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BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day

GUEST,mg 08 Mar 10 - 07:03 PM
Ed T 08 Mar 10 - 08:02 PM
Amos 08 Mar 10 - 08:04 PM
Joe_F 08 Mar 10 - 08:27 PM
artbrooks 08 Mar 10 - 08:54 PM
Ed T 08 Mar 10 - 09:07 PM
katlaughing 08 Mar 10 - 10:31 PM
open mike 08 Mar 10 - 11:24 PM
Emma B 09 Mar 10 - 06:00 AM
SINSULL 09 Mar 10 - 09:42 AM
manitas_at_work 09 Mar 10 - 09:50 AM
Emma B 09 Mar 10 - 10:07 AM
Amos 09 Mar 10 - 10:19 AM
goatfell 09 Mar 10 - 10:54 AM
GUEST,tealeaf 09 Mar 10 - 11:06 AM
GUEST,Steamin' Willie 09 Mar 10 - 11:24 AM
Emma B 09 Mar 10 - 11:32 AM
PoppaGator 09 Mar 10 - 02:03 PM
GUEST,mg 09 Mar 10 - 02:37 PM
Amos 09 Mar 10 - 03:12 PM
GUEST,mg 09 Mar 10 - 03:14 PM
Sandy Mc Lean 09 Mar 10 - 10:28 PM
Ebbie 09 Mar 10 - 10:51 PM
katlaughing 09 Mar 10 - 11:36 PM
open mike 09 Mar 10 - 11:36 PM
Ebbie 09 Mar 10 - 11:37 PM
katlaughing 10 Mar 10 - 01:11 AM
michaelr 10 Mar 10 - 01:45 AM
GUEST,Allan Connochie 10 Mar 10 - 04:51 AM
Joe Offer 10 Mar 10 - 04:56 AM
gnomad 10 Mar 10 - 06:48 AM
Emma B 10 Mar 10 - 07:14 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 Mar 10 - 06:33 AM
GUEST,tealeaf 11 Mar 10 - 07:36 AM
bubblyrat 11 Mar 10 - 09:35 AM
GUEST,leeneia 11 Mar 10 - 09:49 AM
katlaughing 11 Mar 10 - 10:48 AM
PoppaGator 11 Mar 10 - 01:39 PM
Joe Offer 11 Mar 10 - 01:55 PM
Ed T 11 Mar 10 - 02:37 PM
maple_leaf_boy 11 Mar 10 - 02:41 PM
katlaughing 11 Mar 10 - 02:53 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 11 Mar 10 - 03:01 PM
gnomad 11 Mar 10 - 03:23 PM
katlaughing 11 Mar 10 - 03:41 PM
GUEST,mg 11 Mar 10 - 03:56 PM
gnu 11 Mar 10 - 04:03 PM
PoppaGator 11 Mar 10 - 04:35 PM
katlaughing 11 Mar 10 - 06:47 PM
GUEST,mg 11 Mar 10 - 06:52 PM
GUEST,Allan Connochie 11 Mar 10 - 06:59 PM
CarolC 11 Mar 10 - 11:31 PM
GUEST,Allan Connochie 12 Mar 10 - 01:58 AM
katlaughing 12 Mar 10 - 02:23 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 Mar 10 - 03:39 AM
gnomad 12 Mar 10 - 03:56 AM
PoppaGator 12 Mar 10 - 04:22 PM
GUEST,leeneia 12 Mar 10 - 10:12 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 12 Mar 10 - 10:50 PM
LadyJean 13 Mar 10 - 12:48 AM
GUEST,Allan Connochie 13 Mar 10 - 04:10 AM
GUEST,leeneia 13 Mar 10 - 07:13 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 13 Mar 10 - 08:26 PM
katlaughing 13 Mar 10 - 10:07 PM
GUEST,Allan Connochie 14 Mar 10 - 05:19 AM
Charmion 14 Mar 10 - 12:32 PM
GUEST,stringsinger 14 Mar 10 - 12:53 PM
GUEST,Allan Connochie 14 Mar 10 - 01:09 PM
GUEST,Charmion's brother Andrew 14 Mar 10 - 09:39 PM
GUEST,leeneia 14 Mar 10 - 11:53 PM
Joe Offer 15 Mar 10 - 12:20 AM
Emma B 15 Mar 10 - 07:07 AM
SINSULL 15 Mar 10 - 08:40 AM
GUEST,mg 15 Mar 10 - 12:54 PM
GUEST,leeneia 15 Mar 10 - 12:56 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 15 Mar 10 - 01:50 PM
GUEST,crazy little woman 16 Mar 10 - 01:34 AM
GUEST,leeneia 16 Mar 10 - 01:48 AM
GUEST,25% 16 Mar 10 - 09:47 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Mar 10 - 10:30 AM
GUEST,leeneia 16 Mar 10 - 11:59 AM
Dave'sWife 16 Mar 10 - 12:08 PM
GUEST,25% 16 Mar 10 - 12:45 PM
GUEST,mg 16 Mar 10 - 01:19 PM
Seamus Kennedy 16 Mar 10 - 02:12 PM
Clontarf83 16 Mar 10 - 02:29 PM
GUEST,leeneia 16 Mar 10 - 10:43 PM
3refs 17 Mar 10 - 04:17 AM
GUEST,Peter Laban 17 Mar 10 - 07:38 AM
Lox 17 Mar 10 - 08:30 AM
Charmion 17 Mar 10 - 09:02 AM
black walnut 17 Mar 10 - 11:01 AM
GUEST,leeneia 17 Mar 10 - 12:17 PM
gnu 17 Mar 10 - 12:51 PM
black walnut 17 Mar 10 - 01:56 PM
PoppaGator 17 Mar 10 - 03:00 PM
Charmion 17 Mar 10 - 04:29 PM
open mike 18 Mar 10 - 03:33 PM
katlaughing 18 Mar 10 - 09:59 PM
Dave the Gnome 19 Mar 10 - 11:43 AM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 19 Mar 10 - 02:23 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 19 Mar 10 - 02:28 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 19 Mar 10 - 02:47 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 19 Mar 10 - 03:17 PM
GUEST,mg 19 Mar 10 - 03:54 PM
katlaughing 19 Mar 10 - 06:32 PM
John MacKenzie 19 Mar 10 - 06:50 PM
GUEST,mg 19 Mar 10 - 06:59 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 19 Mar 10 - 07:12 PM
GUEST,mg 19 Mar 10 - 07:26 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 19 Mar 10 - 07:26 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 19 Mar 10 - 08:01 PM
Crow Sister (off with the fairies) 19 Mar 10 - 08:23 PM

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Subject: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 07:03 PM

This is a very important day for some of us -- the one day of the year there were no strings attached. Lent was cancelled.. nothing sorrowful liturgically etc. The happiest day of the year. Out of respect for the dear departed, I would like to ask that people respect the music, corny as you might find it, and the traditions of the Irish-Americans. Every year we go through the Plastic Paddy insults, and putdowns of people who want to sing Molly Malone and Danny Boy. No one is going to force you to listen to any of it or drink green beer. Just avoid us if you don't want to celebrate. I would not dream of telling a Vietnamese person how to celebrate Tet or an Italian about Columbus Day....mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 08:02 PM

I have much respect for the Irish everwhere...even it the USA.   And, each year celebrate my 1/4 Irish ancestry...and yes, I like the music....and never drink green beer....for fear it may result in green after-beer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Amos
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 08:04 PM

And I have even found myself singing Danny Boy on occasion. Happy Patrick's Day, you-all!!


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Joe_F
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 08:27 PM

I have no *known* Irish ancestors, but one branch of my family has been in America since the 17th century, and it is hard to believe that no Irishman or -woman appeared anywhere in twelve generations of marriages & bastardies. So I will take care, as usual, to wear something green.

There is some point, however, to Ogden Nash's line:
"And I think that of St. Patrick's Day, St. Patrick never heard.'


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: artbrooks
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 08:54 PM

As an Irish-American (at least in part), I reserve the right to make fun of people who go overboard in their celebration of St. Patrick's Day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 09:07 PM

Nuair a bhíos an braon istigh bíonn an chiall amuigh.
When the drop is inside the sense is outside.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 10:31 PM

And I shall don something orange in memory of my dad who had no use for the "Holy Pappy in Rome" (what he called him.)It's the one holiday he and I always made a big deal of...I was very enamoured with our possible ancestry; found out it was more likely Scots to N. Ireland then Nova Scotia, but we still celebrate it. I do wear a green shamrock. We always spoke on the phone no matter where he was and I still miss that phone call every year.

I have to confess I felt a bit of a snob tonight when PBS had a program on of the songs mentioned above. I have fond memories of singing them, but wish more people knew more of the really old Irish songs and tunes; they are so beautiful. We Americans are brash, though, and there is a place for both. Of course, my fav. for daddy to sing was "I'll Take You Home Again, Kathleen." Only thing is, I think I thought he meant it...he would take me to Ireland one day.:-) Oh, and he HAD to play Irish Washerwoman on his fiddle so I could dance!


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: open mike
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 11:24 PM

I will be celebrating Ireland by playing 2 hours of Irish and Celtic music on my radio show on March 13. I have a gig that night, also, which will be filled with songs and tunes from the Emerald Isle. St. Patrick's month, i say..why restrict your celebrations to one day??!!

why such a negative and defensive attitude, mg,
if you want a joyful day, start by being joyful!!

the Irish were on this continent before columbus -- St. Brendan
made it across the atlantic in ox-hide boats. This would have
occurred sometime between 512-530 AD..we should celebrate
Saint Brendan's feast day on May 16, too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Emma B
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 06:00 AM

The Irish tradition of an immram (a sea-voyage in which a hero, with a few companions, often monks, wanders from island to island, meets other-world wonders, and finally returns home) was a popular form of literature in the seventh and eighth centuries

Was the Isle of the Blessed described in the Navigatio actually America?

The British explorer, historian and writer Tim Severin crossed the Atlantic in a replica of a 6th century leather open curragh landing in Newfoundland in June 1977

The success of this expedition opened the door to all the new theories of the discovery of the New World by St Brendan a long time before Christopher Columbus.

The ground-breaking Brendan Voyage Suite for uilleann pipes and orchestra was composed by Shaun Davey in 1980

excerpt from Shaun Davey's 'The Brendan Voyage' with soloist Liam O'Flynn


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: SINSULL
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 09:42 AM

Corned Beef and Cabbage with boiled potatoes, Guinness, Irish Soda Bread. And Seamus Kennedy. That works for me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 09:50 AM

http://www.irishcultureandcustoms.com/2Kitch/aCBeefCabge.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Emma B
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 10:07 AM

Bacon and cabbage with champ and parsley sauce .... roll on the 17th mmmmmmmm!


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Amos
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 10:19 AM

Kat raises an interesting question: are Orangers out of line if they celebrate Ireland by wearing orange?

Up a long ladder, down a short rope
Here's to King Billy, to hell wit' the Pope...


How about singing numbers like "The Old Orange Flute"? "Croppies, Lie Down"?   P.C.?

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: goatfell
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 10:54 AM

aye frae SCOTLAND AND AUSTRALIA HAPPY ST PATRICK'S DAY EVERYONE


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,tealeaf
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 11:06 AM

Anyone know where the orange order comes from.Happy St. Patrick's Day


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 11:24 AM

Respect has to be earned, not demanded.

However, St Paddys day is a bit of fun, no more, no less.

Typical Irish idea, celebrating a Welsh bloke who noticed there were no snakes in Ireland so pretended he drove them out.

Enjoy.

me? I will be in France, skiing, but a couple of years ago was in Boston. Not on purpose, just happened to be there, and joined in all the fun. Having lived in Dublin and been dragged into playing in bars during the festivities, I reckon the American Irish do it well. There is no sense of irony, just honest in your face fun.

As I just said.

Enjoy


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Emma B
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 11:32 AM

Parades in full regalia form a large part of Orange culture.
I remember witnessing the large triumphalist, anti-Catholic and anti-nationalist parades leading up to the celebrations on the Twelfth of July as a young woman in Liverpool.

Nowadays they are not quite so 'edgy'

Loyalist Liverpool 2008

Orange lodges have turned down invitation to join St Patricks day parades in a number of towns in the north of Ireland as it was
'unclear as to whether or not they could carry their usual flags, banners and standards and wear their regalia' and
'It would be demeaning to impose a condition that they could not do so'

However the Order does celebrate St. Patrick's Day in a number of locations across Northern Ireland.
These events focus on St. Patrick's role as a major figure in the spread of Christianity.

A delegation from the Order spent a four day trip in New York, in June last year to promote 'the cultural aspects of the Twelfth and make it one of the major tourist attractions in Northern Ireland.
We believe there is massive potential in the United States to encourage people to visit Northern Ireland around the time of the Twelfth.'

One blessing - I bet there's no green beer :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: PoppaGator
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 02:03 PM

Not everyone understands ~ not even most of the participants ~ that St. Patrick's celebrations in the US are (quite properly) celebrations of Irish-American culture and experience, and only secondarily concerned with memories of the Auld Sod itself.

Seen in that light, numbers such as "When Irish Eyes Are Smiling" and "McNamara's Band" ~ not to mention the ubiquitous "Danny Boy" ~ are absolutely appropiate to the tradition in question, regardless of their historic connection to Ireland, or lack thereof. Songs whose origin is in Hollywood, California, (rather than the Hollywood up there in Ulster) should NOT be regarded as candidates for automatic exclusion.

Of course, performers who can present a truer image of the "real" Ireland, who have learned and can demonstrate genuine Irish traditional music and dance, will almost always be welcome. But not if they look down their noses at us ignorant Mick Yanks naively enjoying our own culture!


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 02:37 PM

You said it better than me. You can not sneer at the traditions without somehow sneering at those the traditions, however broken and newly pieced together in a new land, without sneering at those who held on to what they could and created something new...and that would include the supposed Irishman buried under every railroad tie and those who worked themselves to death at an early age and those laid low by various fevers and who died in childbirth. There is so little left, at least out here in western US, and to see it not die a natural death, but to be kicked to death by people who think they know more than us ..well, it gets my Irish up...and my ancestors probably aspired to be shanty Irish..they were proably several steps below. I won't insult other people's ancestors, no matter how humble, and I don't want people insulting mine. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Amos
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 03:12 PM

The chances are, though, mg, that some of the actions you take as insults are performed by people who have no idea who your ancestors--not to mention their own--even were!


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 03:14 PM

I know. That is why I feel it is my bounden duty to tell them. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 10:28 PM

As a descendant on all sides of Highland Scots I have to go back many hundreds of years to find my Irish roots but we are cut from the same cloth! All the best to my Gaelic cousins in and from the Emerald Isle! I have already sung "Wearing Of The Green" at several recent concerts and jams and I will do so again at a few more in the next week. Slainte Mhath!


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 10:51 PM

I'm told that it was St. Patrick's brother who drove the snakes out of Alaska. Talented family.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 11:36 PM

Would that be Saint Mal O'Mute? :->


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: open mike
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 11:36 PM

in Boston, they are Seltics, but elsewhere the pronunciation is Keltic.

the Celts ranged far and wide...there is cultural history in France in
Brittany/Bretagne
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brittany
http://www.bretagne-celtic.com/an/accueil_an.htm
and Astoria, by Spain, Andorra and Portugal of their presence there...
http://www.llandecubel.com/

not just in Ireland....


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 11:37 PM

It was O'Mute indeed! How did you know?


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 01:11 AM

The Saint Bernard told me! I understand they ran together at one point in their youth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: michaelr
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 01:45 AM

EMMA! Can I have your recipe for champ and parsley sauce, please?

Here in the US I have been trying in vain to find that cut called Irish Bacon. They butcher `em differently here... Canadian bacon is closest but it only has the lean part, without that little tail of fatty bacon. Does anyone have a source for authentic Irish Bacon?


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,Allan Connochie
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 04:51 AM

"in Boston, they are Seltics, but elsewhere the pronunciation is Keltic"

In a sporting sense at least the word is pronounced 'seltic' in Scotland also in the form of the football team 'Glasgow Celtic"


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 04:56 AM

Several years ago, National Public Radio had a long piece about how the Boston Celtics basketball team was going to change the pronunciation of their name to "keltic" because the "seltic" pronunciation was deemed to be insulting and politically incorrect. There were interviews from angry Boston fans about the scourge of political correctness, and serious assessments by professorial types.

The date of the interview: April 1.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: gnomad
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 06:48 AM

Don't know if this is the appropriate thread to ask, if not please accept my apologies, the question was revived in my mind by the mention that it is largely Irish-American culture that is celebrated.

How long after leaving the country do emigrant families go on seeing themselves as Irish, or Irish-American, rather than just identifying with their new abode? To this outsider it appears to go on for multiple generations.

My maternal grandmother was either half- or a quarter- Irish (I would have to check to be certain) but Irishness was never a feature of my upbringing, though my mother and her sisters did a bit of step-dance as children. I think of myself as English, but by the standards of the Irish-Americans would I be Irish-English?

I have visited Ireland a number of times (going again in a few weeks, yahoo) but despite liking the place and its people I have never felt the need to claim to belong, it is curiosity that makes me ask.

Anyway, good luck in a week's time, I hope all the celebrations go well, whatever form they take.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Emma B
Date: 10 Mar 10 - 07:14 AM

In Ireland the term "bacon" is used to mean any joint of pork except the leg, which is ham.

It's possible to get into endless arguments about which cut of pork / bacon is best for boiling, but many prefer the "collar of bacon", which is the equivalent of a cut from the North American "shoulder butt" or "picnic shoulder".

If it's difficult to buy a bacon joint where you are there's a useful page on wet curing at home
Guidelines For Brining Pork


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 06:33 AM

Q. What did St Patrick say as he drove the snakes out of Ireland?

A. Turning round from the drivers seat he said 'Are you OK in the back there, lads?'

Have a good one.

Cheers

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,tealeaf
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 07:36 AM

"When the Irish say that St. Patrick chased the snakes out of Ireland, what snakes did he chase out? and where did they end up .


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: bubblyrat
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 09:35 AM

Well,there were the Viperse,for a start.Their leaving was,of course,a diaspora. The Bogsidewinders were driven from Ulster,and the Cobhras from further south.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 09:49 AM

Patrick didn't drive out the snakes, the glaciers did. We can safely assume the snakes of yore were the same as in nearby parts of the Europe today.

David, I enjoyed your joke.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 10:48 AM

...where did they end up?

back in Eden?:-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: PoppaGator
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 01:39 PM

"How long after leaving the country do emigrant families go on seeing themselves as Irish, or Irish-American, rather than just identifying with their new abode? To this outsider it appears to go on for multiple generations."

I think a significant factor is how "isolated" (or, to phrase it differently, how strong and self-sufficient) an immigrant community one joins upon arrival in the new country. That, in turn, will influence the degree to which members intermarry/interbreed with folks of other origins.

The late President John Fitzgerald Kennedy was of 100% Irish ancestry, or ethnicity, or whatever you wanna call it, despite his family being so well-established in the US for so many generations. All sixteen of his great-great-grandparents were born in Ireland and had resettled in the Boston area by the time they had children!

Now, that's not just a statistically unlikely family history, it's evidence of an astoundingly tight community; one should easily understand that all its members, throughout all those generations, would consider themselves "Irish-American" (if not simply "Irish") to a much greater extent than someone whose four grandparents might include, say, one born in Ireland, one born in the US of Irish parents, one Italian American, and one US citizen whose family had been on this side of the ocean for so many generations that he doesn't even know how many nationalities are represented in his DNA.

Descendants of the downtrodden Catholic workers and peasants who fled to America tended to stay together in fairly homogeneoius US neighborhoods, and to look to the Church as protector and a focal point for community. Ulster Protestants and the more affluent Anglo-Irish would be much more likely to become assimilated into mainstream US culture, and have their children and grandchildren lose consiousness of any Irish identity relatively quickly.

I remember hearing on the Today Show one St. Patrick's Day morning several years ago that many more current-day Americans of Irish descent are Protestant than Catholic; that's certainly NOT who you see out celebrating, and identifying strongly as Irish, on March 17. I think part of the explanation is that large numbers of Ulster folk came across the ocean a century or more earlier than the famine-driven exodus of the Catholic/Gaelic population of the Irish West, and therefore had several more generations of breeding to get a "head start" on producing descendants in greater numbers. More obviously, identification with the old country is going to be much weaker for those who have to look back a couple of centuries rather than a couple of generations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 01:55 PM

I think it's when they intermarry. My grandparents were identified as Irish, French, and German (although we suspect other elements were also present). My parents were half-half, and my generation of the family was quartered. My parents didn't claim any ethnic identity, but would say they were half and half. My children have very little idea of their ethnic heritage, and claim to be "Californian" (although my firstborn was born in Berlin).

Now, my wife was the product of Polish-American parents and Polish-born grandparents - she she claims she's Polish.

On St. Patrick's Day, I'm Irish - even though only one Grandmother was actually Irish. Most of the rest of the time, I claim to be German.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 02:37 PM

where did they end up?
Boston?


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: maple_leaf_boy
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 02:41 PM

I don't think that "driving out the snakes" was meant to be taken
literally. Wikipedia suggests that the snakes were:
"serpent symbolism of the Druids of that time and place, as shown for instance on coins minted in Gaul."


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 02:53 PM

Good points, PoppaGator. I would just add that some of the Ulster Protestants were also Scottish, as noted above...I am sure there was some mixing there, though.:-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 03:01 PM

I think you can expect acceptance for having an official day of cheesy daftness (same as Christians have to accept people enjoying toy-bunnies-and-chocolate-easter-eggs day, and unwrap-your-pressies-then-eat-loads-of-grub day) but umm expecting "respect" for leprechauns-and-green-beer-day is equally daft as what goes down IMO!

Enjoy what you do, but do eat PORK like decent self-respecting Irish-Americans! Tsk tsk! And don't forget the fried potato bread either for your morning's coronary (my Mum would have this topped with fried egg sausage and bacon all fried in lard..)


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: gnomad
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 03:23 PM

So you would see it as a question of what might be called dilution, or the lack of it?

To achieve several generations without any intake of 'outsider' blood suggests that there must be a big community to start with and a ghetto-like separation from other groups. Given such conditions it is less surprising that succeeding generations should still identify with their place of origin

In the past I have generally viewed the States as the proverbial melting pot, but I am beginning to see it more as a number of quite distinct cultural/national/religious groups living alongside each other, with just a bit of blurring at the edges. Is that how others see or experience it?

Regarding the future, will more blurring eventually wipe out the separate groups, and if so about how many generations would you expect it to take?


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 03:41 PM

I think it depends on what part of the country you are talking about. Back East where there are more big cities and the distances between are less than those out West, I saw more of the clustering BUT didn't feel any prejudice toward me or others not of that particular group.

Out West, people had to rely on one another much more; the distances were much greater and goods only available in the towns and few cities. To be sure, there were still enclaves and there were places designated by their ethnic/cultural identity; some have become designated historical neighbourhoods.

For an idea of how prejudice could perpetuate in a very rural area, even in the 20th century, I would recommend a movie we just watched called "Sweet Land." Despite the portrayal of a closed, small-minded community, it also uplifts when people open their hearts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 03:56 PM

I think it is more than dilution but sometimes prejudice...my mother used to call us Shanty Irish and she meant it..she was not Irish and did not frankly respect them. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: gnu
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 04:03 PM

Joe... "On St. Patrick's Day, I'm Irish - even though only one Grandmother was actually Irish."

On St. Pat's, we're all Irish. Even if yer not, yer still welcome.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: PoppaGator
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 04:35 PM

Kat: the folks living on either side of the (very narrow) water separating the northeastern corner of Ireland from the west coast of Scotland have always been fairly closely related. The religious/national divisions of 16th century introduced a degree of animosity between Catholic Irish and Presbyterian Scots that probably didn't exist before. And for a while the "nonconformist" Presbyterians were only slightly less persecuted by the Anglican establishment than were the Papists.

In any event, Cromwell forced the Catholic natives of Ulster off their highly desireable farmlands, banished them to the relatively barren rocky west, and forcibly repopulated the area ("plantation") with Scottish peasants/farmers from just across the water, thereby "planting" a more cooperative population, forefathers of the future Orangemen and Loyalists.

Not long afterwards, within a generation or two, the offspring/descendants of these same people made another move across the ocean to serve a similar purpose in populating the British Colonies of America (most going to the southern colonies, many as indentured servants). These were and are the "Scotch-Irish" who comprise a huge part of the US population and have produced a large number of Presidents, from Andrew Jackson through Reagan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 06:47 PM

Yep, thanks for putting it so well and succinctly, Poppa. Some of mine went to Nova Scotia, some wound up in NY on the St. Lawrence river, some in Virginia, and some made it to PA. The English part came from Barbados to the Carolinas. The Virginians were mostly "Scotch-Irish" as you say.

The only thing I had different in my mind was, I thought there were also clearances in Scotland, by Sutherland, the crofters were sent to live off the sea because their land was desirable, and some of them wound up going to Ulster, not to aid in settling, but to escape the horrible changes in their circumstances. Do I have events mixed up? My gggrandma was a Sutherland in NS.

BTW, thanks to Brendy's recommendation, I read an incredible book about the transport of Irish as slaves to Barbados. You've probably already have read it or know about it. Well worth an eye-opening read for those who haven't, imo: To Hell or Barbados: The Ethnic Cleansing of Ireland by Sean O'Callaghan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 06:52 PM

Do you know if the Dingle area people were sent? I usually recognize a cluster of Dingle names, and it seems like they were among the names I have heard about being there..Cavanaugh for sure..does anyone know how Marcus Garvey got his Irish name? Could it have been from this? mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,Allan Connochie
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 06:59 PM

"In any event, Cromwell forced the Catholic natives of Ulster off their highly desireable farmlands, banished them to the relatively barren rocky west, and forcibly repopulated the area ("plantation") with Scottish peasants/farmers from just across the water, thereby "planting" a more cooperative population, forefathers of the future Orangemen and Loyalists."

I don't think you've got it right there. The Scottish Plantation of Ulster started in the early 1600s and was instigated by James VI of Scotland when he ascended to the English and Irish thrones after the death of Elizabeth I. He hadalready carried out similar smaller scale exercises in moving Lowlanders into parts of the Highlands. There was a significant established Ulster-Scots population long prior to Cromwell. It was reduced somewhat during the civil wars dsepite there being a Scottish amy in Ulster to protect the colonists whilst the main Scottish army was occupying northern England. Scotland and England though were completely seperate countries which just happened to share a monarch like the UK currently does with Canada etc. Cromwell's invasion of Ireland had nothing to do with Scotland or Scots. Within a short time, after the Scots proclaimed Charles II not only King of Scotland but King of England too, Cromwell invaded Scotland and the country was forcibly unified with England though only for a relatively short period. It may be likely that some colonising of Ulster by Scots went on during Cromwell's occupation of Scotlad but it certainly wasn't the main period for it. The two big periods were early in the century in the initial wave and again later in the 1690s during the "ill years" when massive numbers of Scots fled the series of disatrous famines in the country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Mar 10 - 11:31 PM

gnomad, it does appear to differ from one family to the next. My mother's father's parents came over from Ireland, and I was not brought up with any Irish culture at all. On my father's side, there is some Scots Irish, but all I know about that is that it's there, but I don't know anything else except that it came to the US by way of Canada and Bermuda.

I don't know if there was any Irish culture in my mother's home as she was growing up. I do know that she hated her Irish relatives for some reason, although I was never told specifically why. It could be their Catholicism. She was raised Catholic, and she hated it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,Allan Connochie
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 01:58 AM

"I thought there were also clearances in Scotland, by Sutherland, the crofters were sent to live off the sea because their land was desirable, and some of them wound up going to Ulster, not to aid in settling, but to escape the horrible changes in their circumstances. Do I have events mixed up?"

Scotland had long been an exporter of people and people had moved back and forth over the short sea crossing between Scotland and Ireland for long enough. Hence there was considerable Scottish presence in the north of Ireland prior to the Plantation of Ulster. The difference with the Plantation was previously many Scottish incomers would be Highlanders or Islanders who were at that point culturally similar to the native Irish. The Plantation was a deliberate attempt to settle Ulster with culturally different people. The Scots who went, or were sent, tended to be Presbyterians, and mostly Lowlanders especially from south-west Scotland. The Plantation initially got started in about 1610. There was another big wave from the north-eastern Lowlands during the famine years of the 1690s. The Plantation as such was a phenomena of the 17thC especially the early years of that century. The Sutherland Clearances happened in about 1815 to 1820 so it was almost a full two centuries after the initial Plantation of Ulster and mroe than a century after the last great wave. So you are right in that not everyone who ever went to Ireland either to live permanently or on route to North America were actually part of the Plantation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 02:23 AM

Thank you, Allan, I appreciate the information. I'll have to get out my genealogical charts and see who was born, and when, in Nova Scotia to see when the families may have arrived.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 03:39 AM

I don't think that "driving out the snakes" was meant to be taken
literally.


No! You mean some religious stories how not realy true? Surely not...

:D (eG)


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: gnomad
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 03:56 AM

Hm, much to mull over. These things never get more simple the more that you learn, do they?


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: PoppaGator
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 04:22 PM

First of all, let me back off from anything and everything that Allen disagreed with. I claim no great expertise in this very complicated history, and he obviously knows whereof he speaks, er, types.

I'm still pretty sure that Cromwell had something to do with banishing the landowners of Ulster to "hell or Connaught," but I have no doubt that he was not the only, nor even the first, conqueror to run the native Irish off their most fertile and desirable land.

On the question of how strong and how long Irish Americans identify with Ireland, I'm sure it varies wildly from family to family, especially insofar as some folks don't want to remember while others want nothing more than to remember.

My maternal grandpa was one who wanted nothing to do with the old country. He married outside the Irish-American ghetto ~ grandma had recently arrived from Alsace-Lorraine with her mother; they were German by language and heritage but officially French according to their passports.

Grandpa was absolutely adamant about being an American. He was born here in the states, unlike my other three grandparents, only very shortly after his parents had come over from Ireland. At the local Hibernian Club, he was known as "Bernie the American" among his mostly-Irish-born fellows. At home, he insisted that his wife modify her considerable pastry-chef skills by using a round piepan for her incredible apple streudel so that it'd become American apple pie. (Man, that was some great ~ and justly-famous ~ pie!)

My father's parents were born and grew to adulthood in Ireland, and so would probably have taught me all kinds of traditional lore had they lived, but they both had passed on before I was a year old. In the end, my knowledge of "true" Irish culture was no better or deeper than that of any American kid cut off from all living memory of an earlier family home.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 10:12 PM

This thread was supposed to be about Irish Americans celebrating St Patrick's Day. Enough of Cromwell, etc. That was long time ago.

If you want to celebrate, come to Kansas City. You better hurry. Here's the calendar for the coming week:

Snake Saturday Parade 11 am
North Kansas City
Missouri champion barbecue is going on right next door."

Emerald Isle Parade - Saturday   1 pm
Lee's Summit (eastern suburb)

St Patrick's Warm-up Parade -Saturday 2pm
Brookside neighborhood (the twee part of town)

==============
Not that you'll see me at any of these. I'll be playing Celtic music at the Presbyterian church.
featuring basset hounds, Irish setters
and marching O'Wiener dogs - 300 dogs in all

St Patrick's Parade - Sunday 1 pm
Shawnee KS
the west side of town
followed by a rubber duck race

Martin City Parade - Sunday 2pm
the southern edge of the metro area


33rd Annual Blue Springs Procession - Wednesday (time ?)
goes 66 feet from the Soda Shop to The Keg

Kansas City St Patrick's Day Parade - Wednesday 11 am
in the Westport neighborhood of midtown
giant balloons and visiting New York City firemen


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 10:50 PM

Horsefeathers! Green ones!

(Partly Irish; but I call myself a "Duke's Mixture*."

* A popular tobacco in a can years ago when I was a kid, reputed to be horse manure, chicken feathers and other (not to be mentioned in polite society) materials all ground up together.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: LadyJean
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 12:48 AM

The biology teacher at my high school was an English lady. After she told an Irish joke in class, I bought a St. Patrick's day card that proclaimed the recipient an honorary Irishman, because she had "Courage, wit, humor and just a bit of blarney". (She had none of these, but never mind.) The entire class signed it.

A few weeks later, when we had the new kitten neutered, she asked for his testicles. I brought them to her gift wrapped, with a card from the kitten.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,Allan Connochie
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 04:10 AM

"I'm still pretty sure that Cromwell had something to do with banishing the landowners"

I'm not suggesting that Cromwell didn't invade Ireland or didn't disposses native landowners. What you said though was that Cromwell dispossesed native landowners and replaced them with 'Scottish' settlers. You seem to be mixing up different events. I don't know a great deal about the Cromwellian invasion either as it simply isn't directly a part of Scottish history which is my interest. I had a look at R.F Foster's "Modern Ireland 1600-1972" and he seems to say that the Cromwellian settlers were mainly of two types. English adventurers particularly from London and the West Country and soldiers from Cromwell's army. Theoretically one couldn't say there were absolutely no Scots settled there by Cromwell but if there were they were not significant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 07:13 AM

Not even marching wiener dogs can distract some people from beating a dead horse. Sigh.

'Beating a dead horse' was one of my mother's expressions. She came from a Scotch-Irish family that had been in America so long that 'Scotch-Irish' was nothing but a label. No music, no stories, no reason for emigrating survived.

My mother didn't get along with her squabbling siblings, and a Greek family more-or-less took her in, enabling her to keep her sanity through high school. My mother had red hair, and the pater familias called her The Redbird.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 08:26 PM

'Beating a dead horse' was widespread in N. Am. and probably everywhere English was spoken.
Haven't heard it for some time, but it seems to apply here.
'Dead horse' signifying something of little value or waste of time goes back to the 17th C.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 10:07 PM

Well, I have enjoyed some of the posters' sharing so I don't feel as though there's been too much beating going on.:-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,Allan Connochie
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 05:19 AM

"Well, I have enjoyed some of the posters' sharing so I don't feel as though there's been too much beating going on.:-)"

I agree there's only been a little discussion over a point of history. By the 'beating a dead horse' is still a fairly common expression here (Scottish Borders)!


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE HOUSE OF ORANGE (Stan Rogers)
From: Charmion
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 12:32 PM

We beat 'em here in the Ottawa Valley, too. I grew up in an Orange village, and the fading away of the Lodge is one aspect of vanishing tradition I have never for a second regretted.

A fine song by Stan Rogers (of blessed memory) sums it up for me. It's called "The House of Orange", and he wrote it during the early 1980s when the IRA was raising funds in Ontario.

Here it is:

THE HOUSE OF ORANGE
(Stan Rogers)
As recorded by Stan Rogers on "From Fresh Water" (1984)

I took back my hand and I showed him the door;
No dollar of mine would I part with this day
For fueling the engine of a bloody cruel war
In my forefather's home far away.
Who fled the first Famine wearing all that they owned,
Were called 'Navigators', all ragged and torn,
And built the Grand Trunk here, and found a new home
Wherever their children were born.

Their sons have no politics. None can recall
Allegiance from long generations before.
O'this or O'that name just can't matter at all
Or be cause enough for to war.
And meanwhile my babies are safe in their home,
Unlike their pale cousins who cower and cry
While kneecappers nail their poor Dads to the floor
And teach them to hate and to die.

It's those cruel beggars who spurn the fair coin.
The peace for their kids they could take at their will.
Since the day old King Billy prevailed at the Boyne,
They've bombed and they've maimed and they've killed.
Now they cry out for money and wail at the door
But Home Rule or Republic, 'tis all of it shame;
And a curse for us here who want nothing of war.
We're kindred in nothing but name.

All rights and all wrongs have long since blown away,
For causes are ashes where children lie slain.
Yet the damned U.D.L. and the cruel I.R.A.
Will tomorrow go murdering again.
But no penny of mine will I add to the fray.
"Remember the Boyne!" they will cry out in vain,
For I've given my heart to the place I was born
And forgiven the whole House of Orange,
King Billy and the whole House of Orange.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,stringsinger
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 12:53 PM

Danny Boy or Molly Malone are not essentially part of the Catholic liturgy. Therefore,
they should require no religious deference or observance. (I don't have a deference or observance for them personally, regardless). The London Derriere is not essentially Irish. it's a manufactured pop tune from "Oirish" living in New York. Molly Malone is a lovely ballad, however.

To claim a fraudulent respect for a nebulous tradition in America is like saying that
one should genuflect before Mickey Mouse.

However, the Irish tradition of music is respectable and will continue to be vibrant. The plastic bowlers and green beer is the result of a hyped-up St. Pat's day in America.
The sensible Irish will not deify it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,Allan Connochie
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 01:09 PM

"By the way 'beating a dead horse' is still a fairly common expression here (Scottish Borders)!"

Sorry I'm havering. Flogging a dead horse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,Charmion's brother Andrew
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 09:39 PM

The Stan Rogers song Charmion posted certainly reflects the attitude of our father. When as a teenager I asked him why he did not wear a green tie on St. Patrick's Day, he opined that if he were to mark it sartorially he would wear a black tie.

His first Swiss mercenary ancestor arrived in Lower Canada in the 1790s married to an O'Connor, the daughter of a British Army surgeon, so presumably someone who had the terms of the Test Acts, i.e. a Protestant. In 1849, their son was accused of being Irish in _Le Canadien_: « une variété non encore décrite de l'espèce et qui appartient à aucune nation et nous croyons en partie... » (the elipsis likely stands in for something actionable because the man they were trying to insult was a lawyer). That son married a McGrath, whose father had arrived in Newfoundland from Waterford in 1822.

When my father and his elder brothers found themselves at school in England in the 1920s and '30s, they were bullied in the best English schoolboy fashion for being Irish, and it was a fair cop, by their standards.

Our mother's father, despite bearing the name "Harris," was Montreal Irish, his grandfather having arrived in the 1820s from, I believe, Sligo. He and his brother are identified as "Irish" on the 1891 census, even though they were born in Canada. I asked our grandmother if they were from Griffintown, an Irish working class neighbourhood. She was aghast (her inlaws were lace curtain Irish and she had the furniture to prove it).

We descend from Irishmen on both sides of the family, but I do not feel a strong connection. My experience serving with members of the Irish Free Clothing Society (their armed forces) on UN duty convinced me I had little in common.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 11:53 PM

Thanks for the song, Charmion. It's good for people to be reminded that despite the attention warmakers get, it's children who suffer the most.
==========
Well, back to Irish-American. I joined six harpers yesterday in a program of Celtic music. We had a small, but pleasant audience - about 30-40 people. Our leader wisely thought an hour of harp would prove monotonous, so she asked me to contribute recorder playing.

I tried to strike a balance between being bored by dull parts and making it look as if here was a recorder player with a six-harp backup band. So I created some low, humming parts, almost like a cello's, and some melody parts. My instruments ranged from the bass (over a yard long) to the sopranino, higher than a D whistle.

The audience learned about all the types of harp. After a while, a woman called out, "I want to know what that instrument is that's like an oboe!" (the bass recorder)

I'm sorry to say that 'When Irish Eyes are Smiling' was dropped.   Maybe the concert was getting too long. Maybe it was the pesky G's and G#'s.

In the evening, I attended an excellent show with story-telling and guitar playing. Sure beats green beer!


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 12:20 AM

I was told that corned beef is rare in Ireland - that, in general, beef is rare in Ireland. As far as I can tell, corned beef, cabbage, carrots, and potatoes is probably more properly called "New England Boiled Dinner" - at least, that's what they call in in the diners around Boston.
I had something similar in Ireland, but the meat was gammon, the Irish bacon referred to above. It was cured pork that tasted like something between ham and corned beef.
So, we took advantage of the sales and had a New England Boiled Dinner tonight. And everybody thought it was Irish, and everybody said I was a wonderful cook.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Emma B
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 07:07 AM

I've bought salted (or corned) beef in a butchers shops in Skibbereen for a 'special occasion'
It is similar to Jewish salt beef in texture very unlike the S American tinned product sold as corned beef in the UK which does, however, make a terrific corned beef hash.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 08:40 AM

An Irish Blessing:
http://www.e-water.net/viewflash.php?flash=irishblessing_en


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 12:54 PM

Thank you stringsilver for demonstrating exactly what I was referring to..disrespect for us on St. Patrick's Day..no need to call us Oirish. Thank you for not using the term Plastic Paddy though. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 12:56 PM

Right on, Joe. Like you, I have bought the corned beef not-in-a-can. The DH is coming home from a business trip on Wednesday, and I plan to serve the whole enchilada:

corned beef
cabbage - steamed for 10 minutes over clear water
boiled potatoes
Irish soda bread.
horseradish on the side
beer

I buy extra packages of the corned beef and keep it in the deep freeze. It lasts for months and comes out for special occasions. I know it's too salty for regular consumption. Best music to go with this: Irish traditional.

By the way, The Joy of Cooking says that few words in the English language vary so much in spelling as 'ketchup.'

Emma, you are so right about the canned corned beef for hash. Once in a while we have it for dinner, with a fried egg on top and a dash of ketchup. This is good food for car camping, too. Best music to go with this: rounds and folk songs such as 'On Top of Old Smoky' sung around the campfire.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 01:50 PM

Good locally prepared corned beef etc, but the canned stuff is good for camping.
Like Leeneia, we enjoy it from time to time.
No matter what you call it, corned beef-potato etc. makes a good dinner.
Corned beef, good bread, lettuce and tomato make a good sandwich too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 01:34 AM

or perhaps sandwiches - plan B

pumpernickel bread
corned beef, thinly sliced
thin film of mustard

Make Healthfuller cole slaw to go with the sandwiches:

Dressing

Whisk together:

1/2 cup vegetable oil (not olive oil)
1/4 cup lemon or lime juice
if lime juice, add 1/2 tsp dried tarragon
if lemon juice, consider some poppy seeds or sliced carrot
a few grindings of black pepper
scant 1/4 tsp sugar

Slice up a cabbage, or maybe 3/4 of a cabbage. Add to dressing and stir. Keep covered while stored to prevent browning.

The law which requires that cabbage in cole slaw be reduced nearly to a liquid has been repealed. To make cole slaw at home, just chop up the cabbage and eat it.

In summer, you can add cherry tomatoes, whole. Do not cut them, or the slaw will turn an unappetizing pinkish green.
========
We have only one parade to go, The Big One, on March 17th itself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 01:48 AM

Here's a good way to celebrate the day.

Go to this site:

http://www.oldmusicproject.com/OneilsOcarolans.html

and buy the CD of the MIDI's of O'Neill's Music of Ireland. Then play the music.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,25%
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 09:47 AM

My Nan's family were from the Netherfield Road area of Liverpool a staunchly Orange Lodge part of the city. I think Orangeism can be turned on and off. Nan had that culture and carried it on in her views but she still married a 100% Irish blood catholic from Vauxhall. It's a funny old world. This 25% Irish person wishes everyone Irish or not a good day for the 17th.

25%


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 10:30 AM

I plan to serve the whole enchilada:

Are they Irish as well? From the kitchen of Jose Malone maybe? :-)

(Sorry Leeneia - couldn't resist it)

DeG


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 11:59 AM

heh heh

I PLANNED the whole thing!

Thanks for the good wishes, 25%.

I'll be spending the 17th at home because if I move my car, I'll lose my parking space. I'm close to the parade route and the bars with the you-know-what.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 12:08 PM

First off, Hellooooo everybody. I can't believe it's been 3 years since I last posted. i do stop by and read sometimes and to use the amazon link when shopping.

I find myself drawn to Mudcat every year around my birthday which comes close to St. Patrick's Day and I always find a thread like this. I also usually find some "humorous" post about wearing orange to defy the accursed Catholics and put them in their place.

Now, I have never had a reason to be angry with Katlaughing and I understand that this is some type of family tradition for her so I won't spit on it. I'll just say that growing up when and where I did (USA, NYC, father is 1st generation american) I was sheltered from that kind of thing for a while. When my parents decided they couldn't afford Catholic Schooling and we found ourselves in a town just outside of NYC where my dad was stationed, I got that kind of thing full on and right in the face. I still do get it from my in-laws who think it's hardee-har-har funny.

I'm not gonna get into Plastic Paddy arguments or what the day should be or used to be or anything like that. All I will say is that I prefer to stay at home these days then to venture out in public on the 17th only to have more and more people in orange come up to me and bray drunkenly into my face "this is fer yer you ya filthy papist" and then laugh like it's a joke. It's a bit like walking around in black face on Martin Luther King Day but it's socially acceptable. However, I do realize that it is a joke to them and one that they find simply hilarious.

As I said, I know katlaughing would NEVER EVER do something like that and that she remembers her dad's behavior as being amusing because it wasn't an insult to her. I know families who josh about their dad or grandad singing "coon songs" and Lord help me, I have one or two people in my family who remember one of my great-uncles fondly for doing exactly that. I don't know WHERE that kind of thing comes from because it horrifies me and the rest of the family. I guess laughing at it better than crying about it or getting angry at it and it takes some of the sting out the original insulting intent of such behavior. I'm cool with that.

I have to live with Anti-Catholicism from my inlaws constantly even though I go to Church with their son. To them, born a "filthy papist", you die a "filthy papist" and it is also not cool to be Irish cuz the irish, well, they're not White. I only restate this for other people's info. Kat and the others know this already.

I suppose because I have been taking it on the chin now for 15 years in every way possible from them, I don't see the Orange-wearers as anything but one the last few ways people can get really ugly to you and still claim it's a "just a joke." When I was a younger gal in the late 1980s working in NYC, it was simply horrible to have to go to work on the 17th when I worked on Wall Street because nearly half the staff would be in orange and they all wanted to know why I wasn't wearing Green from head to toe like a buffoon. the answer of course was "I'm not a plastic paddy you bigot and since i've been to Mass already, I've done my bit for the cause today, thanks. When I get home, I'll have something good to eat that is far from corned beef & cabbage, now go away, please." I'm a lot more forgiving these days.

Of course, once actual irish people imoorted the American version of the holiday to ireland and they all started dressing from head to toe in green and wearing shamrock deely-boppers, there's lamost no point in arguing for an authentic experience any more , now is there? ;-)

Katlaughing, you know I adore you and I'm sure your dad would have been very sad if he could have spent a few hours listening to my inlaws harangue me about being Irish and being Catholic, trying to trick me into eating meat on fridays in Lent and telling everyone how relieved they are that I didn't have any children since I likely would have beat them and they would have all had disgusting red hair and freckles. I'm sure to him, the ole Wearin' O'the Orange thing was also a faded memory of an insult passed down to him.

In summary - wearing orange is what it is and what it is perceived to be is colored by your life experience. I used to be horribly put off but I get much worse on a frequent basis and I'v adjusted my view.


(one last big wave to the gang!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,25%
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 12:45 PM

I think Irish Catholic communities retained a separateness because their religion was different from the older communities in the places they settled. They were usually the first catholic arrivals before later waves of other catholics like the Italians and Poles. In Liverpool it was a bit different they were outsiders in one sense because of their religion but they became insiders because they were absorbed into a new hybrid culture that had many Irish influences.

25%


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 01:19 PM

I think most people who wear orange don't know the history, and just think it is cute and want to join in the festivities in their own way. I have never had the experiences you have had, so I understand it is different. But dressing up in shamrocks is an authentic experience and wearing green is authentic..after all it was forbidden in the Auld Sod. We are free to do it here. I have green fingernail polish on and wish I had a tiara like my great niece, which is full of shamrocks and sparkles and lights up even. Corny does not mean inauthentic. What they do in Ireland is not of great concern to us as it is an Irish-American holiday, and very very important to us..me anyway. So celebrate or not as you wish, and as you are closer to Ireland generationally, do it in a religious way or however you want..it is up to you.

I personally will share the day gladly with Japanese, Nigerians, Orangemen and women..as long as everyone is polite. (I won't celebrate with them or from now on anyone not Irish-American, because it is too complicated..the other 364 days a year fine..but I want them to enjoy the day in their own way without me).   Your inlaws are of course abusive, and you need to set boundaries and walk out when they get going. Take separate cars. Just say it is time for me to go. Your husband can follow or not. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 02:12 PM

When I get the friendly needle from people wearing orange, I say "Why , thank you! Orange is one of the three colors of the Irish flag, along with green and white. Look you can see them here on my guitar."


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Clontarf83
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 02:29 PM

I play in a little band that includes me (Dublin Catholic), Denis (Belfast Orange), and Keith (suitably neutral American/Canadian)

Without meaning to get grandiose, we honour both traditions, with music from "orange" and "green" sources, among others

War is over (if you want to)...


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 10:43 PM

Sounds good, Clontarf.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: 3refs
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 04:17 AM

Happy St. Patrick's Day!
I'll be at the rink all day again today, as I have a minor hockey tourny that runs Mon-Fri. Snows just about all gone, fish huts had to be off the lakes on Sunday, wifes at home recouping from surgery and I swear my golf clubs are calling out to me!


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 07:38 AM

I was told that corned beef is rare in Ireland - that, in general, beef is rare in Ireland.

Right on the first count Joe, I have never seen it anywhere here (but I wasn't looking either in fairness). Corned Beef and Cabbage as the ultimate Irish food is a Yank invention, not to be found here. Bacon and cabbage it is every time.

On the second count you're totally wrong. Irish beef is abundant, had a bit of a dip when the Mad Cow came around but it's all back these days. We're surrounded by the feckin cows to be honest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Lox
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 08:30 AM

"When I get the friendly needle from people wearing orange, I say "Why , thank you! Orange is one of the three colors of the Irish flag, along with green and white. Look you can see them here on my guitar." "


Indeed Seamus,

And that is exactly what the colours of the Irish flag represent - Peace (white) between Catholics (Green) and Protestants (Orange).

And in the republic of Ireland this ideal is an accepted norm which is taken for granted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Charmion
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 09:02 AM

Something I heard on the CBC this morning, on the news yet:

"If you're lucky enough to be Irish -- well, you're lucky enough."


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: black walnut
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 11:01 AM

1/4 Irish (my dad's dad was from Dublin) and I'm going to visit Ireland for the first time in just a few weeks. Talk about lucky!

~b.w.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 12:17 PM

Best of luck on your trip, Blackie. It's a beautiful country. I've been there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: gnu
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 12:51 PM

3... right back atcha!


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: black walnut
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 01:56 PM

Gee, thanks!
~b.w.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: PoppaGator
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 03:00 PM

Early Irish immigrants to the northeast (NY/Boston, etc.) couldn't find the pork product they knew as "bacon" (American-style bacon is quite different), and found that the salty corned beef provided by their fellow iummigrants, the Kosher butchers, was a suitable substitiute for cooking with greens such as cabbage, etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Charmion
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 04:29 PM

I believe that a pork product available here in Ottawa under the name "cottage roll" is what we have instead of "Irish bacon." Cottage roll is a boned, rolled pork shoulder, wet-cured with something that makes it almost bubblegum pink. It comes packed in stout plastic, and may be sold frozen. You can eat it straight from the package, or steamed. Slice, and serve with Coleman's mustard ...

Soul food of the Celtic diaspora, fer sure.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: open mike
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 03:33 PM

To Celebrate the Irish yesterday, I went to a local radio station and shared about 6 or 7 c.d.'s on the folk music show. You can see the list of songs and tunes I played on my all-irish radio show on Saturday posted on my blog here www.myspace.com/laurelwoodsorrel. Last weekend I also played live music...i had 4 gigs...with some jigs and reels and hornpipes on the mandolin and several waltzes on the guitar......the Celtic music is wonderful!! I always try to begin or end with "A Health to the Company" a blessing and a toast--with good wishes for all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 09:59 PM

Welcome back, Dave's Wife. Just a few assumptions you made which I would like to clear up:


Katlaughing, you know I adore you and I'm sure your dad would have been very sad if he could have spent a few hours listening to my inlaws harangue me about being Irish and being Catholic, trying to trick me into eating meat on fridays in Lent and telling everyone how relieved they are that I didn't have any children since I likely would have beat them and they would have all had disgusting red hair and freckles. I'm sure to him, the ole Wearin' O'the Orange thing was also a faded memory of an insult passed down to him.


mg is right about your in-laws and I would not put up with it, either. My dad knew very well the kind of prejudice you describe and would have abhorred the way they treat you.

I think the main reason my dad and I found St. Patrick's day to be so important to us was I was the only redhead in the family plus I have green eyes and freckles. I felt very special to have that distinction and was never made to feel negatively about it. (In my 20s I did get nicknamed "Irish" because I had a hot temper and red hair, but it did not offend me.) We are quite proud and happy that my grandson also has red hair AND is getting a sprinkling of freckles across the bridge of his nose. I was mom and dad's "Irish" girl, if you will, with no disrespect or ridicule involved towards me, Ireland or the Church.

As a lot of my dad's friends were Catholic and/or Irish, he also was not remembering an insult passed on. It just was what was...Protestants wore orange (I was in the minority, by the way, and did receive some ridicule from those in green,) and the Catholics wore green. We all wore shamrocks and drank together as friends and neighbours. This was out West, as I said before. I know how different things can be in the East and in the cities. I spent ten years in New England.

I always tell folks the only two prejudices I was really raised with were against Mormons and sheepherders and that is mostly as the two were one in the same when my granddad was growing up on a cattle ranch and had some "run-ins" with them. Thing is we had Mormons in the family and my dad wound up marrying one as did I, though I divorced for other reasons. I also wound up having a couple of bum lambs...go figure!;-) The only real prejudice my dad had about LDS members in his later life was, while living in Utah, he found it very hard to find anyone with which to celebrate St. Patrick's Day, esp. musically.

I hope you find some peace about the way you have been treated and I find it sad you don't feel as though you can go out lest the orange-wearers bother you. I think it is important to remember the bit about the Irish flag and not include individuals in any generalizations.

In Peace,

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 11:43 AM

100!


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 02:23 PM

I spent St. Patrick's Day evening weeping for the first time ever! As I thought of my Mum, and listened to the music of some lovely peeps from Belfast who recently friended me on MySpace: Reel Folk
My Mum wasn't really into Irish folk, but she did introduce me to my very first traditional song 'She Moved Through the Fair' and I still find I 'run the gaunlet' of potential voice crackage in singing it today.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 02:28 PM

Weird, I was sure I put a link there: Reel Folk


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 02:47 PM

I aught to add my Mum's Irish family recipe for lamb stew. It's all a bit rough from memory but includes: neck of lamb, potatoes, leeks and pearl barley all well simmered together until the lamb meat falls away from the bone. Lots of salt and pepper, but no other seasoning. So what you end with is a salty broth thickened with the barley and veggies, which is sweet from the lamb. Lots of all of it piled into a bowl, and I always had second helpings... Yum!
It is fatty though, which for anyone familiar with Irish grub, isn't exactly a shocker.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 03:17 PM

"I was the only redhead in the family plus I have green eyes and freckles."

My Mother (Northern Irish) was very fair: sea blue eyes and light blonde hair. Both her parents had blue eyes too, though one was fair and one was dark. Her brother inherited the dark hair with dark blue eyes. On my fathers side the family come from Liverpool Irish: all blonde or dark hair and blue eyes yet again.
I'm the only green eyed member of my immediate family. I don't have any especially discernable Irish characteristics either. Though friends of mine who are members of the Irish diaspora can be striking in their classic Irish appearance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 03:54 PM

I was shocked to see in Ireland that most of the people did not look Irish to me..and I had two templates..the redhaired and the black Irish like I am descended from..although I don't look it a bit. And this was before massive immigration from Poland etc. Norwegians were not all that blond either frankly. I hate it when stereotypes don't turn out right. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 06:32 PM

Well in looking for some idea of just how many redheads there are in Ireland, I came across the following from Wiki posted on another discussion board:

"Scotland has the highest proportion of redheads, as 13 percent of the population has red hair and approximately 40 percent carries the recessive redhead gene.[8] Ireland has the second highest percentage; as many as 10 percent of the Irish population have red, auburn, or strawberry blond hair.[9] It is thought that up to 46 percent of the Irish population carries the recessive redhead gene. Red hair reaches frequencies of up to 10 percent in Wales.[10]"

My great-grandmother had red hair and was Scottish. I recently found out my mom's maternal ancestors were also Scottish, not English as we'd thought all of these years, so it looks like both of my parents had the recessive gene. From what I've read they both have to have it to produce a redhead.

There's also an interesting article about redheads becoming "extinct" as the numbers seem to be dwindling HERE. It includes some quotes from National Geographic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 06:50 PM

WTF is it all about?
Most of those posting in this thread are Americans!
In Ireland they don't drink green beer, OR, eat corned beef and cabbage.
They celebrate it with a few jars, and that's because, they have nothing to prove, and they are sure of their identitiy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 06:59 PM

Well bully for them. We have made it clear numerous times that we are talking about this from an Irish American perspective and what they do in Ireland is what they do in Ireland and not here. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 07:12 PM

"We have made it clear numerous times that we are talking about this from an Irish American perspective"

Thanks MG - maybe next time you should headline the thread "Irish-American Paddy Day" and no-one will be confused that it might have any reference to actual Irish people like my Mother that I was just waffling on about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 07:26 PM

I might give it some thought but I never use the term Paddy Day..and some actual Irish people like our ancestors became Irish-Americans or their children did and they are the ones who learned the Bing Crosby songs etc. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 07:26 PM

Sorry mg - I know you didn't mean it badly. I'm touchy at the mo'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 08:01 PM

"some actual Irish people like our ancestors"

Mg, I really genuinely don't understand this notion of deep emotional attachment to people you never met.

My Mum was Irish, so I guess I got into the spirit of this thread as a form of connection to her. It rather upset me when you stated that this thread was explicitly for Irish-Americans, rather than for Irish people or their families.
Thanks for the clarification anyway. I'll be more carefull on Mudcat in future.


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Subject: RE: BS: Respect on St. Patrick's Day
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 08:23 PM

Mg - ignore me. I'm weepy.


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