BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 03:24 PM

"keep me appraised of the outcome" . Keep me apprised, please!

"Appraised" has to do with ascertaining the value of a good. "Apprised" has to do with notification or communication regarding changes in events.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 03:32 PM

Ekcetraaaaaaaaar when they mean etc!

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 03:33 PM

"Also, someone mentioned the ellipse (or it it "ellipsis?")"

Yes, Genie..'twas I. And I use it both correctly and incorrectly. It has become sort of an identifying aspect of my posts.

Extra dots, used incorrectly, are my way of 'suggesting' that there was more to say, or that there was a pause in my thoughts as I was typing. I use any number of such things, including HTML bold, italics, underlining, asterisks, etc., to try to make typing 'sound' like speaking. It is an exercise in attempting to add flavor to dull sentences and avoid some of the misunderstandings that can arise.

Just a 'literary device' like ee cummings used.

This medium is only a few years old now, and it definitely has its flaws. I will NOT give in and resort to txt mssg format.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 03:45 PM

The three dots can be used as more than merely the ellipsis ... as Bill said, to suggest ongoing thought, a sort of alternative to &c. Centralised ··· they can stand in for a - or a — ···

And textspeke a mst usfl innovtn, btw, IMO... ··· - — !!!

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Genie
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 04:05 PM

"Hoity- toity" and "hoi polloi" are pretty much opposite in meaning, but at least since The Lovin' Spoonful used "hoi polloi" (apparently) as a reference to the clientele at an upscale resort ("Jug Band Music"), I've seen that term used more and more - by people who should know better - to refer to the upper classes.


Oh, and, GUEST,weerover, you said:
"Actually, the principal definition of "ensure" is to make sure, and "insure" can also have this meaning."

Which reminds me of another often mixed-up pair of homophones:

"The principle rule to apply in science is the principal of parsimony."

Then there's this one:

"Godiva flaunted the law by flouting her unclad charms in public."

"

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 04:07 PM

Somebody way upstairs there (Jim Dixon?) wuz mentioning that there wuz a diffruns between forgo and forego. (OK, I'll forgo the dialect). Now who says I am wrong? I damn well ain't, or my Oxford (dictionary, not shoe) is wrong.

The entry (skipping origins and pronounciations)-
forgo, forego
1. to go away, go past, pass away
2. to go by, pass over, to leave alone or undone, neglect, overlook, slight
3. to avoid, elude. b. to overreach, deceive
4. to go from, forsake, leave
5. to abstain or refrain from
6. to abstain from, go without, deny to oneself; to let go or pass, omit to take or use; to give up, part with, relinquish, renounce, resign.
7. to go without (compulsorily), to be without; to miss, lack. b. to let go (involuntarily), lose, forfeit
8. (only in pa pple): exhausted with going, wearied, faint. also faint with emotion

Forgoer, one who forgos (something); 1828 Webster, foregoer one who forbears to enjoy; foregone, forborne to be possessed or enjoyed.

Got all that??

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 04:14 PM

I think I use the ellipsis even more than Bill............Actually I think I use the pseudo or faux ellipsis. Matter of fact I can't seem to write without it. If you're trying to impart the way you might phrase things in conversation, those damn dots are invaluable. Really............and I never use them in the 3 and 6 series as I should. What I'm trying to do is give a sense of my speech pattern which involves both long pauses..........................and, uh, well................................even longer ones I guess.........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 04:16 PM

...and then there's foreplay...

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Genie
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 04:19 PM

[[MtheGM:

The three dots can be used as more than merely the ellipsis ... ··· they can stand in for a - or a — ]]

If that is the position taken by them English rule maker-uppers, I fear pretty serious consequences in terms of people's words being misunderstood or even deliberately used to deceive.

If a scientist says "Global warming is not a hoax. It is probably not only man-made but also very serious or potentially catastrophic," and s/he is "quoted" in an ad or article thus:

"Global warming is ... a hoax. It is probably not ...man-made ... or potentially catastrophic,"

If readers think those ellipses indicate mere pauses in thought, not the omission of parts of the quotation, well ...

I think the ellipsis serves an extremely important communication function and needs its own distinctive punctuation indicator. As with the question mark, sometimes the punctuation can be the only key to understanding the sentence.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Genie
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 04:23 PM

Art, when I lived in Tronna (the capitol of Ontario), I was told that a Newfie once was sued by his wife for divorce because when he asked for foreplay, he invited another couple. ; D

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 04:38 PM

Some notes in clarification (?)
Merriam Webster Collegiate-
ensure....
"synensure, insure, assure, secure mean to make a thing or person sure. ensure, insure and assure are interchangable in many contexts where they indicate the making certain or inevitable of an outcome, but insure sometimes stresses the taking of necessary measures beforehand and assure distinctly implies the removal of doubt and suspense from a person's mind. secure implies action taken to guard against attack or loss."

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Genie
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 04:41 PM

Spaw: [[I think I use the ellipsis even more than Bill............Actually I think I use the pseudo or faux ellipsis. Matter of fact I can't seem to write without it. If you're trying to impart the way you might phrase things in conversation, those damn dots are invaluable. Really............and I never use them in the 3 and 6 series as I should. What I'm trying to do is give a sense of my speech pattern which involves both long pauses..........................and, uh, well................................even longer ones I guess.........]]

Spaw, you're not using ellipses. The ellipsis as a punctuation mark has exactly 3 dots.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 04:53 PM

Genie - no, I was simply describing my own practice re dots &c ··· I don't think there is an actual rule — indeed ... I am pretty sure there isn't - so I just go along merrily scattering them decoratively — just as the spirit do move me .·.·.·. -=-—

Seriously — I think one can generally tell when they are used elliptically &/or when they suggest a sort of mental aposiopesis.

Agree absolutely with you re 'flout' & 'flaunt' - the confusion that above all others fills me with the Aaaaaaarrrrrrrrrggggghhhhh-factor ...

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 05:02 PM

Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary:

Ellipsis. 1. the omission of one or more words that are obviously understood but must be supplied to make a construction grammatically complete. b. a sudden leap from one topic to another.
2: marks or a mark (as ... or *** or-).

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 05:16 PM

If I were writing a serious non-fiction book, I would write and edit quite carefully. In this strange joint, I play fast & loose with many rules.

There is, in fact, an actual standard character for ellipsis. alt+0133 on a Windows machine.
… (see?) as opposed to
...

(hard to tell apart except when side by side)

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 05:31 PM

Webster's gives a second meaning for flaunt- 2. to treat contemptuously. This brings up flout, which means "To treat with contemptuous disregard."

"'Tis a puzzlement."

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 05:40 PM

ellipsis in HTML … & + # + 133;

There is a tendency in printed material to standardize on the three dots.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 05:41 PM

& !!

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 06:03 PM

So long as you don't say "the hoi polloi". ("Hoi" means "the".)

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Genie
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 06:13 PM

Oy! that would be repetitive AND redundant!

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 06:13 PM

Reminds me of duplications seen in the southwest (U. S.), like "The La Fonda Hotel."
Sometimes hard to avoid.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Genie
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 06:31 PM

If you use a typewriter and/or don't have fancy symbols (or cymbals) at your fingertips, you make the ellipse by putting three periods (dots) next to each other: "..." not ". . ." .


Q, Merriam-Webster's online dictionary is more comprehensive in its definition of "ellipsis":

1 a : the omission of one or more words that are obviously understood but that must be supplied to make a construction grammatically complete
1 b : a sudden leap from one topic to another

2 : marks or a mark (as …) indicating an omission (as of words) or a pause

The second meaning is important, as the ellipse often indicates that portions of the text have been omitted, not because they are "obviously understood," but because they are unnecessary or irrelevant to the point or purpose of the quotation.   

This is where misinterpreting the "..." as a mere pause in the thought can be extremely misleading. If readers don't recognize that portions of the report or argument have been skipped over, they may erroneously think that they've read the whole report or argument (or poem) and all the information they need to judge its value or validity.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 06:35 PM

In the beginning God ......erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 06:39 PM

sign in restaurant:

**Sliced beef sandwich "with au jus gravy"**

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 07:12 PM

Q - English dicts do NOT include that meaning of 'flaunt' — I have just checked my Chambers. If it is in Websters it is clearly a purely Americam usage: & I cannot help but feel that it might have caught on as constant misuse made it accepted as standard.

...As happened in US with 'careen', which means to turn a boat over to scrape its bottom; but in US it was so frequently used mistakenly as a synonym for 'career', in sense of dash about in uncontrolled manner, that it appears to have become standard usage — BUT NOT OVER HERE!

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 07:15 PM

Just goes to show that the Brits are no better at dictionaries than the Yanks are. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 07:26 PM

Dictionaries normally only record written usages. I learnt "skeuomorph" in 1966, and the firsy dictionary I saw it in was Chambers Dictionary 8th edition (1993).

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 07:30 PM

I never heard 'career' used that way until a few years ago on Mudcat: it was always 'careen'.

It may be that another use of career, as a noun meaning "The particular occupation for which you are trained" or "The general progression of your working or professional life" made it too confusing. When I was in high school, we had "career day", and no one went dashing down the halls at high speed!

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 07:31 PM

I know Genie. I think what I shall do is give the dots a name of their own.


Florp: Any number of dots indicating a short pause, perhaps to think

Florp ER: A longer version of the standard florp, Extended Release sorta'.................


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 07:32 PM

True to that. We have a word used I think exclusively in Canada (west and north). I got in touch with the folks at the OED and they said exactly that: written usage only.

The word is 'link'--as in "I trapped a link today." It's a back formation of the word 'lynx' which is used that way as both singular and plural. Hence, someone hearing it way back must have thought, 'Hey, if he trapped two lynx then he must have trapped one link' in the singular. Interesting language we all have.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 07:34 PM

Don't know how I screwed that up. My post was in reference to a previous post in which the writer said that dictionary people go by written/published usage before entering words in the dictionaries.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 07:41 PM

Ave jest pit vice true a spiel chukka an vice is watt ah goad owt

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 07:44 PM

Yeah. What he said.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 07:57 PM

Q, my copy of Webster (New World College Dictionary, 3d Ed., 1996) omits that definition of "flaunt". Oh, and the online version of the Compact OED includes this definition for CAREEN: "move in an uncontrolled way; career".

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Genie
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 08:28 PM

Spaw, I love your idea! English grammarians would accept "..." ONLY as an ellipsis. All other uses of a series of dots as subtitutes for commas, periods, dashes, semicolons, parentheses, etc., would be called "florps" and would have to have MORE THAN three -- preferably 5 or more -- dots! That'd solve it!



As for Webster's accepting "flaunt" as a synonym for "flout," the online Merriam-Websters does, but it's obviously just reporting on usage. That dictionary acknowledges that "although this usage [of transitive sense 2] "... undoubtedly arose from confusion with flout, the contexts in which it appears cannot be called substandard. ... " (They go on to cite a couple of pretty well respected texts in which that usage occurs.)

< href-="http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/flaunt">http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/flaunt

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Genie
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 08:31 PM

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Genie
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 08:34 PM

Another misuse that's become so common, even among those who, one would think, are paid to know better is "suspicious" used to mean "suspect."

E.g., "The green van that was seen leaving the parking lot looked suspicious."

I've never known vehicles to be suspicious -- or to have any attitudes, thoughts or feelings, for that matter.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 08:41 PM

M theGM- Wrong. The Oxford English Dictionary has entries on flaunt, both sb and v.
I have extracted pieces of the entries, some of which are long.
Chambers, the little schoolboy dictionary, seems to be somewhat incomplete.
flaunt
sb 1. The action or habit of flaunting or making a display.
2. something used to make a show, showy dress, finery.
flaunt verb.
1. Of plumes or banners. To wave gaily or proudly, ....
2. Of persons. To walk or move about so as to display one's finery.....; to obtrude oneself boastfully, impudently or defiantly, .... of things, to be extravagantly gaudy, ....
3. trans. to display ostentatiously; to flourish, parade, show off.

So there, flaunt-a-flaunt! (yes, that is in Oxford as well).

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 08:52 PM

Now, the one that drives ME absolutely around the bend is the use (mostly in the past ten or fifteen years) of 'decimate' as a synonym for 'devastate'. Damn it, it means reduce by 10 percent, and I don't care what ANY dictionary says!

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 09:15 PM

An ellipsis also is a conical section.

Catspaw, have you tried using an ellipsograph to describe florps?
(Trademark that word before it gets stolen).

eppyfanny!
I foresee* a whole nother art form here to supplant them old cubists.
Florpism? (*forsee or foirsee if Scottish, take yer cherce). Conical sections with dotted entrails and testicles flaunt-a-flaunt

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 09:51 PM

Another pet peeve of mine is the misuse of "epicenter", where what is intended is simply "center".

As in

"Hollywood is the epicenter of the American film industry."

No, that would be saying that the center of the American film industry is underground, below Hollywood. "Epicenter" is a technical term in earthquake science, meaning that spot on the surface of the earth over the actual center of action of an earthquake, possibly miles down.

I hear this mistaken usage all the time in radio news broadcasts, even on NPR, and I first cringe and then audibly argue with the radio announcer.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 10:18 PM

I agree, Dave. Unfortunately Webster's Dictionary has picked up the word, as also meaning center, the example "epicenter of the world of finance."

(Now I know some posting here who wish there was an earthquake zone or magma chamber beneath those centers of finance)

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Rowan
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 10:38 PM

All this discussion of grammar is quite unique, you know, and leaves me disinterested, Now, how can I convey the usual stuffup between imply and infer?

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 10:46 PM

Perhaps you need something even more unique....................or at least more perfect.

Spaw (note the usage of the florp)

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 10:50 PM

He implied, and as a result of his implication I inferred that the guy with a gun wasn't very nice.

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Rowan
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 10:55 PM

Yeah, Spaw. I was thinking that an ellipse was the locus of a point that moved around two other points and kept constant the sum of its distances from them, while the circle was its specially unique (and perfect?) version where the locus was around two points whose position coincided.

Is such materiel of interest, or is everyone still disinterested?

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Rowan
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 11:01 PM

He implied, and as a result of his implication I inferred that the guy with a gun wasn't very nice.

True, 999. Having had a little radio operation experience, I've often tried the "I, the transmitter, imply; you, the receiver, infer." with less than perfect success. And it doesn't help beginners that so many dictionaries list common usage while seekers of 'truth' use them as authorities.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: JennieG
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 11:05 PM

I would like to know who decided that a meeting between two opposing teams, for the purpose of playing a game with a ball, has become a 'clash' when it used to be a 'match'?

Cheers
JennieG

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: Rowan
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 11:08 PM

Jennie, It's only a game! It's only a match when the two teams are evenly matched.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: except/accept- insure/ensure,,,etc.
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Dec 09 - 11:12 PM

I recall that Nero Wolfe--the fictional detective created by Rex Stout--was burning "Webster's Third International Dictionary" page by page because it said one could use imply and infer interchangeably. Wolfe's assistant, Archie Goodwin, stated that he'd heard Wolfe make remarks about book burners. Wolfe replied, "I am neither a government nor a committee of censors. I paid for this book, have read it and found it to be offensive to the English language. So, I am burning it." And with that, he continued on with his task. I always got a kick outta that.