BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election

Subject: RE: BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 08 Apr 10 - 05:05 AM

Just to remind us:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU2tH1wCAFw

Subject: RE: BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election
From: GUEST,Allan Connochie
Date: 08 Apr 10 - 04:29 AM

"Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 07:12 PM

PS - which of us do you think actually knows more Etonians, you or me? "

That has to be the most smug comment I have ever read on mudcat Richard.
The phrase "A snob without substance" comes to mind.

It would appear most here tend to agree with Don.

Subject: RE: BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Apr 10 - 03:24 AM

Don, semantic quibbling does nothing to help your masters out of a cleft stick. They spent weeks maybe months saying that immediate austerity was essential to cut national debt. Now they say it isn't. Oh boy I can see them managing the economy.

Your masters spent months and months saying that the Brown/Darling measures to palliate the recession were wrong - now the OECD says that the UK economy is set to grow the fastest of all in Europe. Oh boy can I see them managing the economy.

Watch it all go to pot if the rich kids get in and as always take the lion's share for themselves and sod the rest of us.

Don't even get me started on that American rentagob woman on Question Time last night.

Subject: RE: BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 08:23 PM

How do you reconcile Tory ideology with Socialism?

Or do you just go which ever way the Mudcat wind is blowing?

Subject: RE: BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 08:16 PM

""Well, Don, make up your mind: is the problem national debt, or is it more important to cut national insurance to benefit big industry?""

For the umpteenth, and hopefully last, time, He is not cutting National Insurance.

He is simply refusing to increase it for those earning less than £150,000 which is what Brown intends.

If you see that as favouring the rich, it's as well you studied Law, and not Maths.

I'm wasting my time here. No open mind in sight.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 07:21 PM

Remember Richard, were all equal now, even Etonians!
Whether they like it or not....eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 07:12 PM

PS - which of us do you think actually knows more Etonians, you or me?

Subject: RE: BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 07:11 PM

Well, Don, make up your mind: is the problem national debt, or is it more important to cut national insurance to benefit big industry?

Your Etonians have for months been saying that the primary need is to repay the debt obligations necessarily incurred to combat the recession (and incidentally the OECD is now saying that the UK economy is expected to grow faster than any other economy in Europe in the coming 14 months which is of course thanks to Brown and Darling).

Now their pals are scared of paying their share of the burden of meeting that obligation, and just before an election, the Etonians propose a giveaway. They propose to fund it out of efficiency savings that (a) have already been figured in to debt repayment capability and (b) they themselves were rubbishing as impossible only two weeks ago.

Jesus wept, bring back Pinnochio.

Subject: RE: BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 06:25 PM

BTW, while I don't feel that Boris has done a particularly bad job, I have no problem with Ken, and agree that he would do better.

If I lived in London he would get my vote too, because he is above all a honestly committed socialist. New Labour are glad to see him in the Mayoral post, it keeps him out of their hair.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 06:20 PM

""The libs were the only parliamentary party against the iraq war, they were the party responsible for getting the Ghurkas what they deserved, they have the best envirnmental policies.

Reading your views on here and comparing them to the views of the three main parties, you would be best represented by them too.""

O.K. Lox, since you are one of the few who are prepared to discuss the issues, rather than the educational status of candidates, let's just apply a little analysis to your statement.

Yes, on the face of it, you would appear to be right, but experience tells a slightly different story.

Firstly, let's agree that the chances of the LibDems achieving an overall majority are effectively zilch, partly because nobody knows what they would do in government.

Given that they have, on the whole, with a couple of notable exceptions, no experience whatever, it seems very likely that they would fall prey to the manipulations of the Sir Humphreys (and if Richard is looking for public schoolboys to despise, he'd be spoilt for choice there).

I hardly think that would redound to the benefit of the poorest in society.

So the best they could reasonably be expected to achieve would be to hold the balance of power in a hung Parliament.

This leads to a second, and much more cogent reason not to vote for them if, as seems to be the case, you have lost faith in Brown.

Since I reached the age at which I could vote, in 1959, There have been three occasions when the Liberals (later the LibDems) held the balance of power,

They could have done so much good by using their common sense and cherrypicking the most sensible policies of both sides, and supprting them issue by issue,

What did they actually do?......On each occasion they refused to consider any policy from the Tories, whom they loathe and detest, and contented themselves with rubber stamping Labour's decisions, right or wrong. And Labour each time made promises about electoral reform, which evaporated like Scotch Mist once they had the Liberals (LibDems) in their pocket.

So go ahead, vote LibDem, and if the Tories do not get an overall majority, you will have bought yourself five more years of Gordon Brown incompetence.

Who knows, he might even manage to get government debt up to Two Trillion?

He can do that, he's done it before.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election
From: Lox
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 04:43 PM

Don - I accept what you say about the two tory parties, and how the one which has been tested has been shown to be pretty rubbish, but I don't accept your response to my comment about ideals.

My conscience and honesty compel me to choose the party that best represents my point of view, and to avoid ALL the tories on parade, be they red or blue.

The libs were the only parliamentary party against the iraq war, they were the party responsible for getting the Ghurkas what they deserved, they have the best envirnmental policies.

Reading your views on here and comparing them to the views of the three main parties, you would be best represented by them too.

I also feel pretty strongly that my opposition to Boris was vindicated, and I will be voting for Ken again when he reapplies for the job of mayor of London.

Subject: RE: BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 03:33 PM

"Conservative member". Yes, I like that. How true.

When will you learn? The public school system is about networking with like-born chaps. Been there, done that.

The record of the (alas non-socialist) "New Labour" party in breaking free from the Thatcherite agenda bequeathed to it by press stupidity adn of course another public schoolboy and palliating and maybe rectifying the problems caused by that agenda is quite remarkable.

Brown's upbringing in the manse emphasised responsibility: Cameron's and Osborne's privilege. Whose side so you think they are on?

Subject: RE: BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election
From: Mavis Enderby
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 02:31 PM

Quite agree BP. What a way to p*ss all over democracy. He'll probably get his vile Digital Economy Bill forced through parliament tonight.

Subject: RE: BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 12:37 PM

I don't know Richard,
I found the fact that the opening post did little to praise the Labour party, but railed against the education of a Conservative member, seemed quite in keeping with how the Labour party are running their campaign.
If you've got no new policies, just slag-off the opposition, it's probably easier than confronting the issues!

Subject: RE: BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 12:25 PM

By their friends shall ye know them. Have you noticed that Don?

The only real choice is the lesser of two weevils, and the Etonian party are the nastiest maggots.

Subject: RE: BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election
From: Big Phil
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 12:11 PM

I would rather pluck my eyes out with a blunt twig than vote for a Party with Baron Peter Benjamin Mandelson of Foy in the County of Herefordshire and Hartlepool in the County of Durham, First Secretary of State, Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, Lord President of the Council in it.

BP. [img]http://www.pic4ever.com/images/SEVeyesC08_th.gif[/img]

Subject: RE: BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 10:08 AM

Admit it. We're all turkeys voting on what time to have Christmas dinner.

Subject: RE: BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 10:03 AM

I'm not fanatically devoted to any party to the exclusion of rational thought, but I am fanatical about the rebuttal of lies and half truths used to support the arguments of those who are.

There's a complete lack of respect for others' beliefs, compounded with a lack of respect for facts, in the image some people present, not just of the Conservative Party, but of Conservative voters too.

We, not the Party Apparat, are the grass roots Tories whose honesty and integrity Richard Bridge denies, and most of us have never been within twenty miles of Eton.

In point of fact, Tony Blair's offspring went to private school. Will Richard want them debarred from standing as MPs I wonder?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 09:49 AM

John:
Firemen on the railway, long after the end of steam trains, electricians walking out, because a carpenter rewired his own power tool plug, etc etc.
Most of us are aware of the problems, some just choose to ignore them! (and try to turn this into a class war based on where someone got his education)

Subject: RE: BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 08:36 AM

You forgot double manning, and restrictive practices Don.
Firemen on the railway, long after the end of steam trains, electricians walking out, because a carpenter rewired his own power tool plug, etc etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 06:15 AM

""Just part of her legacy was the destruction of actual manufacturing in this country and the handing of control and power to city spivs - and thus the recent economic problems.""

Well I suppose if you are going to tell a lie you might as well tell a big one.

UK manufacturing had been on the skids for donkeys years before Maggie came to Downing Street.

Ruined by the real spivs, the union shop stewards and conveners, with their insatiable demands for more and more unsustainable wage increases.

You can't be competitive with overseas manufacturing if you lose millions of man/hours every year to wildcat strikes, and unjustified walkouts.

After a while, the genuine grievances, which should have and would have been dealt with, were buried in a morass of Union generated confusion.

Wilson and Callaghan pandered to their masters, who supplied most of their funding. Heath had no chance with his lame duck government, and the unions ran riot through British manufacturing.

Business dwindled through the seventies, as sensible buyers went elsewhere.

That is when Maggie became PM, and if she hadn't Callaghan would certainly not have reversed the trend. It would simply have spiralled to destruction even faster. It had already gone far beyond the possibility of recovery.

My previous post and this one are both based on what I saw with my own eyes, and what I experienced in the workplace.

I once sat in a laboratory, in pitch darkness, with a bulb on the bench in front of me, and waited four unproductive hours for an electrician to come and replace the blown one in the light fitting.

I was not alled either to fit it, or to bring a desk lamp through from the next door office. "Union rules son! You'll 'ave 'em all out the gate".

Don T

Subject: RE: BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 05:48 AM

""Surely the point is to find a party that is closer to your ideals.""

No, sorry mate, but insisting on only voting for a party which shares your ideals is a bit like complaining that there's no work, after going to the job centre and finding they have no openings for neurosurgeons.

We have what we have. At the moment that is two Tory parties, one of which has proved itself the most inept and corrupt in our history, and before anybody gets the wrong idea, that party is New Labour.

Just look at its record.

1. An end to boom and bust?.......The biggest Boom ever, and all on tick, followed by the biggest Bust ever, still ongoing.
2. Interest and inflation rates?.......Inherited the lowest since the sixties, along with scads of dosh in the bank, and frittered the bloody lot away on tinkering with the margins of various problems, without solving any.
3. Gold Reserves?.......Sold off to bolster the excesses of the above, sold off moreover with gold at rock bottom prices.
4. Two Wars?.......Funny how they can always find the money for these, while soldiers die for lack of efficient body armour, helicopters, and vehicles which can protect against IEDs.

Now if all that is close to your ideals, go ahead and vote for them, or vote LibDem, and make certain that any hung parliament will be run by New Labour.

As for me, I'll recognise the possibly that the Conservatives are not the party of the eighties any more, and may do a much better job.

After all, on the evidence, they could hardly do any worse.

Get the mess sorted out and change the way New Labour operates toward the socialist party it pretends to be, then I'll vote according to my ideals, which are socialist in nature.

But I'm not dumb enough to want another five years of misery as a reward for sticking to my ideals.

I have voted Tory purely because there has never been a truly socialist Labour Party in my voting lifetime, and those genuine socialists who have tried to change that have always been pushed aside.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 05:27 AM

For as long this debate focuses on the past and reruns the miner's strike, maggie, wilson/callaghan then it's going nowhere. WE need to look forward not backwards, looking back tells us very lttle about what we need to do now.

It's thirteen years since a Tory government, nearly twenty since Maggie (this years first time voters won't even remember her) even further for the miner's strike, the winter of discontent et al. Todays world is very different as are the parties, I no longer recognise this Labour Party as the one I was once a member of, the Colonel Blimps in the Conservatives say the same thing (the true heir to Thatcher is probably UKIP).

I am still waiting for one of the parties to tell the truth about how much pain is going to be required to sort out the current mess and how they're going to stop the banks holding us to ransom again. That party will probably get my vote.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 04:57 AM

Talking of politics, has anybody else noticed the similarity between
Nigel Farage

and

Archie Andrews ?

Subject: RE: BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election
From: Stu
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 04:01 AM

"1. The wars?.....Not a Tory Decision"

But wholeheartedly supported by the tories, who weren't adverse to starting their own when in power.

"2. Global Capitalism (though, as I've said before, that is more properly called Corporatism)?..... Encouraged by New Labour in every way, up to, and including selling off Britain's gold reserves when gold was at its alltime lowest price."

Globalisation has largely taken root as the major economic force since Blair came to power in 1997. The tories played their part in this; Thatcher's monetarist policies and commitment to laissez-faire economics destroyed manufacturing industry in this country and paved the way for globalisation. I agree New Labour have carried the torch for Thatcher with aplomb, and I wouldn't vote for them anyway.


"3. Bailing out the banks..... Now that must surely have been the Tories pandering to big business?....Well, NO, it was Brown and New Labour."

This won't change under the tories and we al know it.


"4. The gap between Rich and Poor?.....That must be down to Cameron and the old Etonians.....Well, NO again! It's widening faster under New Labour than ever before."

Cameron's true constituency is the moneyed classes, old and new and that will not change post election. The tories were a nightmare in the eighties, they will be again if elected now. The do not care about working people.

Subject: RE: BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 03:49 AM

Has nobody worked out, that the real problem is that our sector of the world is in decline?

Has nobody realised what "Global Capitalism" really meant?

The money and the Capitalists have moved East, where there are new people and resources to exploit.

That is always how Capitalism has worked. Our lifestyle has become too expensive to be profitable.

Do you think it was simply greed which caused the financial crash? If you do, you are very naive, All the deregulation was encouraged by government to provide a perception of growth in the economy.

Politicians are not your friends, no matter how media friendly they may be.

Regarding the Iraq War.....of course it was Blair's War, he was a charismatic madman surrounded by sycophantic "jobsworths"....and with an electorate who longed to be proved right in choosing him.

As I've said before, if the Conservatives had been in power we would never have been in Iraq at all. Labour would have opposed it tooth and nail.
If we have to have these charades every four years, Labour should be the Party of opposition ....in power they are a worse danger to society than the Tories.

Subject: RE: BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election
From: The Barden of England
Date: 07 Apr 10 - 03:30 AM

Now where have I heard it before 'The extra penny on National Insurance will cost jobs - it's a Job Tax? Oh yes, that's the same as 'A national minimum wage will cost jobs! I just wonder how many jobs that's ACTUALLY cost?
I'll say it again - vote for concencus politics rather than the 2 party dictatorship we have at the moment. On saying that, I hope that the Scots and the Welsh help to put their spokes into the melting pot too.
John Barden

Subject: RE: BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 10:14 PM

Don, if you believe that about the miners' strike, you'll believe anything, but that evil woman attacked every ordinary working (and unwaged) person in the country. Elsewhere on here the evils of king coal are vividly exposed. Just part of her legacy was the destruction of actual manufacturing in this country and the handing of control and power to city spivs - and thus the recent economic problems. Another was to jettison those needing mental health care onto the streets. Another was a set of anti-union laws that allow employers to cartelise at the expense of the workers but deny workers the liberty to organise in their own defence. I cannot understand why you don't understand that she was all about taking money from your pocket and giving it to her chums.

Osborne has consistently said that the answer to the recession is to cut deeper and sooner - yet his only specific is a giveaway, an old fashioned election bribe on a doctrinaire anti-tax basis. Surely to God the previous two great recessions taught us that cuts make recessions worse but that tax and spend can at least alleviate them and at best cure them.

Subject: RE: BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election
From: Lox
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 09:21 PM

I think the Tories unworthy of you Don,

And I have a problem with this idea that "if the party who are supposed to be socialist aren't socialist enough then I'm going to vote conservative".

I've seen a few Americans on here saying the same thing.

It doesn't make sense.

Surely the point is to find a party that is closer to your ideals.

I like the Clegg/Cable Ticket, not because they are great statesmen, but because they are the least far away from where I stand.

Besides, I am allegedly a "liberal" after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 08:40 PM

""He can also play 3D chinese chess and skateboard at the same time, whilst simultaneously gently hatching out a sparrows egg with the gentle warmth of his hand.""

That is unworthy of you Lox. Whether you agree with me or not.

We are discussing a specific issue.

Osborne is not imposing the increase in National Insurance which Brown has announced, except on employees earning in excess of (as far as I recall) £150,000.

That is undisputed fact, which even Gordon Brown is not denying.

How he is going to pay for it is another matter, though I don't quite see the argument of how you pay for something you don't do.

The fact is that Brown has based his intended program (if he wins), at least partially on his much mentioned efficiency savings of 11 Billion.

Supposing he loses, Tory priorities may be different, and they will be in a position to use that 11 Billion as they wish.

It won't vanish if Brown loses, unless of course he has found some obliging Nigerian to help him transfer it to an untraceable account.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election
From: Lox
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 08:26 PM

"Osborne says "I don't want any more from you or your employer, unless you are wealthy, in which case you must pay extra"."

He can also play 3D chinese chess and skateboard at the same time, whilst simultaneously gently hatching out a sparrows egg with the gentle warmth of his hand.

Subject: RE: BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 08:00 PM

""Tony Blair depended on their support to get the UK to join the Iraq War he had promised Bush.""

Tony Blair's decision, backed by the Tories on the basis of the lies Blair told to Parliament and the people of this Nation
Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 07:57 PM

""Never mind me, the fact that Thatcher got old did not make her any better nor did it absolve her. She chose who to oppress and deserves retribution.""

Funny that. I was probably among the lowest earners in the country, and I didn't feel oppressed.

I suspect you refer to the miners, those deluded men who thought Arthur Scargill was the Messiah.

As far as I could see, the miner's strike was about Arthur making a name for himself, at the expense of his members and the country at large.

1. No company can afford to keep mines running when the cost of mining the coal is as much as, or more than, its sale value.
2. We were just starting to recover from the fiscal quagmire bequeathed by Wilson/Callaghan.
3. The pay rises Scargill was demanding would have jeopardised the viable pits, as well as the uneconomical.
4. An offer was made at the outset of the action, which was rejected, with derision, by Scargill.
5. The number of miners who did not join the strike, was an indication that Scargill got it wrong, an indication which he arrogantly chose to ignore.
6. At the end of a year he took his men back to work for exactly what they had been offered at the outset, but so much damage had been done that the mining industry never recovered.

Men died, some at the hands of police, some murdered by militant miners, and Scargill was every bit as much to blame as Thatcher.

I don't see anyone making the same kind of remarks about him.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 07:55 PM

The wars?.....Not a Tory Decision Of coursec it was.   They backed them to the hilt.

Tony Blair depended on their support to get the UK to join the Iraq War he had promised Bush. 139 Labour MPs voted against the war in the crucial debate on March 18th, along with the LibDems and others, including a handful of maverick Tories.
................................

I see they've now dropped the attempt to put a referendum on electoral reform in place for after the elction. Without that there's no realistic prospect of getting rid of the incompetent bastards who make up all the main parties.

Vote for a hung parliamet, which in practice is likely to mean vote Labour in most places in England.

Subject: RE: BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 07:39 PM

""1. But Osborne will give less than the full benefit to those earning less than £20,000, and none to the unwaged.""

Please explain this gibberish Richard. Osborne is not giving anything to anyone.

He is simply not going to take anything away from anyone except the rich by following Brown's job destroying extra tax.

Now I thought that you wanted the less well off to benefit at the expense of the wealthy (something I too strongly support). Now Osborne does it and suddenly the tune changes.

As to those earning under £20,000, and the unwaged, the changes in taxation won't affect them whoever wins the election.

Brown says "I want more of your money, and your employer's too".
Osborne says "I don't want any more from you or your employer, unless you are wealthy, in which case you must pay extra".

So what exactly is your beef?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 07:24 PM

""Yet we witter on about who's worse the Tories or the Tories.
You know who's really the worst....we are!""

Fine Ake. A truly masterly display of fuile bile. You should maybe consider starting your own party, and running for PM yourself.

"The Throwing Our Toys Out of the Pram, and Screaming Party".

Sounds good, doesn't it. But when you've achieved the state of anarchy required for the destruction of Capitalism, the first to go against the wall will be us old buggers who are no longer productive.

You see, the kind of folks who rule after a revolution don't help any but themselves, so if you can't grab, and hold, a piece of land, you'll starve. How many of us can milk a cow, or plough a patch of soil?

I doubt your convictions are strong enough to make that sacrifice for the strongest thug in the area.

NO MATEY!

The ones we have, are all we have , and we'd better start making sensible choices.

You told us in no uncertain terms that New Labour were a complete failure:-

""The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan...The effects of global Capitalism
on workers and manufacturing industry...The collapse of the capitalist banking system(shamefully being bailed out by our taxes, simply to "reset" the failed system)...The ever increasing gap between rich and poor"".

1. The wars?.....Not a Tory Decision
2. Global Capitalism (though, as I've said before, that is more properly called Corporatism)?..... Encouraged by New Labour in every way, up to, and including selling off Britain's gold reserves when gold was at its alltime lowest price.
3. Bailing out the banks..... Now that must surely have been the Tories pandering to big business?....Well, NO, it was Brown and New Labour.
4. The gap between Rich and Poor?.....That must be down to Cameron and the old Etonians.....Well, NO again! It's widening faster under New Labour than ever before.

Do you know what. When you see what they've done with the fiscal conditions they inherited from the Conservatives, you realise that New Labour have come closer to bankrupting this country than six years of fighting the Nazis.

"Stick with me. I know exactly how I got us into this mess, so I'm the best man to get us out of it".....Gordon Brown

The lunatics want another go at running the asylum, and there are people out there gullible enough to believe it would be a good idea.

"Hey Mr Fox, can you look after the henhouse till I get back".

And you lot think I'm Naive.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 07:02 PM

Don: -

1. But Osborne will give less than the full benefit to those earning less than £20,000, and none to the unwaged.

2. See 1.

3. Because they cover the same ground as the £11 billion. There is no extra 6 billion.

Never mind me, the fact that Thatcher got old did not make her any better nor did it absolve her. She chose who to oppress and deserves retribution.

Let rat-face Cameron and his cronies in and as Brown warns you will be throwing it all away. Don T - Don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 06:44 PM

""And where they can save money from economies (economies already built into New Labour plans) they plan to use it to fund tax cuts for industry (well NI cuts for those earning over £20,000 and upwards, to benefit the rich owners of industry).""

Richard, I know you have a sharper mind than that.

1. £20000 is barely into the middle class salary range, and people living on that money are stretched to cope.

2. The reversal does not apply to the rich, who will still have to pay the increase.

3. If Brown can find 11 Billion in "efficiency" savings, why is it unlikely that Cameron can find 6 Billion.

As for your wish for Thatcher, nobody deserves that, and the fact that you insist on it says more about you than about her.

If what you say about her were totally true (which it isn't), what makes you any better, if you don't have any more human feeling than you attribute to her.

When I listen to you, a lawyer, spouting that kind of bile, I am forced to the conclusion that were you ever in a position of power, you would be worse than Danton and Robespierre.

Worse because anybody earning more than fifteen thousand a year seems to fit your peculiar concept of an Old Etonian Aristo.

For those who want to pigeon hole me as a true blue, can't see past the veneer, Cameron enthusiast, I refer you to my earlier post.

I said clearly, and I meant it, that if there ever actually were a socialist Labour Party, I would consider voting for it.

There being no such choice, I prefer the real Conservatives to Mr Bean and his "Smoke and Mirrors Theatre of the Absurd".

I judge Cameron, at least in part, by the number of old school Tories and ex Thatcherites who are pissed of with him.

Don T.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 04:58 PM

Don't care who wins (well mybe :))

I've tickets for Show of Hands in York that night! Could be a classic.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 03:58 PM

Yes.....We have much to learn from primitive societies.

Subject: RE: BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 03:38 PM

Some primitive societies, used to sacrifice their leaders to the gods if they failed to deliver!

Subject: RE: BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 02:45 PM

A pox on the lot of them!

I am truly amazed that we can get so wound up over electing such a parcel of rogues.

How much does it take to make the UK electorate say ...enough!

I know the total number of votes keeps falling, but the ability of the "chattering classes" to suspend reality dumbfounds me.

Is Cameron a posh, Eton educated mummy's boy?
Is Brown a psychologically defective Maciavellian snake?
Is there a case to be made for the castration of all politicians?
Yes Yes Yes.

In my whole lifetime, I have never seen our politicians and our political system so exposed for what they really are......a fucking sick joke!

The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan...The effects of global Capitalism
on workers and manufacturing industry...The collapse of the capitalist banking system(shamefully being bailed out by our taxes, simply to "reset" the failed system)...The ever increasing gap between rich and poor....The expenses scandal, which strikes right at the roots of how all the rest of us contribute to society.... need I go on? Why do we allow the establishment to piss all over us!

Yet we witter on about who's worse the Tories or the Tories.
You know who's really the worst....we are!

Subject: RE: BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 01:52 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLIcC6wzyns

It's a great pity that poor old Sutch is not around anymore to add a bit of humour to the election proceedings - great record this from 49 years ago!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 01:12 PM

Don't listen to those who say that a vote for one of the smaller parties is a wasted vote.
This is crap, and apart from the pleasure of voting for what you believe in, your vote, cancels out one for those you don't want to get in.

Subject: RE: BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election
From: Stu
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 01:02 PM

"Bottom line. However much you may want David Cameron to be an old style Tory (and every left winger wants exactly that), he just is not."

For argument's sake let's say Don is correct in his assessment of Cameron. The problem is the tory party at grass roots level is not made up of David Cameron's, it's made up of the same people who selected the previous MP's and are old style true blues.

Cameron's ability to fool people is impressive, although in reality an over-compliant media is also partly responsible for encouraging this cult of personality. Don't be fooled - it's Cameron's only chance of winning and even in his speech this morning to the party faithful he couldn't resist "another five years of Gordon Brown" as if he was the only person in government (I also especially enjoyed the old tory clarion call to "the great ignored", whom you can guarantee will still be greatly ignored post election, more so by Cameron et al than anyone because if you don't have cash, you will not matter).

Subject: RE: BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 12:17 PM

Don: it's less than she caused a lot of other people. She made war on the workers of this country. Watch out, they will do it again. They promise us greater and faster cuts - result, greater and faster double-dip. And where they can save money from economies (economies already built into New Labour plans) they plan to use it to fund tax cuts for industry (well NI cuts for those earning over £20,000 and upwards, to benefit the rich owners of industry).

Subject: RE: BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election
From: Lox
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 11:34 AM

I would like to retract my comments concerning media charm.

Osborne has none.

Subject: RE: BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election
From: Lox
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 11:33 AM

Don,

You are generally a sharp critic.

I'd love to have your blue specs so I could appreciate Cameron the way you do, but being in possesion of nothing more than a pair of sharp eyes, I am unable to ignore Camerons smarm, insincerity and utter lack of substance.

As for Osborne ... if howard had something of the night about him, Osborne inhabits a place where things writhe and slither and leaves only to feed.

Neither Cameron nor Osborne is remotely as direct or honest as you like to give them credit for, and whats more, their answers to questions are generally empty of any content, being mere sweet smelling puffs of media charm.

I won't be voting Labour, but I would rather them to the crowd you are advocating.

Subject: RE: BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 11:14 AM

The problem with UK government, and the choosing thereof, is that so many voters decide based on the wrong premises.

"I'm a working man, so I vote Labour"......No, you don't! You vote for the name on the tin, without reference to the nature, or the quality, of the contents. There is no labour Party. If there were, I might well vote for it.

"I won't vote for a bunch of Thatcherites".....In this you are correct, since there are no real Thatcherites standing for positions of power in the Tory Party.

"I don't want to be ruled by "Old Etonian Aristocrats""....Shades of the French Revolution. How many Etonians are from Aristocracy, and how many are sons of Builders, Taxi Drivers, School Heads, etc. etc. Eton places are decided these days by ability to pay, not by accident of birth.
Somebody else can do the research, but I'm confident it will surprise the blinkered DesFarges.

Really watch and listen when Cameron is interviewed. It will educate you.

When asked a question, he will either answer that question, or state that he does not have an answer.

Contrast that with what you have seen and heard from Blair/Brown and their minions. Invariably they slide by the question and make whatever point it is they wish to emphasise. It happens again and again.

You may say that Cameron is giving the answer the interviewer wants to hear, and you would be wrong. Interviewers thrive on forcing admissions from politicians.

A direct answer to the question takes the wind right out of their sails. Watch and listen to how often Cameron leaves a journalist (who has all his clever techniques short circuited) floundering for something to ask.

Bottom line. However much you may want David Cameron to be an old style Tory (and every left winger wants exactly that), he just is not.

This country faces ruin from another five years of Gordon Brown, and half the population will not even rationally consider the only realistic alternative.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Starting gun fired: UK General Election
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Apr 10 - 10:41 AM

""It's really as simple as that.""

Says the man who wishes a frail old woman "a long and painful death".

Simple is the word.

Don T.