BS: Teacher members of BNP

Subject: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 02:37 AM

Ministers rule out ban on BNP teachers

Just heard on BBC Radio 4 this morning. How can they ban police and prison officers from being members of the British National Party and not teachers?

Seems a bit lopsided. Will discuss this more tonight after work, when I have more time to formulate my thoughts.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: gnomad
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 04:21 AM

The proportion of BNP members in the population at large is quite a small one, and given the expressed views of many teachers I would expect it to be even lower in their profession.

A ban would, IMO, be a sledgehammer approach to a very small nut, as suggested in the linked article. One doesn't vanquish a mindset by simply banning it, its adherents will cling to it all the harder, and will generally try to play the 'martyrdom' card as well. If people hold views you despise the only effective remedy is to reason with them.

I would be happy to support a ban on teachers propounding any and all political views to their pupils, but their private views are just that, private.

I am slightly surprised to learn of the ban among police and prison officers, but given their roles in trying to control disorder I can see why it might be felt necessary. I could imagine sections of either of those professions getting heavily infiltrated, and it isn't a pretty scenario.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 04:47 AM

The problem is that, at the moment, the BNP is a legal political party. I think there is (or should be) enough control in schools to ensure that teachers with extremist views, be they political or religious, do not influence the children. If the kids come home and spout racist views, parents have a right to complain and, I'm sure, they will be taken seriously.

For example, although I am an atheist, my daughter goes to a CofE school because it's the only one in the area. They are taught about religious diversity and the various world religions and I have no worries about her being filled with Christian doctrine - rather she is encouraged to form her own opinions.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 04:54 AM

Why are police officers banned?
They should be able to keep their political beliefs out of their policing duties, otherwise they are not suited to the job. Stopping them joining the BNP will not stop them holding racist views.
During the miners strike there was no call (by the mine owners) to stop police being members of the Labour party, nor were there calls (by the NUM) to prevent police membership of the Conservative party.

I see no problem with teachers being members of the BNP (or even the Labour party) as long as they leave their political beliefs at the school gates & do not try to indoctrinate our children.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: GUEST,Sam Hudson
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 05:01 AM

Well Tam, they are the party of the future, so I am glad they saw sense. Thanks for the add by the way.

This country needs to get it's act together when you consider that the British People Put Last: £63.3 Million in One Week's Foreign Aid to Somalia, Pakistan and Afghanistan.


tatter-flag-moneyLast week the Government handed out £63.3 million in foreign aid to Somalia, Pakistan and Afghanistan — while both Tory and Labour parties have promised to make "far-reaching" domestic spending cuts in Britain.

The latest example of how British people are always put last has come through a series of press releases on the Department for International Development's (DFID) website. These statements are always blacked out by the controlled media for fear of adverse public reaction, but can be viewed by clicking here.

On 10 March, the DFID announced that it was giving £7.5 million to Somalia to provide food, clean water and medicine.

At the same time, the DFID announced a further £5.8 million for a new programme "to help promote peace and stability in the region by supporting reconciliation and local peace building initiatives between clans and communities."

The DFID's 2009–2010 aid programme in Somalia currently totals some £30.5 million.

On 9 March, International Development Secretary Douglas Alexander launched a "new growth programme for Helmand to provide jobs and help for farmers and local businesses."

The Helmand Growth Programme (HGP) will see around "800,000 people benefit from the project in which the Department for International Development is investing £28 million over three years" and will put "in place the foundations for continued growth and job creation."

This grant will, the DFID said, reinforce "the commitment made by the Development Secretary in 2009 to invest £32 million in major infrastructure projects in Helmand, including a 50 km road linking the provincial capital of Lashkar Gah to the economic hub of Gereshk."

On 8 March, the DFID announced that it would give £20 million to "help millions of people affected by conflict in Pakistan."

By 2011, Pakistan will be the UK's second largest development programme worldwide, the DFID has proudly announced — despite Pakistan having a massive army which has nuclear weapons.

The huge cash grants are put into perspective by the Government's failure to address the problem of eight million "economically inactive" people in Britain, and the paltry £12 million given for "deprived white working class areas" in October last year.

Even that £12 million was divided up into 100 identified regions, which means that each area will get £120,000 — not even enough to buy a single new house.

Only the British National Party will put the interests and rights of the British people first and says that these billions should be invested in fighting poverty and deprivation in Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 05:04 AM

What the fuck has that got to do with this thread? Go away you ugly fascist troll.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 05:14 AM

Go away you ugly fascist troll.

Surely he or she has as much right of response as you?

I don't agree, but that's the point.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 05:15 AM

No sooner does one mention the BNP by name on a website than their apologists start bombarding you with propaganda.
It's an unfortunate fact of life.

Something similar happened recently with a thread about the release of John V***b**s one of the murderers of Ja**e B*****r.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 05:25 AM

"Surely he or she has as much right of response as you?"

Perhaps you'd like to explain what this crap has to do with the question posed in this thread. And maybe, for once, you'd actually like to make an intelligent point, GUEST Ed, instead of your usual boring and negative inanities.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 05:27 AM

I'm sorry Nigel, but I don't get your point.

Could you elucidate please?

I'm also curious as to why you refer to Jon Venables and James Bulger with ****?

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 05:44 AM

To: theleveller

My comment of "Surely he or she has as much right of response as you?" was a simple observation of the need for free speech.

If you consider that a "boring and negative inanity" then so be it. I don't really care much about your views frankly.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 05:51 AM

"I don't really care much about your views frankly."

Then stop responding to them. Simple, really!

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 05:56 AM

I would do if you desisted from talking crap.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 06:32 AM

I used those names with asterisks because to quote them in full, as you have, makes them searchable by anyone with internet access. This acts as an open invitation for any pressure groups to come here and post, whether they have any interest in music or not.
My understanding is that the BS section of Mudcat is intended for non-music posts & discussions by the users of the site. Allowing it to act as a magnet for the bile which some persons choose to spread at any opportunity does nothing to bring the joy of music to anyone!

That, of course, is just my understanding of the purposes of this site.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 06:40 AM

Wow, only thirteen posts and the UKers are at it again. Brings to mind, from zero to sixty in ten seconds or whatever the old car adverts claimed.

If you want to do something constructive why not buy a Folk Against Fascism t-shirt, mouse-pad, or other goods from Mudcatter Alice HERE.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 07:01 AM

Like you say kat, everybody has an agenda, even you :)

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: Emma B
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 07:06 AM

If you want to do something constructive check out the Folk against Fascism site which has merchandizing with the FaF logo and a gallery
as well as blogs from British performers and other links and JOIN UP for newsletters about events in the UK

Sorry kat, but while support from across the Atlantic is appreciated this IS a UK issue

The BRITISH NATIONAL PARTY'S manifesto encourages its members to insinuate themselves into the folk and traditional customs of Britain.

This involves the appropriation of British folk music and culture as a means of spreading its peculiar brand of racism and intolerance

Folk Against Fascism WAS created to take a stand against the BNP's targeting of folk music, a stand against the appropriation of our culture.

The BNP's Activists and Organisers Handbook encourages its members to get involved paricularly in the English folk scene

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 07:29 AM

I have to say I'm in two minds over this. On the one hand I loathe fascism and find the idea of BNP trolls corrupting young minds creepy to put it mildly. On the other I believe in the right of everyone to pursue their occupation freely and irrespective of political belief, no matter how repugnant I find those beliefs to be. Perhaps the immediate answer would be for all teachers, right left or centre, to give an undertaking that they will not introduce their personal or political ideologies to the classroom. Any breach of such an undertaking should in my opinion be a sackable offence.

Over and above that, I don't believe that institutional bans are the way to fight fascism. They make martyrs, they make sympathisers and they drive the bastards underground where they are much more difficult to deal with.

The real answer for anyone wanting to fight fascism is to get out there and fight it. March. Demonstrate. Organise. Picket. Hand out leaflets. And above all explain to Joe Public the real nature of fascism and the real nature of the BNP and why they shouldn't be touched with a bargepole.

Oh, and Sam. Go f**k yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: Emma B
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 07:41 AM

John Dunford, the general secretary of the Association of School and College Leaders has also expressed his mixed feelings over this situation

"Schools have a strong, clear ethos of tolerance and understanding, and the vast majority of teachers and staff have no hidden agenda. Of course people with racist views should not be working with young people in schools.

"However it is much less clear that there should be a blanket regulation on the issue.
Existing protocols are already used in schools to deal with anyone whose behaviour is not acceptable, including disciplinary procedures and, if appropriate, dismissal.

"It is right that teachers and others should be forbidden to promote in schools any contentious position: political, religious or discriminatory.
However there is a need for open discussion of difficult topics.

The aim should be genuinely to challenge young people to think for themselves and to form their own opinions rather than to promote a particular ideology."

and, as Fred says...

"above all explain to Joe Public the real nature of fascism and the real nature of the BNP"

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 08:23 AM

I'm sure that any teacher teaching that children were sexual beings and were entitled to pursue sexual activity with persons (or animals) of any age including teachers would speedily be silenced.

Illegal sexual activity ranges from the mildly disapproved (two people of 15 years and 11 months in a stable (for their age) relationship having normal sex) to the plainly nauseating (do I really need to draw a diagram?) - but any teaching of promotion of any of it would bring firm repercussions.

And because of the risk people on the sex offenders' register are barred from teaching and other contact with children.

Since pretty well everything the BNP say or believe is close to the outer limits of loathsome, and, indeed damaging to society, I would be strongly in favour of a total prohibition of the promotion of their doctrines (sort of like Clause 28) and indeed indeed thier presence in schools.

Sam, as one would expect, wholly overlooks that the world needs to work for all, not only the western white.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 08:27 AM

It is fortunate that, from looking at the leading figures in the BNP, they aren't very bright. Many have convictions for racist and violent offences which would preclude them ever working with children or vulnerable adults. What's more, they don't seem to be able to keep their nasty views under wraps, so it's easy to identify them and take appropriate action. As I said above, and John Dusford empasises in Emma B's post, schools are well-able to deal with extremists of whatever view.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: GUEST,HoLo
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 08:37 AM

I always find it troubling when a democracy has so little faith in it's worth and the worth of it's citizens that it bans other political parties, no matter how odious they may be. If democracy cannot risk freedom, then we are sliding inexorably toward something far worse than the BNP..are we not ?

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: Stu
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 09:42 AM

I can't see w*at the f**k's wrong w*th using a*ter*sks during normal e**ing convers*tion on the int*rnet and as f*r as I'm bl**din' concerned if I w*nt to use l*ttle f*cking st*rs everywhere that's my b*stard bus*ness and th*t's th*t.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 10:04 AM

I would be interested to know where the profits from Mudcatter Alice's merchandise are going. Folk Against Fascism is a non-profit organisation which uses the revenue from its merchandise for awareness-raising campaigns, and most recently to fund the production of the first FAF CD. If someone is using the FAF name to create bootleg merchandise and to profit personally from the project, I, as one of the FAF founders, would find it pretty cynical and loathesome. I do not know who Mudcatter Alice is, but I sincerely hope I have misinterpreted the situation. I also hope that Mudcatters will buy all their official FAF merchandise from www.folkagainstfacism.co.uk. Or use the designs there to make their own. But definitely NOT use the name to generate personal profit.

Joan Crump

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 10:18 AM

"If someone is using the FAF name to create bootleg merchandise and to profit personally from the project, I, as one of the FAF founders, would find it pretty cynical and loathesome."

Might be worth checking if you have a legal claim against them, Joan. I guess you'd need to have somehow 'registered' the trademark in the USA - maybe RB can advise?

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 10:24 AM

I have to say it's a bit shitty to see this fake stuff being promoted here on Mudcat. I mean, what is Mudcatter Alice doing for the cause, apart from lining her own pockets?

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: bubblyrat
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 10:42 AM

Leveller   ...Perhaps you'd like to ahere to the ethos of your own manifesto and keep your own nasty views under wraps ?? They do seem a bit extreme ,under the circumstances----if you feel THAT strongly about the BNP,I am sure that your time would be better spent telling THEM,not us !! You could form a new party and call it "Fascists against Fascism",since YOUR views are so extreme and violently intolerant !!

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 10:49 AM

Could she be sending profits to the organisation, Joan? I agree it is awful if not but can we hold judgement until we find out?

Anyway...

I, like others, was of two minds. As much as I loathe the BNP and all it stands for I cannot see how, realisticaly, teachers can be allowed to belong to the Labour or Conservative parties and yet banned from joing other, currently legal, organisations. If the BNP was to be outlawed then fair enough. But at the moment, as long as their members break no laws, they are doing nothing legaly wrong.

However, having thought about it, I have come to realise that when in control of young minds we should not be looking at only the legal aspects. We should be looking at the moral ones. There are a number of organisations that I feel teachers should not be publicly promoting. The BNP is one. I have my own views on the others that I shall not bore you with but that then does give us another dilema.

Who decides which organisations are moraly suitable? Legal and Illegal is cut and dried. But are we to have a morality clause as well? Would it be open to interpretation by the LEA's? How could we check if the potential teachers moral fibre is adequate? By saying membership of certain organisations were to be excluded from holding teaching posts would we just be driving them underground?

I certainly would not like nasty Nick or any of his filthy crew anywhere near my grandson but I don't know how best to prevent it:-(

Dilemas R us...

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: GUEST,David E.
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 10:50 AM

Being in the States I wouldn't pretend to understand the BNP but not allowing someone a job due to their political beliefs sure sounds like fascism to me. Actually it sounds like the college campus scene here, good luck getting a teaching job if you are NOT a card carrying liberal. Sorry England, beautiful country, hope you work it out, but from here, looks like bad news on both sides.

David E.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 11:13 AM

Thanks for the kind advice bubblyrat. Apart from the part about engaging the BNP face to face, which I do at every opportunity, forgive me if I don't take it. If you find my views nasty, it just shows what side of the fence you are on - especially as you have in the past called me a communist, simply for expressing my republican leanings. Perhaps you'd like to take your own advice - but I'm not holding my breath :)

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 11:23 AM

How does outlawing political parties or limiting the rights of certain citizens fight fascism ? I am puzzled by the democracy that puts these kinds of conditions on its citizens. I am also troubled by the venom of some of these posts..people censuring each other in the name of free speech..as they say " I have seen the enemy, and it is us".

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 11:38 AM

Dave, I am aware of the actual donations (as opposed to merch purchases) we've had - none have come from America. Certainly no one has been in touch to tell us that they intend to sell merchandise branded with our name, which is downright rude, questions of intent or morality aside.

Re the topic itself: there is a lot of casual racism and xenophobia by pupils, directed at other pupils, in schools. I find it hard to envisage a member of the BNP dealing effectively with such behaviour. They may not attempt to actively indoctrinate, but in certain situations, their own beliefs could be a barrier to effectively addressing a situation. While we can't know the private beliefs of every single teacher, somehow the thought of actual card-carrying racists having to deal with incidents of racial tension in schools does not fill me with optimism.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 11:59 AM

"not allowing someone a job due to their political beliefs sure sounds like fascism to me"

I don't think that the majority of people here are saying that. What we are saying is that we believe the system will prevent any teacher who sympathises with the BNP from expressing racist, homphobic or other unnacceptable views to children. What you have to realise is, like I said previously, a large number of prominent BNP members have convictions for racism and violence which would mean they can never work with children. Here are some of them:

Tony Lecomber: top BNP official. Three years jail for nailbomb
plot and three years for stabbing a Jewish teacher.
12 convictions in all.
Kevin Scott: north east BNP organiser. Convictions for
assault and threatening behaviour.
Paul Harris: Barnsley BNP council candidate. Convicted of
using threatening behaviour towards a pensioner.
Jason Douglas: leading Greater London BNP candidate.
Convicted football hooligan.
Warren Bennett: BNP chief steward.
Convicted football hooligan.
Stephen Belshaw: Amber Valley BNP
candidate. Convicted of attacking a
Jewish solicitor.
Colin Smith: south east London BNP
organiser. 17 convictions including burglary,
car theft, possession of drugs and
assaulting a police officer.
Darren Dobson: Oldham BNP council candidate.Convicted
of racially aggravated assault.
Frank Forte: Waltham Forest BNP member. Convicted of
actual bodily harm.
Paul Thompson: former Durham and Darlington BNP
organiser.Convicted of criminal damage and for violence.
Neil Keilty: BNP member. Convictions for possessing an
offensive weapon and threatening behaviour.
Gary Mitchell: former Sunderland BNP secretary.Convicted
of racist attacks and possession of offensive weaponry.


So when people think that we're just dealing here with a difference in ideology, bear in mind that this is what we are opposing.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 12:18 PM

Well, David, try telling that to a Rastafarian whose religious beliefs involve the sacred sacrament of 'erb and see how well that goes down in getting him a school-teaching job in the USA. All societies cntrol some types of speech, and all societies control to some extent the political conduct of some people (try "all property is theft" as a defence to a charge of theft in the USA).

All you have succeeded in telling us is that you have some sympathy for the racist fascist thugs who seek to instill hatred in young minds. Well done old chap.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 12:21 PM

Sorry..I was too quick for myself.. "While we can't know the private beliefs of every single teacher" !!!! nor should we, under any circumstances..how do we fight fascism with more fascism..democracy is not an ideology without risk..it is that abilty and willingness to risk diverse views that make it so precious, and you can't preserve it by constraining the right of free speech and free thought. If a teacher, or any employee, is not doing his or her job there ways to deal with that..depriving them of civil rights is NOT one of them !

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 12:23 PM

I don't see what the problem is here. We say everybody has a right to a view in a democracy, right?

Well, in order to have a democracy, you first have to respect one, just one ground rule. That is democracy itself. As the BNP wish to stifle democracy, that makes their views null and void. So, rather than this wishy washy ignore them and they might go away, they have a right to exist in a democracy crap.... ban them and make membership an offence. We do it with terrorist organisations and nobody calls the government fascist for that, so ban these feral thugs too.

They do not have a right to exist as a party and their members are at best misguided, at worst criminals. Their manifestos are criminal and full of the sort of crap we fought a war or two over.

If you wish to form a government, then you must govern for the nation, not just a part of the population. As they have no wish to do this, their repugnant views and thug members need taking off the streets, preferably by the police.

Please refrain from saying they have a the right to a view, becasue they don't in any form of democracy I can think of.

Oh... Sam Hudson. I reckon I know that name? Didn't he do six months for having child porn on his hard disk, but there was insufficient evidence concerning his rape of his neighbour's 9 year old boy? I'm sure that was his name. the same person came up on the membership database I think....

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 12:27 PM

Emma, I know. How anyone could not know what all of this is about and still be on Mudcat seems impossible. I am not belittling it, but it does get tedious when the same people come in and repeat the same slagging off at each other instead of being constructive. Having said that, it's nice to see the thread progressed into something more constructive.

As to Alice...she has been a Mudcatter since almost Day One and has the respect of all who know her. She is a wonderful artist who has created logos for the Layabout Bros. At Large aka Big Mick, Catspaw and some others and also provided artwork for other Mudcatters free of charge. Joan, I can tell you with no doubt at all that the last thing on Alice's mind for offering her design on goods has anything to do with nefarious intent. She is not a person who puts herself out there, so I asked her permission to let folks know about her designs. I will send her a PM and ask her to come in here or to PM you, Joan.

Lastly, I would say this is not really just a UK matter; ilk like the BNP exist everywhere and learning from each other on how to deal with them can be of value to anyone who abhors them and their agendas.

Thank you,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: GUEST,David E.
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 12:39 PM

"All you have succeeded in telling us is that you have some sympathy for the racist fascist thugs who seek to instill hatred in young minds."

Like I did say, I don't know the BNP from the Labor Party, but I do know fascism when I see it.   

David E.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 12:44 PM

PLEASE NOTE:

Alice is taking down the stuff she has listed as she says:

I had no idea there was even a group by that name, as I don't follow the UK political threads.

I'll take it down.

Rest assured, she will follow through and take it down.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 12:53 PM

It said on her page that it was "a requested design", so maybe someone suggested it to her without fully informing her of the nature of the organisation? Anyway it's a pity it's not official merchandise after all, as I totally wanted that messenger bag!

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 01:01 PM

""While we can't know the private beliefs of every single teacher" !!!! nor should we, under any circumstances."

You misunderstand me. My point is that just because someone's not a member of the BNP, doesn't mean they're not a racist. Goodness knows how many teachers there are who hold racially or socially prejuduced views, nor how their prejudices are reflected in their dealings with different students, if not through their teaching. However, if someone IS a card-carrying racist, we have a clear indicator that their dealings with certain students may well be biased. While we may not be able to do much about the former, we CAN respond to the latter - and I think we should. I do not think BNP members should be teachers.

Re Alice's FAF merch: I have exchanged PMs with Alice and she is taking the page down. All is good. It would appear to be a case of crossed wires.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 01:16 PM

So are we to have some government committee designed to tell us what jobs we are fit for based on our private or political beliefs. I find bigots and fascists offensive as does any decent human being..however, I would be terrified by any law which assumes to divide citizens into fit and unfit persons for certain types of employment. Do we stop at teachers...where next, who next ? As I said, there are many ways to deal with people who abuse thier positions, depriving them of civil rights should never be one of them..if becomes one, then we are all at risk. We have seen this happen before and we should know better. All I really wish to convey is that I fear any government who claims to be protecting my rights by taking away the rights of others.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: Anne Lister
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 01:19 PM

There is another news item on the BBC website, to the effect that the BNP have been disallowed by Race Relations legislation from increasing their membership until they can frame their membership requirements in such a way that it convinces the relevant judges that it's not discrimatory.

As to teachers ... the teachers who might want to be card-carrying members of this unpleasant party are highly unlikely to be working in schools where their beliefs might be challenged. I'm thinking of the schools I've worked at in various parts of London where the kids would be very sensitive to any degree of racism and wouldn't be likely to give those teachers any leeway in the classroom. And that's what's most worrying, really - I've come across far more unconscious (and conscious) racist attitudes in schools where there are no ethnic or religious minorities. Maybe, rather than banning teachers from becoming members of the BNP they should be required to work in schools where they might come across some vigorous debate from staff, parents and pupils?

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 01:25 PM

Glad it all turned out, Joan. Just shows that Bob Hoskins was right after all. It's good to talk:-)

The more I think about this the more ridiculous it seems that anyone would justify that an apologist for Adolph Hitler (or Stalin or Pohl Pot or any other of the same ilk) should be allowed to teach our children. Imagine the history lessons?

"Well, you will hear a lot about places like Belsen and Auswitz but if you look a little deeper you will find..."

Sickening!

Even if they manage to hide their true views they cannot help but give a slant to the lessons. And the covert suggestions may be even worse the the overt one above!

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 01:29 PM

Maybe Alice could get a franchise from FaF so that the stuff remained available and FaF got extra funds: surely a better outcome than desired merchandise vanishing and FaF getting no funding.

HiLo, you are not seeing the connection. Many people are denied many types of employment or occupation. People on the sex offenders register are barred from all contact (paid or unpaid) with children. People who have been disqualified from driving cannot be taxi drivers. People who have not passed the requisite tests cannot be doctors or lawyers.

The BNP grunts are still at it. They have no desire to participate in any democracy. They are still using fake profiles on Facebook, Bebo, MySpace and a couple of other things in the USA the names of which escape me right now, using the names of other people, using pictures of other people, falsely to portray people as supporting them, and by implication to send the threatening message that the grunts with their range of convictions for firearms offences and violence are watching us.

They have no place in a civilised society.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 01:29 PM

Anne, what about the school I worked in a couple of weeks ago where, in an Ethics lesson in RE, a group of kids (year 10) said that one of the rules they would create to make society better would be to "get rid of all the Pakis and the immigrants"? How is teacher who is a a card-carrying member of the BNP going to navigate that particular minefield?

And what about when breaking up fights or settling disputes between white British and non-white or non-British students? Would you not be a bit concerned that a teacher who was a member of the BNP would be inclined to favour the white kid?

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 01:42 PM

I was a Communist and a folkie for many years, I'm sure the views of the Communist Party were as "loathsome" to many as the views of the BNP, yet I was made welcome and met many new "comrades" in the folk community.

Why the double standards?

Read and understand Guest HoLo's post

Freedom, not Orwellian madness!

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 01:45 PM

because being a member of the BNP is not like being a member of the Communist (or any other) UK party. It means that teachers are actively prejudiced against a constituency of students. They may even question their right to even be in this country, let alone have the best possible education. Their treatment of those students may well reflect their racist views. That's why.

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 01:47 PM

Ah, yes, Akenaton, that's freedom for all apart from travellers is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Teacher members of BNP
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 12 Mar 10 - 02:11 PM

Thinking about Anne Lister's idea, that teachers who are members of the BNP should not be banned but made to work where their ideas will be challenged.

I am wondering... challenged by who? Some students certainly are not equipped to deal with any potentially racist treatment. It seems to me that the teacher would either intimidate or ignore minority students. Perhaps students would stand up for themselves and for others, but is it right that they should be put in a situation that may have to?

What happens to the 11 or 12 year old who is repeatedly ignored by said teacher? Who cannot understand why his paper did not make as high a mark as the thickest white kid in his class. What if his parents are not English speakers and cannot come to his defence?

Sorry... it is not worth risking even one incident on one child. And as Ruth said, if someone publicly embraces racism and homophobia, that person is not suitable to be in a position of authority over any vulnerable person.