 sj |
||
|
||
The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ??
|
|
|
Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ?? From: Gutcher Date: 09 Jan 10 - 03:00 PM Sorry folk I ommitted the word Ireland in my previous post. -- they cross over to Gallowa in 1452 from Ireland.---- David Kennedy,not then 1st Earl of Cassillis would be an aged man at the time of his marriage in 1507. The young lady being a niece of King James 111. Question;---was the young lady pregnant & in urgent need of a husband, John Fall not being allowed to marry her? Kennedy for a good bribe[an Earldom]proving amenable. The Kennedys lost Cassillis in 2009 after a period of 700 years or so. Joe |
|
Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ?? From: Gutcher Date: 09 Jan 10 - 11:46 AM Anent Gypsies. Most of the stories I have I learned orally as a child from relations, friends & from a marvellous teacher in an oot-bye one teacher,country primary school.How this lady managed to educate 25-30 pupils,in seven classes,never ceases to amaze me. I never knew of any pupil who left that school who was not able to read & write.Most of the stories are historically based & over a lifetime of reading I have put flesh on the bones by adding dates. The Gutcher[S.E.Grandfather]would often tell of the walking feats of his old folk, I incorporated this in the interesting story [oral&historical]behind the old 17th C.ballad "Lord Spynie" & was shot down by the educated audience who claimed that walking 50 miles in one day was impossible. This was 35-40 years back & I can still remember the feeling when some 2 or 3 months later I was reading the autobiography of Thomas Carlyle [a scholar&bookish man]there on page 39 he states that the longest walk he did in one day,from Muirkirk in Ayrshire to the town of Dumfries,was 54 miles. Given that he may have been a few miles out I have felt since that time that oral tradition should never be dismissed out of hand. To return to gypsies. As I understand it they appear in the south of France in 1422 & from historical sources they cross over to Gallowa in 1452. Anderson, whom I have consulted today for the 1st time, states clearly gypsies mid 15th C.in Gallowa. My previous info.on this must have come from an other source. This could have been Symsoun,Agnew, McKerlie or an other local book. Not mentioned in Taylor or Tytler. Dick makes a vague mention of a local tradition. The date can of course be worked out from the history of the Earls of Douglas & the McLellands of Bombie. My arthritis does not allow me to access the books in my loft so I cannot be more specific. If there be any historical truth in the ballad John Fall was not a gypsie & the Countess a lady of very high degree near sib to the King. Joe. bye |
|
Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ?? From: Jack Campin Date: 08 Jan 10 - 07:41 PM A browser is the program you use to access the web. Internet Explorer, Safari, Firefox, Opera, several others. They all do the same sort of thing but Internet Explorer (the most used, because it comes with any Windows computer) is the most likely to cause this sort of problem (and is the one you're likely to be using if you don't know what a browser is). Do a google search for "Firefox download" and follow the instructions to get it working. Then use it instead of Internet Explorer. |
|
Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ?? From: Steve Gardham Date: 08 Jan 10 - 03:21 PM Joe, If you're anything like me Jack's message, helpful as it will be, might as well be in double dutch. What's a browser and how do you switch it? |
|
Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ?? From: Jack Campin Date: 08 Jan 10 - 10:01 AM The narrow column width is being set by your browser, not Mudcat. Looking at the HTML source for this page, each line of your post ends with <br> (a linebreak followed by three non-breaking spaces). Mudcat doesn't insert that - it never adds linebreaks automatically or inserts at all, as far as I can see. Your browser must be doing that. Switch to a different one. |
|
Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ?? From: Gutcher Date: 08 Jan 10 - 09:08 AM Steve. My last post seems to have disappeard. In it I requested information on how to obtain width, as you have above, in a post. My next one would form rather a long ribbon. Simple instructions only please. Thanks, Joe. |
|
Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ?? From: Steve Gardham Date: 07 Jan 10 - 06:28 PM Looking at Sigrid's paper it would appear that Child's main informant on this was MacMath and he offended MacMath whilst he was getting the info from him. It seems reasonable to assume that further info might be in MacMath's Mss which I think could be at Dumfries. I've just been looking at the Dumfries and Galloway Natural History and Antiquarian site and I think I saw Frank Miller did some research into Macmath's papers in the 30s. p89 'Gypsies, or Romany, are generally supposed not to have entered Eng & Sc much earlier than 1500......thus our investigations must be limited to the 16th&17th cs.' Child mentions the first ref to Johnny Faa as of 1540 in Pitcairn. Famously when James V gave protection and immunity to Faa and his company, as 'Earl of Little Egypt' From what I can see the paper seems to concentrate on 17thc links between the Cassilis and Faas, possibly because Child concentrates on this period and the popular tradition relating to the 6th Earl and his wife of which of course there is no inkling of an abduction or elopement. I sympathise with Joe. Even though I hold extensive indexes I have snippets like this in folders all over the place and can't always lay my hands on them. Creeping senility doesn't help! |
|
Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ?? From: Matt Seattle Date: 07 Jan 10 - 01:57 PM Joe I had already looked up Paterson because 'Diva' had told me about him before - we are acquaintit ootwith the mudcat and she has told me she holds you in high regard. I didn't trawl Chambers, just turned up that article with google. It looks as if Sigrid Rieuwerts is the place to look for anything more recent, I haven't tried, Steve G will likely get back to us. All intriguing stuff! |
|
Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ?? From: GUEST,Jack Campin Date: 07 Jan 10 - 12:10 PM I didn't mean that it was ruled out, just that you can't count on the Vatican records for a definitive answer. If they did process an appeal they will have a record of it. (A fairly large proportion of canon law cases did go to appeal, the lower levels of the hierarchy seem to have operated in the classic bureaucratic style of always giving NO as the default answer and appeal was made a very efficient process to compensate). Does the Scottish Peerage have anything relevant in it? It's not very reliable about women, but something like this ought be mentioned. |
|
Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ?? From: Gutcher Date: 07 Jan 10 - 12:01 PM Thanks Matt. How were you able to access Patersons History of Ayrshire, one hour & ten minutes after Diva posted the title?. With my first post I was hopeing, [if the events had taken place pre reformation] in view of the rank of the Earl, that the Roman Church would have a record of interest in this matter. Jack Campins post[above]would appear to rule this out. I most certainly read of the event in the distant past & will try to find the source. Did you find Lord Derwentwater in your trawl of Chambers? Joe. _ |
|
Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ?? From: Steve Gardham Date: 07 Jan 10 - 11:13 AM Sigrid Rieuwerts in her article 'The Historical Moorings of TGL: JF and Lady Cassilis, (p78f in The Ballad and Oral Literature, ed Joseph Harris, 1991) goes through all of the later machinations between Earls of Cassilis and the gypsies which include many hangings, but no elopements or abductions. If it's of any use I'll go back over it and see where she starts from. I'm pretty certain she doesn't cover the first earl though. Does anyone know of any more recent papers on the subject? |
|
Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ?? From: Matt Seattle Date: 07 Jan 10 - 06:03 AM "The story starts in 1507 & the events chronicled in the ballad were supposed to have taken place in the summer of 1510" It's a convincing story as you tell it, Joe. I would also be interested in your source. I would also not be disappointed if you can't find it, because, whether the ballad is founded on real events or not, we still have the ballad and its myriad tunes in their myriad forms. This interesting page http://www.maybole.org/history/books/CarricksCapital/countessandgypsy.htm quotes Chambers, who goes with the 6th Earl. |
|
Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ?? From: Gutcher Date: 06 Jan 10 - 08:21 PM Steve. Correct me if I am wrong.Did Prof.Child not give John, 6th Earl of Cassillis the honour of being his chosen villian in the ballad? If he did then he was surely in error & his scholarly collabs. sorely to blame. Paterson in Vol 2 of his History of Ayrshire Pub.1852 prints a letter from this Earl to the Earl of Eglinton dated 15th Dec. 1642 appraising the latter of the death of his dearly beloved bedfellow & inviting him to attend the funeral on 5th Jan.1643 The Earl & his Lady were married in 1621. The Earl married his second wife in 1644 & a son of this marriage became 7th Earl in 1668. Sorry to cause you so much trouble checking books which may be the wrong source. I have been telling the story for a long time now without having to consult the source. Joe. |
|
Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ?? From: Steve Gardham Date: 06 Jan 10 - 02:15 PM Joe, I am no scholar, but I have read a lot of what the scholars write and I can't imagine how Child and his collaborators in Scotland and all the scholars who have written on this since could have missed the info you post above. Therefore my own instincts tell me it is vitally important that what you say above can be verified in any way. As far as I can see they were all concentrating on the various intrigues between the Faas and later earls of Cassilis. I have most of Chambers' Journals and The Book of Days which have various ballad entries. It doesn't feature in any of the books I have by Robert Chambers. |
|
Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ?? From: Jack Campin Date: 06 Jan 10 - 12:50 PM Heritable jurisdiction could be expensive. George Heriot's School in Edinburgh ended up with the right, by virtue of the lands they owned (previously held by such as Logan of Restalrig). At some point in the early 18th century the trustees of Heriot's actually got stuck with the responsibility of organizing a capital trial, or were about to (the case of Nicol Muschat? I'm not sure) and petitioned the city council to take the whole business off their hands as it was eating time and money they needed for educational purposes. You'd think a school could take useful advantage of being able to sentence people to death (talk back to the teacher and get strung up in the quadrangle) but since they couldn't make any laws and had to involve lawyers, they had all the hassle and none of the fun. |
|
Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ?? From: Gutcher Date: 06 Jan 10 - 12:49 PM Having had some time to give the matter a bit thought I think the publication that may contain the required information would be one of the works published in the mid 19th C. by Chambers. As there are some 2 or 3 dozen of these somewhere about the house--------I may be some time. Incidentally one of these books contains a good article on Lord Derwentwater with a fine version of the ballad of the same name {how's that for an incentive to get all you good people reading during this sever winter weather} Joe. |
|
Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ?? From: Matt Seattle Date: 06 Jan 10 - 11:05 AM "And I still haven't got round to reading Patterson's History of Ayrshire" Following your prompt Kathy I read the relevant bit online, he convincingly says who it wasn't but not who it was. |
|
Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ?? From: Diva Date: 06 Jan 10 - 10:07 AM Haven't seen the hanging in Pitcairn but if I get a wee minute on Saturday I'll hae a look, providing I can get tae work |
|
Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ?? From: Diva Date: 06 Jan 10 - 09:55 AM And I still haven't got round to reading Patterson's History of Ayrshire |
|
Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ?? From: Diva Date: 06 Jan 10 - 09:54 AM Joe welcome tae the Mudcat, |
|
Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ?? From: katlaughing Date: 05 Jan 10 - 10:17 PM I love learning about all of this. Thank you, Joe/Gutcher, and welcome to the Mudcat! |
|
Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ?? From: Gutcher Date: 05 Jan 10 - 09:11 PM Hello Jack. I doubt if the hanging of the Faas would appear in Pitcairn as most Barons & Lairds had a right of Heritable Jurisdiction this would include at that time the right of Pit & Gallows. The right of Heritable Jurisdiction was abolished in the 1730s if my memory serves me right. At that time some of the descendants of the robber barons claimed rather large sums of money for the loss of their privileges Joe. |
|
Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ?? From: Gutcher Date: 05 Jan 10 - 08:38 PM Hello Matt & Steve. 1. I am no scholar 2. Am a lifelong compulsive reader 3. Have a very retentive memory for items {written & oral} that are of interest to me {was able to pick up most songs at one hearing Had to request Geordie Murison to sing the same song twice,four years back, before I had it--am failing fast in my old age!! 4. Due to all the above I do not have notes of where my information can be found. {most of the books should be in the house.It will take a lot of reading to find the relevant pages also a lot of digging to find the books} The Story. {It tells better verbally in my ain tongue} In the summer of the year 1507 a young lady of high degree in the East of Scotland was courted by a young man called John Fall {to this day in Ayrshire people called Fall or Hall would be called Faa {FAW} or Haa {HAW} "Johnie Faa" alt. title for the ballad.} Her father finding out the young mans intentions forbad him the house. Thereafter John Fall would sing in the gardens at dusk & the young lady would come out to be courted. The father soon found out what was taking place & locked her up. Shortly thereafter he married her off to David Kennedy laird of Cassillis. Two years after the marriage Kennedy was created 1st Earl of Cassillis probabily as part of the marriage settlement {bribe} In the summer of 1510 John Fall decided to pay his old sweetheart a visit, with six friends all dressed as gypsies they crossed the country to Ayrshire {gypsies would have more freedom to travel in those unchancy times} On arriving at the tower house of Cassillis near Ayr John Fall sung the song that he used to sing to let the young lady know that he was in the garden awaiting her. The young Countess recognized the song & the singer---------- The ballad must have been composed by someone in the West who thought that the gypsies had thrown a spell on the lady with their singing. Robert Burns states that this was the only song he knew that could be claimed for Ayrshire. Joe. |
|
Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ?? From: Jack Campin Date: 05 Jan 10 - 06:14 PM As I understand the protocol, the Vatican only got involved if a canon law decision was appealed. So if the bishop of Glasgow approved the annulment on first request, there would be no record of it outwith Scotland. Where the relevant bit of paper might well have fed a bonfire at the Reformation. A canon law matter won't be in Pitcairn. The hanging of the Faas probably would be, but it's also the first place anybody researching this would look, so I wouldn't expect to find anything new there. |
|
Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ?? From: Gutcher Date: 05 Jan 10 - 05:45 PM Thanks Kat, I was hoping that someone with access to the V.A. would pick up on this & make the enquiry. Joe. |
|
Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ?? From: Steve Gardham Date: 05 Jan 10 - 04:05 PM Very interesting. I've just finished reading Sigrid Rieuwerts' 1991 paper 'Historical Moorings of 'The Gypsy Laddie'. Of course she makes connection between various Cassilis earls and the Faas, but doesn't go back as early as this. Good luck in your researches and please post your findings here. Child cites Pitcairn, Ancient Criminal Trials in Scotland (3 vols edinb. 1833) which might be worth a look around this 1510 date. Like Matt I would also be interested to know where you got your primary info. |
|
Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ?? From: Matt Seattle Date: 05 Jan 10 - 01:37 PM "The story starts in 1507 & the events chronicled in the ballad were supposed to have taken place in the summer of 1510." Intriguing, Joe - how do you know? |
|
Subject: RE: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ?? From: katlaughing Date: 05 Jan 10 - 10:49 AM It may be a rough go. I found this from HERE: Vatican Library The Vatican Library is open only to scholars who know precisely what they wish to consult. Visiting scholars need a letter from their university and two photos. Go directly to the Vatican entrance through Santa Anna's gate from 9 a.m. till 12 noon. On the other hand there is also this from HERE: A brief narrative description of the journal article, document, or resource: Because of space and staff constraints, the Vatican Library can issue only 2,000 reader cards a year. Describes IBM's Vatican Library Project: converting the library catalog records (prior to 1985) into machine readable form and digitally scanning 20,000 manuscript pages, print pages, and art works in gray scale and color, creating a database accessible to scholars throughout the world via the Internet. You may be able to get help from The American Friends of the Vatican Library. kat |
|
Subject: The Gypsie Laddies 500th Anniversary ?? From: Gutcher Date: 05 Jan 10 - 10:25 AM Hello All, Is there anyone out there who can tell me how to obtain information from the Vatican archives. I should imagine that such a request would have to be submitted by a prestigious academic body to have any chance of obtaining the required information. David Kennedy created 1st Earl of Cassillis in 1509 would appear to be the choice, his second wife being the Countess who eloped If the archives could be checked for an annulment or divorce granted to this Earl say between the years 1509-1513 it would clinch the matter. The story starts in 1507 & the events chronicled in the ballad were supposed to have taken place in the summer of 1510. Joe. |
| Share Thread: |