Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 02:10 PM

He summed it up as "Sing the words as you would speak them".
Many revival singers, on the other hand, adopt what we used to call four square singing; breaking words up - best example I can think of is Liv-er-pool instead of Liverpool.

I've been practising The Holland Handkerchief for a while, & realised today that I was singing the word 'squire' with the accent on the second syllable -

A wealthy squi-ER lived in our town...

And a couple of lines later, singing 'daughter' with as much weight on the second syllable as the first -

He had one Daugh, Ter, of beauty bright

Totally unnatural. Habits like that are hard to break, but I think it's worth a try.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Rasener
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 02:09 PM

What has Heskey got to do with this thread Dick Miles and stop flaming.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 02:03 PM

I'll continue to watch this thread - am especially interested in what curve-balls Sinead might throw me - but I think I probably don't need to post here any further. Meanwhile I've started another thread here: Female Folk Vocalists of Distinction inviting all to post names an YouTubes if possible of striking, characterful and individualistic female voices in folk. If you feel that any of the names that have been mentioned here in the "Weak, Breathy, Girly" category belong there too, please feel free to post away ;-)

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 01:34 PM

"abandon hope all ye who enter here"
Of course I didn't mean the suggestion seriously, but I certainly don't think it does any harm to remind people occasionally - especially those who keep telling us that the old stuff has had its day and it's time we cleared the stage for the Young Lions - wonder where Bob Copper would have fitted into all that.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 01:30 PM

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: EnglishFolkfan - PM
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 10:24 AM

I read this well written review of The Unthanks, Jonny Kearney and Lucy Farrell live in Dublin by SIOBHÁN LONG for the Irish Times online this morning and immediately thought it had relevance to this thread because it discusses the Folk voice and song:

Irish Times 30mar10

I hadn't dared mention the Unthank sisters on here before because I knew what adverse comments would arise. I have heard them in both acoustic small setting and in vast Festival tents and (possibly because I like the NE England accent esp in song) always enjoy their live performances (which, please note EFKanne, does combine a good variety of songs) as well as their CD's
   feel free to enjoy who you like,some folks liked the new christy minstrels,some folks like the Unthanks ,some like Peter Pears singing folk songs,it takes all sorts,now I like the Wilson family[who also have a NE england accent].

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 01:22 PM

Enjoy what you like and stop criticising others.
quote villan.
this comes from the man who takes his ball away,and wont discuss,when someone disagrees with his valuation of Emil Heskey as a footballer.
Villan you are pretty free with your criticisms of Heskey,I happen to enjoy watching him,even when he cocks it up.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 01:20 PM

"PS Sorry CS - not sure if all this is relevant to your question"

No prob Jim, it feels like this thread has already helped me pretty well towards finding an answer (or answers) to my initial question. Others will come to their own conclusions, no doubt they will be quite different to mine. I'm still unsure about how I *feel* about some of the things this thread has brought up though.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 01:10 PM

Fellow Scouser:
Sorry, I missed your posting
"Where do they get these people?"
Where do they get them is right - one of the reasons I'm not happy with competition singing or playing.
I understand that some of the early revivalists broke with EFDSS in the early days of the revival because the Society organised a competition where they put young, 'in their prime' singers up against elderly source singers like George Maynard, and then pontificated publicly on the rights and wrongs of the singing.
In my opinion there is a great confusion on what we learn from our older singers.
Songs, certainly, but no young, or even middle-aged singer in their right mind wants to sound like an octogenarian East Anglian (especally if they come from Brum or The Pool).
This doesn't mean that there is nothing to learn about technique from them.
The two things I have noticed as being the difference between traditional singers and many revival singers relates to phrasing and tone.
The older singers tend to sing in speech patterns, breathing with the commas and full stops where possible and in this way maintaining the sense of the narrative. Clare singer Tom Lenihan went into some detail on this subject explaining how you had to "keep the sense of the story". He demonstrated how, when this wasn't always possible because of how the words lay with the tune, he would use short humming sounds "when there weren't enough words to fit the tune". - a fairly common device among Irish singers in general. He summed it up as "Sing the words as you would speak them".
Many revival singers, on the other hand, adopt what we used to call four square singing; breaking words up - best example I can think of is Liv-er-pool instead of Liverpool.
The other difference is that most traditional singers pitch their singing around where they pitch their speaking voice.
All this makes perfect sense to me when you consider the Irish "Say a song" rather than "Sing a song".
Just listen to Sam Larner singing 'Butter and Cheese and All'; he always interjected a bit of speech after the penultimate line:

"The dogs they barked, the children screamed, out ran the old women and all ("And you know what they are, don't you?" (spoken).

It is always a part rather than an interruption of the narrative - you can't see the join.
Jim Carroll
PS Sorry CS - not sure if all this is relevant to your question - a hobby horse of mine.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 12:46 PM

"Enjoy what you like and stop criticising others."

Yes, please. Some of us are simply asking that we be allowed to discuss something, without being criticised for simply wanting to have that discussion likewise.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Rasener
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 12:39 PM

Beautiful song, beautiful singer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PZDD_Zt6MA

Very nice natural lady with a very nice song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZkjrgS_lKY&feature=related

Seen these live, enjoyed them very much, talked to em and they are really nice people
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7RaSoe435s&feature=related

I think a lot of you are so blinkered in your tastes of music. Not everybody agrees with you. I for one.

We all have our likes and dislikes. Why can't you learn to encompass and accept that Folk is wide reaching and so varied.

Enjoy what you like and stop criticising others.

There is room for everybody in this world.

Peace to you all

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 12:27 PM

Just throwing this into the mix.. Google Images of some of the "weak, breathy, girly" artists cited on this thread by others (both those who like and dislike this vocal style) plus others from searches for "pageant girl", "victorian doll", "fairy child" etc.

Image No' 1 Image No' 2 Image No' 3 Image No' 4 Image No' 5 Image No' 6 Image No' 7 Image No' 8 Image No' 9

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 10:42 AM

The Unthanks are flavour of the week in the Irish Tines it seems, this is Saturday's interview . Not sure though what to think about seeing Siobhan Long and well-written mentioned in one sentence.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 10:28 AM

"should be framed and hung on the wall of every folk club. "

Won't that just encourage everyone to join in and have a really good time!







It would be hung next to the Brownies, W.I. and Carpet Bowls notice boards in our case!

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 10:25 AM

oferfuxache ... cut it out. too friggin much testosterone in this fred.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: EnglishFolkfan
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 10:24 AM

I read this well written review of The Unthanks, Jonny Kearney and Lucy Farrell live in Dublin by SIOBHÁN LONG for the Irish Times online this morning and immediately thought it had relevance to this thread because it discusses the Folk voice and song:

Irish Times 30mar10

I hadn't dared mention the Unthank sisters on here before because I knew what adverse comments would arise. I have heard them in both acoustic small setting and in vast Festival tents and (possibly because I like the NE England accent esp in song) always enjoy their live performances (which, please note EFKanne, does combine a good variety of songs) as well as their CD's.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 10:13 AM

or every singer should be framed and hung on the wall,preferably by their testicles so that they sing in a high weak breathy voice.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: theleveller
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 10:04 AM

"should be framed and hung on the wall of every folk club. "

Probably ending with "abandon hope all ye who enter here"

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 09:38 AM

This thread has cued an interest in female folk singer songwriters. So I did a google search and cannot find a comprehensive list of aforementioned. There are spatterings here and there, most starting the Joni Mitchell and ending with Ani DiFranco.

Should there be a thread about that? Maybe a permathread actually that provides names and background info. Maybe organised by country of origin and then by circa dates.

Just a thought.

I'd have some names to add - Devon Sproule, Jan Smith (USA), and Haruko (Germany) to start.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 09:08 AM

Can I echo EKanne's thanks to Vic.
"You know, Vic, learning one of the old songs is a bit like renting or buying a house. You can make a few changes to it, decorate it in the way that suits you, but it also brings a responsibility. You must make sure that it is kept in good order for the next person that you pass it on to… That was what I was looking for when I was judging those singers"
should be framed and hung on the wall of every folk club.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Anne Neilson
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 05:21 AM

Vic, thank you for a post that so clearly sets out what the tradition (in song) is about - in my opinion. I've sat in companies where songs have been shared, and it's those singers who give the songs that are meaningful and important to them who have the most effect and who command the most respect.
If a song is only chosen as a demonstration of technique - whether that be the breathy (sexy?) wispy vocals of some of the current singers, or the endless whirlings of the Mariah Carey wannabes who lose all sense of melody never mind content - it could never please me as much as a song delivered in a less-than-perfect voice from a singer who knows exactly what that song is about.
And if I could pick up a point from another post, I'd like to plead for singers (and not just the younger ones) to consider the balance of their repertoire - by all means, choose songs that you like, but try to find a bit of variety too. If you're attracted to songs of love and relationships, try to find a mixture that will include some pacy songs, a chorus now and again, some dark wrist-slitters and the odd bit of knockabout farce as well as the beautifully melodious. If you can do all of that, you'll find a very grateful audience!

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Mavis Enderby
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 05:00 AM

CS - Gimme some woman with attitude pleeze ;-)

I've posted this before but why not again: Esma Redzepova- Szelem Szelem

There ya go!

Pete.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Suegorgeous
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 04:58 AM

"Was watching a fill-in (pop) video on TV with a breathy young female - and realised that technically, the video MUST be mimed - so then, how can she NOT mime all her 'live' concerts?"

Of course pop videos are mimed, they have to be - they're promoting the song's studio-recorded version, as that's what's being marketed.

Doesn't follow at all that the artist's live concerts will be mimed! that's another product entirely.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 04:22 AM

Hi Sinead, thanks for more perspective from a younger folk audience. You're 17, I'm twenty years your senior, so I'm not in the loop with music in the way I might have been as a teenager. What I'd be curious to know, is what *other* current female singers you really like - current female singers who *don't* sing folk? Women from pop & rock genres etc?

Though I'm not going to be as up to date as you by a very long straw, if I think of 'modernish' female artists I like, they would include singers like Bjork, Alison Goldfrapp, Polly Harvey, Katie White (from the Ting Tings above), Shirley Manson, Roisin Murphy etc. I think it's far harder for female artists to rise to the top of the pile and female artists who don't embody certain stereotypes in particular. And while not all of the artists I cited represent 'belting' voices, they all (to me) are possessed of a unique dynamic presence and potency that I really appreciate. With that in mind, perhaps you might better understand my personal struggle with the preponderance of effete or girlish female folky singers we find representing the genre to a wider audience?

So, by way of comparison, maybe you could indulge me and throw us some names of current non-folk female singers (whether solo or fronting bands) that I won't know, so I can look them up. That'd really help me get a hang on your tastes more broadly?

And more particularly, it might help me to understand what it is that 'bridges the gap' for you, and for others of your generation?

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: melodeonboy
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 04:11 AM

"Was watching a fill-in (pop) video on TV with a breathy young female - and realised that technically, the video MUST be mimed.."

I assume that pop videos are almost always mimed.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: matt milton
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 04:00 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCuurQzR1iU&feature=related

here's some footage of Cath Tyler. She's a proper singer.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 10:27 PM

Head voice does NOT have to be breathy!

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 08:07 PM

Was watching a fill-in (pop) video on TV with a breathy young female - and realised that technically, the video MUST be mimed - cause there is no way to get that distance of shot if she needs to sing close up to a microphone - so then, how can she NOT mime all her 'live' concerts? :-)

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 07:56 PM

even though she doesn't sing anymore, her speaking voice still sends shivers up my spine

This gives me a vision of fans engaging Shirley C. in conversation and trying to trick her into speaking some of those lines...

Fan: "I do love the Blacksmith, but I can never remember the first line for some reason... 'a blacksmith haunted me', no, that can't be right..."
SC: You mean, A blacksmith courted me, nine months or better...?
Fan: "Oh yes, of course. And that other one's good too, 'it's forty-nine winters since she was a bride'..."

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 06:47 PM

I'm no expert on this but I think Vic's post above hits the nail on the head. This isn't about focus on the voice but more about the singer telling the story with a voice that irresistibly draws us in. I've just been listening to a Delia Murphy album (purchased as a result of reading a recent thread here!)and her voice just makes you listen to the words and there's not a trace of strain or affectation (though quite a lot of wry raising of a knowing metaphorical eyebrow!). Deliberately breathy/cod-ethereal singing, or the addition of "effects" to recordings, merely puts a veil between the song and the listener. That's fine with brainless pop lyrics but it don't do it for me in folk songs. It's the song, not the singer. And, though my dabblings are mostly Irish traditional music, I happen to be a bit of a Shirley Collins completist and, to me, she's peerless. There's a place on the Etchingham Steam Band album (not my favourite by a long chalk) where she does a bit of banter before launching into a song, and there's something incredibly seamless about the move from chat into song. What you hear is Shirley Collins unadorned and you can then forget it's her and listen to the story. I'll bet that's exactly what she wanted.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 04:48 PM

anne briggs was born in nottinghamshire,so whats this crap about not knowing northern dialect and when has she attempted to sing in anything Other than her nottingham accent.
sorry,I disagree Shirley Collins is not [IMO]a particularly good singer of ballads,
But she is good at Siussex songs and certain lyrical songs JUST AS THE TIDE, DABBLIN IN THE DEW, CLAUDY BANKs etc.
Some people talk complete claptrap.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 04:36 PM

My feeling with traditional song has always been that the singer is the vehicle and the song is the message. For me, effective singing of traditional song involves a very low display of ego on the part of the performer. Everything that deviates attention from enjoyment of the song is a distraction.

Every time the singer does something to obscure the enjoyment of a song or to disrupt the flow of the story in a ballad then they are doing a disservice to it. So every time we are aware that the singer is trying to project the message, "Listen to what a lovely voice I have and what I can do with it" rather than "Listen to these lovely words and how well they are enhanced by the melody" then something is wrong. (I ought to emphasise that this is my opinion for singers of traditional songs - for jazz singers, crooners, rock belters, soul divas etc. the values are clearly different.)

So, every time we become aware of the singer using vocal tricks and mannerisms rather than being aware of the unfolding of the song, then the value of that performance is reduced. This applies to the breathy girliness of this thread but also to a mass of other vocal devices and tonal and diction aberrations that are prevalent throughout the folk scene's practitioners.

This is not to say that that decorating a melody is not appropriate; of course it is, but we can't all have the vocal control of Paddy Tunney and his ilk, so listen carefully to yourself very critically.... if it does not come out naturally then cut it out. You are not helping the song and that is the prime consideration in all of this.

I am reminded once again of the closing section of a long obituary that I wrote about Bob Copper in 2004:-

I'd like to finish with something that Bob said to me around twenty years ago now, but which has stuck in my mind ever since. I was interviewing him, yet again, and this time it was for an article that I was writing on 'Competitions and Folk Music'. Bob had recently been judging the folk singing competition at the Sidmouth Festival. I was outlining the song competition regulations that were given to the judges at the Fleadh Ceol in Ireland and at the traditional singing competitions organised by the T.M.S.A. in Scotland – awarding marks for style, delivery, intonation, choice of material, etc. Bob looked a bit uncomfortable when I was going through this and then he said, "You know, Vic, learning one of the old songs is a bit like renting or buying a house. You can make a few changes to it, decorate it in the way that suits you, but it also brings a responsibility. You must make sure that it is kept in good order for the next person that you pass it on to… That was what I was looking for when I was judging those singers." That is what Bob did in more than eighty years with his family's rich cultural heritage. That is what we all should be doing.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 03:44 PM

"As for Anne Briggs's attempt at t'northern deealect, ecky thump lad."

Try this instead: Icky Thump Just a pity Sis' who bangs the drums ain't also singing.. Tho' on a tangent to gurl singers how about this modern miss: That's not my name

Hey, all I'm saying is these breathy folk lasses, they ain't singing in my name! Gimme some woman with attitude pleeze ;-)

Sinead, just having a wee random moment - I'll get back to your post later.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 03:33 PM

"She is, at root, a plain Sussex women".

I agree that she is plural, but not that she's plain. Even in her 70s she's beautiful. And her lecturing voice is just like her singing voice.

Voices for coises; Shirley's voice is fine for telling a story or a lyrical ballad, and a voice that could drown out a trad jazz band is no good for that kind of stuff.

What puts me off is falseness: pseudo- mystic Seltic twilight echo machine (complete with low whistle), deep Lancashire doing nonspecific American, blokes with whisky beards who'd have yez believe they're from Dubalin when you know they're from Solihull. As for Anne Briggs's attempt at t'northern deealect, ecky thump lad.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 03:12 PM

kate rusby is folk music,
is that relevant
but is she a good singer,she certainly has a tuneful voice,but does that make her a good singer,personally i find her good on some and not good on others.,i find her variable

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: janemick
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 03:04 PM

Hey! I used to sing with a weak 'head' voice, till I suddenly 'changed gear' during a Strawhead concert.
I think that at school I was always expected to sing in a key much too high for my normal voice, and this came to seem normal. Only when I tried singing in a key much lower than this, with lowered inhibitions (couldn't hear myself think) allowed me to find a much lower, stronger voice. This meant that my husband Pete had to change all his harmonies, but hey!

We are singing with a couple of friends now, and have managed to get Carol to use her chest voice too, so she sings with a much stronger sound. I'm sure most women need to try singing much lower than most do. Try using the voice that you would use to communicate with someone across a large, windy courtyard! regards Jane Mickelborough

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: GUEST,Sinéad
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 02:58 PM

Hiya, Sinéad again.

A few points have been made since my original post and some I shall address (hopefully all, but I may forget some).

Posted by Artful Codger:

"I think Sinead's comment about "dismissing" folk music, as well as the comments about needing a "bridge" into folk music, are very telling, because they do imply that people judge by what they're fed."

You are correct, I did make a slight contradiction there, but I think you have taken it slightly out of context or maybe I didn't explain myself well enough. What I was referring to then, was the number of threads about "the future of folk music" and "how to get youngsters into folk" and such. I am not denying that there are probably a huge percentage of people who DO judge by what they're fed, and thus to "catch" these people, to show them the beauty of folk music and it's community, the more commercial artists are essential, I think. Also, I did not say I would've "dismissed folk music", but I would have probably dismissed Anne Briggs. To me, whatever anyone here says, Kate Rusby is folk music. It may not be 100% traditional, but it isn't like she isn't true to the tradition; her instruments are traditional a lot of the time, as are her song choices. I think it's a slight insult to disclude her from the genre altogether. My other point was that a lot of people in this thread seemed to assume all young people were exactly the same- as if we dawdle into HMV and go "ooooh, she's pretty, me buy CD of pretty lady, la de da de". It simply isn't true for the majority and I don't think I know anyone under the age of 30 who would not play a CD because the person on the front was ugly or unpleasantly dressed , like some people did suggest. Also, whilst I don't think we NEED bridges to folk music, I do think they are very useful to catch some stray listeners, to keep the tradition alive and fresh- and even if you feel they don't fulfil that potential, what harm to they present?

"Folk/traditional music doesn't need to appeal to "wider audiences"; like classical music, it has become a niche taste which will survive on its own merits."

With all due respect, I think classical music has a much larger audience than folk music does, for a few big reasons . Firstly, I believe religion has a lot to do with it. I also believe that the way psychologists and scientists present classical music influences the sales of classical CDs- often they are promoted with the promise of higher IQ in children, relaxing qualities and a device for improving your own mental stimulation- all things of which today's modern society are craving. Lastly, let's not forget the likes of Hayley Westenra, Katherine Jenkins, G4 and other such young, beautiful contemporary classical artists. I know for a fact that there are people who went to my school who would have not explored the depth of classical music in the way they have if it wasn't for Katherine Jenkins bridging that "young-mature" gap and making the whole genre much more acceptable among peers. I think it's certainly easy to forget that when you're out of school, actually a large percentage of time spent there is trying to be accepted, liked and valued by your peers- the likes of Hayley Westenra made it okay to listen to classical music. This in itself may be wrong, weak or pathetic, but it is the mind of an adolescent and I'm sure it has a will always be a prominent part of growing up, and it's an important fact to remember when talking about bridges into genre's or hobbies that may otherwise be deemed "uncool". So, I feel that the likes of Rusby, Dillon, The Unthanks serve the same kind of purpose within folk. I also know plenty of older folkies who enjoy their interpretations of songs as much as they do Nora Cleary and Liz Jefferies.

"The "bridges" tend to supplant rather than popularize the original music. Most people just stick with the "accessible" pap they're fed; they don't go on from Kate Rusby to discover Annie Briggs or Maddy Prior...."

I'm afraid this is simply untrue. I know plenty of people who have discovered artists this way, as well as myself, as mentioned above. Also, I'm not quite sure how you can prove that point. I also know of a particular young singer, who's in a folk rock band, who draws her singing inspiration not just from Rusby and The Unthanks, but also Prior, Tabor, Collins and her vast collection of "The Voice of the People." However, she still remains true to her own voice and, I feel, sings with a purity and dignity worthy of any traditional-lover's approval. She's only twenty one. There aren't many young people on this board to stand up for our tastes, opinions or correct assumptions about our age group, which I feel can misguide the course of topic conversations at times because others are left to speculate without any other kind of voice to present an alternative view. However, I digress.

"And I certainly don't want to see that affectation become dominant in the folk world, particularly since it's directly in opposition to virtually all traditional styles."

I'm sorry, but how do you know how people sang in the 1800's? Also, are you a sailor? A minor, perhaps? A plough boy? Do you graft like the characters in most traditional songs do? Are you a victim of these harsh realities? I don't mean to pry or assume, but I would place some money on you not actually being a sailor or a minor, or a plough boy. Does this mean you should not be able to sing songs written from the point of view of such characters? Should you just leave them alone and save them for the people that are? This would be truly traditional, would it not? But then tradition would quickly decline of course. My point is that to highlight traditions, to bring them to life or educate others about them, they need not be pure, but a fair representation of the words. I agree that there are some singers who do not justify this but all of the top contemporaries I know, do.

Besides, sometimes it's just nice to hear a lovely, pretty voice sing lovely melodies with feeling, emotion and guts- whether that voice be the strength and brute of Lal Waterson or the girly husky sweet timbre of Kate Rusby.

By the way, Artful Codger, my post is not a personal attack on you by any means, and my post isn't addressed solely at you, it's just your post is the one that stood out for me to argue against (which can only be a good thing!), so I hope you don't take any of what I've said personally or with offence.


Sinéad.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 02:05 PM

Hmm, maybe as a counterpoint to this thread, it might be worth starting a thread celebrating "characterful, idiosyncratic and individualistic female voices in folk?" Be great if we could get some YouTubes up too, though it might be more challenging to find examples of the work of such singers online, due to reasons already discussed.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 02:02 PM

Penny
Try starting to sing a song then - in the middle of a line go into your speaking voice without hesitation - you should be able to tell then.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: mattkeen
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 01:53 PM

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Morris-ey - PM
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 09:54 AM

"...mid twenties women sound like 12 year olds - especially if they are singing Cruel Mother or a dark incest ballad"

I'd have thought that sounding like a 12 year old when singing a "dark incest ballad" would be just right..."



No a mid 20's pretending to be a 12 year old in an incest ballad is decidedly weird

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: GUEST,Banjiman
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 01:48 PM

"but I certainly don't think (as I'm sure everyone here would agree) that there is a correct and universal 'folky' style than everyone aught to aspire to reproduce."

Absolutely right.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 01:40 PM

"whether my voice really counted as folky at all,"

Penny, I hope no-one reading this thread starts to feel paranoid that their own natural voice is in any way not 'folky' enough, or not 'folky' in the correct way.

If anything this thread was for me questioning why a very particular kind of 'girlish breathy folky' voice seemed to be more prominent and visible than other kinds. And according to some comments here, such a vocal style may be increasingly becoming a kind of folk 'vocal role model' for younger singers soaking this style up and reproducing it.

For my own sins, I think I've subliminally absorbed too much from revival singers styles. Not an intentional thing, but it's happened nevertheless! In retrospect I wish I'd have used more of the work of traditional singers when starting out so that I could get more to the heart of the thing from get-go rather than have my reading of songs mediated by revival stylings.

I think it's difficult to find ones own voice - it's something that I'm feeling challenged by now, but I certainly don't think (as I'm sure everyone here would agree) that there is a correct and universal 'folky' style than everyone aught to aspire to reproduce.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Penny S.
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 01:26 PM

Yes, but accents vary according to whether the speaker is male or female - I can do Sarf Lun'non male, but not female - I don't hear it often enough. Don't want to do the same with my native speech.

I'm doin what comes natrully when I sing, whatever it is, and it is quite loud.

The other thing I thought, reading the thread, was what is happening in schools. The one I taught in is using a music scheme which does not include much singing, they don't have anyone to do a choir, they don't do much hymn singing in assembly, and Christmas concerts tend to go down the Jingle Bells road. And Slade.

I went to the funeral of an ex-pupil the other year, and boys from his school turned up en masse. I expected something like the massed BB singing I heard as a child, but no. Singing out was not happening.

So no church singing - and what there is is not so stretching as of old, more worship songs than hymns, musically less demanding, less school singing. Watching DVDs in the car instead of belting out ten green bottles etc. Less singing in the playground. The children don't even know that Batman smells and Robin's gone away. Or that teacher hit me with the ruler and father hit me with the walking stick.

There were some children who found the way I sing rather odd. And embarrassing. Until Pavarotti and Nessun Dorma. They aren't used to belting, so no surprise if they grow up and don't belt themselves.

Penny

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 01:11 PM

PENNYS
my advice to you is use your natural voice,make sure you are breathing from your diaphragm,and practise breath control,then go away and listen to Sarah Makem,Jeannie Robertson Margaret Barry.
If you want sussex accent listen to bob and ron copper

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Penny S.
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 01:04 PM

Reading this and wondering whether I was using head or chest, and indeed whether my voice really counted as folky at all, I tumbled across the reference to a collection of recordings of Sussex and Hampshire women singers - anyone know where I could listen to these? I lost contact with the Sussex voice at 11, and never hear it anywhere now (I noticed the other day that a farmer character on Foyle's Law was completely wrong, but where he would have found a proper model I don't know. And the coastal accent would be different, too.) I'd like to be able to refer to it again - the mouth shape would be totally different to Dartford, though, and take a bit of work.

Penny

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 12:51 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyWSNjDAmEM

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 12:49 PM

Dick Miles sings unaccompanied herehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnHxwZb_Hig
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnHxwZb_Hig

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: GUEST,Jim Redfern
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 10:59 AM

Thinking further,it ain't just the girls.I can think of few young male thrusters who do much other than under-sing a song.Most,if not all,are instrument accompanied and the strong trend is to let the instrument[s] be the listening focus.Where are the new unaccompanied singers?The reasons lie in the fact that revival singers of the60's/70's who took their material from traditional singers placed massively more emphasis on instrumentation.Today's young lights learn their material from the aforementioned revivalists and the song and quality of song becomes even more diluted.That's called development.Great singers exist in the underground movement,still,but few youngsters of alleged note know they exist,in my view.

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: GUEST,Jim Redfern
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 10:45 AM

Dorothy Elliott...Chris Coe...Peta Webb...Eileen Pratt...Lal Waterson.
None to come anywhere near 'em now and I can't see that the trend will swing back

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: Morris-ey
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 09:54 AM

"...mid twenties women sound like 12 year olds - especially if they are singing Cruel Mother or a dark incest ballad"

I'd have thought that sounding like a 12 year old when singing a "dark incest ballad" would be just right...

Subject: RE: Weak Breathy Girly Vocals in Folk?
From: GUEST,Working Radish
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 09:41 AM

James Yorkston (whose voice is very weak in terms of projection, although not breathy) does quite a likeable version of BBBD, although for reasons best known to himself he re-sexes it without changing the names - so "I married a girl for her money", etc. He slows it right down and sings it not much above a mumble - it sounds like the singer's quietly falling asleep while consoling herself (or himself) with a revenge fantasy. Unfortunately his only recorded version of the song is marred by being sung in a major key, which makes it sound far too cheerful.

I'm not crazy about the song myself. To me it has the ring of a comic (music hall?) song: a Mrs Gamp/Hilda Ogden figure, a comedy working-class woman, complaining articulately about her husband, and concluding with the hilarious notion that she might go and get drunk herself.