BS: Mobile Phone Masts. Health hazard?

Subject: BS: Mobile Phone Masts. Health hazard?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 05:28 AM

I've just learned that a mobile phone company has applied for planning permission to erect a phone mast not far from where I live.

I must confess that I'm not up to speed with the debate over the risks which phone masts pose to public health. If anyone can point me towards any intelligent discussion,preferably on-line, I'd be most grateful.

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile Phone Masts. Health hazard?
From: gnomad
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 06:30 AM

Intelligent discussion can be hard to track down on any topic, so I'll leave that question to those who know.

Perhaps the OFCOM Mast Locator site http://www.sitefinder.ofcom.org.uk/ might be of interest to some. It includes some official info about emissions, and various links, as well as the possibility of searching the UK mast database. Are you in the UK, Fred?

It might aid the discussion if you indicated how far "not far" stretches.

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile Phone Masts. Health hazard?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 06:53 AM

Evidence is coming in that suggest microwaves may pose a risk.
If so, it is the handset that poses the greatest risk.
Only worry about the masts if you do not use a cell phone.

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile Phone Masts. Health hazard?
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 08:15 AM

I spoke to a local musician, Michael Mahoney (flute player), a few years ago; he was convinced that a nearby mast had given him cancer since it was erected. He actually died of cancer recently.

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile Phone Masts. Health hazard?
From: artbrooks
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 08:53 AM

The American Cancer Society says no, except possibly if you are standing on top of the tower directly in front of the antenna. More here.

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile Phone Masts. Health hazard?
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 12:22 PM

It could fall on you, but that's probably the only way you could in the normal course of events be harmed.

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile Phone Masts. Health hazard?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 01:02 PM

The phones themselves are probably more dangerous than the masts, but I wouldn't want to live right next to one.

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile Phone Masts. Health hazard?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 01:20 PM

I do maintenance work at a women's center located in a former fire station that has a five-story hose drying tower. Sprint-Nextel offered us a thousand dollars a month to rent our tower for use as a cell phone antenna mast - this was enough to pay our mortgage.
We had some concerns about radiation, so we researched the matter quite thoroughly. We found no credible indication that the tower would pose any harm to our clients and staff.
Still, it makes me a bit nervous, especially when I have to climb the tower right next to the huge cables that feed the antennas. I'm glad I'm not there round-the-clock.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile Phone Masts. Health hazard?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 01:22 PM

The rule of thumb is, if the radiation is IONIZING - that is, if it knocks electrons out of their orbits, then it is very dangerous to health indeed. X-rays and gamma rays fall into this category.

Radio frequency waves such as used by cell phones are non-ionizing, so if they are dangerous to health, which is extremely doubtful, it is due to factors currently unknown to science.

With apologies to the late musician mentioned above, that is called "post hoc ergo propter hoc". Every time I wash my car it rains, therefore car-washing causes rain.

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile Phone Masts. Health hazard?
From: beeliner
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 01:30 PM

The rule of thumb is, if the radiation is IONIZING - that is, if it knocks electrons out of their orbits, then it is very dangerous to health indeed. X-rays and gamma rays fall into this category.

Radio frequency waves such as used by cell phones are non-ionizing, so if they are dangerous to health, which is extremely doubtful, it is due to factors currently unknown to science.

With apologies to the late musician mentioned above, that is called "post hoc ergo propter hoc". Every time I wash my car it rains, therefore car-washing causes rain.

---

The preceeding post was by me.

I guess my cookie expired.

Better it than me.

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile Phone Masts. Health hazard?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 01:56 PM

Yeah, but how do you tell if it's IONIZING? Wait until it kills you, and then you know it's ionizing?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile Phone Masts. Health hazard?
From: beeliner
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 02:50 PM

In the case of radium, that was pretty much what happened.

The Curies both suffered from radiation poisoning, as did workers who used it commercially, such as in watch faces, before it was known to be dangerous.

Nowadays it's pretty well known which sorts of radiation are harmful, and it's mostly related to frequency/wave length and the amount of energy per quantum, which is easily measured.

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile Phone Masts. Health hazard?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 03:12 PM

Friend of mine told me her neighbourhood association had one blocked not because of potential health risk (it was to be erected near a primary school) but because the neighbourhood had some designation as one of the prettiest streets in the county or maybe even east England.

That was the thing that made the council reject the planning application from the telecom company. So if you and your neighbours feel the mast will be an eyesore in an otherwise lovely setting, you may be able to get something together for blocking it on that basis.

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile Phone Masts. Health hazard?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 03:39 PM

beeliner, I suggest you subject your carwashing/causing rain theory to rigorous testing in order to find out if it holds any water.

Wash your car every day for the next 300 days. Keep a record of the media's weather predictions over the same period, and see how the results line up. If it rains for 300 days straight, you will be vindicated! ;-) I also suggest that you start building an ark at that point...or better yet, just STOP washing your car!

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile Phone Masts. Health hazard?
From: beeliner
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 04:29 PM

"beeliner, I suggest you subject your carwashing/causing rain theory to rigorous testing in order to find out if it holds any water."

Then how about this one: Every time I open my kitchen drawer, the church key is gone and I have to go buy a new one.

Every time I open my closet door there are more coat hangers there than before.

Church keys are the embryos of coat hangers.

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile Phone Masts. Health hazard?
From: beeliner
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 04:51 PM

"So if you and your neighbours feel the mast will be an eyesore in an otherwise lovely setting, you may be able to get something together for blocking it on that basis."

The nicest looking one I've seen so far is right in the middle of downtown Bloomington, Illinois.

Sort of a cross between Paris's Eyefull Tower and Seattle's Space Noodle, it's become a real landmark, and the Bloomingtonians seem to like it.

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile Phone Masts. Health hazard?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 05:59 PM

Cell phones work on microwaves which are non ionoising.
You would not have expected any effect other than heating.
They have not been around long enough for long term effects to show up, but researchers have found unexpectedly high correlations, mainly for brain cancers.
As has been said, the mechanism by which this could be caused is not clear, and the biggest risk will be from the handset not the mast.
UK government advises that children do not use them (thinner skull, developing brain).
The advice is universally ignored.

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile Phone Masts. Health hazard?
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 06:17 PM

beeliner, as usual LH is shortsighted. :) Instead of washing your car every day, go into business for profit. In the course of discovery, the cars of your whole neighborhood will be sparkling. And after the 300 days you can come back and give us the definitive answer as to whether car washing causes rain.

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile Phone Masts. Health hazard?
From: beeliner
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 06:25 PM

"Cell phones work on microwaves which are non ionoising."

What means, I guess, that they neither ionize nor make noise.

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile Phone Masts. Health hazard?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 06:41 PM

Waves below ultra violet are non ionoising.
Sound is on a different spectrum.

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile Phone Masts. Health hazard?
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 07:39 PM

Uh Joe? Why the hell are you climbing the tower? Just what kind of "volunteering" are you doing there?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile Phone Masts. Health hazard?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 11:48 PM

Keith, trust me if the sound is loud enough, it can seem like it is "ionising radiation" .... at least it can be 'polarising' to the community :-P

A friend's mother in the 70's worked in a 'petrol station cafe' - she was getting headaches. I discovered the 'serving area' was a couple of feet in front of the microwave ovens (several big 'commercial' 70's ones), and they were at head height. I informed her of the real scientific facts, she had the seals cleaned and took care to not stand close to them - her headaches (and the other staff) stopped.

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile Phone Masts. Health hazard?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 03:30 PM

Electromagnetic radiation obeys the Inverse Square Law. That is, the power of the signal decreases with the square of the distance from the transmitter.

Your mobile phone has a typical maximum output power of 2 watts, and is about three inches from your brain. A transmitting mast has an output power of less than 100W and is typically at least 50 feet away even if your house is right next to it. Do the sums: 50 feet is 200 times the distance between you and your phone. 200 squared is 40000. So the radiation you get from the mast is about 1/400th of the radiation from your phone, or 1/200th of a watt.

A similar calculation shows you get as much radiation from another person using their phone about 7 feet away from you if it is on maximum power. So if there is any detrimental effect from the radiation, it probably results from your own and other peoples' phones, not from the base transmitter.

Furthermore, to save power, the mobile phone turns down the transmission in areas with a strong signal. So against expectation and perhaps prejudice, you are likely to be safer from any possible effects if you live close to a transmitting mast.

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile Phone Masts. Health hazard?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 02:53 AM

"Electromagnetic radiation obeys the Inverse Square Law."

Sound supposedly does too, unless

1) The source is close to a surface, when you get reflections which tend to enhance the apparent volume of the source (echoes too!)

2) the frequency is low - a couple of hundred hertz or lower eg 'Bass', when it can actually seem to travel 'through' or 'along' the ground surface and seem to be enhanced for much further distance.

Sadly 'Scientific Facts' are often merely 'Rules' which do have 'exceptions' - Rules are for blind obedience by Fools and guidance for the Wise... :-)

EMR will also behave this way (reflections and transconductance and resonance), which is why things like TV etc aerials work. But whether electric power or copper telephone lines will enhance actual apparent power of signals like mobile phones is beyond me to definitively ponder on.

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile Phone Masts. Health hazard?
From: open mike
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 03:32 AM

does mast = antennae?

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile Phone Masts. Health hazard?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 03:47 AM

Antennae is the plural of antenna....

Mast is the singular of masts..

so logically the answer is no.... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile Phone Masts. Health hazard?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 05:47 AM

The antenna sits atop a mast.

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile Phone Masts. Health hazard?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 05:55 PM

You're correct Keith, but the two terms are often used interchangeably by laypeople - the mast is large and obvious .... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile Phone Masts. Health hazard?
From: open mike
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 03:27 AM

i didn't red the thread...i was picturing the"mast" as the object protruding from the cell phone..if it has an antenna on it.
(i guess not many have this feature any more....)

i guess you are talking about cell towers...the structure that
projects up into the sky.

here is a compnay that camoflages towers...
http://www.utilitycamo.com/sites.html
to look like trees, cactus, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile Phone Masts. Health hazard?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 03:41 PM

Yes, Foole, EM waves do indeed reflect. The reflected waves are as likely to interfere destructively as constructively, leading to dead spots in phone coverage. But even if they interfere constructively, they are unlikely to lead to a several- hundredfold increase in signal power, to a level that is comparable with the handset. That would need something to focus the signal, which is quite difficult to do and wouldn't happen by accident.

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile Phone Masts. Health hazard?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 11:14 PM

Paul, I agree, but also a longer period of lower level exposure is not necessarily safer than a shorter period of higher level exposure.

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile Phone Masts. Health hazard?
From: beeliner
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 11:30 PM

The point remains, EMR begins to ionize near the upper end of the ultraviolet range, microwaves used in cell phones are nearly a MILLION times longer than that, with the lower UV frequencies, the entire visible spectum, and the infrared inbetween, so if they are harmful, by what mechanism? And why are the intervening frequencies not harmful also?

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile Phone Masts. Health hazard?
From: Rowan
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 12:18 AM

Posts above have made the point, successfully I think, that EMR from the antennae on the masts hasn't enough strength to affect people by any method we currently know about, but the question remains about radiation from the antenna of the handset. The radiation is non-ionising and the various tests that have been done have all ruled out any "measurable" heating effect.

Given that several epidemiological studies have implicated EMR from mobile phones as causing a very few medical problems, the issue has boiled down the "How or by what method does the EMR cause the problem?"

The two known damaging effects of EMR are ionisation and heating and both have been ruled out at the organism level, the tissue level and the cellular level of analysis. The only level of analysis left is at the subcellular level and, as far as I know, nobody has worked out how to do analyses of the effects of EMR at this level that stand up to scientific scrutiny.

Hence the advice that Keith has passed on. But I've just put beeliner's question in a slightly more formal way, to, hopefully, pinpoint where the studies are likely to go in future.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile Phone Masts. Health hazard?
From: gnu
Date: 17 May 10 - 02:52 PM

Saw this study report today.

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile Phone Masts. Health hazard?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 May 10 - 02:56 PM

150 YARDS from themobile phone mast is the most dangerous position for radiation.
some other facts,never make mobile phone calls wearing glasses,never make a mobile phone call in a car,if you make one inside a house,make sure the phone is between your head and a window.

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile Phone Masts. Health hazard?
From: Rowan
Date: 17 May 10 - 06:50 PM

Dick, it would be helpful if you cited evidence and/or sources for such assertions; there are, already, more than enough myths and rumours swimming around in the pool.

I'm not contradicting your assertions, although they don't (yet) fit any of the problematic mechanisms I know about, but I like to know where such statements originate so I can assure myself of their relative worth by checking.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile Phone Masts. Health hazard?
From: Donuel
Date: 17 May 10 - 09:53 PM

microwave will heat but not ionize atoms. Next to your head it will disrupt neuronal function as temperatures reach fever temperatures and numerous studies links a previously rare type of brain cancer to cell phone use. The rate of this rare cancer is on the rise due to unkown causes.

Airport X ray machines could just as easily use radio waves but someone decided that ionizing passengers is an acceptable risk since one could get 60 times more cosmic radiation by flying at 300,000 feet for 5 hours.

Living nest to Nuclear power plants are also completely safe. All the instances of increased rates of childhood leukemia within 10 miles of nuke plants is puerely anecdotal and is most often obtained by the mothers of the diseased children and not dertified neuclear plant scientists.

Driving while texting is also a safe endeavor. Only the sudden stopping against the grill of a Kenworth truck grill is dangerous.

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile Phone Masts. Health hazard?
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 18 May 10 - 07:04 AM

This isn't really helping us much!

Subject: RE: BS: Mobile Phone Masts. Health hazard?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 May 10 - 09:23 AM

The answer of course is to wear tracksuit bottoms, trainers and have a shaved head - with optional tattoo on that part masquarading as a neck - full protection!!!!!!!!