playing 1930s country guitar style

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 12:40 AM

And I'm getting more input here from the UK than the US... what does it mean?

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: pdq
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 04:37 PM

Bill Clifton uses a flatpick with his classic Martin to get a sorta "loopy" Carter-based sound.

Oddly, his records are more common in England than the U.S. He did a novelty number called "Beatle Crazy" while living and working in Britain.

Anyone who wants to here a near-perfect folk backup should get "Step By Step" by Lesley Riddle. It was recorded over about 15 years by Mike Seeger, but sound very coherent. Riddle was a friend of the Carters.

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 04:22 PM

yes the quiet is great ,but now and again youhave to yodel toshow appreciation of life

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 03:28 PM

Doc's wonderful; way out of my league.

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 03:05 PM

I think hang gliding would get me yodeling... I've always thought the nice thing about regular gliding would be the quiet...

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 03:00 PM

he is ok ,but go and listen to doc watson.

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 02:57 PM

yodellings not to difficult,just practise,mind you I have always found singing easy,I like to yodel when i am driving., it is good if you are in a glider too.

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 02:47 PM

It sounds like Jimmie Rodgers was all downstroke and (almost) no upstroke. Sure wish I could yodel...

And Norman Blake - oh, yeah! as long as he's singing, and not picking a fiddle tune! Have to watch some more... and what Nancy's doing, too.

In the throwback category, Ramblin' Jack Elliott, anyone?

Thanks for all the thoughts and links, folks.

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 02:12 PM

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Will Fly - PM
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 12:51 PM

'Don't forget "hybrid" picking - pick and fingers. You get the best of both worlds - flatpicking and fingerpicking combined. :-)'

True. I've tried this a few times, but it doesn't seem to suit me. I'm sure it's a good technique for those who like it. I like to have the support of the middle finger on the pick. I could never warm up to lightweight picks, either. I've never understood how anyone could play with picks that bend, but I suppose that's what makes ballgames.

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 01:44 PM

Ah - Norman Blake. Here's the Master in action on video:

Salty

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 01:43 PM

the church licvk is the carter scratch,there is avery good dvd homespumn tapes mike seeger with jeanette carter with booklet,
the thing is I bet Maybelle would have used more open tunings if she was starting today,from spanish tuning dgdgbd,it is so easy to go to other banjo tunings like sawmill and double c which is effectively [orkney tuning]cgcgcd,from spanish you can also go easily to dgdgbflat d,and it is much easier than standard,although i like to play carter stuff in standard too.
desert dancer is a banjo player,so she must be used to these tunings.
with a flatpick,you can strum two adjacent strings like fiddle double stop,plus you can do the equivalent of banjo drop thumbing on an up pick after the melody,on the string imediately above or below it
if you are in standard tuning this works easily in the key of c,on leaving of liverpool and wild wood flower.
of course you can finger pick doing banjo drop thumbing with two adjacent fingers,index middle or middle ring ,on an up

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 01:36 PM

Even though the original "Carter Family" strum was achieved with thumbpick and fingers, I would advise using a plectrum. For me, Norman Blake carried that style to its highest point. Listen to the following track and marvel at how full a sound Norman gets with just a plectrum.

Norman Blake - flatpicking King.

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 12:51 PM

I usually pull multiple strings rather than strum, but you can't do this with a flatpick.

Don't forget "hybrid" picking - pick and fingers. You get the best of both worlds - flatpicking and fingerpicking combined. :-)

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Cool Beans
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 12:34 PM

It's been a long time since I learned to play from Pete Seeger's wonderful "Folksinger's
Guitar Guide" but I believe the church lick is indeed the same as the Carter scratch. I remember combining it with hammering on and practicing for hours.

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 12:10 PM

capo onthe second fret so i am in A

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 12:08 PM

heris an example of pretypolly iam in dgddgcd[sawmill banjo tuning]iam playing carter style guitar,but as wel,as playing melody i
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAuc6rFXb1E
I also play single line harmony,iam using the same tuning for polly vaughan but playing in a different fingerpickingstyle

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 11:17 AM

One thing about strumming is that it can become a dead-end. It doesn't have to, but I think it often does. If you're going to strum, one thing you might want to practice is hitting only some of the strings. I mean particular ones, like the top four or 5, 4, and 3. I remember finding this difficult, but now it's no problem for me at all. I usually pull multiple strings rather than strum, but you can't do this with a flatpick. The face of your guitar will thank you for the improved pick control.

Even if you only want to accompany, I think it would be a good idea to practice playing the melody, especially by ear. It seems like playing melodies on the guitar should be easy, but it isn't. At least, I still have trouble playing them accurately, i.e., without making mistakes, even though I practice a lot. I should have started learning to do this sooner.

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 09:27 AM

if you tune your guitar dgdgbd[spanish tuning],youcan play tunes like wildwood flower and carter family songs plus five string banjo tunes using thumb for melody and brushing down with index and playing up with index,to get bum ditty rhythm of the banjo but using top string to replaceshort banjo g string,this is quite similiar to a 5 string banjo style known as thumb melody lead.not quite the same as harley but not disssimiliar.
this is also agreat tuning for playing melody picking with alternating basses[piedmont style guitar.
with this tuning if you replace the 5[a] string with an octave 12 string guitar string[3 gstring]youcan also play banjo tunes and do the bum dittyor clawhammer old timey etc as if you were using the high short g banjo string,so if you are used to playing 5string banjo you can do it on a guitar.

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: HarleySpirit
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 08:43 AM

Hi Becky,

I think you would be a great candidate for this "natural fingerpicking" style

Along with that, check out my Alternate Tunings Chord Charts link:
http://users.eastlink.ca/~harleyspi/tunings.html

Have Fun!
Harley

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 08:42 AM

I personally love the simplicity of Jimmie Rodgers's pick style, and the playing of Alton Delmore. Plenty of listening there - box sets of their complete recordings are available for a very good price.

Jimmie Rodgers's "Blue Yodel # 1(T for Texas)" is a classic example of his style. :-)

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 08:35 AM

"Anybody else into making that kind of sound (the Guthrie, Carter one)? How do you go at it?"

Some years ago, I found that I wasn't getting any better just pattern-picking, so I worked on playing chord melodies. Then, I found it was possible to play melodies and patterns, except that I could vary the patterns now instead of being locked into them. For practicing, I recommend concentrating on the melodies and finding positions for the chords that will get you the melody note and not worrying too much about the accompaniment at first. It will come.

This will get you to play all over the fretboard and you'll learn the individual notes of the chord positions instead of just that one position is "G", another is "Em", etc. You'll also be able to relate melodies to the chords and know what's possible with one voicing or another.

A nice thing about the bass notes of the guitar is that the fifth is on the next-lower string on the same fret (where there is a next-lower string, of course). This makes alternating between the fifth and the tonic very easy, which is nice, because this is the basis of most accompaniments. With practice, it can be varied.

Lately, I've been "thinning out" my style, playing less rather than more. It's nice to have the ability to play more, but less usually sounds better and it's easier on the hands.

I usually play with my bare fingers, but then I only have a classical guitar. I also keep my fingernails very short. I sometimes play with a flatpick and sometimes with a thumb pick and fingerpicks (metal) just for practice. In my opinion, the main thing about picks is: It doesn't matter. Use whatever you feel comfortable with. Each technique has its advantages and disadvantages.

I like the flatpick for single-line (or mostly single-line) playing. Otherwise, I prefer fingerpicking.

This sort of style seems to demand fairly simple chord changes with long periods of staying on one chord. If you use fancier chords, it starts to sound like Western Swing --- also good, but different. The simpler chord changes make it possible to really "stretch out" and play extended patterns. I recommend just experimenting with picking the strings in different orders, using different rhythms, etc. I didn't find that learning patterns out of a book helped me very much.

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 10:46 PM

Spaw - Gosh they sure look cute (natural!!) in that one, before the 1980s hit their hair and costumes. Dolly is amazing with her nails - no picks needed, but how does she get anything with her left hand??

[I've just paid Smithsonian-Folkways $0.99 for two tracks from Pete Seeger's "Folksinger's Guitar Guide". Am trying to figure out if the "church lick" and "Carter scratch" are one and the same, or if the term "church lick" ever existed independently...]

I do have some idea about strumming. I used to strum the nylon-string guitar with the backs of my fingernails (down on the index and middle, up on the thumb). For a flatpick, I've got to learn to hold on to it... and I find if I hold it close to the point, I don't have too much trouble finding individual strings if I want to.

Overall, I'm think I'm a better player now, having played the banjo this long, than I was when I left off. I have a lot more skill in my left hand than I did.

Need a lot of work on the callouses, though. And it sure takes a lot more to hammer on or especially to pull off on guitar strings than on banjo strings!

~ B in T

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 09:30 PM

BTW....I use this a lot and play with a thumbpick but no fingerpicks.

Spaw

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 09:29 PM

ALso what Cool said! IF you want to see a video, I suggest you watch and listen to Emmylou, Linda, and Dolly doing The Sweetest Gift with Emmyloy on guitar. You can hear it exactly with some easily added embellishments and watch on a couple of excellent side views. Though her hand looks closed as if on a flat pick, you can see its not. This is also a notable clip here because the "Gibson Girl" is playing a Martin.

The second song, Bury Me Beneath the Willow, has Dolly on guitar and again with an embellished Carter Scratch. Dolly is a much better picker than most know and how she does it with those damn nails is sorta' amazing.

The camera gives you several good pictures on each song and about half of learning this strum is in the listening.


Spaw

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: olddude
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 09:24 PM

i use finger picks only on a banjo, for what you want to do i flat pick like cool beans suggested. normally i just finger pick bare handed. you may want to drag our some art thieme songs also he used fingerpicks . whatever you are most comfortable with. they all work

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Cool Beans
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 09:13 PM

What Spaw said also applies to flatpicking, which is how I usually play that kind of music. (I don't liek thumbpicks.) A strong downstroke (BOOM), then a lighter down-up (Chukka). Not on every note, though. with practice, you'll get the feel of when to Chukka.

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 09:07 PM

And while I was contemplating that scratching, a couple of other voices are heard!

Leadfingers, I'm not too worried about slavishly copying, just exploring the possibilities at this point, and seeking inspiration.

Bobert, got any players I should listen to & look at?

Thanks, folks.

~ B in LB

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 09:05 PM

Thanks, Spaw. There is one bit of good video from the Johnny Cash show, and a lot of questionable other stuff with the "Carter Scratch" label on it...

I may have to work on the thumb pick thing. I find my clawhammer brain keeps slipping in gear when I do the finger scratch part I want to hit the low string like a banjo's 5th string... it doesn't quite work right. But, a bit of practice might help!

~ B in LB

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 08:50 PM

Ain't all that different than what the blues players were doing and what I still play today...

B~

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Leadfingers
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 08:47 PM

DONT COPY ! Do your own thing , work out your own style and let it happen ! Good Luck and HAVE FUN !

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 08:40 PM

Hi Becky!

The basic Maybelle Scratch is with thumb and first finger. Can you say BOOM-chukka-BOOM? Okay, now make your thumb the "BOOM" and your finger(s) the "chukka" with the down strum on the chuk and then upstroke on the ka....Repeat. After awhile you can add in the bass lines or melody. I think you can find some decent examples on YouTube.


Spaw

Subject: RE: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 08:22 PM

And as I posted on Facebook today: [I was] Listening to Woody Guthrie's "Dust Bowl Ballads" and thinking that my new mission is to be as good an "indifferent" guitar player as he was. (That adjective from something I read yesterday.)

Subject: playing 1930s country guitar style
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 08:08 PM

Well, after about a 20-year hiatus, I'm back to playing guitar. My dearie has facilitated the acquisition of an OM type from John S. Kinnard.

I got my start on guitar on an old Stella that was in the family, then for my 16th birthday got a Yamaha classical, which I mostly fingerpicked.

About 20 years ago, I took up clawhammer banjo, and neglected the guitar in the meantime. astro wanted to get me back to the guitar and thought that if I had a new one, I'd feel obligated to play it... I guess he's right.

I've been trying to figure out what kind of music I'd want a guitar for and now that I'm starting to noodle about on it, what comes out is sort of an old 1930's country sort of thing - Woody Guthrie, Maybelle Carter, "Goodbye Old Paint", etc.: strummy, with a little bit of melody in the bass or middle strings, or some simple bass runs. Definitely song accompaniment, not solo instrumentals. Nothing particularly fast, either,

I didn't use picks on my classical guitar (I'm no Willie Nelson ;-) I find I'm inclined to use a flat pick on steel strings: the downpicking feels like what I do on banjo. When I put on a thumbpick, I get confused, though I know that's what some folks who I like the sound of use.

(This guitar would do fine for fingerpicking, too, so that may come later, also string band accompaniment strumming, if I can get the speed up...)

Anybody else into making that kind of sound (the Guthrie, Carter one)? How do you go at it?

Any songs or players or albums you'd recommend of that era or flavor?

Any other thoughts or encouragements?

Muchas gracias in advance --

~ Becky in Long Beach