taught otherwise.
There are highly educated, otherwise very articulate people who I'm pretty sure would never have said things like "Give it to my wife or I," but who are now using that sort of construction, just because they hear other people doing it.

Yes, I know that eventually a particular usage can come to seem natural, even when you know it's wrong.   I'll admit that it would feel and sound awkward if I said, "That would be I," when someone asked "Who wrote that song?"
But I usually just try to use wording that lets me get around that. ("I did," not "That would be me.")

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Genie
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 06:46 AM

Ebbie: "I know. He feels so bad about it. :)"

You just reminded me of another language usage pet peeve:   People saying "I feel really badly" when they mean "I feel bad."

When the dentist gives you novacaine, you feel badly - at least in parts of your face - for a while.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 07:04 AM

Fowler had much to see about the nominative ['I'] or the accusative ['me'] in apposition to the verb 'to be' — in other words, whether it should be 'It is I' or 'It is me'. He acknowledged 'I' as more pedantically correct, but came down ultimately in favour of the more colloquial 'me' as a matter of usage, augmented by an emphatic quality in the latter, largely influenced by French usage - C'est moi.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 07:07 AM

That should of course have read 'Fowler had much to say' — and I should perhaps have added the ref in his 'Modern English Usage'.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 07:39 AM

I posted the following on the 'three chord trick' thread above the line in response to a post about 'dischords' -

===A linguistic or semantic oddity BTW — there is actually no such thing as a 'dischord'.
For some reason, tho a harmonious combination of sounds is called a 'chord', an unharmonious one is called a 'discord', without the 'h'.
Why? Who knows! — that's just English for you; go down to the 'except/accept' thread below the line for many more such examples. But I have carefully checked two dictionaries [Chambers & COED] which both confirm what I say.===

I reproduce it here, as this seems to be the appropriate thread to ask whether anyone can think of any explanation for this anomaly.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 01:16 PM

Usage rules.

Now why does that usage of 'rules' seem odd to me?

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Genie
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 01:22 PM

MtheGM, I accept that some expressions such as "C'est moi," "It's me," "It's him," have become so common (pretty standard usage, in fact) that the grammatically correct forms may sound strange."   But if a person would never say "Give it to me" or "Me ate the pie," it makes no sense for that person to say "Give it to my husband and I" or "Me and my wife ate the pie."
I don't know why so many people seem to lose their inner sense of grammar when you stick a conjuction like "and" or "or" into the subject or object of a sentence.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 02:02 PM

Genie — I agree totally with this post of yours. "Between you & I" has driven me apeshit from earliest days. It is just in the apposition to the verb 'to be' that I find the use of 'me' preferable to 'I, as did Fowler. Otherwise I agree with you absolutely.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 04:24 PM

After reading a number of threads the last few days, I have to add to my original list: "cite" and "site"...and even "sight" ...ALL used to refer to a place on the WWW. (not the 'internet', which strictly means only email, newsgroups and a couple other arcane things.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Rowan
Date: 22 Dec 09 - 06:21 PM

Genie wrote
I thought Rowan was being sarcastic here:

"All this discussion of grammar is quite unique, you know, and leaves me disinterested, Now, how can I convey the usual stuffup between imply and infer?"

Apologies, Genie.
It was just my play with words, trying to introduce a couple of infelicities. No sarcasm was intended or implied and I'm sorry you inferred its existence.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Genie
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 11:05 AM

Rowan, I should have said "facetious," not "sarcastic."   I took it as good-natured snark. ;D

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 09:48 PM

"For some reason, tho a harmonious combination of sounds is called a 'chord', an unharmonious one is called a 'discord', without the 'h'.
Why?"

Someone told the dictionary people to "get the aitch outta there!"

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: s&r
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 04:47 AM

Surely the WWW is part of the internet. The internet is the whole network: the WWW relies on its existence to operate.

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 10:36 AM

Another endemic confoozlement that drives me crazy(er) is the misuse of:

"Stanch" and "Staunch".

"Stanch" is a verb, to stop the flow of a liquid (especially blood).

"Staunch" is an adjective: Steady in principle, loyalty, adherence. etc. As in a staunch friend, a staunch patriot, a staunch Republican.

As, "When I was wounded, my staunch friend Joe rushed to stanch the bleeding."

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: TheSnail
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 10:52 AM

MtheGM

a harmonious combination of sounds is called a 'chord', an unharmonious one is called a 'discord'

I don't think there is actually anything in the definition of a chord to say it has to be harmonious. A harmonious one is called a concord.

Doesn't explain the spelling though.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 11:15 AM

"The terms Internet and World Wide Web are often used in everyday speech without much distinction. However, the Internet and the World Wide Web are not one and the same. The Internet is a global data communications system. It is a hardware and software infrastructure that provides connectivity between computers. In contrast, the Web is one of the services communicated via the Internet. It is a collection of interconnected documents and other resources, linked by hyperlinks and URLs.[1] The term the Internet, when referring to the Internet, has traditionally been treated as a proper noun and written with an initial capital letter. There is a trend to regard it as a generic term or common noun and thus write it as "the internet", without the capital."

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: s&r
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 12:31 PM

Like I said except for the capital

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: bobad
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 12:44 PM

In regard to "stanch" and "staunch" most dictionaries give "staunch" as a variant of "stanch". This from the Free Dictionary:

Verb 1.staunch - stop the flow of a liquid; "staunch the blood flow"; "stem the tide"
stanch, stem, haltcheck - arrest the motion (of something) abruptly; "He checked the flow of water by shutting off the main valve"

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: s&r
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 12:46 PM

The odd one out seems to be chord not discord. Discord comes from the Latin discordare.

Various sources regard "chord" as a shortened form of "accord" with the spelling influenced by chorda (Lat) and Khorde (Gk) meaning string.

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 12:57 PM

re: internet/WWW -- all I meant was that the words are not interchangeable, and that saying "I looked it up "on the internet" is not really correct usage. Sadly, because saying "World Wide Web", or even WWW, is more work, 'internet' is quickly becoming standard usage and only nerds will remember what the relation is.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 01:22 PM

Actually, 'WWW' takes much longer to say than 'WorldWideWeb' — absurd when it is the abbreviation. I always say 'wer-wer-wer', as one pronounced W when first learning to read.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 03:03 PM

OED
Staunch, stanch .... "The spelling staunch and the associated pronunciation are in British use much the the more common for the adj, while for the related verb the form stanch is preferred.
For the related verb the form stanch is preferred."

Webster's Collegiate 1995
1 staunch, stanch var 2 staunch Defined as the adjective.

1 stanch vt
2 stanch var. of staunch