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BS: Beware our troops

Donuel 31 Jan 10 - 11:12 AM
Donuel 31 Jan 10 - 11:14 AM
Donuel 31 Jan 10 - 11:20 AM
Ebbie 31 Jan 10 - 11:29 AM
Donuel 31 Jan 10 - 11:48 AM
Donuel 31 Jan 10 - 11:52 AM
Donuel 31 Jan 10 - 12:28 PM
Rapparee 31 Jan 10 - 01:04 PM
gnu 31 Jan 10 - 02:04 PM
Mrrzy 31 Jan 10 - 02:07 PM
CarolC 31 Jan 10 - 02:55 PM
GUEST,Stringsinger 01 Feb 10 - 12:04 PM
Amos 01 Feb 10 - 12:12 PM
Rapparee 01 Feb 10 - 01:53 PM
VirginiaTam 01 Feb 10 - 02:35 PM
bubblyrat 01 Feb 10 - 02:52 PM
Rapparee 01 Feb 10 - 03:59 PM
Little Hawk 01 Feb 10 - 04:44 PM
Ebbie 01 Feb 10 - 05:41 PM
mousethief 01 Feb 10 - 05:56 PM
olddude 01 Feb 10 - 06:05 PM
Ebbie 01 Feb 10 - 06:07 PM
Rapparee 01 Feb 10 - 06:11 PM
mousethief 01 Feb 10 - 06:18 PM
olddude 01 Feb 10 - 09:20 PM
Rapparee 01 Feb 10 - 10:15 PM
Little Hawk 01 Feb 10 - 11:03 PM
mousethief 01 Feb 10 - 11:12 PM
Little Hawk 01 Feb 10 - 11:23 PM
Little Hawk 01 Feb 10 - 11:36 PM
olddude 02 Feb 10 - 09:06 AM
Jack Campin 02 Feb 10 - 09:50 AM
olddude 02 Feb 10 - 09:54 AM
Rapparee 02 Feb 10 - 09:54 AM
Little Hawk 02 Feb 10 - 12:14 PM
olddude 02 Feb 10 - 01:08 PM
olddude 02 Feb 10 - 01:34 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Feb 10 - 02:59 PM
mg 02 Feb 10 - 03:23 PM
olddude 02 Feb 10 - 04:22 PM
olddude 02 Feb 10 - 04:39 PM
mg 02 Feb 10 - 05:05 PM
Jim Carroll 02 Feb 10 - 07:40 PM
olddude 02 Feb 10 - 08:08 PM
olddude 02 Feb 10 - 09:31 PM
GUEST,CrazyEddie 03 Feb 10 - 10:22 AM
Jim Carroll 03 Feb 10 - 12:33 PM
mg 03 Feb 10 - 02:22 PM
mousethief 03 Feb 10 - 02:32 PM
Jim Carroll 03 Feb 10 - 03:27 PM

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Subject: BS: Beware our troops
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Jan 10 - 11:12 AM

Why was the death penalty execution of a Iraq war veteran fast tracked? WHy so many tens of thousands of our troops commiting suicide. Why have 144 of our troops been arrested for murdering, their loved ones?
Why did the DOD buy up all the testing facilities for Depleted uranium that counted uranium inside people, and then shut them down?
First veterans were called crazy for agent Orange claims, then they were called crazy for Gulf war 1 bizarre health claims now they are crazy again regarding Gulf War 2. Why ? because the DOD does not have to treat crazy false claiments.

Why are so many of our troops commiting so many murders?

A video called Beyond Treason - valuable info for troops

To support our troops we should let them know what is happening to them behind their backs, although many of them know because they saw it with their own eyes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Jan 10 - 11:14 AM

better link

http://www.livevideo.com/video/NewMindZ/BA726BD8A8F34C97B5A294ED0EF2D7DB/beyond-treason-full-lengh-2.aspx

this is part 2


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Jan 10 - 11:20 AM

Some people claim that weapon residue is not the cause but rather high doses of Zoloft has caused troops to murder in a drug induced day dream and not know if they had done the crime. Multiple 911 calls all share a similar phrase from veterans "Everyone is dead here except me, could I have done this?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 Jan 10 - 11:29 AM

"Tens of thousands committing suicide"? Donuel, I don't believe you. Where do you get your information?


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Jan 10 - 11:48 AM

There official DOD stats then there are veteran stats then there is the truth. If you are haunted by the question you will do your own research and allow me to be a signpost. One of the better investigative sleuths here is John from Kansas.

To be honest I don't know which stat to believe either.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Jan 10 - 11:52 AM

If it is true, the back of mind says 'those that commit suicide may hear the same voices that those who end up murdering loved ones do, but they take their life instead of others. Those that commit suicide in that light are heros. I am sorry for sharing such a bizarre notion, perhaps we can allow adimin to drop this entire thread out of sight. I would not mind. Some things are too contentious to even consider.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Jan 10 - 12:28 PM

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/13/cbsnews_investigates/main3496471.shtml


120 veteran suicides a week rises since 2005
6,200 veteran suicides in 2005 alone

Diane Rehms has done shows on this too.

The Department of Defense reported this month there were 160 reported active-duty Army suicides in 2009, up from 140 in 2008.

"Active duty suicides" Now add those who are not active duty (5 a day)

By the way active duty is the easiest to cover up.


ya know even a 30 second google search is an eye opener. But it only serves to intensify a bad mystery.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Jan 10 - 01:04 PM

I go to the local VA outpatient clinic every week (at the moment) for reasons that don't concern anyone here.

The first and last questions I am asked are "Have you thought about suicide?" and then I am given a card with the VA suicide prevention talk line number on it. (If you'd like one, I've got plenty to share.)

It's no mystery: when someone is in combat the stress becomes pretty bad, not to say awful. In the past the military has taken a damned dim view of mental health problems, attaching a stigma of weakness to them.

The 'Nam vets were the first to really speak out and say, "HEY! Your so-called treatment STINKS! Our buddies are drinking themselves to death, addicted to dope, and killing themselves and you bastards aren't doing anything to help! Some fine bunch of liars you are!"

And then it was discovered that non-vets were suffering the same sort of thing! Cops were sucking on their pistol barrels. EMTs were hitting the bottle pretty hard. Nurses were misusing drugs.

And thus was discovered Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Why, they found that overtaxing a person's ability to cope with killing, with death, with things like those could actually drive someone to drink, drugs, asocial behavior, anti-social behavior, carrying weapons with them ("I slept for forty years with the a loaded gun and the light on," said Audie Murphy), withdrawal, and even suicide! Golly! Imagine that!

And THEN someone did a followup on the combat vets and you know what? They found it likely that some of the "accidents" they suffered might not have been "accidents" at all! That the inability of vets, especially Vietnam vets, to stop smoking might be PTSD linked!

My response, Donuel, is "So what else is new?" The military is trying to erase the stigma that seeking mental help is not weakness, but a damned good idea. Civilians could well emulate this -- especially the news media.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: gnu
Date: 31 Jan 10 - 02:04 PM

I cannot imagine the horror and stress.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Mrrzy
Date: 31 Jan 10 - 02:07 PM

Me neither.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 10 - 02:55 PM

Here's the whole video...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2205254052040284660&ei=ELtlS7aBKo6-rAKs6d29CA&q=beyond+treason&hl=en#


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: GUEST,Stringsinger
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 12:04 PM

It seems reasonable to assume that many of those who are programmed to kill are capable of indiscriminate taking of others lives or their own.

PTSD has been promoted by the quadruple tours of duty that Bush advocated.

In a way, the Iraq and Afghanistan forays have done more damage to human beings than just killing innocent civilians. They have created military zombies as was the case during the Vietnam War to return home to dysfunctional lives without the support of the administrations that sent them there.

If you really want to support troops, tell them to object in the first place and for those there bring 'em home.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Amos
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 12:12 PM

The training, usually, is not the overwhelming, soul-destroying part. It is the actuality of facing someone you have to kill or by whom be killed. It is the overwhelm of fearing for your very life ALL the time day after day. It is the horror of confronting mass carnage, explosions of body parts, friends' brains on your boots, and the screams of people bleeding to death from a violent collision with steel or lead.

War sucks.



A


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 01:53 PM

Amos is more right than anyone else who has posted here (except me). It's not the whole story, but it's a good part of it.

Do some research, dammit! Go visit the Mental Health Unit of a VA Hospital and talk to the psychiatrists, the social workers, the psychologists. Do some field work instead of getting your "facts" from what others have written.

THEN come around saying "Beware our troops".


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 02:35 PM

Well! This is an eye opener and goes a long way to explaining why my Dad alternated between drunk, angry and depressed most of my childhood. WWII and 2 tours in Korea. The second was when I was 4 or 5 (1962 or 63). He told of some horrors he had seen when we were kids. Mom disapproved, but being kids we just took it a cool gruesome stories.

As for Gulf War 1, I worked for a young man (he was younger than me) who had been medically discharged from Air Force captaincy. He had all kinds of immunological problems as a result of the chemicals he had been exposed to during his tour in the Gulf. Involved in some case with a number of his men who were all experiencing similar problems. He was on chemotherapy and heavy steroids to treat whatever the condition was. I remember he said Air Force would not accept any responsibility for his or his comrades illnesses.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: bubblyrat
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 02:52 PM

Same old story,year after year,war after war. My dear grandfather went through untold horrors in WW1,and when he came home,with "shell shock",and having been gassed ,what help & understanding did he get from the British Government ?? Fuck all !!
    My dear Dad flew lots of night missions over Germany in 1944-45, facing searchlights,"flak",and the ever-present threat of Luftwaffe night-fighter "aces" like Major Willhelm Herget,who had already shot down my Dad's regular pilot ,Squadron Leader Van Den Bok,on a previous occasion.The stress of "operational flying" affected my Dad for the rest of his life,and crashing in Calcutta ,with several fatalities,in 1946 ,didn't help either. Again,what help & understanding did he get from the British Government afterwards ??   Yes, Fuck all !!
                  So what's new ??


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 03:59 PM

Look after any war at the veterans. Look at the veterans after the Civil War and the number who "went bad": Frank and Jesse James, Clay Allison, the Daltons and the Youngers, to name but a few. Look at the soldiers turned loose in England and Europe following any of the many wars there.

"...When a big cannonball
Ran away with me leg...
But a surgeon then found me
And he soon staunched me blood
And they gave me an elegant leg made of wood.
They gave me a medal
And tenpence a day,
Contented with Sheila
I live on half pay."

"They collected wounded, the crippled, the maimed,
And they shipped us back home to Australia.
The armless, the legless, the blind, the insane
Those proud wounded heroes of Suvla...
...And the band played 'Waltzing Matilda'
As they carried us down the gangway.
But nobody cheered
They just stood there and stared,
Then they turned all their faces away."

"...And if you ever get back home you'll never be the same
The man that was before Vietnam can never be again
And in ten years time when you look back to weigh and count the cost
Perhaps you'll find that Vietnam gave you back more than you lost
For from it, if you gain nothing else
Perhaps you may get to know yourself.

Coda:
Roll up, roll up, and see the show
TV soldiers in a row
Hear them laugh, hear them cry
Watch them run and see them die
It's not in colour but that's alright
War's better viewed in black and white
White for us and black for them
With no grey shadows in between."

But ultimately is comes to this:

"A winter's day
In a deep and dark December;
I am alone,
Gazing from my window to the streets below
On a freshly fallen silent shroud of snow.
I am a rock,
I am an island.

I've built walls,
A fortress deep and mighty,
That none may penetrate.
I have no need of friendship; friendship causes pain.
It's laughter and it's loving I disdain.
I am a rock,
I am an island.

Don't talk of love,
But I've heard the words before;
It's sleeping in my memory.
I won't disturb the slumber of feelings that have died.
If I never loved I never would have cried.
I am a rock,
I am an island.

I have my books
And my poetry to protect me;
I am shielded in my armor,
Hiding in my room, safe within my womb.
I touch no one and no one touches me.
I am a rock,
I am an island.

And a rock feels no pain;
And an island never cries."

I know, for those weekly visits to the VA Outpatient Clinic I mentioned earlier are for PTSD treatment. Don't sympathize, don't pity -- believe it or not, it can happen to you, in the military or out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 04:44 PM

War is just a massive crime, a crime committed against the troops and civilians on both sides. It's usually done in a struggle over strategic resources, land, trade, and the balance of power between competing nations or empires. The soldiers and the people pay the price.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 05:41 PM

Every time and everywhere I speak from my heart and say that the day will come when the very idea of war will be archaic, an anachronism of the distant past, unacceptable to any civilization, I am told that I am naive and invoking Utopia.

And yet. I know that I'm right, that someday conflicts will be resolved by early negotiation and if needed, severe sanctions. War is not only the ultimate and gruesome failure, waging it is naive to the extreme.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: mousethief
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 05:56 PM

I have read about the positive delight that some people (particularly German generals) had in the thought of coming war at the brink of the Great War (WW1). I just can't be sure we'll ever be rid of this attitude (much as I'd like it to be so).

O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: olddude
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 06:05 PM

Rap
Semper fi my friend, Semper fi


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 06:07 PM

Yes, but remember that a few generations ago war was touted as a glorious experience and a good way to help a young man grow up and a way to prove one's patriotism.

Mostly we've gotten beyond that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 06:11 PM

We have, Ebbie?


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: mousethief
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 06:18 PM

Seems more like 1984 where some distant "the war" is a way to seep off excess male aggression.

O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: olddude
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 09:20 PM

Noone hates war more than me, but freedom is not free, without the military we would all be goose stepping our way across the world ..
Now how the talking heads use our military and what they use to justify action is a fair subject and has been a disgrace i think by our leaders in recent years... but that has nothing to do with the fine young men and women who put on that uniform


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 10:15 PM

My friend Kevin is a Mennonite. He is a complete pacifist...or was, until he visited Dachau. Until he learned that the French and German Mennonite Churches sent letters of welcome to Hitler (and they are bitterly ashamed of it).

Consider the 12.5 million US troops who served during WW2, the thousands who served in Korea, the 1.25 million who served in Vietnam, the hundreds of thousands who have served in the Middle East and Afghanistan. If they are so suicidal, so crazy, why are we not walking up to our ankles in blood as we step over the dead bodies?


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 11:03 PM

Sadly enough, though, the young Germans who fought in WWII were also under the very strong impression that THEY were fighting for freedom. They believed they were fighting to save Germany and all of western Europe from a vicious Communist dictatorship. That is a fact. They believed it.

Young Russians, on the other hand, believed that they were fighting to save Mother Russia from Nazi aggression (as they were, after June 22, '41). Young Italians believed that they were fighting for laudable reasons too. Young Japanese believed that they were fighting because (1) China had supposedly attacked Japan first (not true, but they believed it) and (2) America was helping China and economically strangling Japan (true...after FDR put the oil and steel embargo on Japan in early '41).

They ALL believed they were on the side of right, truth, liberty, and justice...and if any of the losers had won that war their sons and daughters living right now would BELIEVE that the soldiers who died for their country did so to secure their freedom from being trampled on by someone else in jack boots.

So, remember that you are not alone, but you have plenty of company when it comes to imagining that the last few generations of soldiers died to secure your freedom! It's a universal assumption held by the victors of all wars.

The losers don't have that luxury. They have to grow up, drop their grand illusions of moral and cultural supremacy, and face directly the fact that war is a mistake, a huge mistake, a political failure, and a tragedy for all concerned.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: mousethief
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 11:12 PM

They have to grow up, drop their grand illusions of moral and cultural supremacy, and face directly the fact that war is a mistake, a huge mistake, a political failure, and a tragedy for all concerned.

Actually it's unclear the Japanese ever did this. They certainly don't teach it to their children.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 11:23 PM

Well....yes and no. I think they very much grew up in the generation immediately after the war...the veterans and their children. They had to work very hard to restore the country, and that matures a people. The military became extremely unpopular in Japan after WWII and the whole country turned its back on militarism in a very decided way. They put their efforts into peacetime industries instead, and it served them very, very well....just as it did the postwar Germans.

Now, however, you have a young and far more affluent generation growing up in a Japan that is so far away from those WWII experiences and so steeped in modern consumerism and hi-tech that the lessons their grandparents learned have failed to register on them.

So I think there was a profound maturing process in Japan after the war...but it only held for about 30 years, maybe. Now it's being rapidly forgotten by the younger people. That would be my guess.

The Japanese, too, have only lost one great war. Europeans have gone through many generations of terrible conflict and those lessons of loss have sunk in better in Europe than I would think they have in Japan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 11:36 PM

And...just imagine how arrogant and overweening they'd be now if by some miracle they'd WON WWII in the Pacific! ;-)

You'd have to see it to believe it. They'd be running everything over there and driving half the world out of their minds with resentment and frustration...kind of like the USA does, but probably worse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: olddude
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 09:06 AM

I could never thank the men and women of great courage and substance that put on the uniform. without them, we would not have the liberty of typing these words right now. Never confuse how the screwed up political leaders abuse the power of the military with those fine people who answer the call. I don't care what nation but I am talking ours right now. When attacked, you can do several things, you can try to run away and hope it stops, you can stand there and let them kill you, or you can stop them ... me I always when with the latter. Trained people to go with the latter ... Me I would give my life for any one of them wearing the uniform for that is what they are doing for me. Now do I agree with these wars hell no, but that is not the job of the soldier, their job is to protect and defend the constitution of the US and follow their orders and they do it willingly ... they die, they suffer , for a cause greater than themselves ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 09:50 AM

Look after any war at the veterans. Look at the veterans after the Civil War and the number who "went bad": Frank and Jesse James, Clay Allison, the Daltons and the Youngers, to name but a few. Look at the soldiers turned loose in England and Europe following any of the many wars there.

In particular look at Germany after WW1. The anti-communist Freikorps (which later became the SA) was a militia of largely-unemployed veterans. Without those "men of great courage and substance" we would never have had the Nazis. (Klaus Theweleit's "Male Fantasies" is an eye-opener about their mindset).

And where did this "our" troops bullshit come from? The mercenaries Britain and the US has in the Middle East now are not mine in any sense. They're robbing, killing and torturing people I see as my friends, on behalf of monstrous corporations that are the enemies of all humanity, and they're doing it just for a paypacket. If they get a lifetime of nightmares, fuck 'em, they've earned it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: olddude
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 09:54 AM

Yes Jack and I respect your views and your right to say that. And an ocean of blood paid for by those soldiers gave you the right to say that now. Cause if they didn't you wouldn't be able to type that right now because by doing so in countries such as Iran you would be in jail or dead. It was they who gave you the right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 09:54 AM

Jack, may you be blessed with a trouble free live and sweet dreams always.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 12:14 PM

Every soldier who goes out to fight believes he is fighting to preserve his own people, his nation, his way of life, his family members, and the rights of his people to live in peace. All of them. It's a universal assumption.

After it's over the winners all get to say that the ocean of blood shed by the dying gave YOU the right to say whatever you're saying now. Another universal assumption, one that may not in fact be true at all much of the time, but it sounds marvelous.

The losers don't enjoy that luxury...but they will enjoy it the next time they go to war and "win". In the meantime, they have to suck up the sorrow and misery and go on. This is one reason I've always been rather moved by the terrible sacrifices that ordinary individuals made in a losing cause. I have some perception of what hell they must have gone through both while it was happening...and after it was over. Be assured, they DID think they were protecting their own way of life and all they held dear, and they did not think of themselves as "evil" in any way.

Who do I think of? All the Native Americans who tried, but failed to hold their lands against White invasion over 500 years of war. All the Germans, Austrians, and others on their side who fell in WWI and WWII, all the Japanese who perished in WWII, the Boers who failed in their fight for independence against the British Empire, the French who were so badly defeated by Prussians in 1870, the Spanish Republicans who lost to Franco, the Confederates who lost the American Civil War.

These were ordinary people trapped in huge events by politics. They were not (with a very few exceptions) evil people. They all lost, so they had to suck it up, rebuild their shattered land and their shattered lives, and listen to decades of propaganda from the winners about how awful they were.

It's disgusting.

Now, yes, sometimes those people served an evil or very wrongful regime. Some of them did. But was that clear to most of the young men who went out to fight for the regime? No, it wasn't. They fought for the same reasons young men everywhere fight...to protect their land, their people, their traditions, their way of life...as best they understood it at the time.

And yet the world treats them like shit for doing so after it's over. That kind of hate propaganda makes me sick. It shames those who propagate it. Maybe their smug self-satisfaction in their own righteousness will come back to bite them in the ass some day.

Given how history works, I think it's inevitable that it will. Just a question of when.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: olddude
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 01:08 PM

Point in fact LH, what was done to the native Americans is one of the great atrocities of mankind ... if they had a military that was dominate their way of life would not have ended as it has ended. so that's my point ... without a dominate military your way of life disappears ... period, it ceases to exist, because this world is an evil place and someone is always waiting to take it from you.

so disband the military and see how long you can post any messages. Because as you pointed out ... you better have a strong one or you lose your way of life, history proves it


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: olddude
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 01:34 PM

Everything we have we owe to someone else putting themselves on the line. without our police, some criminal will take everything you own. without our firemen we die when we are injured or our house burns. Without our men and women in uniform, some foreign government tells us who can live and who shouldn't as with the Nazis ..

Now is there abuse in everything sure is, but the great thing about America I think is we put our sins in the front window for everyone to see as in the case of the prison abuse in Iraq ...

Are that many people serving all perfect, heck no, you have your good and your evil in any organization. But those folk lay in the mud, lay in the sand, climb aboard a ship, fly in a jet and say no one will hurt you, I won't allow it ... I thank God for them


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 02:59 PM

"without them, we would not have the liberty of typing these words right now"
Self-deluding, flag-waving bullshit - virtually all wars since the end of WW2 have been ones of aggression and aquisition on the part of the West. They have been fought for territorial and political influence and the control of oil, and almost exclusively waged against 3rd world countries.
Where we haven't been directly involved we have poured money into some of the most monsterous regimes in history, Bartista, Pinochet, Papa Doc, Ky, Papadopoulous, the Zionists, the Saudis, the Contras.
In fighting these wars the West has indulged in large-scale war crimes (napalm, Agent Orange, phosphorous, land mines, internment without trial...) and has re-ivented the language to attempt to make these crimes acceptible - 'extreme rendition' (torture), 'collateral damage' (massacre of civilians), not forgetting good ol' 'friendly fire' (slaughtering your own side) .... but as OD says, it's acceptible as "we put our sins in the front window for everyone to see" - oh - that's all right then!!! (Sounds to me as if the Yanks consider themselves strong enough not to give two fucks what people think of them"
"Every soldier who goes out to fight believes he is fighting to preserve his own people,"
Equally bollocks - ranking soldiers are there for a whole bunch of reasons, the least of them ideology.
The army is being sold here as a career move - "join up and get a trade".... It was not too long ago that you could go into a pub in Scotland and read on the beer mat "Unemployed - join the army" - they forgot to add "and get sent to Northern Ireland or the Falklands and get blown to pieces".
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: mg
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 03:23 PM

People are really good at knowing how bad war is but they have no concept at all of a slaughter. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: olddude
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 04:22 PM

Well Jim next some someone decides to attack or even if you are in your home and someone wants to rob you .. pick up your guitar and play them a little ditty by Pete Seeger and then see what your bullshit gets ya ... it gets ya dead ... but you sit in your warm house and do your daily things while others put their life on the line to keep you safe ...and instead of thanking them you shoot off your mouth, every walk the walk JIM, I bet not .. if ya been there you would get it but since you want to let other do the job for you then I guess you would not get it ... enjoy your freedom, cause others paid for it and

have fun ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: olddude
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 04:39 PM

A soldiers job is to take orders and protect and defend the constitution. anyone have a beef with the command and Chief and how he uses those soldiers, fair enough, I have a beef myself and a big one. anyone wanting to make their comments about the soldier who puts on the uniform, well to me , they are spineless cowards who don't deserve the freedom those folks protect .. We are all living warm and fuzzy while they go into harms way willingly


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: mg
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 05:05 PM

I think the day will come when a whole lot of people will say Ooops. I think I was wrong. Where are they when we need them. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 07:40 PM

OD - "Well Jim next some someone decides to attack or even if you are in your home and someone wants to rob you "
As the most likely nation to be in the position to do this is the US - the possibilities are somewhat slim as we haven't got any oil TBTG
I can't help noticing that you failed to address a single one of my points so I have to believe that you find the US behaviour over the last half century acceptible - hardly surprising from a nation that can produce a Leiutenant Calley and elect a pychopathic moron to the position of most powerful man in the world for two terms.
I really don't want you protection when I don't know who will protect us from our protectors?
Get a grip fellers and take a look at your record!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: olddude
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 08:08 PM

Your logic hold no weight Jim, Counting the support staff there are a million people in the armed forces, there are bound to be bad ones, An Irish guy sets off a bomb in London killing a dozen civilians outside of parliament, does that make all Irish bombers. No ...

soldier take orders, If you are criticizing the leaders in Washington for unjust action, you have my attention because I am in full agreement with you ... if you are criticizing those in uniform then you are way off base. The reason we have our freedom, is because they choose to leave their quiet lives and go on a ship or a jet or stand in the front line and say "not on my watch, nothing will happen, I won't allow it" that is what those fine people do. And Washington, a disgrace how Bush and many other administrations wasted lives for unjust reasons and yet they did their job and lived up to the oath they took ... so I agree when it comes to Washington but not those in uniform.


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: olddude
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 09:31 PM

As far as other countries go I could care less if they have a military or not. Amazing how the US taxpayer has to fund protection for countries that don't want to pay for their own security. If history tells us anything it tells us that if you cannot defend your way of life you lose it plain and simple. One only has to look how the Germans rolled through Europe 70 years ago. So you don't want or need US military, most of us taxpayers would agree with ya


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: GUEST,CrazyEddie
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 10:22 AM

What if they held a war, and nobody came?


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 12:33 PM

Old Dude
Once again you have avoideed the point.
Over the last few decades America has proved itself a beligerant bully prepared to use torture, imprisonment without trial, chemical warfare, indescriminate slaughter of civilians, assasination and financial and political blackmail, all to protect your own financial and political interests. You congratualte yourselves by saying you do it publicly.
Nobody has blamed the ordinary soldier for this - it is the fault of the politicians and those like yourself who excuse them and allow them to get away with it.
"how the Germans rolled through Europe"
And if it wasn't for Pearl Harbour you would have stood and let them.
You were dragged kicking and screaming into WW2 - late - and only participated when your own interests were threatened.
As far as 'protection', from the way you have 'protected the world' so far, I think I'd rather take my chances with The Sopranos'.
As much as I hate stereotyping, so far you have come over as yet another loud-mouthed Yank.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: mg
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 02:22 PM

If they held a war and nobody came the Visigoths would come and kill everyone in sight. They would bayonette babies. They would rape 10 year old girls (no offense to the Visigoths..maybe they didn't do these things). They would throw dead bodies in the wells. They would destroy all livestock or take it. They would blow up any buildings in their way. They would turn people into their slaves.

Any more questions? mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: mousethief
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 02:32 PM

Hitler would have loved it in 1939 if nobody threw a war.

O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: BS: Beware our troops
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 03:27 PM

"the Visigoths would come and kill everyone in sight"
I'll bet the Visigoth generals were telling their men exactly the same thing about their enemies, and, judging by some of the correspondence on this thread, they would have been right.
Jim Carroll


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