BS: Immigration in America

Subject: BS: Immigration in America
From: Amos
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 12:03 PM

The nation has had immigration issues since the first Irishmen floated ashore in a curragh and were met by Vikings telling them to go home. In the early years of the 20th century Mexicans trying to cross the Rio Grande to find a better life were met with rifle shots from the American bank , with whole families bleeding to death on the banks of the river.

The issue has become a major political football today.

Thomas Friedman offers a very persuasive description of why rational immigration policy should encourage rather than try to throttle immigration into the country.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration in America
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 12:14 PM

I always thought America was made up almost totally of immigrants, bar the handful of Native Americans who managed to avoid being slaughtered.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration in America
From: michaelr
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 12:34 PM

"...keeping a constant flow of legal immigrants into our country — whether they wear blue collars or lab coats — is the key to keeping us ahead of China. Because when you mix all of these energetic, high-aspiring people with a democratic system and free markets, magic happens. If we hope to keep that magic, we need immigration reform that guarantees that we will always attract and retain, in an orderly fashion, the world's first-round aspirational and intellectual draft choices."

Too true. With the dumbing down of America proceeding at spiraling speed, it's only the immigrants who can save us from becoming a third-rate country.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration in America
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 12:52 PM

Saw in the New Mexican today that students from small New Mexico towns have gone to Washington to demonstrate in favor of immigration reform.
May the immigrants from Latin America blend into the American pot, much as did the Irish, Germans and others in past years.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration in America
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 01:04 PM

This is what I see in my children's high school--the highest achieving kids are often foreign-born or first gen immigrants. For all that critics see them as foreign, they see themselves as American.

More power to them! (And lets get access to health insurance set up for those who aren't documented--and give the kids who are undocumented but graduating from high school and want to go to college a break. Those who want to hold them back shoot us all in the foot.)

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration in America
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 03:26 PM

Suggested reading:


Hingham, John: Strangers In The Land - Patterns of American Nativism 1860-1925 .New York. Athaneum, 1973.

Spiro, John Peter: Defending the Master Race Lebanon, NH. Univ. of Vermont Press, 2009.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration in America
From: gnu
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 03:51 PM

Amos... "The nation has had immigration issues since the first Irishmen floated ashore in a curragh and were met by Vikings telling them to go home."

The Beothuks told the Vikings to go home and they said no. The Vikings met a sad demise. But, it was a battle in a war they could not win in the end. There are no Beothuks.

The Spainish were met by Plains Tribes who... see where this is going?

And, it will go, but, will it be different next time? Will history teach us all? Will we embrace peace?

Not likely... the rich have too much too lose. And the poor cannot win against the rich. The rich outweigh the poor and the middle class is a tool for the rich against the poor.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration in America
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 04:40 PM

Jim Carroll said:

I always thought America was made up almost totally of immigrants, bar the handful of Native Americans who managed to avoid being slaughtered.

Sure. You were right, too, more or less. I take it you were mainly referring to what we can call the pre-white Hispanic population. But it goes back further than that, and you can't really bar the Native Americans from the statement.

Their ancestors came here too, at some remote time.

We (and our ancestors) ALL came here from somewhere.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration in America
From: Rowan
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 07:15 PM

But I suspect the first Asian immigrants (40+K to 12K years ago; take your pick) found the place unoccupied by people of any sort.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration in America
From: bobad
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 07:32 PM

That is an important distinction, settlement versus displacement.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration in America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 08:38 AM

At the root of the problem of human migration today-- almost any place on the planet--is the growing concern about population. Human numbers are increasing at an alarming rate, something few folks were concerned about when the first Irishman came to America.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration in America
From: Mr Happy
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 07:38 AM

Native Americans??

The people referred to as this are also immgrants, from Asia

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration in America
From: Stu
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 08:04 AM

"The people referred to as this are also immgrants, from Asia"

Hmmm. Seeing as they were there first as far as we know, and had been since they crossed the Bering Straits calling them Native is not really an issue. They were't immigrants in the sense used in this discussion.

"That is an important distinction, settlement versus displacement."

Settlement verses genocide and oppression as well as displacement.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration in America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 08:23 AM

The people we call native Americans now came from Asia. The people who were here before them might have come from someplace else. With DNA we'll probably know someday.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration in America
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 12:41 PM

Every one comes from somewhere else!!

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration in America
From: Mr Happy
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 07:23 AM

.......IMO, this is a fundamental issue with controlled migration.

Humans, like many other life forms on earth, are naturally migratory/nomadic.

That is, we've evolved to move around from our place of birth/origin to seek out resources - food, shelter, economic enhancement, improved living conditions.

Provided individuals &/or their fami;y groups have the wherewithall to move on further afield, there really shouldn't be the political barriers to this process.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration in America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 08:01 AM

The barriers are only the barriers of survival.

             I can remember when all kinds of people threw soiled disposable diapers out their car windows on the freeway. We managed to put a stop to that, why can't we do something about population growth?

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration in America
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 10:56 AM

Worked for the Chinese, didn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration in America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 11:23 AM

Which is why they have become the economic engine they are!

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration in America
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 11:38 AM

Certainly not all immigration is equally beneficial. Illegal immigrants lowering the wages of skilled trades to unsustainable levels then sending the bulk of their pay to their home countries is more of a burden than a boon.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration in America
From: Mr Happy
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 11:44 AM

Well surely it'd be better all round if the 'illegals' were legalised, then they'd have to pay taxes like everyone else

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration in America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 12:41 PM

If they made enough money to pay taxes, they'd pay taxes. Otherwise they'd become a bigger drain on the economy than they are now.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration in America
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 01:22 PM

They do pay taxes if their income is sufficient. They receive tax forms like everybody else, deductions made by their employer, etc.

They cannot claim the benefits, however- this is one of the main reasons for reform of the present chaotic system.

Immigrants who work are a plus for the economy, legal or illegal.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration in America
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 01:44 PM

Amos began this with a link to an article by Thomas L. Friedman, a VERY respected writer. How many of you read what he had to say before you inserted your own short, pithy slogan about what YOU think is relevant?

Here's one short remark from the article.
"I think keeping a constant flow of legal immigrants into our country — whether they wear blue collars or lab coats — is the key to keeping us ahead of China.

Everyone MUST realize that policies on such things must change with the times. What was sane, reasonable immigration policy 100-150 years ago when we really needed people just won't work today. Even Friedman doesn't go on in this article to point out why.

Yes, immigration IS an important part of who we are and how we can keep pace with a changing world, but we simply cannot take in everyone who has a notion that 'life would be better' in the US than....wherever. We have certain basic rules and quotas and procedures, but in a fairly 'open' society, these are often poorly enforced and easily flouted. Then we have the awkward problem of how to deal with illegals, both recent and, more complicated, those who manage to avoid notice for a few years and raise a family- because the US recognizes children born here as citizens.
Should we just reward the sneakiest and cleverest by granting them amnesty? Won't this just encourage others even more?
Fast changing demographics is a **serious** problem....just ask any school system which has to provide services in several languages...or hospitals which are required to treat emergencies, even when illegals treat a hospital emergency room just as a 'free clinic' for whatever is wrong.
It is all very well to cite ethical & moral values and express compassion for desperate people "just trying to find a better life", but do the math! We cannot absorb unlimited numbers forever!
Thomas Friedman needs to use his enormous influence and resources to address this issue, rather than just focusing on the undoubted virtues of 'legal' immigration.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration in America
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 03:05 PM

Legal immigrants to Canada have now provided some 20% of the population to the city of Calgary, over 200,000 in a city of 1,000,000 approx.
The school system has to deal with several languages; ESL (English as a second language) is an important part of the curiculum.

Other cities in Canada have had to revise their school curiculum- Vancouver in just a few years will have more people of Asian descent than European.

These immigrants are good for the economy, and help Canada grow.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration in America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 05:06 PM

"They do pay taxes if their income is sufficient. They receive tax forms like everybody else, deductions made by their employer, etc..."

          Q - Where have you been? These people don't pay taxes, they work under the table for cash. That's why people hire them. If the employee isn't paying his share of the payroll tax, the employer doesn't have to pay his share either.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration in America
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 07:34 PM

True in some cases, untrue in others.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration in America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 12:51 PM

"...keeping a constant flow of legal immigrants into our country... ...is the key to keeping us ahead of China."

          Actually, keeping a handle on population growth, like China has, is key to keeping us ahead of China.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration in America
From: Sawzaw
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 01:31 PM

"bar the handful of Native Americans"

Didn't they immigrate from Siberia over the Behring isthmus?

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration in America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 02:29 PM

Some of them did. Others floated across the Pacific on leaves.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration in America
From: Sawzaw
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 05:18 PM

Some say the Aztecs came from Egypt in reed boats.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration in America
From: gnu
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 05:21 PM

Con Tiki?

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration in America
From: Stringsinger
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 07:09 PM

Jim Carroll is right. In the US everyone and their ancestors came originally from someplace else. Being an immigrant is American.

When the Germans immigrated, they didn't like the Irish. No one liked the Jews.
Then of course the legitimate rights of Black people were stolen. They were slaves as well as indentured Irish here as well.

The idea that there is an immigrant problem in America is racist.

The problem lies with the immigration policies and the policing.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration in America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 09:11 PM

Well, I would certainly agree with that, Stringsinger. The root of the problema all the way through are American policies. But the problem of a massive growth in population numbers around the world in relatively recent.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration in America
From: Sawzaw
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 01:08 AM

Con Tiki?

I read that book ages ago.

It was Kon Tiki by Thor Hyderdal.

He built a log raft then sailed from South America east to try to prove Polynesians came from South America.

Later on I believe he tried to sail a papyrus raft from Egypt to SA to try to prove the Aztecs, Maya and Inca came from Egypt

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor_Heyerdahl


I havn't read a book in years. They just don't grab me anymore. I think the internet has supplated reading books.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration in America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 03:52 PM

There's a lot to speculate about a connection between Central America and Egypt.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration in America
From: mousethief
Date: 03 Apr 10 - 10:20 PM

The birthrate is below replacement in virtually all "first world" countries. Their populations will continue to rise for a little while, then start to decline precipitously. Immigration will start to seem like a very good idea, if only to pay for their very expensive entitlement programs.

Re: Illegal Hispanics in the US: Those living in states / counties with sales tax are definitely paying tax, at least at the local/state level.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration in America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Apr 10 - 01:40 AM

Actually, a lower population is probably what the planet needs.

    :Illegal Hispanics... living in states / counties with sales tax are definitely paying tax, at least at the local/state level."

          Unless the live along the border and go back to Mexico to do their major shopping. And even if they don't, they often consume much more in services than they pay in taxes.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration in America
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 04 Apr 10 - 07:05 AM

Worked for the Chinese, didn't it? I hate throw away comments like that.

At what cost?

The Chinese Holocaust of girls

Things in The Dying Rooms (orphanages filled with abandoned girls) have improved since 1995, but they can afford to do better now because they purged the population.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration in America
From: Amos
Date: 04 Apr 10 - 11:25 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration in America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Apr 10 - 02:03 PM

Well said!

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration in America
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 04 Apr 10 - 02:20 PM

Wow, no wonder the US members get so fucked-off at the BNP threads here..

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration in America
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 04 Apr 10 - 02:33 PM

Jim Carroll & Joe Offer express the most rational positions I can see.

I have absolutely no clue how a settled group of people can claim any rightful dominion over lands compared to those peoples who are descended from the very same inhabitants that the European colonists* "ethnically cleansed" (or Native American Genocide if you prefer) during the colonisation of the Americas.






*Please note I refer to European colonists here, not settled "Americans".

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration in America
From: Sorcha
Date: 04 Apr 10 - 02:51 PM

I think we ALL came out of Africa. That ought to trip somebody's trigger. Like the BNP, et al.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration in America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Apr 10 - 05:50 PM

I don't know about the BNP, but it goes a long way to advancing the argument for limiting immigration, tightening the borders, and doing away with birthright citizenship in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration in America
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Apr 10 - 07:14 PM

Immigration is GREAT!!..Do it legally!!..or shut the fuck up
..or perhaps we can all get to pick a law that WE get to ignore!
Nothing against any people, or natioality, so don't hit me with the usual hate speech, by calling me or anyone else a bigot..that's bullshit!
Just do it legally!
GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration in America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Apr 10 - 09:12 PM

I've decided to ignore the law against bank robbery.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration in America
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 02:53 AM

Yeah, but that's a one that's different........how about something there are no consequences...you' know, it's just 'against the law'....how about not paying into health care reform????...then you'd be 'EQUAL' like 'EQUALITY', man, to the the 'immigrants' (read: ILLEGAL aliens, who don't pay taxes, and send the money back home,..which of course, takes it out of circulation....and, hey...the latest stats say the are 14 million of them here,,,,hey, you thought I was talking about ILLEGAL aliens???....NO!..I was talking about the unemployed! Wait!...the numbers are the same!..how about that??!!??

Yep, we love ILLEGAL aliens...so does our economy..........and all those jobs, that we Americans just think that is below us....Jeez, I'd rather have my house foreclosed on, than take one of THOSE jobs!!! Yukky!

Yay, Liberal thinking!!!....It's what's left after the right did nothing but pander to them... Hey, do you think they're working together, and the rest is just street theater?...Makes sense to me!

If it doesn't, to you...think larger!...or bigger......See Spot run!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration in America
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 06:42 PM

It would make more sense to provide consequences for being in the country illegally. Maybe under some terror statute of something.

Subject: RE: BS: Immigration in America
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Apr 10 - 11:25 PM

Naww, let's not go 'terror' crazy......but then let's not get so EMOTIONAL about it, that we leave common sense out the window, either way... The problem is, those liberals just don't like to delve into FACTS!
GfS