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Origins: Four or Fore Day Creep by Jesse Crump

VirginiaTam 07 Jan 10 - 04:41 AM
VirginiaTam 08 Jan 10 - 02:02 AM
GUEST 08 Jan 10 - 02:10 AM
GUEST,999 08 Jan 10 - 02:14 AM
GUEST,999 08 Jan 10 - 02:31 AM
GUEST,999 08 Jan 10 - 02:35 AM
GUEST,999 08 Jan 10 - 02:43 AM
GUEST,999 08 Jan 10 - 02:50 AM
VirginiaTam 08 Jan 10 - 03:44 AM
GUEST,999 08 Jan 10 - 11:08 PM
GUEST,Bob Coltman 09 Jan 10 - 07:43 AM
VirginiaTam 10 Jan 10 - 10:29 AM
deadfrett 10 Jan 10 - 05:20 PM
GUEST,999 10 Jan 10 - 10:28 PM
deadfrett 10 Jan 10 - 10:54 PM
GUEST,999 10 Jan 10 - 11:04 PM
GUEST,999 10 Jan 10 - 11:07 PM
VirginiaTam 11 Jan 10 - 02:52 AM
GUEST,Joseph Scott 14 Jan 17 - 01:09 AM
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Subject: Lyr Add: FORE DAY CREEP (from Ida Cox)
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 04:41 AM

I am learning this song performed by Ida Cox (wife of the reported song author Jesse Crump). Found it on my Ultimate Encyclopedia of American Blues Classics (best used purchase I ever made).

Fore Day Creep - Ida Cox on youtube

What I would like to know:

What the actual title of the original song is?
Was it indeed penned by Jesse Crump?
Are the lyrics in digitrad under another title?

I have searched Fore Day Creep, Four Day Creep and Outside Woman Blues, as well as Ida Cox and Jesse Crump to no avail.


Fore Day Creep

Lyrics: Jesse Crump
Music: Jesse Crump
Recorded by: Ida Cox
Contributed by: Kalin Jensen
Commentary by: Kalin Jensen


When you lose your money, don't lose your mind.
When you lose your money, don't lose your mind.
When you lose your good man, please don't mess with mine.

And I'm gonna buy me a bulldog; watch my man while he sleeps.
I'm gonna guy me a bulldog; watch my man while he sleeps.
Men are so doggone crooked, afraid he might make a fore day creep.

Girls I'm gonna tell you this, ain't gonna tell you nothin' else.
Girls I'm gonna tell you this, ain't gonna tell you nothin' else.
Any woman's a fool to think she's got a whole man by herself.

But if you got a good man and don't want him tak'n away from you,
Girls if you got a good man and don't want him tak'n away from you,
Don't ever tell your friend woman what your man can do.

I may be old, high up in years,
I may be old, high up in years,
But I can still climb a hill without shiftin' my gears.

And I'm a big fat mama, got some meat shakin' on my bones.
I'm a big fat mama, got some meat shakin' on my bones.
And every time I shake some skinny gal loses her home.

Above taken from this site -
http://www.arts.ualberta.ca/~blues/Fore%20Day%20Creep.htm


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Subject: RE: Origins: Four or Fore Day Creep by Jesse Crump
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 02:02 AM

So no Mudcat knowledge on this song out there?


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Subject: Lyr Add: FORE DAY CREEP (from Ida Cox)
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 02:10 AM

Ida Cox's "Fore Day Creep" is often mistakenly entitled, "Four Day Creep." It's that stealthy stealth·y
adj. stealth·i·er, stealth·i·est
Marked by or acting with quiet, caution, and secrecy intended to avoid notice. See Synonyms at secret. move that gets someone home before daybreak. Things are a little too clear in the light of day and some people might just question your intentions or your state of mind. Interestingly, Ms. Ida connects questionable intentions in a woman with economic distress but does not seem to draw the same implications from infidelity in a man. In the third verse, infidelity in a man is only to be expected as the natural state of affairs.

Fore Day Creep -- Lyrics by Ida Cox

When you lose your money don't lose your mind
When you lose your money don't lose your mind
When you lose your good man please don't mess with mine.

And I'm gonna buy me a bulldog to watch my man while he sleeps
I'm gonna buy me a bulldog to watch my man while he sleeps
Men are so doggone crooked, afraid he might make a four day creep.

Girls I'm gonna tell you this, ain't gonna tell you nothin' else
Girls I'm gonna tell you this, ain't gonna tell you nothin' else
Any woman's a fool who thinks she's got a whole man by herself

But if you got a good man and don't want him taken away from you
Girls if you got a good man and don't want him taken away from you
Don't ever tell your friend woman what your man can do

Lord Lord I'm getting up in years
Lordy Lordy Lordy I'm getting up in years
But mama ain't too old to shift her gears

And I'm a big fat mama, got the meat shakin' on my bones
I'm a big fat mama, got the meat shakin' on my bones
And every time I shake, some skinny gal loses her home

from
www.thefreelibrary.com/Harlem+wisdom+in+a+wild+woman's+blues:+the+cool+intellect+of+Ida+Cox-a0148463510


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Subject: Lyr Add: FOUR DAY CREEP (from Ida Cox)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 02:14 AM

That was me above.

FOUR DAY CREEP / FORE DAY CREEP
Ida Cox from "Complete Recorded Works, Vol. 4 (1927-1938)" (Document 5325)

When you lose your money don't lose your mind
When you lose your money don't lose your mind
When you lose your good man please don't mess with mine

And I'm gonna buy me a bulldog to watch my man while he sleeps
I'm gonna buy me a bulldog to watch my man while he sleeps
Men are so doggone crooked, afraid he might make a fore-day creep

Girls, I'm gonna tell you this, ain't gonna tell you nothin' else
Girls, I'm gonna tell you this, ain't gonna tell you nothin' else
Any woman's a fool to think she's got a whole man by herself

But if you got a good man and don't want him taken away from you
Girls, if you got a good man and don't want him taken away from you
Don't ever tell your friend woman what your man can do

Lord Lord I'm getting up in years
Lordy Lordy Lordy I'm getting up in years
But mama ain't too old to shift her gears

And I'm a big fat mama, got the meat shakin' on my bones
I'm a big fat mama, got the meat shakin' on my bones
And every time I shake, some skinny gal loses her home
__________
Note 1: four day creep, or 'fore (from: before) day creep, to betray one's wife or lover with another lover.

That was from www.secondhandsongs.com/song/27463


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Subject: RE: Origins: Four or Fore Day Creep by Jesse Crump
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 02:31 AM

What I know for sure is that Crump wrote the music.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Four or Fore Day Creep by Jesse Crump
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 02:35 AM

Just to confuse things a bit:

'Fore Day Creep (Jesse Crump) - Chicago IL - July 1927 - Paramount 12488-A - Ida Cox (voc), Jesse Crump (p)

Four Day Creep (Ida Cox) - New York City - Oct. 31, 1939 - Vocalion 05336 - Ida Cox (voc) and her Allstar Band (Artie Bernstein (b), Charlie Christian (g), Lionel Hampton (d), James P. Johnson (p), Fletcher Henderson (p), J.C. Higginbotham (tromb), Edmond Hall (cl), Hot Lips Page (tr))

[Sure would be nice to see the 1927 sheet music to the song.]

that info is from

www.keeponliving.at/artist/ida_cox.html


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Subject: RE: Origins: Four or Fore Day Creep by Jesse Crump
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 02:43 AM

http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:k7PyhylBGLcJ:www.secondhandsongs.com/song/27463+jesse+crump,+fore+day+creep&cd=4&hl=en&ct=c


OK. Best guess for the nonce: the music was written by Jesse Crump. The words are kinda generic blues and maybe were just kickin' around. Come 1970s, someone made the assumption that 'fore was misspelled (not realizing it was really BEfore's abbreviation). The title was then changed to Four Day Creep from 'Fore Day Creep and now we have this really neat thread.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Four or Fore Day Creep by Jesse Crump
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 02:50 AM

From the U of A website you linked to, I respectfully suggest that the writer made a mistake:

"Four Day Creep" was written by Jesse Crump, Cox's husband, and is sometimes listed as "Fore Day Creep" (www.redhotjazz.com). Ida Cox performed this song live in concert at Carnegie Hall in New York City on December 24, 1938 with Shad Collins on trumpet, Dickie Wells on trombone, James P. Johnson on piano, and Jo Jones on drums (Cox). Two additional band members were listed – Buddy Tate on "ts" and Walter Page on "sb" – but I could not make out what instruments the initials stood for. The above lyrics were translated to page myself while listening to the song. I believe them to be more correct that the alternate versions I found later in online databases and wonder if they were taken from a different performance/recording of "Four Day Creep." "


The 1927 version was entitled "'fore Day Creep" and someone at my old Alma Mater got it wrong (I suggest respectfully).


Get the heavies (Jim Dixon and Q) on this when you can.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Four or Fore Day Creep by Jesse Crump
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 03:44 AM

Wow! Thanks 999.

Almost too much info. I surmised that it should be fore day creep, fore being a shortening of before. Makes sense- man creeping out the house before the sun rises presumably to meet with some other woman.

I am liking the notes about line meanings.

I inferred from "Every time I shake, some skinny girl loses her home" line to be a boast/warning that she has the stuff (whatever that be, physical or financial means) to keep her man from creeping and paying other women for sexual favours. But I probably have it wrong.

You say you know for sure that Crump wrote the music. Does this include the lyrics? Sigh! Sheet music would be great. Would like to accompany myself on guitar, so chords would be great.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Four or Fore Day Creep by Jesse Crump
From: GUEST,999
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 11:08 PM

I'll look tomorrow. I'm on a slow machine just now.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Four or Fore Day Creep by Jesse Crump
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 09 Jan 10 - 07:43 AM

'Fore / Four:

A&R men and associates often got African American dialect wrong when titling blues songs. To compound the difficulty, African American songwriters were sometimes poor spellers. So wrong spellings got into record and song contracts.

As regards the meaning:

" 'Fore " is correct. It's short, of course, for "before." The "before day creep" is the act of leaving before daylight, either to avoid further complications with the overnight partner (male or female), to get back to a wife or girlfriend who'll miss her man (or husband or boyfriend who'll miss his woman), to beat the law, or the landlord, or for some other reason.

"Four day creep," though frequently met with in print, is mistaken and a bit ludicrous, if you think of it: having to take four whole days to get out of the house, down the street, and out of sight. If I'm taking it on the lam, I sincerely hope I'm a bit faster than that.

Bob


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Subject: RE: Origins: Four or Fore Day Creep by Jesse Crump
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 10:29 AM

refresh ... cuz I think this song deserves some more air time


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Subject: RE: Origins: Four or Fore Day Creep by Jesse Crump
From: deadfrett
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 05:20 PM

V Tam..Eric Clapton and Cream did a fine version of this on thier Disreali Gears album. They called it Outside Woman Blues. They gave credit to Blind Willie Reynolds. Could this have been Blind Willie McTell? -- Dave


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Subject: RE: Origins: Four or Fore Day Creep by Jesse Crump
From: GUEST,999
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 10:28 PM

After years of travelling and performing on street corners, [Blind Joe] Reynolds was eventually discovered in 1929 by musical talent scout H.C. Speir and is known to have entered the studio at least twice, recording four songs on each occasion.

In November 1929, Speir took Reynolds to a small studio in Grafton, Wisconsin where he recorded the songs "Cold Woman Blues", "Nehi Blues", "Ninety Nine Blues" and "Outside Woman Blues". These were recorded under the name Blind Joe Reynolds and released as two 78rpm records by Paramount Records.

In November 1930, Reynolds entered the studio once again, this time in Memphis, Tennessee. There he recorded the songs "Goose Hill Woman Blues", "Married Man Blues", "Short Dress Blues" and "Third Street Woman Blues" under the name "Blind Willie Reynolds" for Victor Records. However, only two of these songs were released, on a single 78rpm record. The recordings of "Goose Hill Woman Blues" and "Short Dress Blues" are thought to be lost forever.

The song "Outside Woman Blues" would later find fame when it was recorded by Cream for their 1967 album, Disraeli Gears. The group became aware of the song after guitarist Eric Clapton heard it featured on a blues compilation album (Origin Jazz Library OJL-8). Curiously, on their version, Cream gave the writing credit to 'Arthur Reynolds'.

Reynolds' "Ninety Nine Blues"/"Cold Woman Blues" 78rpm recording for Paramount was thought to be lost until 2000 when a copy, which had been purchased in 1976 at a flea market for one dollar, surfaced. It subsequently sold privately for $5,500. It remains the only known copy in existence.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Four or Fore Day Creep by Jesse Crump
From: deadfrett
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 10:54 PM

Guest 999- Thanks for the comeback on Reynolds. I wasn't aware thst he was recorded that much. I knew McTell recorded under various 'sudeos. I thought Neihi Blues might have been one of them.
Thanks..Dave


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Subject: RE: Origins: Four or Fore Day Creep by Jesse Crump
From: GUEST,999
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 11:04 PM

I'm guessing that Nehi Blues was some sorta reference to the soft drink--the one favoured by Radar O'Reilly from the MASH series.

I hear you about people recording under 'suedos. There's likely a good thread in there.

I forgot to note that the info came from Wiki.


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Subject: Lyr Add: NEHI BLUES (Blind Joe Reynolds)
From: GUEST,999
Date: 10 Jan 10 - 11:07 PM

AND, once again did I guess wrong:


NEHI BLUES
As sung by Blind Joe Reynolds (1930)

Some girls wear short dresses, and these married women wears 'em too
Some girls wear short dresses, and these married women wears 'em too
That's the reason single men, Lord, don't know what we want to do

When the proper judges make these women let these dresses down
When the proper judges make these women let these dresses down
Told that tremblin' soul, doggone, what you learnin' in town

Women tarry too long, pullin' this short dress style
Women tarry too long, pullin' the short dress style
So we single men can't tell a married woman from a child

Hmmm, Hmm, Hmmm, hmmm

Let me tell you boys what these nehi dresses will do
Let me tell you boys what these nehi dresses will do
Get you broke, ragged, and hungry boy, then come down on you

All of you women, you all oughta be ashamed
All of you young women, the whole lot oughta be ashamed
makin' these old men naughty, when they're walkin' on walking canes

Hmmm, Hmmm, Hmmm, Hmmm

An old man ain't nothin' but a young woman's slave
These old mens ain't nothin' but a young woman's slave
He works hard all the time tryin' to stay in a young man's ways

Hmmm, hmmm, hmmm, hmmm


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Subject: RE: Origins: Four or Fore Day Creep by Jesse Crump
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 11 Jan 10 - 02:52 AM

OMG! blast from the past. Grape Nehi and Moonpies.

I miss being a kid and frittering my allowance on Saturday. May be a blues song in that.

Thanks for all the extra if somewhat confusing info. So the lyrics are Reynold's and tune is Crump's?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Four or Fore Day Creep by Jesse Crump
From: GUEST,Joseph Scott
Date: 14 Jan 17 - 01:09 AM

"The words are kinda generic blues" Two of the stanzas, okay, because the familiar "meat shaking" stuff was in Green and McLaurin's "Blind Man Blues" in 1920, and "Buy me a bulldog" in Lovie Austin's "Jealous-Hearted Blues" (aka "Jealous Hearted Me") in 1924. But the other four stanzas, no.


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