BS: We have shot an amazing number of people

Subject: BS: We have shot an amazing number of people
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 06:55 PM

"We have shot an amazing number of people, but to my knowledge, none has ever proven to be a threat."

--General Stanley A McChrystal, in reference to people shot and killed at checkpoints in Afghanistan.


http://chris-floyd.com/component/content/article/1-latest-news/1949-an-unaccustomed-truth-american-commander-admits-afghan-atrocities.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/27/world/asia/27afghan.html

Subject: RE: BS: We have shot an amazing number of people
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 08:11 PM

Interesting. However - at least, officially - we have shot and killed "30 Afghans and wounded 80 others since last summer"; let's say, in 9 months. Too many, obviously- but averages out at fewer than four killed per month and fewer than 10 wounded per month.

That hardly qualifies as "slaughter".

My question: How many before last summer?

I know nothing of journalist Chris Floyd other than what I read a few minutes ago but his writing in another column (quote):The sad, degraded, destructive state of the "left" in modern America is clearly shown by...(enquote) does not quite clearly show he has no axe to grind.

.

Subject: RE: BS: We have shot an amazing number of people
From: pdq
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 08:26 PM

In the United States, police shoot and kill about 200 people each year.

This is just by authorized firearms, not choking or other causes of death.

Saddam Hussein may have killed as many as 100,000 people per year.

Mexican drug cartels have killed nearly 20,000 people in the last four years alone.

Pol Pot killed 1.4 million people in his time as Cambodia's dictator.

Mugabe was a bit of a creep too.

It's a violent World and it's unlikely that anybody is going to get out of it alive.

Subject: RE: BS: We have shot an amazing number of people
From: Emma B
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 08:33 PM

Unfortunately 'there is no single official figure for the overall number of civilians killed by the war in Afghanistan since 2001, but estimates for specific years or periods have been published by a number of independent organizations'


The United Nations Assistance Mission in Afghanistan (UNAMA) was established on 28 March, 2002 by UN Security Council resolution 1401, its original mandate was to support the Bonn Agreement.

It attributed 596 Afghan civilian deaths as having been caused by international-led military forces in 2009, representing about a quarter of the 2,412 Afghan civilian deaths it recorded as having been caused by the war in 2009 and representing a jump of 14% over the number killed in 2008.

In 186 (8%) of the deaths, UNAMA was unable to clearly attribute the cause to any one side

UNAMA - Afghanistan, Annual report on protection of civilians in armed conflict, 2009

These figures do not cover any indirect deaths of Afghan civilians as a consequence of displacement, starvation, disease, exposure, lack of medical treatment, etc resulting from the war.

Subject: RE: BS: We have shot an amazing number of people
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 08:40 PM

But, Emma B, you are escalating the subject beyond the beginning premise. I fully agree that "we" have killed and adversely impacted hundreds of thousands of people in the invasion and wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. This subject, however, is confined to checkpoints and random acts of violence.

Subject: RE: BS: We have shot an amazing number of people
From: pdq
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 09:01 PM

Mullah Omar's lifetime death count is listed as 400,000.

That include his exploits from 1986-1994 as well as the 1994-2001 period when he was leader of Afghanistan. He and his Taliban are not missed by the people of Afghanistan.

Subject: RE: BS: We have shot an amazing number of people
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 09:59 PM

How can they miss them when they're not gone?

"Despite its ouster, however, remnants of the Taliban have maintained influence in rural regions south and east of Kabul. The group is known for having provided safe haven to Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda as well as for its rigid interpretation of Islamic law, under which it publicly executed criminals and outlawed the education of women. Though the group has been out of power for several years, it remains a cultural force in the region that operates parallel governance structures aimed at undermining the U.S.-backed central government. Clashes between Taliban-linked fighters and coalition forces increased in the first half of 2008 and continued in 2009, highlighting the Taliban's resurgence and complicating efforts by NATO and U.S. forces to stabilize the country. The Pakistani army, meanwhile, is tackling its own Taliban insurgency."

Subject: RE: BS: We have shot an amazing number of people
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 10:01 PM

I think the most important part of those articles is the fact that even our military can now see that these killings are fueling the insurgencies. They're making the situation in Afghanistan worse rather than better.

Subject: RE: BS: We have shot an amazing number of people
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Mar 10 - 10:29 PM

Ebbie, there were 41 checkpoint killings in 2008 and 36 in 2009. With the number of US troops in Afghanistan more than doubling, more deaths are, unfortunately, inevitable.

Subject: RE: BS: We have shot an amazing number of people
From: DougR
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 03:27 PM

Carol C: "They're making the situation in Afghanistan worse rather than better."

Perhaps you should write our president. After all, he's the Commander in Chief.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: We have shot an amazing number of people
From: Amos
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 03:40 PM

The most remarkable thing is to hear ageneral over the whole theater speak so frankly. I kind of doubt the W. DOD would have ever done that.

A

Subject: RE: BS: We have shot an amazing number of people
From: gnu
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 05:12 PM

And with some amazing shots. Canucks snipers hold the world record(s) for killing peeps in Afghanistan they didn't know (and never will), never met (ditto), haven't any idea if they are the enemy (DITTO), at amazing distances. Bravo, Stephen Harper, you.... arrrgggghhhhh

And, when Clinton asked Stevie1 a day or so ago for more troops and a committment to stay longer, he said no... we have a date for withdrawl.

A date? A date? WTF is a date? Hey let's make the killing stop today. That'a a date as good as any other. HTF does he sleep at night?

Sorry. I know I have been a hawk at times in the past, for false reasons... mostly immaturatey I suppose. But I have been sickened and saddened by what has transpired since Garge and the old guard... oh, nevermind. I gotta take a blood pressure pill in 50 minutes.

Subject: RE: BS: We have shot an amazing number of people
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 08:44 PM

"We have shot an amazing number of people, but to my knowledge, none has ever proven to be a threat."

WOW! It's taken so long to realise that! ...

I watched 'The Invasion of Iraq" live on TV 'as it happened' for days ....

I watched a bunch of scared trigger happy Yanks blow away a car following them that got too close when their truck suddenly slowed.... and I saw the hysteria when they observed off to their right 'green tracer' arcing up into the sky - so they immediately started shooting over there too. You see, THEY used 'red tracer' and the enemy used 'green tracer' haha - so that PROVED that they were ENEMIES... pity that the troops were wearing 'night vision goggles' that showed every light source as green....

I never heard about THAT friendly fire incident....


I also haven't seen any more such live streaming of military slaughter recently - wonder why?

Subject: RE: BS: We have shot an amazing number of people
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 10:04 PM

Fooles, unless you got a lot different footage in Ozland than we did in the States, your perception seems flawed to me.

Subject: RE: BS: We have shot an amazing number of people
From: Sawzaw
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 10:17 PM

Why doesn't Obama, the Commander In Cheif, pull out and end the holocaust?


The tragic slaughter of innocent civilian men women and children.

I haven't seen his name appear anywhere in this thread. Instead I see the killing attributed to the military, generals, they, yanks, snipers as if they are operating on their own and Obama has nothing to do with the bloodletting.

I suppose "they" write their own orders.

Does he get a double standard pass? Youbetcha!

Subject: RE: BS: We have shot an amazing number of people
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 10:18 PM

I already have written to our president, the Commander-in-Chief, DougR. More than once. Remember that if you're ever tempted to accuse everyone who voted for Obama of not ever being willing to criticize him.

Subject: RE: BS: We have shot an amazing number of people
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 10:22 PM

Obama gets criticized a lot here in the Mudcat because of his escalation of the war in Afghanistan. Once again, you are being very selective in what you're willing to see and pay attention to, and what you're not.

Subject: RE: BS: We have shot an amazing number of people
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 10:24 PM

By the way, if I wasn't willing to criticize Obama for what's happening in Afghanistan, I wouldn't have started this thread! Geeze... get a couple of brain cells, why don't you. And then try rubbing them together. You might get a spark, and then you will no longer be in the dark.

Subject: RE: BS: We have shot an amazing number of people
From: Lox
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 11:12 PM

"unless you got a lot different footage in Ozland than we did in the States,"

I think we probably got more here in the UK too.

Subject: RE: BS: We have shot an amazing number of people
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 12:06 AM

Video of US forces shooting up cars in scenarios like what Foolestroupe described (and killing everyone in the car) are available for viewing on YouTube. As are vidoes of US forces (and also some UK forces) doing all kinds of reprehensible things.

Subject: RE: BS: We have shot an amazing number of people
From: Sawzaw
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 01:21 AM

Right here in this thread all of the criticism is directed elsewhere as I pointed out.

Obama's name did not appear anywhere in this thread until I put it here.

Like I said before you are giving a pass to Obama.

I am sure your letter was presented to him and action was taken.

"Video of US forces shooting up cars"

You mean forces commanded by Obama or just forces with a mind of their own on a rampage?

Those Drones killing people in Pakistan where we are not even at war. are they just running around loose and killing people at random or are the strikes called in through a chain of command?

The supplemental spending request also points towards the increased use of the MQ - 1 Predator and the MQ-9 Reaper drones in the war. Obama seeks $57.4 million to acquire 742 Predator Hellfire missiles and $196 million for ten new MQ-9 Reapers.

Funding is included to upgrade the MQ-1 and MQ-9 systems in order that a second remote split operations site can be established to control the drones. This second site is necessary since the current site is reaching its operational capacity for the control of the increasing drone flights.

Subject: RE: BS: We have shot an amazing number of people
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 02:54 AM

"We have shot an amazing number of people, but to my knowledge, none has ever proven to be a threat."

--General Stanley A McChrystal, in reference to people shot and killed at checkpoints in Afghanistan.

Poor choice of words by the General, but I know what he is trying to say and I would like to know the exact context in which his statement was made.

"We have shot an amazing number of people, but to my knowledge, none subsequently proved to be a threat."

Have potential suicide bombers been stopped at Check-Points? To my certain knowledge yes they have. Have potential suicide bombers been killed at Check-Points? To my certain knowledge yes they have.

36 civilians were shot in Check-Point incidents in 2009; 41 in 2008. The article states that since last June to date there have been 95 incidents in which 30 people lost their lives.

The highest figure put on casualties since October 2001 stands at 32,969. Just putting this figure into prespective when the Khalq faction of the communist PDPA mounted their bloody coup to take over Afghanistan in April 1978, between that date and October 1978 the Khalq faction of the PDPA had murdered 38,000 political opponents, tribal leaders, teachers and village mullahs.

Overall somewhere between 75% and 79% of civilian deaths in Afghanistan are due to insurgent activity (Car bombs, suicide bombings, IED's, direct attacks on the civil population and punishment/reprisal killings) It is to reduce this level of violence against the civilian population that Check-Points are set up and manned.

Last year in Afghanistan 2,412 civilians were killed, 596 were killed by ISAF/ASF forces (359 died as result of airstrikes; 201 in cross-fire/combat operations; 36 at Check-Points). So 1.5% of civilians killed in Afghanistan are killed in Check-Point incidents, How much larger would the number of Afghans killed be if there were no Check-Points? How many more suicide bombers or car bombs would get through?

The number of incidents has diminished and they will continue to go down as more and more of these Check-Points are manned by ASF as opposed to ISAF/US Troops. There are rules for approaching such Check-Points and it is wise to follow them, visual and verbal warnings are given, should they fail warning shots are fired. In the case of convoys, particularly US convoys, these are just not approached at all even by other ISAF Units.

Subject: RE: BS: We have shot an amazing number of people
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 03:12 AM

Ebbie -

the Commercial TV Aussies stations went crazy and we had what seemed like endless footage for days (what I mentioned was after Baghdad was entered, and was repeated several times) - much more than you guys got. Of course, when the Aussie ski mountain fell on top of the chalets, we got about 2-3 days non-stop of THAT too.... sigh....

Subject: RE: BS: We have shot an amazing number of people
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 09:32 AM

I haven't pointed any criticism at anyone in this thread, Sawzaw. I just commented on what McChrystal has said. I think it's pretty newsworthy.

Subject: RE: BS: We have shot an amazing number of people
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 09:37 AM

And yes, I am just as critical of Obama for what he is doing in other countries as I was of Bush, and I have said so on other threads. I even started a thread just for the purpose of criticizing something Obama and his administration were doing a few months ago. I could be wrong, but I don't think I ever started a thread just to criticize Bush.

You need to make sure you are thoroughly familiar with people's posting histories before pointing fingers and making a fool of yourself like you're doing now.

Subject: RE: BS: We have shot an amazing number of people
From: Stu
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 10:10 AM

"Poor choice of words by the General, but I know what he is trying to say"

Alternatively an accurate choice of words from (who I would think you'd agree) a man competent at his job whom is used to clearly and succinctly relaying precise orders to his minions.

What he is trying to say is he personally is amazed by the number of people his forces have shot who, as far as his (presumably accurate, otherwise it's worthless) intelligence can tell have represented no threat to anyone whatsoever.

or

Lots of dead people who shouldn't really be dead.

Simple really, don't you think?

Subject: RE: BS: We have shot an amazing number of people
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 10:28 AM

Yes, to echo Sugarfoot Jack's comment, I think this part should be emphasized..

but to my knowledge, none has ever proven to be a threat


And the part where McChrystal says that these killings are fueling the insurgency and making things more difficult for US forces rather than better.

Subject: RE: BS: We have shot an amazing number of people
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 11:42 AM

Oh dead simple Sugarfoot, if the Taleban packed it in tomorrow nobody would be getting killed at all.

Subject: RE: BS: We have shot an amazing number of people
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 11:54 AM

If the Taliban packed it in tomorrow, the other warlords in Afghanistan would still be killing people, including the warlords the governments of the US and UK support.

Subject: RE: BS: We have shot an amazing number of people
From: Stu
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 12:01 PM

"Oh dead simple Sugarfoot, if the Taleban packed it in tomorrow nobody would be getting killed at all."

That isn't what he was talking about, not what he said and not what he meant.

Subject: RE: BS: We have shot an amazing number of people
From: Riginslinger
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 12:05 PM

"We have shot an amazing number of people..."


          But there's still an amazing number of people left to shoot.

Subject: RE: BS: We have shot an amazing number of people
From: Teribus
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 05:07 PM

Pure supposition on your part CarolC

Subject: RE: BS: We have shot an amazing number of people
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 05:19 PM

And what you said isn't? hahahahaha...

Subject: RE: BS: We have shot an amazing number of people
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 12:26 PM

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article25107.htm

Subject: RE: BS: We have shot an amazing number of people
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 07:00 PM

And of course CarolC, those who predicted that this is just what would happen, based on past experiences, were howled down as ignorant trouble making anti-establishment pinko commies...

Subject: RE: BS: We have shot an amazing number of people
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 07:53 PM

Not by me, Foolestroup. I was predicting it myself.

Subject: RE: BS: We have shot an amazing number of people
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 08:04 PM

Didn't say you did - and i could have ranted on for ages... :-)