BS: Can We Talk Peat?

Subject: BS: Can We Talk Peat?
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 01:01 PM

As a west coast North America USAian, I'm not really familiar with the concept of peat, peat bogs, peat sod, heating turf or any of those things.

Questions:

How is a peat bog identified?

Does it "grow" back or are there huge pits where peat has been extracted?

How deep is the peat body? Six inches? Eighteen inches?

Do private people go out and 'gather' peat or is there a protected industry?

What is the smell like of burning peat?

Is peat burnt only in fireplaces or can it also be used in enclosed stoves?

Is peat cut in large squares or is it cut into the needed size?

I read about peat briquettes; are they as dense as coal?

Southeast Alaska has a great deal of muskeg, marshes where the water table is at the surface or slightly above. Would peat be found there?

Not that I'm planning to utilize peat but I really would like more information.

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Talk Peat?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 01:10 PM

I saw peat cutting on my holiday in Scotland this summer past. It was amazing to see the lines of cuts in the moor and the pallets stacked with peat turves.

This might provide some good info

http://www.virtualhebrides.com/articles/peat-cutting/index.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Talk Peat?
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 01:32 PM

I used to live in peat country in western Maryland. I can answer a few of those.


How is a peat bog identified?

I don't know if there is an official way they do it, but they're pretty easy to spot. There are certain kinds of plants that grow in them, they will be very wet, if you step in them, the water that comes up looks like iced tea, if there is any running water through them, it looks like iced tea, if you dig down below the plants, you'll find peat.

How deep is the peat body? Six inches? Eighteen inches?

I'm guessing this would depend on the bog, and a number of different factors. Like, how old is the bog? That would effect how long the material would have been collecting in it, and hence, how deep it is.


Do private people go out and 'gather' peat or is there a protected industry?

They used to in western Maryland, but I don't know if they still do.


Southeast Alaska has a great deal of muskeg, marshes where the water table is at the surface or slightly above. Would peat be found there?

My guess would be yes, but I'm not an expert. What color is the water in them?

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Talk Peat?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 01:36 PM

Adding a little to the article, peat is dead plant material that has accumulated in a wet, anoxic (oxygen-poor) environment. Buried deeply by sediments, it is converted to coal by heat and pressure.
A lignitic coal is the next stage; the fuel has been used in several states, including Texas. There is a bed in Arctic Canada that caught fire and has been burning for many years; it was laid down when the earth's axis was at an inclination permitting much higher temperatures (think the Carolinas) in the Arctic.
Peat beds may vary in thickness, up to many feet. When buried by succeeding sediments, they are compressed and feet of thickness become inches.

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Talk Peat?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 01:40 PM

Hey Ebbie

Wonder if you can make whiskey with water from the muskeg marshes?

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Talk Peat?
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 01:50 PM

If it's a peat bog, it will have a lot of tannins in it. Are tannins good for making whiskey?

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Talk Peat?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 01:52 PM

I share your interest, Eb. When peat is covered in any scientific program I always try to answer those same questions!

Do you have it in Alaska?

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Talk Peat?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 02:07 PM

When I was doing field work in northern Canada, we drank water from the 'brown' springs or creeks that flowed through peaty beds; the tannins and acids kill many pathogens. Clear waters did not destroy pathogens from animal waste.

I have seen peaty material in the Matanuska area of Alaska and elsewhere in south Alaska.

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Talk Peat?
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 02:14 PM

"Wonder if you can make whiskey with water from the muskeg marshes? "

If you can, you may have my share. I like my Scotch without the peat flavor, thanks....

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Talk Peat?
From: gnu
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 02:38 PM

When I was a boy of about 12, my cousin started across the narrow end of a bog. I followed for about ten feet and turned heel real quick. The mat of peat felt like walking on a waterbed. He called me chicken and started to bounce up and down to show me it was safe. His rifle fetched him up when he broke though and he BELLIED his way back, shaking like a leaf. I smiled and said, "Cock-a doodle-doo."

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Talk Peat?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 03:02 PM

Yes, quaking bogs are fun- also can be dangerous if the vegetation-peaty layer is thin in places, as it usually is. I remember one in Illinois, where one could make small trees sway. I was 'chicken' and never stayed long.

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Talk Peat?
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 03:33 PM

In Ireland the peat turves are dug out with a slan, a kind of spade. The are put in a group of five or six turves propped up in a teepee shape and left to dry.

Turf cutting have often "been in the family" for years, even centuries. They are the results of bogs drained by death of the overlying trees of other vegetation, or deliberate draining for agriculture, etc.

There ARE commercial peat cutting operations, and even turfs formed from loose turf.

Get a handful of sphagnum, like you might use on a garden, Set it on fire and you'll get the idea of the smell.

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Talk Peat?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 03:44 PM

Very few people still cut with the slan actually. Contractors come in with the hopper which leaves long 'sausages' of compressed turf.

A lot of blanket bog areas have now been designated protected landscape and turfcutting there has ended.

I buy turf usually from a friend who cuts loads of it in his own bog (he usually cuts for a few years worth and sells surplus turf from the previous year to cover his own cost) but I have in the past bought Bord na Mona turf which comes from Offaly. Usually guys with lorries buy loads off Bord na Mona and deliver at a fair profit. A lorry load is usually fifteen ton but you can buy half loads. Getting it into the turfshed after the load's been dropped is a bit of a job, even a half load is a mighty mountain of turf.

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Talk Peat?
From: frogprince
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 04:08 PM

Q, are you talking about Volo Bog, N.W. of Chicago? There is, or was, a band, "The Volo Bogtrotters", who are on the "Never Grow Up" album with Anne Hills and Cindy Mangsen. I was there years ago, walking on boardwalks.

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Talk Peat?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 05:07 PM

Yep, Volo Bog. I had forgotten the name.

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Talk Peat?
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 05:12 PM

Muskeg water in southeast Alaska is the color of tea. Wouldn't it be something if we had peat bogs?

However, I would guess that peat is a non-renewable resource. I'd hate to see the scarred and decapitatated land. In this country we already have enough clear-cut lands.

But thanks for the information. I especially like knowing that family-owned plots are allowed.

I don't know if they are still allowed to do so but I have relatives in Pennsylvania and Indiana who have coalbeds in their 'back forties' and every year they went out and gathered their annual supply. It's dirty coal, of course, not high quality, at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Talk Peat?
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 05:28 PM

It's definitely renewable, if the plants are allowed to grow back and new layers are laid down. This process probably takes a long time, though, so people would have to leave it alone for a very ling time before the bog would return as it was. I agree, though.   I like peat bogs better in their natural state.

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Talk Peat?
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 05:42 PM

American Bogtrotters (original band...with Wade & Fields Ward

cartoon disparaging Irish 'bogtrotters'

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Talk Peat?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 05:44 PM

Renewable in nature, although locations shift as the climate changes, and much time is involved.
This Univ. Minnesota article has a section on restoration:
http://horticulture.cfans.umn.edu/vd/h5015/96papers/roos.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Talk Peat?
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 05:47 PM

Yes, I haven't seen a man leading home a donkey loaded with turf in, oh, a year or more.

I have seen turf cutting done with a slan, in the old way, but it seemed more of a family picnic or outing than a true necessity.

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Talk Peat?
From: gnomad
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 06:25 PM

Identifying peat bog: don't know an official way but sphagnum moss (and associated stuff) on top is a likely indicator. You can stick your hand right down into it and come up with a sort of compost-like soggy mass, deep brown or black, that is peat. It is all quite soft and usually mushy, unless you go at the end of a prolonged dry spell.

Grow-back; not significantly, cuttings done many years ago will have got a bit of vegetation regrowth, but peat accumulation is a process taking hundreds of years to form a depth worth talking about.

How deep? I have seen beds cut to well over a man's height, I don't know if there is a record, though I would expect so.

In some communities peat cutting is a right, with particular families having traditionally cut particular stretches, not necessarily on their own land. Little peat in now hand cut, though there is certainly still some in both Scotland and Ireland. Much of the early mechanical cutting was either for horticultural use, or for power generation.

Can't really describe the smell of peat burning, it is just an aroma that you are unlikely to forget. A nice one.

Peat is often burned just on a stone or concrete slab. It smoulders and glows mostly, not a lot of flame. A firebasket or a stove can be used, but isn't a requirement. Briquettes seem to be targeted at the more sophisticated arrangements, if you have a stove it would be worth checking its suitability with the manufacturers before using peat.

Size of pieces cut varies a bit, housebrick size is pretty common, or a bit bigger. Different densities will dry differentially, and locals will have found what works best locally.

Briquettes have a sort of slightly waxy finish, but if you break into one the nearest equivalent texture I can think of would be a coarse form of MDF board.

I don't know about Alaska, but those conditions sound possible, is it warm enough to get sphagnum growing, I wonder?

Commercial peat exploitation is something the green lobby are fighting quite hard for a number of reasons. It is still going on in the UK and Ireland, though I think that the environmentalists are gaining ground. There used to be quite an industry in Germany (Peat-Bog Soldiers, anyone) but I don't know whether that is still the case.

One word of warning; old peat cuttings are a first class place for doing yourself a mischief. You will end up at least filthy and knackered if you spend any time there, and there is always the possibility of serious injury.

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Talk Peat?
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 07:26 PM

"old peat cuttngs"? What's that? The bog itself?

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Talk Peat?
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 07:33 PM

Ya' know, being a gardener I should know this stuff, but I am clueless... I know that a bog is an area that does not drain well meaning that it stays wet most of the time...

I'll just shut up now and read what others have to say...

Oh, BTW, fir those of us who use peat moss be sure to wear a mask because there's bacteria in it that can make ya' sick... Like baterial phenomonia...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Talk Peat?
From: michaelr
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 07:49 PM

The unique chemistry of peat bogs acts to preserve human bodies. Quite a few bog mummies have been found. When we were in Dublin a few years back, two such bodies were on exhibit in the National Museum.

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Talk Peat?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 08:19 PM

Peat forms when dead, partly-decayed plant material accumulates in thick layers in waterlogged, oxygen-poor conditions. Most of the bacteria and fungi that cause decay (which is basically the breakdown of organic material into simpler inorganic substances with the release of carbon dioxide) cannot operate in those conditions, so the partly-decayed matter is preserved as the decay is arrested. Peat can form in lowland fen conditions in which neutral or slightly alkaline groundwater and vegetation such as coarse reeds determine the nature of the peat, or in upland valley bogs or blanket bogs, invariably in areas of high rainfall, in which mosses such as the various sphagnum species contribute to a much more acidic and fibrous peat. The rainwater makes all the difference. Blanket peat is typical of moorland in the UK, forming on slopes of gentle angle (no more than about 15 degrees) in areas of rainfall exceeding around 55 inches a year. This is by far the most abundant peat in the UK and Ireland. Valley bogs and fenland are very vulnerable to drainage for agriculture, a great temptation in fenland areas as the resulting peaty soils are excellent for arable farming. Peat on moorland is susceptible to erosion caused by deforestation and may also be vulnerable to air pollution. Whilst it is tempting to regard peat as a renewable resource, it's worth remembering that peat deposits which can be stripped bare in a couple of decades or less may have taken over 10,000 years to grow, and climate change may well prevent regeneration. It is no more environmentally-friendly to use up peat on a large scale than it is to use up oil and coal. There's nowt wrong with crofters or family farmers cutting turf for their winter fuel but there's plenty wrong with commercial exploitation of peat resources for generating electricity in power stations or selling on garage forecourts for domestic burning or for making potting compost.

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Talk Peat?
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 09:19 PM

Another question: What does the bog look like where the peat has been stripped away? Does the depth rise to come even with the rest of the surface? Or does the cutting result in left behind blank squares?

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Talk Peat?
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Jan 10 - 09:31 PM

Eb, here's a picture. As you can see, parts of old trees can be found in the bogs ("bog oak" in Ireland) as well as literally buried treasure, human bodies, dead animals, and so on. The peat preserves it all: no oxygen, high tannin content -- a body in a bog becomes literally tanned.

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Talk Peat?
From: gnomad
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 03:57 AM

That's a good shot of a recent (and quite deep) cutting from Rapaire. I had a search of my own pics hoping to find one such, but no luck. An area that is worked for peat may take a generation or more for all the cuts to link up so that a complete layer has been removed. While that is happening a bit of vegetation regrowth is likely, the neat "wall" you see in the pic crumbles a bit as it dries, and it will often acquire a foot or so of black water at the foot, barely distinguishable from the surrounding soft mush until you step into it. There are also often concealed bits of wood either historic, or left by cutters, it is easy to get snagged. Walking along the cuts is bad enough, walking "across the grain" extremely taxing. A detour is generally to be recommended.

The area being worked can extend to multiple acres, and the numerous cuts can make it appear from a distance like giant corrugated cardboard; hard to cross, and potentially hazardous.

A commercially worked peat field looks very different, more like a shallow open-cast mine (which is, of course, just what it is) I don't know what one can get to look like with time, possibly quite attractive if care is taken I should think, but it seems care is frequently lacking, and devastation the norm.

Whole prehistoric field systems have been found under peat bogs, google "Céide fields" for info and pictures.

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Talk Peat?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 05:07 AM

There were once extensive peat bogs in North West England, where I live. They were called 'Mosses' here. This name appears to have little connection with the Sphagnum moss from which they were formed but is rather a contraction of the word 'morass'. There were blanket bogs in the uplands of the Pennines and raised bogs in the lowlands.

In the 19th century the latter were mainly poisoned by the sulphurous smoke from the industrial areas of Lancashire and South and West Yorkshire. The former were drained and converted to farm land (this process often involved dumping sewage from the burgeoning industrial cities on to them).

Raised bogs were, apparently, spectacular landscape features. Ashton Moss lay east of Manchester, between Ashton-under-Lyne and Duckinfield. During wet weather it acted like a giant sponge and swelled up so much that objects on the opposite side from an observer disappeared from view. It also had an interesting and colourful flora and many of the plants that grew on it are now more or less extinct or rare locally.

Peat bogs once occurred in other parts of England e.g. Humberside and the Fens (both in Eastern England). Nearly all are gone now. The destruction of the bogs on Humberside (dug up and sold as garden compost) represents a grievous loss for British biodiversity. The most intact English peat bog that I have seen is Glasson Moss in Cumbria, up near the Solway Firth.

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Talk Peat?
From: gnomad
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 05:47 AM

Speaking of the lowland peat bogs of Britain, here are some pictures of Humberhead Peatlands National Nature Reserve which may help give an idea.

I have heard it suggested that the Norfolk Broads are the result of historic peat cutting on a massive scale, which have subsequently flooded as the water table rose for geological reasons connected with the last ice age. I don't know whether that is established fact, or just a theory.

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Talk Peat?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 06:33 AM

We burn turf in our kitchen range, in the open fireplace, and in a solid-fuel stove, along with coal and wood (fortunately we've got a lot of ash trees in our field, so we always have branches & off-cuts), though you don't have to mix them. Peter Laban has already said pretty much what I would have written had I come into this thread earlier.

We buy the little Bord na Móna blocks in our village shop-cum-postoffice; and whenever we go up to Donegal to visit Packie we always come home with a bag or two of natural "rough" turf, which is just the unprocessed cuttings, not the symmetrical machine-made briquettes. It has the most unbelievably beautiful (to my nose) smell. Even when walking around the city (Cork) you can sometimes catch a whiff of it.

Packie used to have a huge stack of cut turf leaning against the wall outside his cottage, and he was a wizard at getting the stuff to burn, under almost any conditions (there's something of a knack to it). Then he went and converted to oil central heating, the wuss!! Well, he is 93 soon...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bord_na_Móna

http://www.bnm.ie/fuels/index.jsp?&pID=306&nID=310

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Talk Peat?
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 06:48 AM

I believe the natural process of peat renewal can take thousands of years. Most of the bogs in Scotland and Ireland were formed after the last ice-age (10,000 years)!

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Talk Peat?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 06:53 AM

Just to clear up what Bonnie said: Bord na Mona manufactures turf briquettes which are on sale in most supermarkets and petrol stations etc, they also sell hopper turf, which is the stuff I mentioned as being delivered in lorry loads.

Hand/slan cut turf is the roughest looking variety (usually bigger lumps of it) and some people maintain it burns better (i.e. longer) than today's hopper turf which is compressed by machine (the hopper).

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Talk Peat?
From: GUEST,KP
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 07:05 AM

Bord na Mona Briquettes:

Peat Briquettes

These make good fuel as they are smokeless and easier to ignite than coal. The ash retains a lot of heat, and you can usually rekindle a peat fire left to die down overnight.

KP

Subject: RE: BS: Can We Talk Peat?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 08 Jan 10 - 07:44 AM

Smokeless is ofcourse relative.