BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?

Subject: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: Janie
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 12:47 AM

Ok guys (and maybe a few gals,) here is your chance to impress a ditzy blond with your guy knowledge.

I'm looking at gas generators (actually, for my parents.) They range in price from about $450 to a couple of thousand dollars and I understand absolutely nothing about the specs. My elderly and infirm parents got home today after a 4 day power outage due to the recent east coast winter storm. They are not resilient as they once were. My ex-brother-in-law (sister deceased) and his wife hosted them for a couple of days, but Ma & Pa couldn't tolerate the 8 dogs and moved to a motel, which they can ill afford, until the power was restored this morning. Significant power outages occur every couple of years. They live in a 3000 sq. foot house with baseboard hot water heat. The boiler is gas-fired, as is the hot water tank, but the controls are electric, so no electricity=no heat. All appliances are electric.    The 3500 square feet are divided in half between a completely finished basement with galley kitchen inhabited by my no-count nephew and the first and main floor with the main kitchen, bedrooms and living area where my parents stay. Either floor is entirely livable, can be closed off from the other, and have separate thermostats. (the 1st floor has two thermostats, one in the rear hall that controls the heat in the bedrooms, and another that controls heat in the kitchen and living room, but these two areas can not be closed off from one another. How much generator is necessary for them to supply either the basement or the 1st floor with heat and enough power to run the cookstove, both refrigerators and the freezer. (or is that the wrong question?)

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: open mike
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 01:17 AM

i had a smallish honda generator...which was quiet,
and it had an auxilliary fuel tank made from a boat
fuel tank, so it could run an extra long time before
needing to be re-fuelled. I do not know how to calculate
size needed, but the best thing to do is convert as
much as possible to propane...cookstove, water heater,
fridge and freezer, and also heat with wood, that way
the only electricity you need is for lights, and such.

Is there also a water pump needed, or do they have
water supplied by a utility company or gravity flow?

I would think that if they can isolate part of the
house that would be more efficient...also you need
to dis-connect the main power line if you run a
generator..so the power does not feed back into the
grid.

some systems are wired so that they come on automatically.

some generators are diesel, and these are more heavy
duty and provide more power for larger homes...

i remember when we used alternate power, for instance,
it was not possible to use washing machine and t.v.
at the same time, for instance. or power tools
and computers...or vacuum cleaner.

this is different than generator, this was solar panels
with an inverter, but the same principal in that the
available energy is finite.

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: Janie
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 01:40 AM

No water pump needed. This is a convential home in a convential suburban area occupied by a conventional "frail elderly" couple in their early and mid-eighties. No heart disease, etc., but signifcant pain and arthritis related mobility issues. Nephew is capable of filling generator and starting it as needed, but otherwise worthless.

I am seeking some guidance on what is the minimal generator to meet their needs during infrequent but not rare power outages of 3 to 5 days duration. They do not do well away from home, and staying in motels is doable, but has financial repercussions. Sister and I both live 300+ miles away from them. When younger and in better health, they could cope quite well when something like this occurred. That is no longer the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: Janie
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 01:52 AM

errr...conventional....

I simply do not have the knowledge and background to understand what the differences and specificaions on all the different generators signify.. It is all greek to me. Neither they or I can afford a $1500 generator and if that is what is required there is no point in exploring the options for a generator further. However, if a $500 generator could meet their needs, between them and me, it would be worth it for the peace of mind it would bring to all of us.

But the price difference may well be about more than power generated. It may have to do with whether the generator can be hooked up to a conventionally wired home built in the mid 60's. I'm too ignorant to know or to figure it out from the info provided on the Lowe's Home Improvement Website for each generator.

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: gnu
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 05:50 AM

Step #1... get three quotes on the electrical work before even talking generators.

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: GUEST,Wayne, near Baltimore
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 05:53 AM

Those little Honda generators are good for perhaps your refrigerator and some lights. The kind of load you describe would require a more elaborate and expensive system that includes a transfer switch that disconnects the incoming line and puts the load on the generator. I suggest an Assisted Living arrangement and selling the house and booting the nephew out. 3500 square feet is too much house for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: Janie
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 06:26 AM

Oh. thanks Gnu. Didn't realize some electrical work would need done for the house to accept a generator.

And thanks Wayne. Sounding like what would be needed is out of my/our price range. (And we have been trying for 2 years now to convince them they need out of that house, and the nephew needs to grow up and get gone.)

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: gnu
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 06:57 AM

As Wayne says, you have to be able to separate the the existing panel from the main entrance (existing panel) so that you don't backfeed to the utility. Anyone working on the utility lines is in peril.

Essentially, you feed a second panel (emergency panel) which feeds the things you want powered by the generator. When power is out, you disconnect the emergency panel from the existing panel. You also need to feed the emergency panel from the generator and, depending on proximity, just the wire and plugs can be rather expensive.

However, getting quotes only costs you time.

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 08:05 AM

Sounds to me like they are going to need around 7500 KW with around 8500 KW surge... That oughtta do everything, maybe with the exception of the stove if alot of other stuff is going at the same time... The biggies are not a factor: electric baseboard, water pump, water heater... That is good...

But here's the bad news... Well, kinda... The generator needs to we hard wired into your parent's circuit breaker (fuse) panel and needs to go thru a box that has "teeter-totter" switch in it so that only "line" voltage (from the electric company) of generator voltage goess into the panel... This is a must or yer going to end up with fire hazzardous extension cords all over the place or your going to end up fryin' your new generator when the line voltage come back...

Hard wiring is going to involve an electrican (licensed) because the power company is going to have to shut off current while this is being done... There is one exception to this... Some folks have a main breaker between the pole and the panel... It they have a mian breaker and can shut it off then they can put the teeter-totter switch box in with an unlicensed electrican...

If you need anymore advice on this one, Janie, PM me with yer phone number and I'll call ya'...

B~ (unlicensed electrican)

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 08:29 AM

BTW, Janie... These generators are generally called "whole house generators" *except* they are very expensive when you see them at the box stores or order them from like Northern Tool & Hydrolics... Your parents don't need that much generator so they don't need a whole house generator... A 7500 KW should be fine and be in the $1200 range... Make sure it has a Honda engine... Lots of differnt generator manufactureres use Honda engines so that shouldn't be to hard to find...

The Box will be around $100... They will need X number of feet of 6/3/wg (with ground) or 6/2/wg depending on the generator to run from the generator to the teeter-totter box which ain't cheap... I think that 6/2/wg will probably do just fine... That will give you two hots (220 Volts) and a neutral... Ask your electrican about local codes on "standby emergency generator" wiring before you buy...

Oh, an honest electrican should be able to do the entire job (labor only) for around $400...

There... Now my mind is completely emptied out on the issue...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: gnu
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 09:29 AM

I guess our laws are different up North. Here you need positive isolation... a toggle will not pass inspection.

The 6500 W genie I have will power the forced air furnace (or air conditioners) two fridges, freezer, microwave, all lights and TV stuff. The genie is in the garage and the cable I plug into an exterior wall socket is heavy.

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 09:49 AM

To heck with those big multi-thousand dollar generators! Get one of the small portable Hondas. Then, put it in the trunk of another Honda, like an Accord, and move Mom and Dad to someplace where that little generator is adequate, like southern Georgia.

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 09:58 AM

Most US 1960s era homes were wired with what's called "100 Amp" service, although that's about when "150 Amp" began to be used fairly often and "200 Amp" might be wired for a larger home.

A "100 Amp" service means that the line coming into the house can supply up to 100 Amperes at 220 Volts, or a maximum total of about 22 KW (22,000 W) to what's plugged in inside.

For a true "standby generator" this is what you'd need to just "flip a switch" and continue business as usual when the utility line goes down.

In most places, construction codes would require that the generator be placed on a separate (usually concrete) "pad" outside the house, with appropriate fuel storage/connections.

This is the $15,000 - $25,000 installation, but is almost certainly more than needed.

ANY GENERATOR SYSTEM MUST BE ISOLATED from the outside power company connection any time the generator is used. Building codes vary, but in many places an "automatic switch" (interlock) is required that disconnects the house COMPLETELY from the outside power lines before the generator can be started. For a more modest "emergency generator" you may be able to disconnect from the line just by flipping a "master breaker" off, but you will need to check on local codes to be sure that you provide an acceptable (and reliable) "disconnect" for any system you install. If you use a "manual" disconnect, you need to be certain that anyone who might try to turn on your generator will follow the instructions correctly every time.

To get an idea of how large a generator you need, you really need to search out the "ratings plates" on all of the things that you need to keep running. Most of the things you've named will be 120 Volt devices, so you can just add up the "Ampere" ratings from all the rating plates, multiply the total Amps by 120, and you'll have the "watts" you need.

The $300 to $500 generators generally run from around 2,000 Watt (2 KW) up to about 7,500 Watt (7.5 KW). One of these should be sufficient to keep the heating systems running, and at the top end might also run the refrigerator and freezers; but you'll need to add up the amps for the devices you consider "necessary" in order to know what you really need.

Most electric stoves are 220 Volt 50 Amp devices (11 KW) so you're unlikely to be able to run one on any modestly priced generator. Perhaps a propane "grill" on the patio would be an option(?).

With home wiring, an additional problem you'll have will be turning OFF the things you don't need to run during the outage. With luck, the essential devices will be on separate breakers, so once the breaker panel is disconnected from the outside world, if that breaker panel is connected to the generator, you can just turn off all the breakers that aren't needed. The burden here is knowing which ones have to be left on. Installing a separate "emergency panel" that connects only to the essential devices (and to the generator) would be a preferred solution; but may be somewhat expensive and may require some re-wiring, of the existing panel and of the critical circuits, to permit isolation of the circuits you need.

It should be noted that small electric generators are not particularly efficient; and fuel costs alone to keep one running continuously for a few days may come close to the cost of a motel if you can find a "budget" motel that can be relied on. Putting the purchase and installation cost into a separate "emergency" bank account to pay the motel bills might be a viable option.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: bubblyrat
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 10:08 AM

Souds like this house is big enough for ALL of you to live in !! Wouldn't that make sense ?? Then you could help to look after Ma & Pa like they looked after you when you were younger ; people all over the world have lived like this for countless millenia !

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 10:40 AM

I've only researched generators enough to know there a LOT of caveats...

Last December during our ice storm power outage where most of the state was without power for almost two weeks, there was, of course, a run on generators at Sears (where I work, not for Sears, but for a licensed business). In the break room at lunch I talked several times to the men who were not only experienced in selling the generators, but usually had electrical or other backgrounds. None of them own a generator or will have one in their house -- for safety reasons.

That being said, it would have been nice to have had auxiliary power for our pump and freezer. We heat primarily with wood and some cooking can be done on the woodstove. We also have a composting toilet, so that's not a problem. Batteries took care of lighting & radio needs (though after a week, most sized batteries were unavailable). There are ways to recharge cell phone batteries. Being without a computer was the major pain -- and no running water. Gallon jugs from the store and I had my hair washed at the stylist's.

Just be fully informed before you buy and install.

Linn

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: Genie
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 11:01 AM

Very interesting, informative discussion, folks.

And to think, when I read the thread title, I thought it was about Spaw! *g*

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: gnu
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 11:34 AM

Genie... heheheee.

BTW, if anyone gets a genie which won't run everything at full load (no house needs one that big), ALWAYS bring the equipment back on in sequence. NEVER allow all of it to start at the same time or you'll trip the genie out. A lot of quip draw 2 to 3 times the operating amperage on startup. Lights and furnace and wait until heat delivery has begun. Then, ONE fridge... then, ONE freezer... etc

Noise is also a consideration. Hondas run quiet but are expensive.

Fuel consumption is also a consideration. Hondas come with "auto-throttle" but... and the newest Hondas come with eco-throttle BUT...

Great discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: gnu
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 11:45 AM

By the way... if I had to do it all again, having a forced air oil fired furnace, I would get an oil stove (or even two) and a smaller generator and to heck with an emergency panel. Now, it would be "fun" running up certain quip by heavy duty "extension cords", but it would also be a heck of a lot cheaper.

Hmmm... I had better give an example... run the freezer until it cycles and unplug it. It's good for at least 12 hours if it's over half full. Of course, here, I have a HUGE freezer that doesn't need power for 4 months a year. It's called a garage.

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: kendall
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 11:56 AM

Whatever you decide to do, get a qualified electrician to rig it. Otherwise you could get hurt, bad or even killed.

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: gnu
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 01:09 PM

Or "worse"... kill someone else and end up paying for it in concience and wallet.

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: open mike
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 05:40 PM

if it is "mounted" outside, it will need to be
insulated -- mainy to keep from irritating neighbors...
as the sound is bothersome..even from the quite ones...
and also the fumes need to be vented...

it does sound like a huge house..

if the water pipes do not stay warm (above freezing)
you will have other problems,,easy to solve with
gravity flow h20-just leave it running to prevent freeze.

not so practical when water costs $

they do make an anti freeze that is non toxic for
cabins, r.v. and other pipes to protect in winter.

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: GUEST,Ebbie, away from home, house/dog sitting
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 05:50 PM

In Alaska there are many generators in use. As many 'off-the road-' homes there are, that is not surprising, of course.

My first summer up here I worked at a wilderness lodge,. We had two diesel generators, a large one and a smaller. We usually used only one with the other for backup. We ran the generator an hour and a half in a 24-hour period.   That provided juice for topping up two freezers that had huge chunks of iceberg in them that we gathered weekly from a glacier -front lake, lights (Of course summer days in Alaska don't require much artificial light) , but not for cooking (we had a kerosene cookstove) or hot water (instead of a water heater we had an on-demand hot water system).

I just realized that that experience doesn't help in your parents' situation. For one thing, there was no alternate electrical system in place.

Good luck, Janie. It's never easy, is it. What solution(s) do your parents fancy?

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 05:56 PM

No, gn-zer, I am not talkin' about a toogle... I am talking about a teeter-totter switch that allows either line voltage or generator voltage that absolutely will not allow them to mix... It's one or the other but never both... I have used them with Harry Homeowners 7500 KW generators and they are fool proof and safe...

Okay, this is budget electricity but it works and, at least in Virginia and Wes Ginny, is legal in terms of code...

Or one can throw away the big bucks and do it John's way with a pad and a whole house generator... Most folks don't have an extra $15,000 to throw away for a couple days a years of having the coffeeemaker work and the lights come on...

My way??? $2000 includes 7500 KW generator, divertor switch and box, wire, the elctrican and still have a few bucksw left over for a few gallons of gas...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: gnu
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 06:15 PM

Sorry Bobert... I misunderstood.

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 06:26 PM

That's okay, gn-zer... Yer so excited about yer new truck that yer understanderator ain't understaneratin' too good... Plus, it's 'lectricity, somethin' that hillbillies ain't 'sposed to know nuthin' about but I done half blowed myself up so many times that I jus' thought that maybe I should get learnt up on the stuff... Not that I ain't goin' get half blowed up again, mind you, but not on wirin' a generator into a panel box...

Maybe one day I'll tell ya' about the time that I had been drenkin' and wondered what would happen if I touched the live bus bar with a screwdriver with a "insulated" handle... Wow!!! No, maybe the time I was changin' out a battery in an old car and wondered what would happen if my weddin' ring accidently became part of the circuit between the + and - posts... Eeeowwwwwwwww!!! Or the time....

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: gnu
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 06:32 PM

I don't trust nuthin what I can't see. My knowledge of lectricity is scuffin my feet on the carpet and touchin my brother's ear or rubbin a balloon on my... well, that was before I went bald.

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 06:56 PM

Our "solution" is just to move into the camper (in the back yard) if there's an extended power outage. Built in propane heat and refrigeration. Battery power will last a couple of days and it's possible to recharge from the tow vehicle, although a generator would be nice. AC power is needed to run the microwave or the air conditioner; but we could get by without those for a while.

Since the camper is designed to "plug in" to a single outlet, thre's no problem with isolating from the power grid and connecting a generator is trivially simple. A 3,500 watt (3.5 KW) generator would run the microwave or the air conditioner; but not both at the same time. A 5 KW would likely be sufficient for both at the same time.

The cost of owning a comfortable unit "just for emergencies" probably isn't realistic; but if someone has one - even just nearby - it could be a quicky solution for the people's comfort^*.

^* "Comfort" probably is a euphemism for anyone not accustomed to camping on wheels. After living in ours for a couple of months for our recent move I'm not sure I could get LiK back into it for any thing short of a major disaster, although the cats and I would be comfy enough.

Unfortunately, this doesn't solve the problem of protecting the house water systems from freezing or keeping refrigerator and freezers in the house running. There's a separate thread with some good links for shutting down to leave a house for short times, but it can be a fairly good piece of work to actually do a "winter shutdown" that will protect things without some auxiliary power.

The freezers and refrigerators could be unplugged from the house wiring system and plugged directly into the generator. The heating/water systems would require a safe way to disconnect the "hard-wired" connection to plug in, but separating out a single circuit (fans and thermostats?) might not be terribly expensive.

If a smaller generator is used, the systems/appliances could probably be run one-at-a-time to keep things safe, since they'd only need to run for a few hours each during a day; but this would require someone to unplug and plug extension cords, or a really heavy-duty switch panel attached to the generator. If device swapping is done efficiently, your generator only needs to be large enough for the "largest device" that needs to be cycled in and out.

If you decide to use the "extension cord" method, you should be careful about using cords appropriate for the loads. Although the hardware shops sell AWG16 cords 100 feet long, I don't consider those adquate for much more than a small weedwhacker. To run a refrigerator at 100 feet you need, as an absolute minimum, at least an AWG12 cord (15A 110 VAC) and to be really safe - especially in variable weather - I use AWG10 to plug in the camper (20A 110 VAC). AWG10 cords are about the diameter of a garden hose and run a little more than $1/foot (on sale?). You likely will want more than one. A 100 ft AWG10 "contractor" cord is about 30 pounds to lug about. Good connectors require some strength to connect and disconnect properly, and may be a problem for elders (like me).

A suitable "get-by" system is a compromise between convenience and the maintenance and tending required while it's being used. You'll need some serious study of what you actually need and quite probably some advice from knowledgeable persons who can take a fairly detailed look at the house wiring setup you have. The help you need should be fairly readily available, but it will take some time to dig it all out and make the plan.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: Janie
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 08:21 PM

Thanks for all the really good information. I'm going to print this thread out and take it with me when I head home for Christmas tomorrow.

After reading through it, I think that what would be required is not financially feasible. All of this information has saved me hours and days of research that I still would not have been able to interpret. I have toyed with the idea of a generator myself since leaving spouse and all the gear that made it possible for us to get through major winter power outages sans generator. (Every 4-6 years we get a major ice storm that has left us without power for 7-10 days.   It is pretty clear it would be more cost effective for me to reaquire much of the camping gear, hurricane lanterns, cold weather sleeping bags, etc., as well as a propane or kerosene heater that could keep one room warm enough.

Ebbie, I think my parents are still a little stunned at what an ordeal this 4 day stint was for them. Their preferred solution is to not have the power get knocked out for more than 24 hours. Mom is quite realistic about the inappropriateness of that big house, and perfectly willing to give nephew the boot. Dad, who is actually in much more frail condition than Mom, is completely unrealistic and resistant.   

I just cut and pasted to iPages a long post that I realize is fodder for a whole different thread not related to generators, but to one or several topics about aging, family, the impact of the financial downturn on folks whose retirement income and savings were already quite modest, the sandwich generation and/or what happens when families are scattered across the country or region for economic reasons, etc.

All I will say here is a brief reply to bubblyrat - gee, I would love to. In a more ideal world we would have all stayed relatively near one another in WV to live out our lives. However, sister and I felt obligated to earn our own livings and had to leave WV to do so. Neither of us are about to move back there in our late 50's, well before retirement age, and live off of our parents' retirement income, which is what would be required.

Let us be real.

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 08:38 PM

John is absolutely right about loads... If you do go with the WV/Boberdized $2000 system you do have to figure what it takes to run stuff and some stuff you won't be able to run, even with a 7500 Watt generator... But given that yer parents allready heat with oil and don't have to run a submersible pump or heat water with electricity then the 7500 W unit will do pretty well for the rest of their needs... An electric oven or clothes dryer are big drains so I would try to use smaller appliances such as the microwave or toaster oven while on generator...

Another couple factors... The WV/Boberdized system with a $1200 7500 Watt generator isn't going to be electric start so yer dad is going to have to pull the cord like starting a lawn mower... Also, most hold about 5-6 gallons of fuel which, depending on the current draw, will only last 12 or so hours...

Good luck, mom and dad...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 23 Dec 09 - 09:10 PM

We've done quite a bit of research on the feasibility of adding a generator to the camper; but the main need for it would be to avoid the long lineups at festival. With our "medical appliances" we simply can't go to the fest without AC electricity, and it means spending a month in lineups to be reasonably assured of getting the hookup.

Unfortunately, running a generator of any kind during the festival would be (IMO) extremely rude, so there's no affordable way of getting equipment quiet enough to be a satisfactory solution for our small wheelie. Larger campers can have built-in propane generators that have "tolerable" (but still annoying) noise levels; but a usable unit for our little kit would be a third of the original cost of the camper (~$6,000 or thereabout, with the necessary added propane tanks).

For a stationary unit at a home, it might be worth noting that a consensus opinion is that anyone getting a 7.5 KW or larger unit (but still smaller than a "standby power" unit) should look seriously at one promoted as a "welding generator" rather than the more common utility kinds. Durability, reliability, and better ability to handle surge loads are the main points of differentiation, although nearly all of the "welders" I've seen do have electric start. Good welding generators also run 30 to 50 percent heavier than the utility models, but can commonly be bought "on wheels" (mounted on a trailer).

John

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: Arkie
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 12:12 AM

Here in Arkansas zoning laws are rather lax and no one complains about a running generator. In my neighborhood almost every house has a generator for those times when the power goes which is a couple of times during the winter. We have gas heat and gas hot water heaters. We had an electrician rig up a connection to the power box so we can hook up the generator to our heating system to operated the electric blowers and thermostat. There is a switch we throw when this is done. We have a small generator and use it to heat and run a few lights, etc. One does have to add gas a couple of times a day. During long stretches there are long lines at the stations that can operate on generators. The ideal thing would be to have a generator that ran on natural gas. One neighbor has a natural gas full house generator that comes on atomatically when the power goes. This runs into about $5000 in Arkansas. I sure miss my wood stove.

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: gnu
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 02:45 PM

Toaster oven... hmmm.... quite a load there, Bobert. At least 2000W, no?

As fer cookin, I have a 600W nuke, a 2 burner Coleman naptha, a 2 burner Coleman propane, a propane BBQ, and a wood stove. Of course, I also have a garage, so cooking with the stoves and BBQ aren't so bad.

During a power outage, I would stick just to using the nuke.

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 03:28 PM

If sound level is an issue, consider Fisher-Panda. They are fast becoming the industry standard for marine work because they are efficient, reliable and quiet. They ain't cheap but ya gets what ya pays for.

As far as electrical wires go, the only two ways to go are hard wired or twist lock. Don't even waste your time and money on extension cords. They are not designed for your needs.

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: gnu
Date: 24 Dec 09 - 03:43 PM

Depends on what you wanna do... run up a fridge, then a freezer for overnight and keep the woodstove on? Don't rule out any situation or solution.

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: Janie
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 07:33 PM

Just wanted to say thanks again for the information provided here. Dad is finding it very help in deciding what to do, and to learn what questions to ask, etc. as he figures out what to do.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 07:50 PM

Say, "Hey" to Dad, fir me, Janie, and if'n he wants to talk with a fellow hillbilly about 'lectricity then it can be arranged...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Dec 09 - 08:09 PM

My gas generator is in the back yard in the form of a Ford Taurus with a 2000 watt marine inverter. It runs the fridge, furnace blower and lights when the power goes out.

a two or three hundred dollar marine inverter attached to your car battery is a decent alternate to those loud obnoxious and dangerous gas generators.

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: danensis
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 01:45 PM

Get a bag of sticks. Screw up some newspaper, and place the sticks on top. Put a match to the newspaper. When the sticks have caught, put on some logs.

With a row of bricks down each side, you can put a boot scraper across the top and do your cooking as well as keeping warm.

Not recommended for indoor use.

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 02:52 PM

Ahhhh, that's fine fir younger folks, danensis, but we're talkin' about folks in their 80's who live in some very unkind conditions...

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 04:16 PM

My folks had the wood cut and then got a wood splitter device that was smooth and easy. The wood went into a Franklin stove or the iron stove in the kitchen but they also had gas. The franklin would get hot enough to glow orange. In the winter the 10 room house was reduced to 3 very warm rooms.

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Dec 09 - 04:21 PM

Yeah, wood stoves are almost a must for rural living... We have one and it rocks... It's technically a coal stove but they are better for small spaces than most wood stoves because they are smaller... But it doesn't know the difference between coal and wood so we just cut smaller length wood for it...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 30 Dec 09 - 03:03 PM

When I was living on my schooner, I had a wood/charcoal stove. I made the mistake of using anthracite [hard coal] in it and destroyed the stainless walls. Make sure not to use something your stove is not designed to handle.

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 10:15 AM

My stove is all cast iron and made of good Irish iron, to boot... Too small, hoever, fir burnin' cows...

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: gnu
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 12:23 PM

EBarnacle... good advice. A company in Quebec (Ecolog, I think) makes "logs" out of sawdust and chips. Much higher heat content, very little smoke or ash, no bugs, they deliver it and pile it wherever you want (even in the cellar)... blah, blah, blah...

BUT, it burns SO hot that you can only put so many in at a time... and you can't use them in some stoves.

BTW... I have only met of one guy (out of about ten I have talked to about them) with a pellet stove that worked properly and had no problems with the feeder.

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 12:26 PM

We set up a fully automated propane generator for my aged parents after the last major ice storm, when we realized that firing up and re-fueling the old gas powered generator was out of the question.

The generator is in its own shed, battery operated (needs to be checked once every year), and requires no major switching for the residents. My mother does switch off the electric water heater, which may or may not be necessary. The propane tanks will keep the system going for about a week without refueling; we once had an outage of ten days but they do live a mile from the main road and there are a lot of potential trees that could (and do) come crashing down.

We did have the system installed by a master heating technician.

I believe the whole system ran $7000 to $8000, which we believe is well worth the investment. We live half an hour away and are greatly relieved that our parents are independent of the grid. They also have a Jitterbug mobile phone (which needs to be periodically charged) so they can communicate with the outside world if the phone lines go down as well.

The part of the house that is heated in the winter is about 1600 square feet. There's a refrigerator and a freezer, the electric water heater, gas kitchen stove, computer, and lighting.

I'll have to look up what the technical specs are, if anyone is interested, but it works great.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: Janie
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 12:51 PM

Uh oh. We got us a real feud goin' on now between Maw & Paw over this issue. Maw really, really wants to go for a generator that will at least keep the furnace running. (I forgot that the pump that circulates the hot water through the system is also electric.) Paw is really, really agin' the whole notion, but might consider gas logs in the upstairs fireplace. I'm gonna let them duke it out for awhile.

Which reminds me - there are two really pretty fireplaces in that house, neither of which were designed to throw off heat anywhere but up the chimney. Seems like that is true of a lot of fireplaces. But I understand that you can get gas logs that are configured so they will put heat out into the room.

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: gnu
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 01:07 PM

Check out fireplace inserts. But, they wont (normally) keep the pipes from freezing.

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 01:49 PM

Our prior home had a fireplace insert that circulated air through a "plenum" under and behind the fire, to blow warm air out into the room.

The fan, unfortunately, was electric, so that kind of insert would be of little help during a power failure. A battery and small inverter would have sufficed to run the fan for a couple of days; but I never bothered to try that method since the missing blade on the fan made it a bit noisy.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 03:26 PM

Janie-

My father was adamant that no such back-up system was needed or desired.

He was very pleased with how well it worked when my brother and I had it installed anyway. Of course we were very fortunate that it worked so well. If it didn't, we would never have heard the last of it.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble, who has no back-up system whatsoever where he lives unless sharing the house with two longhaired cats counts

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 05:03 PM

He has since died but I used to have a friend in Oregon who, when he built his house, ran water pipes around/above his fireplaces and on through some walls to keep his house warm. As he said, his electric bill was larger in the summer than it was in the winter.

Not that that helps your parents, Janie...

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: Bobert
Date: 31 Dec 09 - 07:35 PM

The gas logs work very well, Janie... You don't lose much heat 'cuase they are really just fancy vented gas heaters with the logs being like the ceramic things that maintain the heat... Paw is gonna have to live with a propane tank outside but, hey, the entire system will be cheaper than a generator... Of course, the gas logs will prevent future real fires but, hey...

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: gnu
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 12:30 PM

http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/co/maho/em/em_002.cfm

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: gnu
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 12:31 PM

I tried to make a blinky...

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 01:08 PM

A Clicky

Looks like a pretty good summary. Some of the sample costs are a little off what I've found, but that may be because the equipment is more available and more frequently used than in my area.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: kendall
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 01:22 PM

That ice storm we had a few years ago told me that a back up power system is a necessity. 5 days without heat in a Maine winter is just not acceptable.

Modern small engines start on one pull, not like the old days when you could lose 10 pounds yanking on a cord. Electronic ignition has done away with all that yanking.It is a good idea to add some Sta-bil to the fuel tank to keep the fuel from going stale when the generator is not used for a long time.

Subject: RE: BS: Gas generators -info & opinions?
From: gnu
Date: 18 Jan 10 - 02:52 PM

And put a BIG SIGN on the generator that says "DO NOT FORGET TO TURN THE FUEL VALVE OFF YOU ****ING IDIOT!"

I gotta change the oil again.