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BS: Folk Communities separate but equal ok?

*#1 PEASANT* 13 Mar 10 - 01:30 PM
Bonzo3legs 13 Mar 10 - 01:46 PM
catspaw49 13 Mar 10 - 02:58 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 13 Mar 10 - 03:28 PM
gnu 13 Mar 10 - 03:35 PM
catspaw49 13 Mar 10 - 03:45 PM
Joe Offer 13 Mar 10 - 03:54 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 13 Mar 10 - 06:57 PM
The Borchester Echo 13 Mar 10 - 07:45 PM
artbrooks 13 Mar 10 - 08:08 PM
Joe Offer 13 Mar 10 - 08:51 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 13 Mar 10 - 09:01 PM
Joe Offer 13 Mar 10 - 09:12 PM
catspaw49 13 Mar 10 - 09:24 PM
Joe Offer 13 Mar 10 - 09:28 PM
GUEST,Stringsinger 14 Mar 10 - 12:45 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 14 Mar 10 - 01:11 PM
TheSnail 14 Mar 10 - 02:57 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Mar 10 - 08:36 PM
bubblyrat 15 Mar 10 - 01:08 PM
*#1 PEASANT* 15 Mar 10 - 01:31 PM

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Subject: BS: Folk Communities separate but equal ok?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 01:30 PM

In the folk world there are many different groups- markets you might say from the business point of view.

-Ordinary folk who just play music, compose music, dont necessairly go anywhere special to do it.

-Audience interested in music will buy cds attend events but middle to lower class in income. perhaps your typical festival gower and occasional concert goer

-Premium audiences those who can afford almost any ticket price and go to concerts frequently, maybe fly to attend conventions.

-Audiences who like the music but are not able to spend money on it maybe play it

Ok just a few points on the spectrum.

Talking with folkies here it seems that many seem to think that each group needs "separate but equal" treatment. That is that there is nothing wrong with supporting and enabling high priced venues with higher than retail costs for food and drink because it serves a specific segment of the population who can afford to be there. Others who can not attend are not a concern....


Others can make do with free concerts given from time to time or the slightly less expensive festivals.

Maybe some can just buy cds and listen to the radio.

Most of the people are probably not in the higher income upper class afford almost anything category.

Is it right for folkies musicians and organizers to pursue strategies built upon the inherent equality of separate groups that they manage as such?

Such strategies may derive from the existence of the groups but don't they also maintain these differences?

Couldn't we do with a little less planning for "separate but equal" and more planning for broadening the market by increassing accessibility by managing costs more creativly?

Resting content with economic segregation may reflect the market but is that the sort of market we need to perpetuate?

Doesent the perpetuation of a system whereby so many are locked out eventully limit our financial success in business, by excluding volume, and our mission to maintain and extend the music?

Conrad


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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Communities separate but equal ok?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 01:46 PM

How much is a pint of beer, and how many pints would an average beer drinker consume in an evening - for my calculations?


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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Communities separate but equal ok?
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 02:58 PM

Say what?

If a train left Phoenix travelling at 67 mph and arrived in Liverpool at 12:31 and weighed in at 380,000 pounds on the drivers, then how many mopeds could be unloaded in Perth to account for the fuel shortage in 1974?

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Communities separate but equal ok?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 03:28 PM

Nice one Spaw.......ROFLMAO!

My keyboard has just been liberally sprayed with canned Bodington's Bitter.

Conrad, why don't you go spout it on Speakers' Corner in Hyde Park.

They lap up over-the-top obsessives.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Communities separate but equal ok?
From: gnu
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 03:35 PM

Spaw... trick question, you devil you! The answer is obviously 17.

What do I win?


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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Communities separate but equal ok?
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 03:45 PM

I'm sorry gnu but the answer is 128 and not 17. I think you forgot to add in the length of time given on a Mickey Mouse watch to extricate two Albanian hat blockers from a restaurant in Whitehorse after feasting on whale blubber and carp.

I'm sure you can now see your mistake and thanks for playing!

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Communities separate but equal ok?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 03:54 PM

Well, I'm drinking coffee at the moment - still a little too early for beer here in California. But what do I do with the coffee that got sprayed all over my desk and monitor?

But hey, Bonzo3legs gave a very profound answer to Conrad's question. The ANSWER is that Conrad continues to ask the wrong QUESTION. The "commercial model" of folk music is dead. If you think you can make a living off folk music, you must be either crazy or Seamus Kennedy.

Conrad, ya gotta get this straight - folk music is not a business, at least it isn't in the U.S. You can make a better income at McDonald's as an assistant hamburger flipper. Folk music is music that people make themselves and with others. That's the wonderful thing about it. You can go somewhere and drink a couple beers, and hear wonderful music, and not pay big bucks for tickets. Or if you want to get extravagant, you can go to somebody's house and make a donation of ten or twenty bucks to hear an excellent performance. If you can't afford that, sometimes the host can make an exception for you. And yes, I suppose there still are some festivals that might make some income for somebody - but most folk festivals I've seen still cost less for a weekend, than the admission for a two-hour concert from a pop performer. And DC and San Francisco and other places have free folk festivals. Now, the situation in the UK is quite different, but you and I don't live there.

But Conrad, I think you're starting far too many threads that are more-or-less on the same theme. Instead of that, why not build on threads you've already started. You can find them with the Filter, or by clicking on your name in any message you've posted.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Communities separate but equal ok?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 06:57 PM

I think this thread title gets closer to what I have been working with. It is different.

Yes.....folk musicians responding here tend to be telling me that it is their business.

They join unions, go to conventions and fly from one city to another to do jobs.

However.....

Despite the fact that you and others tell me that there is no money in it the same musicians will not investigate ways to increase their audiences by re structuring the food chain from supplyer to venue operator to musician to customer.

Yes one can choose to go to any number of venues however, for many choices are limited due to high costs.

So I ask folk musicians why don't they look into profit taking levels up the food chain and they say no need.

I tell them that convention attendance is nice but it drives up costs and I tell them that flying from gig to gig also raises costs overall.

The bottom line is that wether or not musicians make a fortune or not they seem to be enabling economic segregation.

This narrows rather than expands the market for them and limits accessibility.

The question is do folk musicians wish to expand their market or rest content with a relativly small part of the potential market that can easily afford to pay three hundred present of the retail price for a pint while essentially locking a lot of people out.

Not everyone can get extravagant and that is segregation and that limits the potential growth of both folk music and the professionals.

If there is more work trying to make it more affordable maybe prices can come down maybe not but it is better than simply doing nothing and say ok.....we must remain elite, small and exclusive.

Trouble is that if you don't look into the restructuring of costs and profit taking then you can't complain about not making much money.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Communities separate but equal ok?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 07:45 PM

I'm just back from a concert by two fine musicians whose combined age comes to 35. It was a blast. Tom Moore is still at school and Matt Quinn is on the Traditional Music course at Newcastle. So you might say they are not yet "in the business" but they certainly are "the business" (if you follow). Supporting from the floor, musicians included Tom Paley, Pete Morton, Mai Hernon and Andy Turner. OK, Andy does have a day job but who could dispute that these are some of the finest in the industry. The musbiz is a business and tonight was simply a good and typical music night in London. Musicians are making a living, though sadly not a sufficiently good one in many cases. The fault lies with crap venues and archaic pricing policies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Communities separate but equal ok?
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 08:08 PM

Your question : My answer: it is all the same community. Costs do not need to be managed at the local/festival level. Nobody is priced out of anything. If you want to try to get Dylan to perform free for you, go for it.

Joe, how about combining this with the other identical thread...use this title if he prefers it...its easier to know which threads I'm ignoring that way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Communities separate but equal ok?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 08:51 PM

Well, I'm not going to do that, Art - but I do wonder how this thread is different from Why Is Folk such a Small Market? - and there are a number of other threads that are closely related, all started by Conrad.

What's the deal, Conrad? Are you just going to keep starting threads on the same subject until you get people to tell you what you want them to say>?

Then there was "should bottled beer be banned" and its twin, "Should drink pitchers be required for folk venues." Nope, triplets: "Should every round come in a clean glass."

And here's one I'm still trying to figure out: "Folklore: Did folk use napkins, coasters or none?" That fits right on the plate with "What is your folkie meat pie recipe?"

As my boss the nun says, "Jeesum Cripes," Conrad. Back off, willya?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Communities separate but equal ok?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 09:01 PM

Creativity just creativity. Hey....prior to a week ago I hadn't been here for a very long time. So actually averaging out over a year or several its not bad. I do feel strongly about the pitcher of beer issue. Especially in mexican places I get tired of bottles filling the table in five minutes and having to do without waiting for the waiter.

I prefer coasters even though maybe they do influence sound but you know you dont see many coasters lately but then I just set my gallon jug of carlo rossi's piassano on the mulch out back when I play whistle sitting in my dentists chair under the large satelite dish suspended from a tree branch.....so I guess my choice is none especially if it lowers overhead.

No I just feel that I am not making my point and then think up another way to put it.

Maybe I should write about something else.....maybe superwhistles.

Could not find a thread on that perhaps you could direct me to one as there must be one in the archive. I did try google....

Conrad


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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Communities separate but equal ok?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 09:12 PM

Creativity is coming up with new stuff, Conrad, not just repeating the old stuff with a different title - corporate executives and politicians do it, but we're supposed to be above that.

-Joe-

P.S. Spaw and Sorcha, I may agree with you - but your posts sounded too much like personal attacks. It's pretty hard to pretend to ignore them, when I'm posting in the same thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Communities separate but equal ok?
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 09:24 PM

Joe........Conrad is the CEO of the "Goofus-Crap Emporium" where he sells his horn coats, artcars, and happycrappy bicycles, so his mentality or lack thereof is geared to rehashing the same crappola over and over. He does add to it though as it gets nuttier each time he summarizes it.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Communities separate but equal ok?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Mar 10 - 09:28 PM

Well....let's just say that Conrad tends to repeat himself. Maybe he's getting old.

Maybe  I'm  getting old. Nonetheless, please attempt to maintain a more generous tone - Please? You can tell people specifically what they're full of - but just don't characterize it as "shit."

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Communities separate but equal ok?
From: GUEST,Stringsinger
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 12:45 PM

"Folk community" can be a misnomer. What does it really mean?

A folk community is one in which there is a definable sub-culture, not a media-driven
commercial edifice such as rock or hip-hop.

Audience "aficianados" do not define a folk culture any more than a spectator in
the grand stand is a member of the ball team.


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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Communities separate but equal ok?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 01:11 PM

Depends upon the purpose of the definition.
There is a community of individuals who relate in one way or the other to folk music and other such cultural productions.

A spectrum depending on what aspect of whatever you are measuring.

But on those spectrums of variables there are recognizable points.

I find that one dimension to look at is ability to spend money- amount of ready disposible income.

Some have more some less some none.

The trick is to let as many in to leave you their money as possible without concentrating on one end or another. If you concentrate on one end say the end with more money you will loose the other and therefore suffer a loss of volume of sales or attendence.

So it is not to say that you dont make money but that you do it in a more efficient manner which serves more people.

Remember Daniel O'connell of Ireland the great dan the great liberator. His greatest achievement was to arrange to have the dues for membership in the Catholic party drastically lowered. When he did so no one lost money, quite the contrary every catholic was able to join and contribute and that was a vast number which put him into office where he could wear his hat in parlament but it did not save him from death via hemroids (true story) but another one....

If you open the doors wider more folk will be able to come in sooner.

But you have to get rid of the status quo of resting content with th mono crop of the wealthy.

Conrad


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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Communities separate but equal ok?
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 02:57 PM

Don(Wyziwyg)T

My keyboard has just been liberally sprayed with canned Bodington's Bitter.

Why? What were you using it for? Wiping the screen? Cleaning the lino? Putting a fire out? You're not going to tell me you were drinking the stuff are you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Communities separate but equal ok?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Mar 10 - 08:36 PM

It was that or John Smiths, or Tesco value.

Gimme a break Bryan, I can't afford to have Real Ale piped in.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Communities separate but equal ok?
From: bubblyrat
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 01:08 PM

Here in Britain,most of us don't really GIVE a damn,Conrad. We sing,play,attend festivals,have fun,learn new things and ,sometimes,form new relationships with other people. We do NOT worry,analyse,question, interpret,fret over,or seek to understand the meaning (if there is one) of what we do. So who cares,and what's your problem here ?? It is just folk music, not rocket science !


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Subject: RE: BS: Folk Communities separate but equal ok?
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 01:31 PM

Exactly - the Newman (Mad Magazine) approach

"what me worry"

....thought so

Conrad


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