playing 1930s country guitar style

Subject: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 08:08 PM

Well, after about a 20-year hiatus, I'm back to playing guitar. My dearie has facilitated the acquisition of an OM type from John S. Kinnard.

I got my start on guitar on an old Stella that was in the family, then for my 16th birthday got a Yamaha classical, which I mostly fingerpicked.

About 20 years ago, I took up clawhammer banjo, and neglected the guitar in the meantime. astro wanted to get me back to the guitar and thought that if I had a new one, I'd feel obligated to play it... I guess he's right.

I've been trying to figure out what kind of music I'd want a guitar for and now that I'm starting to noodle about on it, what comes out is sort of an old 1930's country sort of thing - Woody Guthrie, Maybelle Carter, "Goodbye Old Paint", etc.: strummy, with a little bit of melody in the bass or middle strings, or some simple bass runs. Definitely song accompaniment, not solo instrumentals. Nothing particularly fast, either,

I didn't use picks on my classical guitar (I'm no Willie Nelson ;-) I find I'm inclined to use a flat pick on steel strings: the downpicking feels like what I do on banjo. When I put on a thumbpick, I get confused, though I know that's what some folks who I like the sound of use.

(This guitar would do fine for fingerpicking, too, so that may come later, also string band accompaniment strumming, if I can get the speed up...)

Anybody else into making that kind of sound (the Guthrie, Carter one)? How do you go at it?

Any songs or players or albums you'd recommend of that era or flavor?

Any other thoughts or encouragements?

Muchas gracias in advance --

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 08:22 PM

And as I posted on Facebook today: [I was] Listening to Woody Guthrie's "Dust Bowl Ballads" and thinking that my new mission is to be as good an "indifferent" guitar player as he was. (That adjective from something I read yesterday.)

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 08:40 PM

Hi Becky!

The basic Maybelle Scratch is with thumb and first finger. Can you say BOOM-chukka-BOOM? Okay, now make your thumb the "BOOM" and your finger(s) the "chukka" with the down strum on the chuk and then upstroke on the ka....Repeat. After awhile you can add in the bass lines or melody. I think you can find some decent examples on YouTube.


Spaw

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Leadfingers
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 08:47 PM

DONT COPY ! Do your own thing , work out your own style and let it happen ! Good Luck and HAVE FUN !

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 08:50 PM

Ain't all that different than what the blues players were doing and what I still play today...

B~

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 09:05 PM

Thanks, Spaw. There is one bit of good video from the Johnny Cash show, and a lot of questionable other stuff with the "Carter Scratch" label on it...

I may have to work on the thumb pick thing. I find my clawhammer brain keeps slipping in gear when I do the finger scratch part I want to hit the low string like a banjo's 5th string... it doesn't quite work right. But, a bit of practice might help!

~ B in LB

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 09:07 PM

And while I was contemplating that scratching, a couple of other voices are heard!

Leadfingers, I'm not too worried about slavishly copying, just exploring the possibilities at this point, and seeking inspiration.

Bobert, got any players I should listen to & look at?

Thanks, folks.

~ B in LB

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Cool Beans
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 09:13 PM

What Spaw said also applies to flatpicking, which is how I usually play that kind of music. (I don't liek thumbpicks.) A strong downstroke (BOOM), then a lighter down-up (Chukka). Not on every note, though. with practice, you'll get the feel of when to Chukka.

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: olddude
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 09:24 PM

i use finger picks only on a banjo, for what you want to do i flat pick like cool beans suggested. normally i just finger pick bare handed. you may want to drag our some art thieme songs also he used fingerpicks . whatever you are most comfortable with. they all work

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 09:29 PM

ALso what Cool said! IF you want to see a video, I suggest you watch and listen to Emmylou, Linda, and Dolly doing The Sweetest Gift with Emmyloy on guitar. You can hear it exactly with some easily added embellishments and watch on a couple of excellent side views. Though her hand looks closed as if on a flat pick, you can see its not. This is also a notable clip here because the "Gibson Girl" is playing a Martin.

The second song, Bury Me Beneath the Willow, has Dolly on guitar and again with an embellished Carter Scratch. Dolly is a much better picker than most know and how she does it with those damn nails is sorta' amazing.

The camera gives you several good pictures on each song and about half of learning this strum is in the listening.


Spaw

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 09:30 PM

BTW....I use this a lot and play with a thumbpick but no fingerpicks.

Spaw

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 10:46 PM

Spaw - Gosh they sure look cute (natural!!) in that one, before the 1980s hit their hair and costumes. Dolly is amazing with her nails - no picks needed, but how does she get anything with her left hand??

[I've just paid Smithsonian-Folkways $0.99 for two tracks from Pete Seeger's "Folksinger's Guitar Guide". Am trying to figure out if the "church lick" and "Carter scratch" are one and the same, or if the term "church lick" ever existed independently...]

I do have some idea about strumming. I used to strum the nylon-string guitar with the backs of my fingernails (down on the index and middle, up on the thumb). For a flatpick, I've got to learn to hold on to it... and I find if I hold it close to the point, I don't have too much trouble finding individual strings if I want to.

Overall, I'm think I'm a better player now, having played the banjo this long, than I was when I left off. I have a lot more skill in my left hand than I did.

Need a lot of work on the callouses, though. And it sure takes a lot more to hammer on or especially to pull off on guitar strings than on banjo strings!

~ B in T

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 08:35 AM

"Anybody else into making that kind of sound (the Guthrie, Carter one)? How do you go at it?"

Some years ago, I found that I wasn't getting any better just pattern-picking, so I worked on playing chord melodies. Then, I found it was possible to play melodies and patterns, except that I could vary the patterns now instead of being locked into them. For practicing, I recommend concentrating on the melodies and finding positions for the chords that will get you the melody note and not worrying too much about the accompaniment at first. It will come.

This will get you to play all over the fretboard and you'll learn the individual notes of the chord positions instead of just that one position is "G", another is "Em", etc. You'll also be able to relate melodies to the chords and know what's possible with one voicing or another.

A nice thing about the bass notes of the guitar is that the fifth is on the next-lower string on the same fret (where there is a next-lower string, of course). This makes alternating between the fifth and the tonic very easy, which is nice, because this is the basis of most accompaniments. With practice, it can be varied.

Lately, I've been "thinning out" my style, playing less rather than more. It's nice to have the ability to play more, but less usually sounds better and it's easier on the hands.

I usually play with my bare fingers, but then I only have a classical guitar. I also keep my fingernails very short. I sometimes play with a flatpick and sometimes with a thumb pick and fingerpicks (metal) just for practice. In my opinion, the main thing about picks is: It doesn't matter. Use whatever you feel comfortable with. Each technique has its advantages and disadvantages.

I like the flatpick for single-line (or mostly single-line) playing. Otherwise, I prefer fingerpicking.

This sort of style seems to demand fairly simple chord changes with long periods of staying on one chord. If you use fancier chords, it starts to sound like Western Swing --- also good, but different. The simpler chord changes make it possible to really "stretch out" and play extended patterns. I recommend just experimenting with picking the strings in different orders, using different rhythms, etc. I didn't find that learning patterns out of a book helped me very much.

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 08:42 AM

I personally love the simplicity of Jimmie Rodgers's pick style, and the playing of Alton Delmore. Plenty of listening there - box sets of their complete recordings are available for a very good price.

Jimmie Rodgers's "Blue Yodel # 1(T for Texas)" is a classic example of his style. :-)

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: HarleySpirit
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 08:43 AM

Hi Becky,

I think you would be a great candidate for this "natural fingerpicking" style

Along with that, check out my Alternate Tunings Chord Charts link:
http://users.eastlink.ca/~harleyspi/tunings.html

Have Fun!
Harley

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 09:27 AM

if you tune your guitar dgdgbd[spanish tuning],youcan play tunes like wildwood flower and carter family songs plus five string banjo tunes using thumb for melody and brushing down with index and playing up with index,to get bum ditty rhythm of the banjo but using top string to replaceshort banjo g string,this is quite similiar to a 5 string banjo style known as thumb melody lead.not quite the same as harley but not disssimiliar.
this is also agreat tuning for playing melody picking with alternating basses[piedmont style guitar.
with this tuning if you replace the 5[a] string with an octave 12 string guitar string[3 gstring]youcan also play banjo tunes and do the bum dittyor clawhammer old timey etc as if you were using the high short g banjo string,so if you are used to playing 5string banjo you can do it on a guitar.

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 11:17 AM

One thing about strumming is that it can become a dead-end. It doesn't have to, but I think it often does. If you're going to strum, one thing you might want to practice is hitting only some of the strings. I mean particular ones, like the top four or 5, 4, and 3. I remember finding this difficult, but now it's no problem for me at all. I usually pull multiple strings rather than strum, but you can't do this with a flatpick. The face of your guitar will thank you for the improved pick control.

Even if you only want to accompany, I think it would be a good idea to practice playing the melody, especially by ear. It seems like playing melodies on the guitar should be easy, but it isn't. At least, I still have trouble playing them accurately, i.e., without making mistakes, even though I practice a lot. I should have started learning to do this sooner.

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 12:08 PM

heris an example of pretypolly iam in dgddgcd[sawmill banjo tuning]iam playing carter style guitar,but as wel,as playing melody i
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAuc6rFXb1E
I also play single line harmony,iam using the same tuning for polly vaughan but playing in a different fingerpickingstyle

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 12:10 PM

capo onthe second fret so i am in A

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Cool Beans
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 12:34 PM

It's been a long time since I learned to play from Pete Seeger's wonderful "Folksinger's
Guitar Guide" but I believe the church lick is indeed the same as the Carter scratch. I remember combining it with hammering on and practicing for hours.

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 12:51 PM

I usually pull multiple strings rather than strum, but you can't do this with a flatpick.

Don't forget "hybrid" picking - pick and fingers. You get the best of both worlds - flatpicking and fingerpicking combined. :-)

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 01:36 PM

Even though the original "Carter Family" strum was achieved with thumbpick and fingers, I would advise using a plectrum. For me, Norman Blake carried that style to its highest point. Listen to the following track and marvel at how full a sound Norman gets with just a plectrum.

Norman Blake - flatpicking King.

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 01:43 PM

the church licvk is the carter scratch,there is avery good dvd homespumn tapes mike seeger with jeanette carter with booklet,
the thing is I bet Maybelle would have used more open tunings if she was starting today,from spanish tuning dgdgbd,it is so easy to go to other banjo tunings like sawmill and double c which is effectively [orkney tuning]cgcgcd,from spanish you can also go easily to dgdgbflat d,and it is much easier than standard,although i like to play carter stuff in standard too.
desert dancer is a banjo player,so she must be used to these tunings.
with a flatpick,you can strum two adjacent strings like fiddle double stop,plus you can do the equivalent of banjo drop thumbing on an up pick after the melody,on the string imediately above or below it
if you are in standard tuning this works easily in the key of c,on leaving of liverpool and wild wood flower.
of course you can finger pick doing banjo drop thumbing with two adjacent fingers,index middle or middle ring ,on an up

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 01:44 PM

Ah - Norman Blake. Here's the Master in action on video:

Salty

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 02:12 PM

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Will Fly - PM
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 12:51 PM

'Don't forget "hybrid" picking - pick and fingers. You get the best of both worlds - flatpicking and fingerpicking combined. :-)'

True. I've tried this a few times, but it doesn't seem to suit me. I'm sure it's a good technique for those who like it. I like to have the support of the middle finger on the pick. I could never warm up to lightweight picks, either. I've never understood how anyone could play with picks that bend, but I suppose that's what makes ballgames.

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 02:47 PM

It sounds like Jimmie Rodgers was all downstroke and (almost) no upstroke. Sure wish I could yodel...

And Norman Blake - oh, yeah! as long as he's singing, and not picking a fiddle tune! Have to watch some more... and what Nancy's doing, too.

In the throwback category, Ramblin' Jack Elliott, anyone?

Thanks for all the thoughts and links, folks.

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 02:57 PM

yodellings not to difficult,just practise,mind you I have always found singing easy,I like to yodel when i am driving., it is good if you are in a glider too.

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 03:00 PM

he is ok ,but go and listen to doc watson.

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 03:05 PM

I think hang gliding would get me yodeling... I've always thought the nice thing about regular gliding would be the quiet...

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 03:28 PM

Doc's wonderful; way out of my league.

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 04:22 PM

yes the quiet is great ,but now and again youhave to yodel toshow appreciation of life

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: pdq
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 04:37 PM

Bill Clifton uses a flatpick with his classic Martin to get a sorta "loopy" Carter-based sound.

Oddly, his records are more common in England than the U.S. He did a novelty number called "Beatle Crazy" while living and working in Britain.

Anyone who wants to here a near-perfect folk backup should get "Step By Step" by Lesley Riddle. It was recorded over about 15 years by Mike Seeger, but sound very coherent. Riddle was a friend of the Carters.

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 12:40 AM

And I'm getting more input here from the UK than the US... what does it mean?

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 04:41 AM

It means, Becky, that a number of us Brits on the Mudcat Forum have a deep and abiding love for early American country music. I've listened to and played the music of Doc Watson, the Carter Family, Jimmie Rodgers, the Delmore Brothers et al for many, many years, and I'm very fond of it. (I'm also a guitarist, as are others here, which is why we can contribute to your question). Perhaps we don't take such music for granted. :-)

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 07:00 AM

Riddle taught Maybelle Carter how to play,[I believe]in return he was given a new wooden leg

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Melissa
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 11:06 AM

I'm in the US and would be glad to post to this thread..except I'm not sure that I have anything useful to say. It sounds like you're working toward a style similar to what I do.

I use a very small, thin pick. To keep it from making that annoying buzzy/clicky sound, I hold it very near the end so barely any pick is sticking out..close enough to the end that my fingers end up with stringdirt patches on them when I play.
Holding the pick like most folks seem to doesn't give me as much control over where I hit. A regular size pick also doesn't give me as much control because it's harder for me to tell where the point is when my hand is full of plastic.

If you've got your chords and a good ear, you'll probably be able to pick it up fairly easily.

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 11:25 AM

maybelle used a thumb pick and a fingerpick on her index i think

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 11:36 AM

Hi, Melissa, that's the way I've been inclined to hold a pick as well, whatever size or thickness it is.

Lesley Riddle's not flatpicking, and I hear very little strumming. Nice, though...

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 11:46 AM

lesley riidle used to fingerpick carter style thumbplaying melody index brushing up and sometimes doing bum ditty,but on the top 1 string,he also taught maybelle two finger piedmiont[cannonball blues] style finger picking with alternating bass on every beat

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Melissa
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 11:53 AM

DD,
Do you like to pretend that the stringdirt on your pick hand are scorch marks?

I never thought of it before, but now I think I'm going to use the dirty smears to show people just how hot my playing is!

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 04:36 PM

Melissa, I'll keep that one in mind! (works for frailing banjo, too!)

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 05:40 PM

I long since outgrew this but, every once in a while, I catch a bit of an old Gene Autry or Roy Rogers movie from the thirties and early forties on one of the cable channels. Inevitably, there would be two or three (or more) seques into musical interludes with players like "Sons of the Pioneers" or "Riders of the Purple Sage" to name two examples. The strumming technique on these old Hollywood "cowboy" songs is probably fairly close to what you're looking for. "Riders in the Sky" still does a lot of that kind of music.

As an aside, years ago, we referred to the old "boom-chukka-boom" sound (orchestrally) as the "businessman's bounce."

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 06:52 PM

GSS, regarding Lesley Riddle, it's a big step to go from
"he also taught maybelle two finger piedmiont[cannonball blues] style finger picking with alternating bass on every beat"
to
   "Riddle taught Maybelle Carter how to play,[I believe]in return he was given a new wooden leg "

Where did that latter come from?? (Especially since she was already playing before they met...)

Here's a good link for Lesley Riddle.

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 07:14 PM

HE said Maybelle just listened and added what she wanted because as he put it, "She was that good."

I think a lot of folk players over the years have owed much to Maybelle and as far as the most popular style of fingerpicking goes, they owe Mississippi John.

Spaw

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: pdq
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 07:36 PM

Here is another under-appreciated folk picker that we can all learn from:

                                                                            John Jackson

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: foggers
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 07:46 PM

Hi - not got much to add to the find mix already going on in this thread; just chiming in agreement!

I started out as a finger style guitar player on a classical guitar. At 18 I got my first steel strung guitar and tried a plectrum but just could not get the hang of it, so I tried a thumb pick and liked the extra oomph it gave my finger picking style. I was very influenced by the classic Maybelle Carter alternating thumb pick and finger brushing when I started to sing some gospel and early country. Lots of the names mentioned here have been players I have aspired to - MIssissipi John, Maybelle, Leabelly, Emylou Harris,

Then just 4 years ago I got a 5 string banjo and after a bit of three finger picking I also branched out and got the hang of clawhammer. Then came the Appalachian dulcimer and I have had to grapple wiith a plectrum in my right hand after all, in order to get to grips with noter and drone style playing.

What fascinates me is that I think this has made me more versatile player and musician all round, when I used to just think of meself as a one-trick pony.

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 06:40 AM

desert dancer,
I have read a lot about the carter family, lesley riddle ,listened to jeannette carter talking to mike seeger ,somewhere in all that reading,it was stated more than once and by different people that Riddle helped to develop her style gave her guitar lessons and in return AP CARTER,bought him a new wooden leg ,if you dont believe me go and do some research.

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Will Fly
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 08:04 AM

I've always loved John Hurt's guitar style, and Doc Waton's - but no-one seems to mention Etta Baker. Her "One Dime Blues" is a beautiful piece of guitar work - well worth a listen.

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 09:08 AM

yes there are good you tube videos of her,mance lipscomb[texan songster ]is worth checking out too,all this illustrates how close balck and white music were back in those days,jimmie rodgers used earl hines and louis armstrong on recordings

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 09:58 AM

Lesley Riddle

http://www.tvgnc.org/index.php?option=com_...e&id=4&Itemid=2

Much of the inspiration and development of country music has been attributed by the genre's founders to the African-American musicians of the South. Jimmie Rodgers and his youthful association with black railroad section gangs; Hank Williams and the street singer, Rufus "Tee-Tot" Payne; Bill Monroe, as well as Merle Travis learning from Arnold Shultz. So it goes with the Carter Family and Lesley Riddle of Burnsville, NC.

Lesley was born in 1905 in the western part of Yancey County but spent the years between 1913 and 1943 in a series of moves between there and Kingsport, TN. It was while in Kingsport in 1927 that he encountered A.P. Carter at a favorite hang out of black musicians. Lesley, who had learned guitar from his uncle, played some songs for Carter. This began a five to seven year friendship and musical partnership with The First Family of Country Music.

A.P. took Lesley home with him to Mace's Springs, VA on that occasion and many more thereafter. There, Sara, Maybelle and A.P. learned many of the old gospel, blues and railroad tunes from Lesley's repertoire. Maybelle also watched the young black man's slide and finger picking guitar technique and adapted much of it to her style---a style that countless country pickers have copied.

The Carters were in constant need of new material for Victor recording sessions. Thus, A.P. and Lesley would travel for two and three weeks at a time to the remote hollows and the few black sections of the southern Appalachians, where Carter would write down the lyrics and Riddle would play along and memorize the melody. After returning to the Springs, the Carters and Lesley would re-work the tunes into versions acceptable for the studio.

The Carters continued to record after Sara and A.P. divorced in 1933 but their move to Del Rio, TX to perform on the XERA radio station ended Lesley's association with them.

The Lesley Riddle Story

http://www.tvgnc.org/index.php?option=com_...atid=6&Itemid=3

Lesley Riddle is one of the unheralded contributors to the formation of early commercial country music.

Lesley Riddle was born June 13, 1905 in the Silvers Gap community of western Yancey County, NC. Before he entered his teens, his parents, Ed and Hattie, separated and Hattie took the three children and moved to Kingsport, Tennessee. The CCC Railroad had just finished construction from near Burnsville to Johnson City, which made travel much easier. Easier as in a train ride of six hours as opposed to a horseback trip of three days. The Riddle family would move back and forth between Burnsville and Kingsport several times over the next twenty years.

When he was in his mid-teens Lesley had a horrific accident on a visit to the Clinchfield Cement plant to see a friend, in which his right foot slipped into an auger in the floor. The giant screw chewed his leg off up to the knee. By all rights, he should have died, if not from shock then infection. He lived and the state of North Carolina provided him some rehabilitation and education at a facility in Durham.

This handicap allowed Lesley a lot of down time and he became interested in the guitar. His mother's brother, Ed Martin, played guitar and knew dozens of blues and gospel numbers. Ed taught Lesley some guitar techniques and introduced him to other musicians around Kingsport.
Lesley was barely healed from his leg amputation when he and Uncle Ed were arguing over a shotgun. The gun disch arged while Lesley's right hand gripped the end of the barrel. He lost the middle and ring fingers of his hand. Later, Lesley had to adjust his picking techniques to use only his thumb, index and little fingers.

John Henry Lyon's front porch was a favorite hang out for East Tennessee musicians and others traveling through the area. Blind Lemon Jefferson, Sticks and Brownie McGhee, Steve Tartar and others frequented the porch. On a Sunday morning in late 1927, A.P. Carter paid a visit to the porch looking for songs for the Carter Family's second recording session with Ralph Peer of Victor Records. As Lesley described it, John Henry passed a guitar to Lesley and told him to "play Mr. Carter a piece. I played him a couple of pieces and Mr. Carter wanted me to go home with him right then and there."

This began a musical partnership that lasted over five years and a friendship that endured for half a century. Lesley would spend as much as two weeks at a time with A.P. and Sara Carter in their home in Mace's Springs, Virginia. Just down the road lived Maybelle and Ezra Carter. As Lesley would later describe it to Mike Seeger, "I played somewhere all the time. Sometimes, down at Ecks (Ezra), most times at Mr. Carter's, just playing and singing, that's all we would do."
What the Carters got from these jam sessions were Lesley's repertoire of blues and gospel songs; songs he had learned from Steve, Blind Lemon, Brownie and John Henry and others he had had heard his mother and Ed Martin sing. Lesley told Seeger that the Carters rarely ever played for him.

Forty years later, when Seeger was recording Lesley, he could see and hear the similarities between Lesley's picking style and that of Maybelle Carter so he asked him if he ever gave her lessons. Lesley replied, "No, I didn't have to. She would just watch and learn. She was that good." Both Lesley and Maybelle used a pocketknife for their slide guitar work.

The Carter Family quickly became, along with Jimmie Rodgers, the top two recording artists of the Victor Company and Peer pushed them constantly to get new songs for recording sessions. None of the Carter's was a prolific songwriter and they had exhausted the ones their neighbors knew, so it fell to A.P. and Lesley to hit the road in search of new material. The unlikely pair, a gangly, palsied near forty year old white man and a black double handicapped handsome twenty something, made for a strange sight as they would knock on doors at head of the hollow cabins as well as hovels in the few black sections of the southern Appalachians. If the residents had some old songs, A.P. would write down the lyrics and Lesley would strum along and memorize the melody. These excursions would sometimes last three weeks with A.P. having to find accommodations, usually in someone's home, where both a black and white guy were welcome. Most times they slept in separate dwellings. Finding a meal presented the same problem with A.P. dining at the family table and Lesley eating in the kitchen.

A.P. and Lesley would return to the Spring's and, along with Sara and Maybelle, rework the tunes into something acceptable to Peer. We can be sure that most of the tunes with A.P. getting the credit as the writer came from these song-gathering trips. Music historians have puzzled for years over which songs the Carters got from Lesley.

From Barry O'Connell: Maybelle Carter always credited Lesley as the source for "The Cannonball," especially for her guitar runs, the influence of which is everywhere in subsequent country music. We can say with reasonable certainty that Lesley taught the Carters: "The Cannonball," "Lonesome For You," "If You See My Savior," "One Kind Favor," "The Storms Are On The Ocean," "Out On The Ocean A-Sailing," "Working On A Building," "Let The Church Roll On," "Wouldn't Mind Dying," "On A Hill Lone And Gray," and "On Jordan's Stormy Banks."

In early 1933, Sara and A.P. separated, partly over his absences and his temper when he was home and her too-close friendship with A.P.'s cousin, Coy Bates. Sara abandoned her home and children and went to live with an aunt several miles away. The Carters continued as a recording and performing group for several more years but the divorce effectively ended Lesley's trips to Mace's Springs although Jeanette and Gladys, two of the Carter children, later vowed that Lesley kept them from starvation by teaching them how to make gravy and biscuits.

The Carters got a job playing over XERA in Del Rio, Texas and Lesley married Allie Rhea of Kingsport in 1937 and soon moved to Rochester, NY where Allie had family. Lesley played some with Son House but soon sold his guitar and quit music all together except for what he did in church. Lesley and Allie visited Kingsport and Burnsville infrequently from 1942 to 1978.

In the mid-60's, the Johnny Cash Show with Maybelle and her daughters, along with Mike Seeger and the New Lost City Ramblers, was playing a gig in Los Angeles. When Maybelle came off stage after her set, Mike asked her where she had learned "The Cannonball" and she answered "Esley Riddle of Kingsport, Tennessee." The next show was in Tucson, Arizona and Maybelle rode with Mike in his Studebaker and related the Esley Riddle story to him. ("Esley" was a name he picked up when one of Maybelle or Sara's small children could not pronounce his name. All present day Carters and many of his own relatives, call him by that name, even now.) Seeger set out to find this person, visiting Kingsport and inquiring of other musicians who performed at the folk festivals that were springing up all over the USA and Canada. Finally, at the Newport Folk Festival, Mike asked Brownie McGhee, whom Lesley had played mandolin with on a tour of the rough Kentucky coal camps when they were just in their teens, and Brownie replied, "Oh yeah, Rochester, one leg and eight fingers!"

In Rochester was where Mike found him and persuaded him to be interviewed and recorded in his living room and his shoeshine stand. Esley also accompanied the Ramblers and Seeger to some local clubs and music halls to play with them. He got Lesley into some of the more prestigious folk festivals of the time: Newport, Smithsonian and Mariposa. Mike returned to Rochester several times over the next fifteen years to visit Esley, sometimes to no avail when Esley would be out "socializing."

Allie died in 1976 and not long after, Esley, who had smoked since the age of five, found out he had lung cancer. He moved to Asheville and lived there with his brother, John Young, finally dying there in a rest home on July 13, 1979. He, Allie and his mother are buried in Horton Cemetery in Burnsville. Janette and Joe Carter spoke at his funeral.

Although Esley was as talented as his contemporaries, he never made a living at music. He subsisted as a shine boy, presser and school crossing guard. Fifteen years after Esley's death, Mike Seeger persuaded Rounder Records to release a CD of the music they had recorded in Rochester. The title track is the one song there is no debate about the authorship of, "Step By Step," which Esley was inspired to write after watching children walk across his intersection.
desert dancer:please note.
From Barry O'Connell: Maybelle Carter always credited Lesley as the source for "The Cannonball," especially for her guitar runs, the influence of which is everywhere in subsequent country music. We can say with reasonable certainty that Lesley taught the Carters: "The Cannonball," "Lonesome For You," "If You See My Savior," "One Kind Favor," "The Storms Are On The Ocean," "Out On The Ocean A-Sailing," "Working On A Building," "Let The Church Roll On," "Wouldn't Mind Dying," "On A Hill Lone And Gray," and "On Jordan's Stormy Banks."

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 10:03 AM

Lesley Riddle
[DesrtDancer please note]
taken from amazon .com
Country music may owe its very existence in part to a one-legged African-American guitar player named Lesley Riddle. Riddle was born on June 13, 1905, in Burnsville, NC. As a young man he worked in the local cement plant, where an unfortunate accident cost him his right leg at the knee. During his convalescence Riddle learned to play guitar, developing a unique picking technique and a biting slide style. A.P. Carter, patriarch of the Carter Family, met Riddle in Kingsport, TN, in 1928, learning "Cannonball" from him. Carter began using Riddle as a source for traditional material and arrangements, and he started to accompany A.P. on his song-collecting trips. Riddle essentially lived with the Carter Family off and on for several years at their home in Virginia, where he was occasionally called upon to teach Maybelle Carter a tricky guitar part or two. Legend has it that Sara Carter eventually presented Riddle with a brand new wooden leg as a sort of thank you.
I have tried to help you on ths thread with suggestions about how to play carter style guitar [not just in standard tuning,but in spanish tuning].

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 11:38 AM

Dick, thanks for that reference for the wooden leg "legend". (Steve Leggett, All Music Guide, as quoted on Amazon.com) I hadn't come on that; it was not in the recent book nor in the other main online sources on Riddle. It certainly is clear that Lesley Riddle was a big influence on Maybelle Carter's guitar playing.

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 12:14 PM

Geeziz.....What's the big point with the wooden leg thing? Did he string it up and play "One Kind Favor" on it or what? LOL.......The Legend of the Leg.............

Spaw

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 12:25 PM

Wait.....I see it now!   

GSS says at the end of his last post: "I have tried to help you on ths thread with suggestions about how to play carter style guitar [not just in standard tuning,but in spanish tuning]."

I guess that means no one else did or something. But what I can see it means now is that like Riddle, he's "teaching" Becky and wants a wooden leg in return! I'd check E-Bay first if I were you Becky........

Spaw

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 12:59 PM

I'll try again,

To Private Schweik,

I have no doubt at all that Leslie Riddle helped A.P Carter in his collecting and undoubtedly the Carters would have learned songs from him. However, in the pieces you posted above they state that A.P met Leslie Riddle in 1927 and 1928. As the Carters first recording sessions were in 1927 and Maybelle was already no slouch on the guitar I feel that Leslie's influence was more on the material that the group sang rather than on Maybelle's picking style.
I shall have to listen to Riddle's recordings again to see how close their styles were or were not.

Hoot.

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 01:21 PM

spaw, a wooden leg would be useful if ever the two of us met i could put in your mouth,or any other suitable orifice.

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Mar 10 - 01:22 PM

I completely agree Hoot......

Above in a previous post I noted that "HE said Maybelle just listened and added what she wanted because as he put it, "She was that good." ...........I'm sure he gave her some ideas and they swapped things as player to player, but its obvious that Riddle already respected her as a picker.

Equally, there is no doubt that he had a wealth of old songs which AP was glad to milk from him and also that Riddle was a family favorite of the whole family.

Spaw

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 11:17 AM

"The Cannonball" was one title which Maybelle says she got from Leslie so I listened to Maybelle's version and Leslie's recorded about 50 years apart. Leslie appears to be fingerpicking albeit a little hesitantly, quite probably because he was a bit rusty, whereas Maybelle seems to be playing her usual 'Carter Family Lick'. This in my mind tends to confirm that it was repertoire rather than playing style that the Carters obtained from Riddle.

Regarding the advice above "don't copy", I don't think this is particularly sound advice for someone learning to play. Once you understand how a particular player gets his sound ok then go off and do your own thing if that's what you want. If you are a pro musician then obviously being a carbon copy of an existing performer is pointless but I feel pretty sure that the majority of people using this thread play primarily for their own pleasure. I personally have had many years of pleasure attempting to emulate Doc Watson, Sam McGee,Maybelle Carter, E C Ball and others too numerous to mention. I always finish up "doing my own thing" because unfortunately I don't possess their skills.

Hoot

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 11:28 AM

I think cOpying is alright up to a point,as a starter,
THEN ,why not copy two or three styles and then hybridise them.
Hoot,
I have carter family transcriptions[ by mike seeger,both of them have her playing in a piedmont style two or three fingers,with alternating bass],one is a 1930 the other a 1936 recording,the dvd is called carter guitar styles.
I would trust Mike Seeger to have got it right,maybelle may have later played it differently[thats possible]but at least two recordings having her play in the style of Lesley Riddle.

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 11:34 AM

However her hawainnstlye and her flat picking style owenothing to Riddle

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 11:52 AM

according to Seeger
there were at least seven that she flatpicked, whos that knocking, bear creek blues,youare my flower carters blues let the church roll onblack jack davidramblin boycoal miners blue,suntitled instrumental [arhoolie411],jealous hearted me.she learned flat picking from her brother

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 12:41 PM

"I have carter family transcriptions[ by mike seeger,both of them have her playing in a piedmont style two or three fingers,with alternating bass],one is a 1930 the other a 1936 recording,the dvd is called carter guitar styles.
I would trust Mike Seeger to have got it right,maybelle may have later played it differently[thats possible]but at least two recordings having her play in the style of Lesley Riddle."

Geeziz......LMAO.........What non-existent point are you trying so desparately to prove?   Yeah, Maybelle played in other styles at times. So what? Is someone saying she turned to west coast jazz in her later life? Now THAT would be something to dispute.

I think Hoot's points are well taken and that the Carter's got a lot more from Riddle than anything he may have demonstrated to Maybelle. But does it really matter? Or are ytou trying to somehow prove that without Riddle Maybelle would have been a field hand?

LOL........GSS, I bet I know how you make money! I bet you crap diamonds! Right?   Yeah.....I know..........

Spaw

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 01:09 PM

Spaw.What are you trying to prove?
I am just passing on the information that Mike Seeger obtained,which I hope would be of interst to most people other than point scoring ass holes

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 04:05 PM

GSS,

May I suggest that you listen to Maybelle's few recordings made prior to 1928 and then to any made a little later. Can you detect any real difference in her style ?

Maybelle may have used fingerpicking and flat picking and played a bit of slide. BUT, what most people seem to recognise as the Carter lick is basically that described in the 3rd posting on this thread.

Hoot

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Melissa
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 02:07 AM

Here's one for you, DD.


Sally Let Your Bangs Hang Down
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYy905ikOyk&feature=related

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 01:16 PM

Ihave just been listening to guitar sstyles of the carter family dvd,on homespun tapes,why not buy it?
its the best way to learn.
jeanettecarter clearly states that lesley riddle taught maybelle guitar runs on cannonball and lonesome.
this dvd[imo] is the best way to learn the guitar style of maybelle carter

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 01:30 PM

Lots to think about and work on, and lots of resources to help. Thanks everyone for your input.

~ Becky, back in Tucson

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 03:29 PM

I haven't read all the above, but here's a link to a lesson on Carter style playing.

Carter Style Lesson

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 05:01 PM

Well Gee Whiz GSS.............LMAO.......Seems you just might have joined us in saying Maybelle got some tips from Riddle. Goodonya!!!Saying he "taught her" was a bit over the top wasn't it?

Spaw

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 05:44 PM

DD,
I strongly advise you to try spanish tuning dgdgbd,you can go through all your banjo tunes,playing thumb melody instead[of index melodyfinger]you can then take the ditty part of the bum ditty,and replace the ty part of the ditty,with an upward pluck of the ist string,that is the carter scratch,but if you have been playing banjo it is so much easier,the chord C is the same,the d7 is more or less the same,you just have to fret 5 string at Second fret.
I have just been trying little birdie this way its not difficult.
you can later on even also incorporate a bit of clawhammer banjo,index and drop thumb,you just switch melody to index finger in the mix[ifind this easier to do on an up pick] but you will probably have no problem doing it down.

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 28 Mar 10 - 06:14 PM

For the fun of it have a listen to Riley Puckett who was the platform that Git Tanner and the Skillet Lickers took off from .He was amazing . He was giutar and bass runs for the whole thing and has been a real inspiration to me ..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDWlN1Ik86o

All the best , Guy

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Angrybean
Date: 20 Feb 11 - 06:53 AM

Here's Walking Cane done country guitar style, flat pick not thumbpick. Not sure if it's 30's style.

Walking Cane

Hope yer like it.

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: brianbanjos
Date: 20 Feb 11 - 07:32 AM

Desert Dancer,

Like you I'm primarily a banjo picker but in the three finger style.I play country guitar in the Carter scratch style. Its a great style, it can be kept simple and still take you to a deep musical place. Yet if you have the time and interest there's scope for virtuoso playing like Norman Blake or Doc. Iplay out of either a c or g chord position depending on how the melody falls and the key I want to play in. At the heart of this are bass runs, boom chucka rythym, timing, hammer on and pull offs. It can get repetitive so the key is to bring in as much of the melody as possible. Depending on the song i'll use a flat pick or thumb and fingerpicks. For straight up country or old time I use the flat pick. One wonderful thing about this style is that its not a tremendous leap to country blues. For those songs (think Etta Baker) I use finger picks. One doesn't have to use finger picks. I do it so they don't feel like foreign objects when I pick up the banjo.

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 20 Feb 11 - 11:12 AM

An update from me, since this thread has been revived nearly a year later...

My number one impression from working on this for the past year is that after having started guitar as a non-flatpicking '70s-flavor folkie (in the actual '70s) how amazingly hard it is to play less: just BOOM-chuck BOOM-chuck (or comparable in waltz time). Getting the playing sparser (and cleaner, of course). Quitting being so strummy. I think that's the essence of the old-time sound. Certainly for fiddle tune accompaniment at speed, it's essential.

(It's also interesting to consider how diametrically opposed that style is from the contemporary Irish accompaniment, esp. DADGAD, guitar style, which is totally strummy. I have feet in both worlds, as a contra dancer/caller. I also find getting that much strumming up to speed a challenge. ;-)

The other is how ephemeral callouses can be, and how necessary they are. (This being a bad sign of the sporadic nature of my playing.)

Thanks for the link, Angrybean, and for reviving the thread.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Angrybean
Date: 20 Feb 11 - 11:28 AM

Hi Becky. I started playing this style and played boom-chick-ah as opposed to boom-chuck. So play the bass and then a down-up strum, but it gets very busy and too much sound. Although it's very simple style, it's nice to play and with some practise easier to start putting some small solo's in between verses. All the best. Ang.

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: olddude
Date: 20 Feb 11 - 11:43 AM

Becky
Our Will Fly has a bunch of great how to videos on youtube that may help you. Play on my friend
:-)
Dan

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 20 Feb 11 - 11:52 AM

I love Will's playing, Dan, and definitely should study his left hand and chord stuff.

~ B in T

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: olddude
Date: 20 Feb 11 - 12:10 PM

Becky
If you are interested in finger picking, Wayfaring Stranger sounds really hard but in fact it is very very easy... What I do is just bounce the thumb back and forth on the bass strings and then pull up on the highs with the other fingers ... very easy and this picking roll is pretty easy to master and then you can do all kinds of variations with it if you are interested in that form of playing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYb2gFsQur8

Love Dan

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Feb 11 - 04:15 PM

The other more subtle development was to occasionally reverse the thumb, so treble picks a quaver [halfbeat] then thumb picks a half beat, instead of thumb always picking on every beat.
i have found that playing the bump ditty on the 5 string banjo has helped me progress with this technique.

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: olddude
Date: 20 Feb 11 - 04:21 PM

Great suggestion GSS ... good one !!

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Angrybean
Date: 20 Feb 11 - 04:31 PM

I'v tried to do a cross picking version of Wildwood Flower..

Wildwood Flower

Hope yer like it :)

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: olddude
Date: 20 Feb 11 - 04:58 PM

Hey Bean
I like it !!

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Angrybean
Date: 20 Feb 11 - 05:04 PM

Thanks Dude. I need to soften it a little and get more fluid, but hit the right notes, almost. Cheers Bud !!