Folksong-when performance/when political rally

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Stringsinger
Date: 14 Apr 10 - 01:56 PM

Dick,

Tried to get that song but there was an obstacle course attached to it. Something
about confirming a birthdate.

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 03:26 PM

Just out of morbid curiosity (and a pathological tendency to avoid doing the damned Income Tax, despite the looming deadline), I did some checking into past postings.

It looks like Conrad has been honking essentially the same theme song for some years now. Which is to say, "You people are doing it all wrong!!"

For example, back in 2004, he's griping that on a CD that Bruce Springsteen recorded as a tribute to Pete Seeger, Springsteen is not singing the songs exactly the way Pete sings them. Having not heard the CD myself, I don't know how large the "discrepancy' between Springsteen's and Seeger's performances are, but—

Let me put it this way:    I've learned a whole pot-full of songs from the records of Richard Dyer-Bennet. There's no way in hell that I can sing them the same way that Dyer-Bennet does because he is a light tenor and I am a bass-baritone. And since I have to sing the songs in different keys, this, of course, requires me to work out different accompaniments on the guitar. And although I will borrow (steal) ideas from Dyer-Bennet, they do tend to come out differently in different keys.

I have also learned songs from the recordings of Burl Ives, Ed McCurdy, Andrew Rowan Summers (who accompanies himself on a dulcimer), Susan Reed (Irish harp), Cynthia Gooding, Frank Warner, John Runge, Guy Carawan, Joan Baez, Gordon Bok, Ed Trickett (need I go on?), and, yes, Pete Seeger. And from some field recordings. Not to mentions songs that I've learned directly from people such as Walt Robertson, Merritt Herring, Bob Nelson, Patti McLaughlin, and Helen Thompson.

I've also learned a lot of songs from song books, such as Carl Sandburg's American Songbag, miscellaneous books by the Lomaxes, The Viking Book of Folk Songs, Evelyn Kendrick Wells' The Ballad Tree, all in all, several shelves full of books, some quite academic, others compilations of songs sung by Peggy Seeger, Theodore Bikel, Judy Collins, Ewan MacColl, and on and on, world without end, Amen!

And other than the words and the dots, these books, although they may give some background on the songs, don't say much about how one should sing them. So I'm pretty much left to my own judgment and taste.

I'm sure there are vast numbers of singers of folk songs out there who built their repertoires the same way I did.

And according to Conrad, it looks like we're ALL doing it all wrong! Including—as of recent threads—Pete Seeger!

Now, we're not supposed to sing songs that have a viewpoint or take a position for fear of turning a performance into a "political rally." Or if we should happen to sing a song that expresses an opinion, we are morally bound to invite someone who takes the opposite view on whatever the matter it happens to be to come up on stage and express their view!

For example, should you have the bad judgment to sing a song that advocates putting an end to war, or to racial prejudice, you must let someone come up and sing a song advocating war or racial hatred.

(ARE there any such songs?)

Otherwise, a concert, a coffeehouse gig, an open mike night, or a sit-around-with-a-few-friends-and-swap-songs evening somehow becomes a "political rally."

Okay, suppose you do sing a song with political content. And you do invite anyone with an opposing view to come up and sing something in rebuttal. In your effort to be "fair and balanced," you may be setting the stage for a bipartisan riot!!

Way to go, there, Conrad!!

Well . . . back to the bloody taxes.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 03:02 PM

Makes sense to me, Spaw - but only if their yaks are allowed in as well.

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: catspaw49
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 11:48 AM

Conrad has won me over. I am now out fighting for those he says deserve accessibility.

Conrad, if you read the "Mudcat Update" thread you will see that I am forceful in saying we need accessibility for trans-sexual cross dressing Albanian hat blockers doing nude Morris Dancing while smeared in yak dung and Marmite.

I hope the rest of you can see the sense in this as well.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 11:31 AM

One wonders how this barely-dressed, unwashed, poverty stricken pack rat ever got a college degree without learning of the existence of the comma.

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: theleveller
Date: 13 Apr 10 - 03:18 AM

Totally missing the point yet again, Conrad. I agree with Ron - no point in getting into a battle of wits with an unarmed man.

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 10:28 PM

That the best you got? You can't defend your position against the questions being asked or the reasoning being presented to - so you just repeat yourself? What next, holding your breath until you turn blue?

We've heard your OPINION Conrad. No one is agreeing with you. Not much left to say is there, unless you want to counter the points instead of resorting to rhetoric.

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 10:04 PM

Ok if you let everyone in it is performance

If you keep it to your own view it is a political rally

Actually the song doesnt matter its the open forum. And the setting of the song.

If you sing a song and spend most of thetime talking politics it is taking over the folk stagefor a political rally. You can sing any song you want and if you spend most of the time talking not about the song but about moving to action then it is a rally simple....

If you limite the songs to those you agree with you are also making a political decision if you refrain from so doing then others have a chance to use the same forum which is good.

There is no song that you have to fear.

Conrad

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 03:34 PM

My 19-year old son just made a statement to someone who said that they weren't interested in politics, "why not, politics is life?". He's right, of course. The vast majority of folk music is about politics because it's about life. Folk music has always been about radical politics - the politics of the (often disenfranchised) common people with a grievance against the ruling classes. To say that folk music is conservative is a total distortion of history as anyone who has studied the history of radical politics (at least in the UK) will know. Read Hill. Read Tawney. Read any of the books of my son's degree course in History and Politics.

So, every time we sing a folk songs we are, in a way, making a political statement - about the lives of the people who created the music. So every folk song performance is a political rally - and long may it be so.

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 03:26 PM

But nevertheless an artifact of our times, and as such worthy of collection.

Good point and I agree with the sentiment, Dick. As a social comment it is vital that these things are recorded. But surely the line should be drawn at performing them to incite hatred of immigrants - Which it is obviouly intended for. Or am I missing something?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 02:43 PM

Frank-
I agree. But do you think that applies to things like "New Leather Jacket"? (If you haven't heard it, go to YouTube)

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 01:29 PM

Since when a conservative program on BBC become an accurate defining arbiter of folk music?


By censoring political expression through music, you are trampling on freedom.

Says Conrad, "The reaction of the far right to the dominance of folk music by the left and liberal is obviously justifed."

How is it justified? They use techniques of intimidation and propaganda toward this "justice". In the late Forties and through the Fifties, it was called "red-baiting". Now,
other labels are used, many of them racist.

Conrad doesn't understand that the rise of the Folk Revival came from participants who were active in the Left Wing Movement. Wall Street and McCarthy weren't interested. If it wasn't for the Left, folk music as we know it in America would not have survived on a popular level. Linkletter and the Hootenanny Show and the commercial folk groups actually co-opted folk music for financial gain.

There is no Left-wing or Right-wing folk music really. There are just songs that represent all kinds of ideas. The Fox News "Fair and Balanced" approach is specious. To censor
anyone on a political level be it the Dixie Chicks or anyone else is repellant to American democracy.

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: theleveller
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 04:23 AM

Art brut, eh? And there was me thinking it was pretentious, exhibitionist, self-obsessed twat art. I stand corrected :-)

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 12:34 AM

"When is a folk music performance a performance and when does it become a political rally?"

In the Philippines? There IS no difference....

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 12:09 AM

"Some songs are made unwelcome and that is not right."
You keep making statments like this. Please give an example.

"Songs should be presented in an environment where they can be viewed as art without being extended by political statements."
Why??? You make this sound as this is the only way songs should be presented. You completely miss the history and reason for the songs existence.

"In a recent radio program on the bbc it was recognized thoroughly that the folk music movement of the 60s and 50s was co opted (I believe that was the term) by the liberal left."
IF that is the case - so what? IF you look at folk music from the perspective of an ethnomusicologist, the music exists to suit the purposes of the community. YOU CANNOT CHANGE THE WAY A CULTURE DEVELOPS THEIR MUSIC. Simple fact.   You play ignorant to the fact that the folk revival had roots in a conservative movement, and the fact that it evolved with a liberal bent is merely the reaction of the culture and the times.   YOU CANNOT CHANGE HISTORY.

"it would be a good idea to keep the folk music world as open politically to differences as it is to different cultures."
You fail to recognize that folk music DOES recognize different cultures. Perhaps it is time for YOU to realize that there are different cultures that do not think the way they do, and you cannot alter their music.

"After all go back far enough in any culture and you will find something that distresses you. If we can have cultural diversity represented by flawed humans we can have political diversity as well."
There you go again - twisting reality for your own purpose.   Of course you will find something that distresses you in any culture! There is political diversity.

The biggest mistake in your entire way of thinking is that you fail to recognize that PROTEST music is about PROTESTING. In order to PROTEST, you have got to have a reason. IF you have a reason, then you already have an opposing opinion. You entire argument crumbles on the fact that you fail to recognize the folk music community arose because of the very repression of ideas and cultural diversity that you are attempting to claim they now ignore. That is pure bullshit. If you have an opinion, put it in song. If people do not support it, that is not the fault of the culture - IT IS THE CULTURE!!!

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 11:43 PM

Some songs are made unwelcome and that is not right.
Songs should be presented in an environment where they can be viewed as art without being extended by political statements. No group no matter what people think of them should be made welcome and where necessary affirmitive action should be taken to make sure the imbalnces of the past do not occur. Active recruitment of a wide range of musicians and songs should be pursued.

In a recent radio program on the bbc it was recognized thoroughly that the folk music movement of the 60s and 50s was co opted (I believe that was the term) by the liberal left. This has to be undone or at least actions should be taken to make sure that this perception is destroyed. No you don't have to but it would be a good idea to keep the folk music world as open politically to differences as it is to different cultures.
After all go back far enough in any culture and you will find something that distresses you. If we can have cultural diversity represented by flawed humans we can have political diversity as well.

The reaction of the far right to the dominance of folk music by the left and liberal is obviously justifed. If this dominance did not exist then these people would be inside the forum working together rather than feeling locked out by a monopoly. Some cause for the atmosphere of dissent can be found within the folk community.

Conrad

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 08:45 PM

"Are you going to stop singing any catholic song, irish catholic songs, hymns from the catholic church, ave maria etc.....now that the word is out that internationally and as a trend the church has condoned and covered up child molestation?

The Jewish people in Jerusalem stoned to death St. Stephen the first martyr of the church. Not exactly a moral act in your book....Shall we all eliminate jewish songs and music."


Conrad, no one - other than yourself - has asked for eliminate of ANY song. There is a huge difference between "singing" as a means of entertainment and personal expression and the study of history.

Your analogy about the Catholic Church and the Jewish religion makes very little sense.   Show me songs that promote the crimes that you mention? Those crimes are not representative of the goals and teaching of either culture.   It would be like saying we won't sing German songs because of what the Nazi's have done.

NO one is promoting banning. There are appropriate places for the study and collection and there are improper use of these tools.

You are completely playing spin doctor here and trying to twist analogies and philosophies. It is not working. Face it, you have no one buying your brand of B.S.

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 08:32 PM

My position on art exactly. I put things together in a way that pleases me. I never called myself an artist until people came up and told me that I had created art.

I started out by covering a car with bumper stickers. A response to children vandalizing my broken down car with a sticker. I did not scold them I just got even by adding a few of my own. The car was repaired and it went through several phases or concepts eventually being invited to appear at large local art shows.

I have always been driven by the effect of my work upon others. Generally I am working alone in my home office still sort of taking care of my child which I have had responsibility for for almost 21 years. As I created art people stopped by and talked, they smiled and complemented me I moved on to do more and more with it.

I drive my art daily as we have no plain cars at all. After driving art one is so impressed with the change in the world it accomplishes that one would never go back to plain.

My goal is not self promotion but convincing others to exercise their freedom and drive art. That is my message when I park on exhibit at schools and festivals. Other cartists have criticized me for this- what if everyone did it we would not be special? I never wanted to be special just to help people discover the wonder of it all.

I have taken the same path with music and costume art and my art environment. I do it as a lifeway. My particular path I encourage others to spend some time on it from time to time but there are many equally good paths out there. Politics creeps into the artcar world from time to time. The houston orange show parade where I won first prize in my daily driver category, has a good number of political entries each year. The politics is so one sided on the left or liberal end that I don't think anyone from the right or conservative side would dare to enter. That hostility is the problem. I would rather have balanced politics at such events or none at all.

I dont like art events to become taken over by politics of one side. When there is not effort to avoid this the politicos just get a free rally!
At least a good effort should be made to make others welcome, perhaps contacting groups with opposing views perhaps sharing of slots for political entries more evenly.

Conrad

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 08:13 PM

Art Brut:

"Named after French painter Jean Dubuffet's definition of outsider art -- art by prisoners, loners, the mentally ill, and other marginalized people, and made without thought to imitation or presentation. . . ."

Okey dokey. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 07:59 PM

Some decades back, I had a very good friend named Ric Higlin, He was an artist. At least people who saw his work (me included) thought of him as an artist. He painted in various media, drew and sketch very skillfully, and he was quite a good sculptor. Many knowledgeable people bought his works, sometimes for fairly respectable amounts of money.

He could do all kinds of abstractions. And at the same time, he was prodigiously skilled, to the point where, if he wished, he could draw or paint a portrait that was almost a photographic likeness. And any and all points between, including outrageously funny cartoons and caracatures. He had essentially complete control over whatever media he chose.

No matter how abstract or realistic, Ric's works were not "accidents."

When people would ask Ric what he did, he would respond, "I am a painter." Sometimes a bit flummoxed, not knowing if he might be a house painter or sign painter, they would ask, "What sort of things do you paint?"

"Pictures," Ric would respond.

"Oh!" they would say, "then you are an artist?"

"Well," responded Ric, "that's not for me to say. I paint pictures. If people look at something I've done and declare it to be 'art,' that pleases me very much. But whether or not I am an 'artist' is not for me to judge."

I always had a great deal of respect for Ric Higlin.

In terms that would be understood by readers of Douglas Adams' Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, I'd say that Ric knew where his towel was.

Don Firth

P. S. A quote from Douglas Adams that may be germaine to this discussion:

"Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Melissa
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 04:52 PM

Peasant: "Always know when a nerve is touched and they can't reason out a good defense."

I think maybe your cliches have somehow gotten scrambled.
When you said you 'touched a nerve' maybe what you meant was 'triggered a gag reflex'

***

Instead of trying to get people to open their stage to contrary opinions, wouldn't it be easier to create Contrary Fests where opposing viewpoints combine their regular events to double your pleasure?
For example, how about combining a Gun&Knife Show with a regular Folk Festival. Each group would have a ready audience and the stage could be shared equally.

You could set yourself up as a Specialized Promoter, Conrad!
You could propose and coordinate these Contrary Fests because you've already got an incomprehensible idea of how to solve a (possibly non-existent) problem you have identified.
If you do that, we'll be able to see whether the sensible folk who doubt your perception are as logical as they appear..or whether we get to eat your dust.

I bet you could get some other ideas for OpposingCombo Events right here if you play your cards right.
Think of the wasted audience at women's clinics..pro-lifers outside, stressed out women waiting in the lobby. Why not set up a stage there?!
Why are you the only one who has thought of this??

Go for it, Conrad!
Let us know how it works out.

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 03:48 PM

How dare we like and dislike differently from you. Because in art, "dislike" must perforce equal "intolerance".

The artistic soul has no time for logic.

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 03:46 PM

Messenger bashing- I love it. Always know when a nerve is touched and they can't reason out a good defense.

Here is a bumper sticker I saw today- great instruction for you-

FEAR NO ART

Yes I am an outsider visionary (art brut) artist look it up. Lots of us out there. Nationally recognized at that. See the wonderous tabletop book edited by my friend Matt Lake- Weird Maryland, And the second artcar book by Harrod Blank, and a survey of important Baltimore sights by Dan Rodricks-another great photo study. Additionally covered by Voice of America Television. Hey you overseas folks mightjust have seen me!

My bottle tree is progressing nicely. The most recent project. My first show of the year is this week-

Your views on art expressed here match your intolerance of the music of others at least you are consistant.

Conrad

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 03:09 PM

But is it . . . ART?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: theleveller
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 01:02 PM

"Thanks for all of the interest in my art!
"

Oh ther's some art in there, is there? Must have missed it amongst all the lurid coloured junk. It's pretty much sums up your your posts, Conrad - colourful but complete rubbish!

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 08:00 AM

Thanks for all of the interest in my art!
Truly wondrous.
The neighbors dont think much at all generally
Most people are amazed, stop in wander about take photos.
All welcome.

Conrad

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 05:14 AM

""I think lots of fascists would have nothing to do with killing people however on the positive side they may have ways to make the trains run on time.""

That's exactly what they said about dear old Adolf.

THEY WERE WRONG!

Ask all the Jewish people whose families ceased to exist in the forties what they think of Griffin's sidekick walking down London streets, shouting "Death to the Jews".

YOU ARE WRONG!

Don T.

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 05:09 AM

""You should not inflict your particular values on a culture or a music tradition. You should work on ways to bring in the greatest diversity not eliminate or discourage one color or another.""

At last you begin dimly to realise what we are on about, but, as usual, you've got the whole scenario arse about face.

We are the ones who are trying to prevent others from doing just what you talking about.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: theleveller
Date: 11 Apr 10 - 04:16 AM

"By the way, leveller, have you seen Conrad's web site?"

Bloody 'ell, it's even worse than I thought - total reality bypass!

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 09:12 PM

Dave-
re your post with the link to the BNP song.
Certainly not a pretty sentiment. And certainly not one I agree with. But nevertheless an artifact of our times, and as such worthy of collection.
Thanx for the link.

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 03:38 PM

but he seems to have hordes of garden gnomes.

Imposters every one!

DeG

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: buddhuu
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 03:25 PM

This gobshite has a website? Oy vey...

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 03:12 PM

Sorta wonder what the neighbors think. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 03:11 PM

KITCHY kitchy coo!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 02:07 PM

See this thread:    CLICKY

By the way, leveller, have you seen Conrad's web site?   If not, you are actually closer to the truth than you may realize. He doesn't have all that many fairies at the bottom of his garden, but he seems to have hordes of garden gnomes.

Not to mention miscellaneous body parts!!????

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 12:46 PM

"this includes you, Conrad, and your bizarre folk zealotry"

The problem is, Ruth, that Conrad lives in his own little self-constructed world of fakelore that has more resemblance to Tolkein than reality. I bet he also believes that the world is flat, that he has fairies at the bottom of his garden and that he is some great wizard. I've come across people like him before and their state of mind usually stems from reading too much Lord of the Rings. taking too many halucinogenic substances and listening to The Moody Blues Threshold of a Dream. I've started to find all this extremely amusing now - I'm waiting for threads from him on what to wear when entering an enchanted forest and how to disarm a Balrog.

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 10 - 08:18 AM

I have said that all songs are ok, all content ok

That is certainly an opinion I would oppose. Songs that incite people to hurt others are not OK. Try this song for an example.

The common sense I was talking about is the sense that SHOULD be common to everyone. That is the sense that tells us some things are just plain wrong. Religious beliefs rarely come under that category. The examples cited above about the earth being the centre of the universe etc. are nothing to do with common sense. They were a common belief or a shared faith. Faith and sense are often mutualy exclusive I'm afraid.

DeG

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 06:57 PM

"There are many belief systems- if they want to believe that the earth is flat or that wine changes to blood whatever...that is their choice and has nothing to do with me they have a right to their own freedom and the right to be different."

Well,if those belief systems truly wanted to simply pootle along as they wish, and not dictate the way I or my friends choose to live our lives in any way, there wouldn't be an issue. Unfortunately, many people of a particular religious or political ideology don't just want to govern how THEY live - they want to govern how WE live - and this includes you, Conrad, and your bizarre folk zealotry. Stop telling us what to do. If you like what we do, participate in it. If you don't - bugger off and do whatever turns you on with your horn jackets. But don't tell me I have to engage with your creeds, or how you think I ought to engage with music on any level. Because, like as not, I will simply tell you to fuck off.

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 05:31 PM

Conrad: mousethief- what would they say about you....I am sure they think they are equally correct. You dont change anything by telling someone that their position should not exist.

I didn't tell him his position should not exist (whatever that means) but that it was wrong. And you have to tell people they're wrong -- that's how progress is made in all science and history.

The RCC didn't kill a single scientist. (Plenty of Protestants, alas.) Many people don't know this. If they assert otherwise, they are wrong. It is possible to be wrong, Conrad, however much you might wish it were not so.

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 05:00 PM

Here is one for you -

Are you going to stop singing any catholic song, irish catholic songs, hymns from the catholic church, ave maria etc.....now that the word is out that internationally and as a trend the church has condoned and covered up child molestation?

The Jewish people in Jerusalem stoned to death St. Stephen the first martyr of the church. Not exactly a moral act in your book....Shall we all eliminate jewish songs and music.

Look far enough and any people, political group, culture, race has done something terrible it is only by forgiveness and finding the good in their works of art that we can overcome. Again one can appreciate a work of art even not understanding the words at all. And the old calls to action are stale - so the next time you hear a song about going and joining Charlie are you going to run around looking for a cavalier king to join up with?

Perhaps by reacting so violently to the old ideas you let them have power over you that should be long dead and part of the history.

Conrad

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 04:53 PM

don we as as a society do lots of things that others even those in our own society think are terrible and immoral.

just talk to the anti abortionists

Again I do not support fascists and again the solution is that they can do what they want with the restriction that people can leave and become established elsewhere if they dont like the cultural practices and others can enter who wish to master and live the culture.

There are many belief systems- if they want to believe that the earth is flat or that wine changes to blood whatever...that is their choice and has nothing to do with me they have a right to their own freedom and the right to be different.

Lots of changes within the last 50 years would have deeply shocked the people of my parents generation as immoral. But now we all agree that people make choices and those choices are valid and now they can become moral. It is all in the eye of the culture and cultures need not agree with each other. I dont agree with quite a few sub cultures in this country.

You should not inflict your particular values on a culture or a music tradition. You should work on ways to bring in the greatest diversity not eliminate or discourage one color or another.

I think lots of fascists would have nothing to do with killing people however on the positive side they may have ways to make the trains run on time.

Conrad

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 04:45 PM

stringsinger I never said anywhere that I would limit the artist. I have said that all songs are ok, all content ok, political speeches not so good

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 04:43 PM

mousethief- what would they say about you....I am sure they think they are equally correct. You dont change anything by telling someone that their position should not exist.

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 04:26 PM

Maybe so. But nevertheless, Galileo was given the choice of repudiating what he knew to be true, or spending the rest of his days in incarceration. Actually, the Church was burning "heretics" at the stake at the time, and who knows what would have eventually happened to him had he not backed down.

The principle holds:   Galileo was right. "Common sense," determined (dictated) by the culture of the time, was wrong.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 03:43 PM

Don Firth: So much so that the Church offered Galileo the choice of either repudiating what he had seen with his own eyes or being burned at the stake.

Actually he was placed under house arrest. It's far more glam to say he was going to be burned at the stake. It's just not true.

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Don Firth
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 02:35 PM

". . . common sense is culturally defined. That is the way it should be."

WHAT!??

Conrad, there are many, many things that were accepted as "common sense" by various cultures and at various times in history that are patently irrational, some so irrational that they constitute abominations. Others have mentioned some of these above, such as public beheadings for things such as adultery, chopping off hands for minor crimes such as petty theft, witch-burning or being burned at the stake for not believing properly, or just being accused of not believing "properly."

The idea that the earth was the center of the universe was the universal belief of practically all cultures. It was common sense. You could see just by looking about you that the earth stayed in one spot and all of the heavens moved around it. And then Galileo pointed this newly fashioned gadget called a "telescope" at the skies, saw that things were not as everyone believed them to be. Rather than being a perfect sphere, the moon had mountains, valleys, craters; Jupiter was not a wandering star, it was another world—and it had smaller worlds circling about it. Could it be that—? Not only "could it be," but it turned out that this is indeed the way it is. The earth is not the center of the universe.

This meant that Man, God's greatest creation, was not that all-fired important in the Grand Scheme of Things after all!

Of course this flew in the face of "common sense." So much so that the Church offered Galileo the choice of either repudiating what he had seen with his own eyes or being burned at the stake.

"Common sense" is often at odds with the way things ARE.

Does this mean that Reality has changed? No, it means that "common sense" was wrong.

Once again I cite the kultur in Nazi Germany. Ridding the world of Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, the handicapped, and anyone who was not blond and blue-eyed was "common sense" to many presumably modern, educated, and "civilized" people—"common sense" to a sufficiently large percentage of the population that even those who had the courage to protest and say, "This is wrong!" were either ignored or themselves arrested and sent to the death camps.

If you have a degree in anthropology, Conrad, then you are living proof that having a sheepskin in a particular subject does not mean that one has any kind of fundamental understanding of that subject.

And you would take Art, bring it down to the lowest common denominator by castrating it and turning it into nothing more that a pretty little pile of flavorless goop.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Stringsinger
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 01:05 PM

Conrad would like to rob the artist of his/her individuality by making their performance
so bland that it would appeal to everyone. The problem with this is that the more appeal an artist has to a larger audience, the tendency is to reduce the performance to a vacuity.

There are certain things in every culture that are objectionable. For example, Islam's practice of "honor killings" and public beheadings. Or Christian witch-burning. (check out Martin Luther and John Wesley's attitude about this). As to cultures specifically, it was part of the Southern culture of the Forties to hang black people.

PC is a term that has lost its meaning. There is no political correctness any more. Politics is all over the map and is often confusing such as the ideas promulgated by the "Tea Baggers".

PC was used by devotees of the Right-wing to condemn those whom with which they disagreed.

The idea that the current musical artist is part of a "conspiracy" to push rigid political ideas across to anyone is specious. It has no merit.

If you analyze the development of the performing artists who make a difference in people's lives you find change and fluidity in their ideas, musically and lyrically.
The idea that their are those who are frozen in time in their political beliefs just
doesn't apply today. At the same time, those without passion or conviction in their politics or ideas make for very dull performers.

Most folkies admire Pete or Utah Phillips or Woody Guthrie precisely because they made
statements that if at least the audience may not have agreed with the sentiments, they
realized the integrity of their performance.

The cultural anthropologist is not in a state of wanting to freeze people in time although this was the tendency of Herskovitz and many stuffy folklorists. Societies are fluid,
change with the times, and can't be monolithic in their views.

The "multicultural" tolerance and pseudo-objectivity can become enabling for the
destructive tendencies of some cultures and religions and these should not be tolerated.

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: mousethief
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 12:45 PM

Opposing fascism is not being "PC". It's being human.

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: Bettynh
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 11:58 AM

"We should not tell people that their culture is immoral we should just help them to leave it and start a new life elsewhere."

Conrad, please clarify this.

Subject: RE: Folksong-when performance/when political rally
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Apr 10 - 11:41 AM

David- common sense is culturally defined. That is the way it should be.

Freedom to interpret the world is important. So often westerners claim that western received views should be inflicted upon everyone. That should never happen.

Same with music.

Just look at how terrible immoral behavior has now been accepted in the United States and the west as perfectly ok. Same with general tolerance of the once thought terrible use of drugs. Values change.

Look at the islamic views of consumption of alcohol- they dont believe in it at all.

So its all relative.

My feeling as an anthropologist, yes I have a degree and graduate work....is that the solution is freedom to opt in and out. We should not tell people that their culture is immoral we should just help them to leave it and start a new life elsewhere. Same with entering a culture. It should not be place of birth or genetically determined (we fought a war about that) it should be the mastery of the culture.
And active practice of the culture.

So we always have sides trying to claim that only their PC values be expressed in music. As politics changes one set of songs is ground to dust as the other is raised up. This is wasteful and discrespctful of the song or genre as art.

The solution is to guarantee a forum where music is presented as music and as art and where everything possible is done to bring in those who may not feel welcome not to keep them away.

The other side has just as much right to possess the music as you if you wish to maintain the battlefield. That battlefield needs to be removed.

Conrad