Is it Ok to sing from a song book?

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 05:58 PM

"So, everyone's happy - or not? "

Looks like . . . .

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 07:24 PM

Crow Sister, I don't think anyone who has posted in this thread has recommended that everyone should sing all the songs together at a song circle or that the songs in a book should be the only ones sung. We have talked about the existence of such groups, but I've said I find them frustrating and I think everyone else who's posted here agrees.

What some of us are saying is that ONE type of song/singing consists of a group of people singing together, preferably with harmonies, and singing the same words (unless someone's doing a canticle or counterpoint).   There are some exquisite songs that call for several or more people singing together all the way through and really lose something when done as solos or the like.   To preclude that type of song and then say all the options are there is just not accurate.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 07:45 PM

Mary, yes, the key may be what the originators of a group want -- e.g., some song circles specify "bring Rise Up Singing" or have a prefab book of lyrics/chords for everyone to sing from, and others may specify "no books -- but there are many situations where nothing is specified ahead of time and/or people who aren't there at the outset don't know there is a set format.   Most of the song circles at music camps are not very structured and even may evolve as people come and go from the circle. And as I've said before, there often are not enough suitable spaces for a dozen different small groups to do different types of song circles.

I'm not sure why lyric sheets handed out -- especially ones print that can be read from 3 feet away -- would be more objectionable than a book that's hard to read without burying your head in it, but I guess that's just a matter of individual preference.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 07:58 PM

Pip Radish,
I'm actually not one of those who made a big deal out of the issue of excellence in performance, but several people have done.    My own feeling is that music - especially shared music - has many benefits to body and soul even when it's done very amateurishly and even when some of the singing leaves a lot to be desired in terms of pitch control, lyrics sung without flubs, etc.   It's camaraderie, it's cognitive and emotional stimulation, and it's good for the immune system, etc.

But when a singaround or song circle is done in a commercial establishment and is meant to draw in or keep customers besides the singers & instrumentalists, I very much understand how bad singing or very mediocre renditions of songs why it's important for the singing and playing to be pretty good. It's not just for the regard in which folk music is held but, more immediately, that the group may lose their singaround venue if other paying customers are leaving in droves when the singing starts.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 08:11 PM

Jim, you say "A book is for repetition not creativity - simple as that."

How so? How does the fact that the lyrics are on a sheet in front of you prevent you from making up your own harmonies or maybe even counterpoints (for some kinds of songs)? If people are playing instruments, how does a lyric sheet prevent musicians from throwing in their own creative licks? And how does it prevent singers from putting a lot of feeling into the song?


(OK, it's hard to read lyrics in Rise Up Singing, much less follow their chords, and pay attention to anything else such as interpreting the song, etc., but if you basically know a song but just need a lyric sheet to glance at to jog your memory occasionally, that's a horse of a different color.)

As for lyrics themselves, I'm not so sure "creative lyric recitation" is always such a good thing - any more than "creative spelling" is.   And I really don't relish "creativity" in the sense of several people making up different lyrics and singing them simultaneously.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 08:40 PM

the notion of a one size fits all book that everyone sings the same songs from all together, reminds me of 'mass-processed' folk music (rather than the more traditionally processed stuff). And for my own part, I'm thoroughly glad that we don't have it here.

We did, once. The "community singing" movement was huge in the UK before radio became omnipresent, with group singalongs reaching stadium-sized proportions. You must have seen things like the News Chronicle Songbook or the Francis and Day book - archaeological remains of that movement.

And from a much earlier period: broadsides and chapbooks were printed in large enough numbers to be the main source of income for a whole class of people in every large city in the British Isles from the 16th century on. Popular editions of songs by Dibdin and Burns were printed in landfill-choking volume from the middle of the 18th century. People didn't spend their pennies on these for no purpose, they were USED.

There is a very old and very widespread tradition of singing and playing from print, and there is absolutely nothing to be ashamed of in being part of it. The numbers of people doing it must have been MANY times greater than the tiny minority of travellers maintaining a purely oral tradition.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Soldier boy
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 09:45 PM

As I mentioned before. I like singarounds which are fairly 'informal' where friends and folkies; often on the 'fringe' of a festival, will gather together for a good old sing, long into the night. I am not approaching this subject from the view point of the professional folk singer, although I fully note and respect all their comments and suggestions on this thread.

Such sessions, more often than not, are held in the informal and relaxed atmosphere of a British pub, therefore a fair consumption of alcohol is the norm and as the night wears on alcohol can start to interfere with the memory process and people can start to stumble and forget the words of a song.

Folk people in the U.K are generally fairly sensible drinkers so I am not talking about people getting completely rat a**** but rather about people who just become a little 'addled' and lose their way as the night goes on (bless 'em).

This is when the old song book (U.K style) comes into it's own and can become a saviour (in my own opinion).
At least then people can just glance at the words and get back on track when they forget the words.

In my song book are some songs that I associate with certain individuals as 'their song' and that I would never sing in their company. It's not that they have written it or anything like that; but it is a song that they often sing and are 'known for' it or are associated with and which they usually sing from memory without the aid of a song book.

So I would never, out of courtesy, even think about singing 'their' song when they are present. It's all about some kind of folk 'etiquette' or polite sensitivity which I am sure you are all very well aware of and take careful notice of.

The trouble is that too often now, those certain individuals (especially as they get older) will have a lapse of memory and forget a verse or lose their way completely in a song.

This is often upsetting and embarrasing for them and a source of great frustration to them and their audience when a popular song with everyone in full flow suddenly grinds to a halt, and I find that it happens far too often nowadays.

So it is precisely for this reason that I have faithfully noted 'their' song in my song book so that I can follow their song and 'PROMPT' them when they falter.

This has happened so many times now and on every occasion they have thanked me for my help and are very pleased that I had 'their' song in my book and was able to prompt them so they could continue and save the song. They have never complained or chastised me and they really have been grateful and pleased by my interjection.

It's only, after all, like a 'prompter' in the wings of a theatrical production (as someone said earlier) who is there to prompt the actor when they forgot their lines.

So perhaps song books aren't all that taboo and shouldn't be burnt on the bonfire of some kind of modern day perceived tradional propriety or some kind of misconceived proffesional snobbery.

I am sorry to use the term 'snobbery' but I can't think of a better term at the moment.

Surely the main thing is to sing the song; to breath life into it and bring it alive and deliver it as close as you can to the way it's creator intended, whether it is note and word perfect, or simply pretty close and that will do very well, thankyou.

From my experience when I have observed people singing from a song book (myself included) they have not sung the song like a bland and lifeless recital with their head stuck into the book but have injected life into it and have done the song full justice and their audience has been completely satisfied.

I do actually believe and support the argument that the songs you feel strongly about should be learnt and memorised and I have promised on this thread to make the effort to do this. I also think that the songs themselves deserve such loving and willing attention.

But, finally, I also believe that there is still a role for the song book as a personal prompt and as a valuable and appreciated prompt to friends and close associates on the occasions when they falter and also to be shared so that other (often new songsters) can join in.

So please don't throw the song book out just yet. It could just be a case of throwing out the baby with the bath water!!

Only time will tell.

Chris

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 11:21 PM

Soldier Boy: [[As I mentioned before. I like singarounds which are fairly 'informal' where friends and folkies; often on the 'fringe' of a festival, will gather together for a good old sing, long into the night. ]]
Speaking of late hours and alcohol, this is a bit OT, but related. Back about 1963 I did my first solo at a "hootenanny." It was in Greenwich Village at Gerde's Folk City. I had signed up for a slot about 7:00 PM, but as the evening wore on, they kept putting the pros (e.g., Josh White's daughter Beverly), who were on break from their paid gigs, into the lineup. So by the time I actually got to go on, it was about 1 AM and I'd had 5 gin and tonics.   To be blunt about it, I sucked!   No, I wasn't nervous after all that hootch. But I slurred my words, messed up the lyrics of whatever song I was singing, and probably botched the guitar chords too.
But the audience was quite sloshed too. So they either didn't notice or didn't care about the multiple flaws in my performance.   Suffice it to say that the experience actually boosted my confidence to the point where I did another "hootenanny" ("open mic" in today's parlance) a week later without any alcohol whatsoever -- and without stage fright.

I guess the point is that whether your audience expects or cares about perfection depends a lot on the venue and various other factors. Sometimes if everyone's having a grand ol' time, that's enough.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 03:49 AM

"Jim, you say "A book is for repetition not creativity - simple as
that."
Can people interpret while reading from a page? I've never seen it happen.
Harmonies, counterpoint - if that's your choice - surely you emabark on these when you have the technicalities under your belt, not when you are anxious about remembering the words and tune? And don't harmonies and counterpoint imply singing as a group rather than solo singing; It is very much the latter I am referring to.
If we are talking about group singing, you have the added problem of working out the breathing and phrasing, otherwise the end product is a ragged mess.
I was never a great fan of The Watersons, but I was always impressed by the amount of work they must have put in beforehand to produce the sound they did.
The more I read on this thread the more I come to the opinion that we are talking unsatisfactory compromise in place of work.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 04:41 AM

From: Don Firth - PM
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 05:24 PM

Interesting observation, David. Do you have any idea as to why the judge would feel that way?

After all, in the two music schools I have attended, it was expected that student recitalists have their material memorized.

Don Firth

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Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 05:28 PM

"I think it's good to encourage the folk tradition of performing by memory, but accept the use of songbooks."
Why?
Classical music is not folk song.
Some years ago Yehudi Menuin, arguably the world's best classical violinist, presented a television on Scots fiddle-playing.
The climax of the programme was when he joined in one of the great traditional players - half way through the set Menuin laid down his fiddle and confessed he wasn't up to the creative virtuosity of the Scot.
A book is for repetition not creativity - simple as that.
Jim Carroll...I went on to say "ANOTHER genre" (I like the differences), Jim; and Don - it was a while ago, but I think that classical-music judge argued all the time spent committing to memory could have been better used working on the mood/feeling of the piece..?

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Artful Codger
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 08:15 AM

Jim: One of the marked differences between lyrics and tunes is that lyrics are seldom improvised whereas tunes commonly are. And yes, even solo, part of my improvisation or tune variation is to intermix what are essentially "harmony" notes to make the underlying harmonic structure more evident and complete, so it's not amiss to talk about harmony in a solo-voice scenario.

I begin playing with melodic variations as soon as I've got the basic melody in mind. That's a LO-O-O-ONG time before I've done lyrics memorization. And from line to line, verse to verse, I apply variations in melody, phrasing, expression--virtually every musical facet. Some variations are small, some major; some pre-planned, most decided upon the spur of the moment. So your assumption that reading lyrics must inhibit musical creativity and improvisation is, in my experience, flat wrong.

Lyric improvisation I purposefully avoid, since I work out my favored wordings quite carefully beforehand--substitutions tend to detract rather than improve. If a useful wording variant occurs to me while singing, I'll jot it down, and if upon reflection I consider it a desirable improvement, I'll make it a permanent part of my lyrics sheet. I do this even for memorized songs, because when I sing something that sounds weaker than it should, it's often because I've strayed from what I worked out as the "best" wording. Creativity, like "progress", is not reliably forward-moving; one must know the most appropriate times to apply it.

Granted, most people don't expressly work up their own lyric versions; they just learn and parrot some printed source or the version from their favorite recording. Whether they're reading the lyrics or recalling them from memory, the fixity of an "authorized version" is the same (perhaps more now than in the past). Nothing prevents a person from replacing a line or adding another verse--well, nothing but copyrights.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 08:28 AM

Quote from Mike Waterson, Jim - We don't do harmony, we sing in unison. It's just that occasionaly we all use different tunes. Maybe there was not as much work as you thought:-)

I just want to make clear that although I don't use a songbook and don't like the performance of people using them as much as those that don't - and remember I am talking PERFORMANCE here, not just singing - I am in no way dictationg that people should not use them Fine, use them, go ahead. Some people will think a little less of your performance but is that doesn't matter to you - why worry?

I hate the term folk nazi as well. Godwins law should be enforced and whoever first uses it in any thread should be banned form the Mudcat until they have shown their bum off Blackpool tower in atonement...

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 09:06 AM

Having read Artful's comment -
"ALL THAT JAZZ
If folkies must test their technique by improvising on/"doing something with" a traditional tune, then, in my opinion, they should begin their performance with a run-through of just the top-line melody – otherwise, there would be no oral-tradition of tunes!" (here).

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 09:32 AM

A C
"lyrics are seldom improvised...."
May be true nowadays, but certainly wasn't once. That's why we have upward of 200 versions of Barbara Allen.
Ballad scolar David Buchan suggested that there were no set texts, rather plots and commonplaces, and the singers recomposed them each time they sang them.
Point taken re Waterson's Dave, thanks - not my area of knowledge.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 10:17 AM

"May be true nowadays, but certainly wasn't once."

It only happens when you *don't* use a lyric sheet - I do it at home all the time when I'm going through the process of learning the story behind a song. I sing along to myself, improvisiong verses where my memory for the lyrics is faulty. In public it happens when you need to improvise a lyric to the story, when you've muffed the lyrics you've memorised. It's much easier to do in private than in public thougfh!

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 10:31 AM

Can people interpret while reading from a page? I've never seen it happen.

I can do it. Any singer of classical music can do it. I've seen Cathal McConnell do it. Get out a bit more and listen.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 11:13 AM

Of course some singers are able to put across a good performance while singing from a book. In my experience it is unusual for good singers to need a book, and there are usually special circumstances why it's being used. And if it's still a good performance, the book doesn't matter.

However, let's be honest, in the majority of cases the people using books are not good performers. All too often the book doesn't actually help their performance - they may not forget their words (assuming they don't lose their place) but by concentrating on reading the lyrics they don't pay sufficient attention to other aspects of their performance.

If they're going to become better performers they need to focus more on their presentation and delivery, which means they should be solid on the words (and chords if they're accompanying themselves). If they continue to rely on the book as a crutch they'll continue to turn out poor performances, which is no good for the audience and probably no good for them.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 11:36 AM

Jack (C) - not wishing to nitpick or anything, just a genuine question I cannot imagine the answer to. What is the point of reading from a book is you are improvisiing anyway?

DeG

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 11:44 AM

What is the point of reading from a book is you are improvisiing anyway?

Because you're only improvising certain aspects of the song - expressive and melodic details, not the storyline or the bulk of the text.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: RTim
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 11:53 AM

When one is an unaccompanied singer - There is NOTHING worse than suddenly being frozen in silence because the line from the song is just not there!
If you play an instrument while singing, there is always an easy get out, AND you have something to HELP you (the tune) to find the right word or two.

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 12:06 PM

When one is an unaccompanied singer - There is NOTHING worse than suddenly being frozen in silence because the line from the song is just not there!

True - and it has happened to me (I suspect it's happened to everyone). And if you keep a crib-sheet handy you'll never have that experience. But you'll never have the experience of getting all the way through a song unaided, either.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 01:15 PM

And I thought singing was supposed to be fun. I expect to have fun at a folk club, there is always something to laugh at - mainly the oddballs you find there, and even more so the prats waiting to find fault!!!

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: sciencegeek
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 01:26 PM

Fast approaching the end of my fifth decade, I find that I just don't memorize verses as easily as I did twenty years ago... yeesh.

So, I've started printing out lyrics to serve as my "backup". Oldtimers can really suck... lol.

But I guess what you need to do is ask yourself what it is you want to accomplish. If you want to share the experience of singing a song - then do what it takes to get the job done. Use the book, but maybe try to lean on it less and less if you can.

When I'm in performance mode, I like to make eye contact with the audience and make them part of the experience. At sessions I'll tease some of the older folks to get them joining in the chorus... at least to mouth the words. If I spaz on a line - well let's laugh it off together. If I use a sheet - then I let them know the brain ain't what it used to be & try to use it as little a possible.

If you are at a group that frowns on this, then they are the one with the problem, not you... but it still makes things a bit uncomfortable.

It takes all sorts to make the world, but that doesn't mean you have to be like everyone else or hang around where you don't feel good about it.   If the folks you sing with aren't making a fuss, then relax... but see if you can use the aids less and less. It does improve the experience for yourself.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 01:39 PM

Thanks, Jack. Still don't undertand it but that is my fault - not yours.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 06:46 PM

Fast approaching the end of my fifth decade

um, m3 t00...

But I shouldn't really talk on this topic, because I've never had any trouble memorising songs - the words just snag like burrs. I could probably still sing you a good chunk of the Gentle Giant oeuvre if prompted, and I haven't listened to them since about 1976.

Looking through the window can you tell me what you see, you sure you're really seeing what is meant to be, a glass, a mirror to reflect what I conspire, a vision, image, I desire...

(And people wonder where punk came from.)

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Soldier boy
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 10:01 PM

Thanks very much sciencegeek, you make a lot of sense.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Artful Codger
Date: 13 Feb 10 - 11:28 PM

sciencegeek: If you want to share the experience of singing a song - then do what it takes to get the job done. Use the book, but maybe try to lean on it less and less if you can.

Yes! That's a wise and reasonable policy. I'd put it a bit more assertively: strive to reduce your dependence.

When learning a song, I mostly refer to the sheet before or after singing, either to get the words in mind, to fill what I totally blanked on or to ensure that what I sang was correct--I seldom sing directly from the page. I maximally exercise my recall, using sheets as a last resort. When "performing", mostly I don't use sheets at all, and when I do, I refer to them as little as I must. Obviously, one has to read line by line when cold-reading, but there should be good reasons (yes, there are some) for choosing such a song to sing. Otherwise, you might need to refer to the lyrics, but you should only do so to prevent lapsing; you shouldn't be reading line by line as a general practice.

And Pip is right (if you ignore the nevers): finding that you actually can sing straight through without the safety net is liberating and builds confidence. Blanking is NOT the worst thing that can happen to a singer: there's also skipping or repeating verses, flubbing the tune, Freudian slips, choking up, sour notes, dropped trays, open flies, hecklers, beer bottles to the forehead.... You survive, you learn to cope--and you learn what to do when it happens again (as it will).

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 02:21 AM

"if you keep a crib-sheet handy you'll never have that experience. But you'll never have the experience of getting all the way through a song unaided, either."

Not necessarily.   Having the crib sheet handy doesn't mean you will use it.

I think I'm not alone in having the experience that, if I am the least bit unsure of my mastery of the lyrics of a song (e.g., in another language) and I have a very large-print lyric sheet or cue card visible where I could easily glance at it with hardly anyone noticing, I often can do the song without actually using that printed page whatsoever -- whereas if I don't have that 'crutch' available the fear of blanking out on a line actually makes that more likely to happen.
It's not unlike the trapeze or tightrope artist working with or without a net. Having the net doesn't mean you'll fall into it, but it may provide the confidence needed to stay aloft.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 03:14 AM

Oh, and BTW, I'm not suggesting that everyone or anyone needs the "safety net" all, or even most, of the time. Just that when one is there it doesn't necessarily mean you're actually falling and letting it catch you.


One aspect of this discussion is especially interesting to me as an instrument player. It's argued that the use of books or lyric sheets interferes with eye contact with the audience.   Leaving aside the case of singing with one's eyes closed, what I find interrupts my audience eye contact is more often my having to look down at the neck of my guitar than my having to glance at a lyric sheet.   It's not so much a matter of whether I know the song or not. It's just that in certain tricky runs or when I play "up the neck," I haven't overlearned the guitar work to the point where I can forgo glancing at my left hand and the guitar.   Some very good instrumentalists look at their hands and instruments a lot while playing; some don't.
To me, what interferes with my performing as an entertainer and breaks my connection with the audience is having to check out where my left hand is.    But I don't see much hue and cry about how amateurish it is to not be able to play all your instrumentals without looking.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 03:48 AM

A question springs into my mind about all this.
How do singers feel about their songs while they are singing them?
The most common experience we got from the field-singers we interviewed was that they saw them; "It's like sitting in the cinema", one singer told us.
Walter Pardon set the songs in his local area and he could provide us with descriptions of all the characters in the songs. We have an amusing recording of him describing what he 'looks at' when he's singing; "Down my nose....."
Irish singer Tom Lenihan the same - and the Travellers.
I know this to be the case with other singers. In the U.S. The Rounder CD of Mrs Texas Gladden has a track where she describes in some detail the step-by-step progress of Mary Hamilton to her execution.
In a number of cases where we've discussed this with singers they have said that they deliberately close their eyes to achieve this effect.
When I was singing regularly it was something I strove for - it didn't always happen, but when it did it stayed with you for a long time. Part of the preparation for singing the song was to create pictures of the songs in your minds-eye.
I am getting the impression here of people who consider it the pinnacle of achievement to arrive at the end of the song without dropping the ball. This surely means that singers are not experiencing their songs; it sounds more like a technical exercise of getting from A to Z rather than an act of enjoyment.
I really don't believe that failing memory is an excuse unless dementia has begun to set in.
Tom Lenihan was not noted by people who knew him as having a great memory - good, but not phenomenal. Yet, when into his eighties, we've recorded him singing a song which he had not thought about for forty years, without a single slip.
On Friday we went to the 100th birthday calebration organised for one of the singers we recorded some years ago. When we left she was still singing, and the love she had for her songs shone through her years.
I asked earlier, can people enjoy and experience their songs while reading them or worrying about remembering them. I never received a reply, so I took the answer to be no - that it was enjoyment enough to get through them; that's the impression I am left with anyway.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 06:03 AM

I asked earlier, can people enjoy and experience their songs while reading them or worrying about remembering them. I never received a reply, so I took the answer to be no

You never got a reply because most of us have given up trying to persuade you. You've taken a position of patronizing arrogance that no experience and no facts could shift. When you implicitly accuse people like me of lying because we have contrary experience, we aren't likely to bother arguing the point with you again. We'll just let you rot in your own fantasy world.

It's massively destructive to insist that everybody has to meet the standards you want to impose before ever opening their to sing in the presence of another human being. You probably believe mothers should have a City & Guilds certificate in balladry before singing a lullaby to their babies. If you're insisting that nobody with lower performance skills than Walter Pardon should ever be allowed to sing (and your postings are loaded with moralistic language about "allowed" and "excused") you are helping consign the corpus of traditional song to oblivion.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 06:15 AM

Jack - as far as I am aware I have not accused anybody of lying.
I have presented my opinion the best I can based on my own experiences as a singer and by passing the information we have recorded from field singers, who I believe are the experts - not the holders of City and Guilds Certificates.
The only 'standards' I have asked for are basic ones required of anybody who chooses to perform the work of others publicly, if they are going to show any respect to that work.
It is your posting that exudes arrogance and insult - have a nice day.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 06:45 AM

As a singer having age, medical conditions and medicines working against my cognition and memory this thread makes me very uncomfortable. I have to rely on printed words, except for a very few songs learned long ago. All the practice in the world now does not help me learn a new song fully. And even when I think I have one down, lack of confidence screws me in a performance situation.

So now I don't want to go out to sing in sessions because I don't have the same functionality as others.   I feel ashamed that I have to either use my song book or bore people to death with the same handful of tired memorised songs. Because of some responses on this thread and others, I feel I have nothing of value to offer.

If I were a paid singer (which I can never be due to reasons stated above) I would not perform from the book. But as an audience member, I have no truck with any performer (paid or not) who does rely on printed words. I am more concerned with whether they and/or the songs they sing are engaging.

Often the content/story of the song itself, though it may be enhanced by a very good performer, is enough to keep me interested, regardless of the skill of said performer.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 07:47 AM

"So now I don't want to go out to sing in sessions because I don't have the same functionality as others.   I feel ashamed that I have to either use my song book or bore people to death with the same handful of tired memorised songs. Because of some responses on this thread and others, I feel I have nothing of value to offer."

Tut tut.. don't be so sensitive you daft banana! ;-)

If you scan through this thread I think you'll find that actually it's only an 'ickle smattering of hard-core traddies who object to other people using prompts. And while they're entitled to express their opinions, their opinions (however 'learned') are no more valid than anyone else's!

As I said before, I've heard both fabulous and poor renditions of songs by people using a prompt (actually rather more of the former than the latter). At an amateur level like the average song session, *no-one* aught to feel they need to be able to perform like a pro'.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 07:53 AM

Anyway, you know how well you sing and how much people love to hear you.. x

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Dennis the Elder
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 08:35 AM

Folk music and singing is alive and beautiful, it needs all who participate, those that need help and those that dont.
If everone starts from perfection where is there to go and what is there to achieve?
Even if perfection has been achieved there is a time in our lives when it deserts us. I never got there, Virginia please keep singing.
Jack you have hit a nail firmly on its head.
If we all had the short sighted view of Jim Carroll folk music would wither and die.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 08:36 AM

VT, I think most people accept there are circumstances when a songbook is necessary, perhaps because of genuine memory problems or because an artist has been called upon to perform a particular song at short notice.

Where it should be discouraged is where there are no good reasons, where a singer has simply said, "Oh, I can't remember songs" when there is no medical reason why they shouldn't, and what they mean is they haven't put in the time and effort required. In my experience, I'm afraid, that's nearly always coupled with a poor performance.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Artful Codger
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 08:45 AM

I posted a rather lengthy reply to Jim, but the Mudgremlins ate it, so more briefly...

Yes, even when I'm reading lyrics, I can and do enjoy both the song (with rich mental imagery), the singing experience and satisfaction of doing a bit particularly well or getting through a shaky spot--all simultaneously. The experience of the song is still so powerful that I not infrequently start to choke up.

I don't contest that source singers build rich mental images; I do contest that that is either all they're doing or that reading prevents that. In fact, when we read, we tend to build images with all sorts of details the author never mentioned (and I often have some background music running through my head at the same time, as well as stray thoughts darting about). We aren't as mentally limited as you seem to believe.

Reading lyrics tends to occur in bursts: a phrase, a line, a sentence gets buffered at a speed much faster than it takes to sing them. And if you've semi-memorized the lyrics, a glance may be all you need to keep you going quite a while.

Most mental processes in singing are reliable and quick--you decide on a note or nuance and your body takes over to produce it. But recall is annoyingly inconstant: sometimes you search and recall is instant, other times it takes a bit of time or extra cues, and other times you just blank.

The memories of source singers are not always impressive, as shown by the fragmentary versions and lapses reflected in the songs that have been collected--one reason collectors often had to collate versions to get a complete one. Collectors are also selective about source singers (they're source singers because they have a facility for remembering songs), and singers are selective about the songs they sing for collectors: they don't sing their shakier ones. So your sampling is not representative of what normal people with normal memories can manage.

Source singers are also not trained to examine their mental processes, so of course when asked they only describe the most notable thing that happens--and the sort of thing they assume you want to hear about. They don't describe the internal dialog or the myriad decisions they're making at the same time. I've trained, as both a Buddhist and a hypnotist, to examine the mental processes of myself and others on a more detailed level, so I'm not just guessing, like you are, at what is and is not possible for the brain to handle. You keep leaping to these grand pronouncements despite us telling you, from our own direct experience, they just ain't so. Open your ears and mind.

Jim: The only 'standards' I have asked for are basic ones required of anybody who chooses to perform the work of others publicly, if they are going to show any respect to that work.

Utter twaddle, and we've repeatedly explained why. The requirements are illusory and failing to adhere to your expectations is no indication of disrespect for these works. If you interpret it as such, that's your problem.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 08:50 AM

OK, let's ignore the negative crap and get to something more useful.

Obviously you can perform effectively using a book. Lots of people do it all the time. So, HOW do you use a book effectively?

* Sightreading a text off the page is a lot harder. Don't try that to start with - get the basics of what the song is about, what rhetorical strategies it's using, and obviously know the tune.

* Don't let the book get between you and the audience. You should be able to take in at least a couple of lines at a time, usually a whole stanza, so glance down and then out at the room.

* Don't be coy about the book. It's a prop. Performance poets (who nearly always use books, even though they're reading their own work) typically brandish them like stage swords. (Cathal McConnell is worth watching in action when he's using a book, he can make it look like a wizard's magic staff radiating en-fun-ment spells). You can move a book a lot more than a guitar, so it has more dramatic potential. Trying to use a book AND a guitar at the same time will usually reduce you to a performing statue, but then guitars have that effect on most amateur self-accompanied singers anyway.

* If your eyesight is any way problematic at arm's length, print out a copy in a typeface you can read fluently. Comic Sans is a good choice for most people.

* If you are expecting accompaniment by yourself or somebody else, or use a pitchpipe/moothie for pitch, write down the key you use at the start.

* Don't use abbreviations or cues written in your own private code. You will forget what they mean. Write the song out in full.

* Never shuffle paper. You should always know what you're going to sing well before you start (or have a couple of alternatives if something intervenes) and you should know where to find it INSTANTLY.

* No crappy apologies in advance like "I haven't sung this for years". The point of your book is precisely to make sure that that doesn't matter. Just go for it with no explanations.

More?

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: RTim
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 09:00 AM

I think everyone should calm down and remember that this Forum is only a means for us to express an opinion, NOT to browbeat every one into agreeing with you.
It seems that some are simply trying to convince with their total volume of mail, but not say anything new!
Some like books - great.
Some hate books - great.
Some don't really care - great.

Lets us just ALL enjoy singing - Great.

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: doncatterall
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 09:10 AM

Well said Tim

As I, and others, have said previously and in my opinion if a song is worth singing it's worth learning. However I would not walk out of or stop going to sessions because someone relies on a "crutch". At our club singers now apologise to me for singing from the words because they know my opinion but I would rather hear the song than them not singing because they can't get their head round it.

This Thursday I intend singing Mike Waterson's "A Stitch in Time". Its a song I've known and wanted to sing for years but never got the words into my head. I've been working on it for the past week or so and all verses bar one are now pretty secure.

I'll let you know how I get on - wish me luck!!

Don

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 10:59 AM

"If we all had the short sighted view of Jim Carroll folk music would wither and die."
Hate to be the bearer of bad news but the music is withering and dying.
During the last year or so I have read and been part of discussions on whether it is necessary to be able to hold a tune, or whether ballads are too long, how an evening of just folk songs is boooooring, whether audiences should sing along with the main singer without being invited to do so..........
Now we apparently have a discussion on whether it is necessary to commit a song to memory before you sing it.
All of these are comparatively recent 'innovations' to the folk scene and all are part of the process of decay as far as I'm concerned.
The basic standards I have suggested are that a singer has put in enough work to sing in tune and to remember the words enough to communicate them to an audience. If that is too much then the folk scene deserves is worthy of the disrespect that it is given
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 11:20 AM

"If we all had the short sighted view of Jim Carroll folk music would wither and die."

Oh poo! That's an utterly unfair statement.
Jim has a very egalitarian approach to folk song.
Collecting and disseminating material on traditional songs is kind of a key thing to ensuring folk music *doesn't* wither I'd say!
Plus he was one of about three people on this forum, advocating the public benifits of an online sound archive of field recordings.
In fact I think he's one of the few here that recognises (shocking as it may be!) that not everyone has a nice leather bound copy of Bronson handy, or the spare change for a shelf full of 'Voice of the People'.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 11:41 AM

A number of years ago I recorded a box player who also sang and requested that his music was displayed in front of him, It required two music stands with the pages cellotaped to make one long sheet. He complained that the paper was shiny and refeflected the studio lights. I photocopied it onto matt paper and when the signal was given to start, he sang and played the whole piece with his eyes closed!

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 01:09 PM

Digressing slightly, I find what works for me when I'm playing tunes is to have the music in front of me & sight-read as far as possible for the first go through, and then shut my eyes so I can concentrate on where I'm putting my fingers. (Obviously this only works if I know the tune reasonably well already.)

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: sciencegeek
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 01:20 PM

Well thank you, Soldierboy. As one Chris to another - and this goes for Virginia Tam as well- think on what brought you to the music in the first place.

If you only wanted perfect renditions - then you could stick to buying recordings - almost dated myself by saying records, lol- and sit in your room and listen to them. But that is pretty lifeless and, while it was my only option for many years, is not what gives me the greatest pleasure. I WANT TO SING!!!!

And not just sing along with the "record". That's karoake. I want to share the experience. Otherwise, why bother with sessions and ceilidhs, picking parties and singarounds? Music comes from people and is meant to be shared with people. I may sing to my critters, but I'm pretty sure they don't really give a hoot about the songs. They care more about whether they get some goodies to eat.

But if I find a grand song that I can share with others; well, that's a whole different ballgame. sometimes they only want to hear the old standards, but just maybe this "new" song will strike that magic chord and practically compell them to fall in love with it - just as you did.

Or maybe I just like listnning to own voice and feel awkward about doing it alone by myself in the room.... :D joke, joke

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 01:27 PM

Jim Carroll - "The only 'standards' I have asked for are basic ones required of anybody who chooses to perform the work of others publicly, if they are going to show any respect to that work."

So you're saying it can be OK for someone to use a lyric sheet -- as long as they're singing their own compositions or nobody's listening?   Otherwise what they're doing is sub-par?

I think Virginia Tam made some excellent rebuttals to that.

VirginiaTam - "... All the practice in the world now does not help me learn a new song fully. And even when I think I have one down, lack of confidence screws me in a performance situation.

So now I don't want to go out to sing in sessions because I don't have the same functionality as others.   I feel ashamed that I have to either use my song book or bore people to death with the same handful of tired memorised songs. Because of some responses on this thread and others, I feel I have nothing of value to offer.

... [A]s an audience member, I have no truck with any performer (paid or not) who does rely on printed words. I am more concerned with whether they and/or the songs they sing are engaging.

Often the content/story of the song itself, though it may be enhanced by a very good performer, is enough to keep me interested, regardless of the skill of said performer."

Main points:
1. needing to use a printed page does not imply lack of rehearsal, failure to connect with the story and feeling of the song, or inability to interpret and deliver the song well
2. not everyone in the audience gives a hoot whether they see a book or page on a music stand or in a singer's hand
3. songs can be appreciated for their melodies, their lyrics, the story, etc., even when they are not sung by a great singer or performer, even when certain "standards" aren't met.

And I'd add that, as a songwriter, I would be delighted to have other people perform my songs with a song sheet in hand.   I'll bet many, if not most, songwriters would rather have their compositions shared by means of books or song sheets than not sung by others. (Bob Dylan may be an exception, but I'll bet "Anon" and that "Trad" guy don't give a hoot.)

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 01:30 PM

Yes, it's perfectly OK to sing from a songbook, because there are no rules, not even in English Folk Music...and if your audience is filled with pedantic sorts who up and leave, well good riddance to 'em for being so up their own folk songs in the first place.

There ARE no Rules!

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 01:34 PM

Bravo, Artful!

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 14 Feb 10 - 01:54 PM

And kudos to you too, Jack C!

Those are excellent points about how to use books or song sheets proudly and effectively (as opposed to writing crib notes on your hand like some politicians).

I'm so glad you brought up poetry and dramatic readings.   I saw and heard Basil Rathbone do a poetry reading once, where he did just as you mentioned: held a book in hand, sometimes waving it about with a flourish, but all so expertly that what stands out in my memory of the 'concert' was his dramatic and/or comic delivery of the poems.   And I've seen whole plays delivered as "dramatic readings," with the actors sitting in a semi-circle, scripts in front of them, acting out the whole dialog, with gestures, relating to each other and the audience -- very professionally and effectively.

Howard, while it's true that a lot of people in singarounds and song circles are hack amateurs and sometimes rely on a book when they could, with a little effort, learn a song,
I can't accept your assertion that "in the majority of cases the people using books are not good performers."
At least in Portland and Seattle, in the jams and song circles I frequent, there are many accomplished, excellent musicians and singers -- some semi-professional (having commercial CDs, doing paid gigs, but having a "day job" too -- who routinely have a loose-leaf binder open in front of them when they are presenting or leading a song.   
The performance -- including the backup singing by the group, who may also have a song sheet in hand -- often sounds so good that it could be included on a live-performance CD.