Do folk people like the Bodhran?

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 11:53 AM

Good Bodhran playing can be great, poor Bodhran playing can be.. perplexing!

Otherwise unaccompanied vocals can sound pretty striking with a solid drummed accompaniment.

Christie Moore singing and drumming 'the well below the valley' here, remembering that the Bodhran was originally a war drum, I think the drumming adds a great deal of stress and tension to the already challenging lyrics lyrics: Well below the valley (a similar rendering my be found on the Magdalene Sisters soundtrack)

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 11:58 AM

War drum? I thought it was for winnowing!

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 11:59 AM

I am sure there was a version of Patrick was a gentleman on vinyl from one of the bands Mr Moore was part of.

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 12:05 PM

No Tim, just been listening to the music for thirty odd years and interviewing traditional musicians talking about it.
Surely you're not one of these divas who believe that only musicians have a right to an opinion on music (and then only offer favourable ones)- are you ?
As I said, we are surrounded by excellent musicians here and one thing they have in common is an antipathy of bodhrans.
Why are you people so negatively defensive - come on let's hear how the music would have died without you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Tootler
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 02:34 PM

No Tim, just been listening to the music for thirty odd years and interviewing traditional musicians talking about it.
Surely you're not one of these divas who believe that only musicians have a right to an opinion on music (and then only offer favourable ones)- are you?

Of course you are perfectly entitled to your opinion, but I would take a great deal more notice of an opinion from someone who plays an instrument than from someone who does not.

Learning to play an instrument gives you a totally different perspective on that instrument and on playing instruments in general.

By commenting the way you do in this thread, I would suggest you are stepping outside your area of expertise.

I ended up briefly in an ad hoc percussion section at a recorder playing day (no part for contrabass in the piece they were playing at that time) and it gave me a great deal more respect for percussionists generally. As to trying to read a percussion part from notation - definitely interesting. Most of those playing in the main recorder group seemed to think we were OK, I thought we were dreadful - it was fun though :-)

Well played, percussion can add to any musical session, badly played it can destroy the session. Those who say that you need to learn to play the Bodrhan properly before you attempt to play in sessions are spot on. It has to be treated like any other instrument in that respect and you need to at least learn the basics. However once you are confident you have a decent feel for rhythm, then playing in a session is one way in which you can improve. You can only get so far playing on your own. Playing with others is a whole different game and the only way to learn to play effectively with others is.....















to play with others.

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 03:17 PM

"Learning to play an instrument gives you a totally different perspective on that instrument and on playing instruments in general."
Then why do bodhran players...?
Sorry Tootler - your attitude smacks of elitism.
Just ask yourself - why are bodhrans so universally hated?
"Jimmy the Brit"
I see we've acquired a skulker in the shadows!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: s&r
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 03:42 PM

Last time I was in Clare we joined in a session in the local pub: the cook was from somewhere in India, and joined in the sessions with everyone on an Indian drum (not tabla.)

He was well received and welcomed, as were we all. One of the highlights was a duet between the Indian chap and our bodhran player.

No problems, just a good session. The Clare musicians were as welcoming as any we've found.

Good memories

Stu

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: GUEST,Conor O'Brien
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 03:48 PM

In 1963 I won the all Ireland bodhran cup, presented by the great singer Fergus McNulty, who was visiting from Glasgow. Since then I've toured the world - I imagine most of you here know my music very well - playing the bodhran and sporadically - the mouth harmonica - or God's Harp, as I prefer to call it. In Connaught, we have a saying - Go n-ithe an cat thú is go n-ithe an diabhal an cat - which basically means may the cat eat you and the devil eat the cat - and that's what I'd say to all you bodhran doubters. The bottom line is that played well, like when I play it, or the great Harvey Munn, it's as sweet as an egg - but played badly - like 99.9% of players, it's as welcome as a wet fart in a small lift. Leave it out. Learn something else. Learn the pipes, or get a job in the bank and get the drinks in at every session you go to - that way you'll be more popular than as a bad / ok / novice / good bodhran player. Only the very best need apply, I'm afraid. Remember - Is deas an rud an beagán ach é a dhéanamh go maith.
If you can't understand that you shouldn't be any where near the sacred goats tum anyhow.
Jim Carrol - I salute you - Nár laga Dia do lámh.

Conor "Bruiser" O'Brien

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: ruairiobroin
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 03:53 PM

In a good Irish Trad session, whatever a bodhran player adds, it will not be rhythm . Good sessions can make the pauses sound as loud as kettle drums and whatever fancy techniques and contortions are performed on the drum will do little to enhance the quality of the tunes. Sadly the good bodhran player (there are some) often does music a disservice, by making what they do look easy, thereby encouraging every clotheared hangeron to think they should join in too.
If you're going to play spend your first few years listening and watching the good ones Not the potwalloping gobshites with a mechanics kit to set themselves up and a toolbox of peculiarities to assault the goat. Good players recognise the importance of silence, sublety and simplicity. players like young Robbie Walsh or Colm Phelan know the whens, wheres and hows you'll find them on youtube. Also if you intend to accompany yourself singing , on your head be it but if you intend to accompany somebody else singing, for your own sake ASK. All the best R

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 04:04 PM

"The Clare musicians were as welcoming as any we've found."
Let me guess - you were in Doolin!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 04:48 PM

"By commenting the way you do in this thread, I would suggest you are stepping outside your area of expertise."

Yes Jim. What are you thinking of, commenting about Irish music? Perhaps you should stick to your areas of expertise...

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 06:59 PM

Tootler, the bodhran can't add anything at all to a session because everything that a bodhran can do is already there in the tunes. The rhythmic and percussive drive is intrinsic in dance tunes, and every bodhran player I've ever heard, even those with at least a semblance of rhythmic sense, has done no more than add a repressive and dulling layer of noise. They all overpower the little nuances of articulation that decent melody players can bring. One of the biggest problems is that even those few bodhran players who rise slightly above the execrable still think that all they need to know is what kind of tune is and then they're away. I contend that you should know the tune pretty well before you even ~think~ about joining in. Well enough to play it on a melody instrument. That stricture applies to melody players, so why should aspiring bodhranistas be exempt?

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Tootler
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 07:00 PM

As you were clearly having a dig at me Ruth Archer, let me set things straight. I was not commenting on Jim Carroll's knowledge of Irish music, but on his attitude to the Bodhran.

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 07:01 PM

what kind of tune it is

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Tootler
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 07:52 PM

Something on where the Bohdran came from and its origins in Irish music here

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 07:55 PM

"Tootler, the bodhran can't add anything at all to a session because everything that a bodhran can do is already there in the tunes. The rhythmic and percussive drive is intrinsic in dance tunes, and every bodhran player I've ever heard, even those with at least a semblance of rhythmic sense, has done no more than add a repressive and dulling layer of noise. They all overpower the little nuances of articulation that decent melody players can bring. One of the biggest problems is that even those few bodhran players who rise slightly above the execrable still think that all they need to know is what kind of tune is and then they're away. I contend that you should know the tune pretty well before you even ~think~ about joining in. Well enough to play it on a melody instrument. That stricture applies to melody players, so why should aspiring bodhranistas be exempt?"

Not noticed anyone saying here that they should.
I have found that the melody players are often as good as the Bodrhan players,unless of course they are regulars to the session who have spent the last few years playing exactly the same set of tunes,they are then often at least predictable.
Jim, a diva?
Moi?
You can be surrounded by the best musicians in the world mate it doesnt make you one. However is you played something and were surrounded by the best musicians in the world or any I suppose it does give you a chnace to improve by association.
Maybe a slightly less judgmental attitude and a little encouragement would work wonders even for a bodrhan basher?

Now who didn't read my rider properly why are there no blue smarties in my post bash bath?

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 08:04 PM

I love them. Maybe I should get one. mg

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 08:39 PM

OK Tim, next time you have a bodhran player round your way ask 'em to give you the names of the tunes they're playing on. Ask 'em if they know whether a given tune they're thumping away on is a jig, reel, hornpipe or polka. Ask 'em to play the tune they're "accompanying" on a melody instrument, or even if they can just whistle it. I think you'll end up a disappointed man.

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 19 Apr 10 - 09:41 PM

At our chantey session last Sat nite, I led Ted Egan's "Taking you back to Broome." As the rhythm of the song was somewhat similar to that of the song which preceded mine, I found myself wishing I had Bloodwood's Bodhran player to help me keep the rhythm straight. Regrettably, there were no bodhran players present.

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 02:22 AM

"....stepping outside your area of expertise."
Thanks for the reminder Tim, and for a peep into the head of a bodhran player. Will remember to give up my seat next time a bodhran player graces our presence at one of the half dozen weekly sessions over here.
Jim

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 03:45 AM

The role of percussion for folk music is quite different from its role in rock. In rock music, the drums lay down a base for the other musicians. In folk music, the rhythm is inherent in the melody and percussion is not necessary, but if it is there its role is to accompany and support the melody. A skilful bodhran player will play quietly, to underpin the melody rather than try to lead it. They will also know when not to play.

A good percussionist needs to know the tune, the key (drums, even bodhrans, can be tuned) and the ability to listen to and respond to the rhythmic nuances introduced by the melody musicians. In short, they need the same qualities of musicianship as the melody players. Some percussionists have this, most don't - worse, most don't even realise they need it.

I have no problem at all with percussion played well and appropriately. However it's not the easy option which so many people (including, unfortunately, so many percussionists) think it is.

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 04:10 AM

Howard

That's as elegant and succinct an analysis of the contribution of percussion to Irish music as I've ever read. Well put, sir!

Regards

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 04:15 AM

"OK Tim, next time you have a bodhran player round your way ask 'em to give you the names of the tunes they're playing on. Ask 'em if they know whether a given tune they're thumping away on is a jig, reel, hornpipe or polka. Ask 'em to play the tune they're "accompanying" on a melody instrument, or even if they can just whistle it. I think you'll end up a disappointed man."

Maybe so Steve, maybe so. I think its just as likely with any one new to the music or the particular session what ever instrument they are playing.

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 04:19 AM

"....stepping outside your area of expertise."

What ho James!
I don't think that was mine,;-]

Thanks for the seat though.

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 05:01 AM

"ask 'em to give you the names of the tunes they're playing on. "

C'mon, most melody players don't know the names of the tunes themselves.

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 05:07 AM

C'mon, most melody players don't know the names of the tunes themselves.

Heard a nice jokey claim recently that there are really only four tunes in the whole of the Irish music world - and the true function of festivals, fleadhs, summer schools etc. is to keep thinking up new names for them!

Regards

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 05:11 AM

"I don't think that was mine.."
Sorry Tim - didn't think it sounded like you; all these trips round the minds of bodhran players have brought on the agorophobia again.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: GUEST,Buddhuu
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 05:36 AM

The OP's question was about whether "folk people" like the bodhran, not just tune session people.

Nevertheless, the gobby, Trad bully boys as always seem unwilling even to let people at other kinds of folk get-togethers choose which instruments they want to include and welcome.

Maybe one of them claims the absolute authority to rigidly define "folk", and therefore to prescribe or proscribe the instruments we may use in ballad sessions and singarounds.

I would never play a drum in a tune session where it was unwanted, nor without asking first, as I know the hostility is widespread.

Some people will claim that guitars shouldn't be allowed in sessions, that banjos should be banned, that free reeds - especially harmonicas and piano accordians should be kept out.

The origins of the bodhran are not terribly important. Sessions are full of johnny-come-lately, "non-Trad" instruments. There are people who would ban everything except pipes, fiddles, flute and harp (and maybe whistle). What is important is whether the instrument can add to the proceedings, or at least not detract or ruin.

I endured a lecture once in a pub in Kerry from a bloke who claimed to be a fiddle player, although he didn't have a fiddle with him... I had sat in on a session with my mandolin, which was fine until he heard my English accent. Upon sussing my nationality he decided to tell me all about the music and its origins. He was a pain in the arse, but he did make a point...

Much of session music is dance music, or adapted from dance music.

That said, I pity the dancer who would try to dance along with 'Maid Behind the Bar' at the speed some session wankers play it (I know it's on many people's sneered-at, cliche tune list, but if you're that desperate to get it over with, why play it at all?).

I digress. Dance music. A lot of it is basically dance music. When it was danced to, more widely than it is now, it was often customary for dancers to wear footwear that would make a racket when battered against stone flags. Or to dance upon a wooden floor that would make a noise. This Kerry geezer reckoned that you'd get people trying to dance louder than each other.

Now, I don't know if that's true or not. Strikes me as plausible.

In the absence of dancers, I see nothing inappropriate in percussion filling the sonic space that might otherwise be occupied by feet.

I am happy to have the courtesy not to play my bodhran in your session. Fair's fair, and I'd hope that even a pure-drop big mouth would find the same manners and not slag off my drum in my local pub where all are welcome.

If they did, they would be inviting a lesson in a different kind of percussion.

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 07:02 AM

QUOTE manitas: "ask 'em to give you the names of the tunes they're playing on. "

C'mon, most melody players don't know the names of the tunes themselves. UNQUOTE

I did give you several alternative challenges to put to them!

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 07:16 AM

Buddhuu: "There are people who would ban everything except pipes, fiddles, flute and harp (and maybe whistle). What is important is whether the instrument can add to the proceedings, or at least not detract or ruin."

Exactly. All the other bannable instruments you mentioned are melody instruments. In diddley music at least all the essence of the music is in the tunes, and that includes the rhythmic drive. There is nothing a bodhran can add because it is not a melody instrument. At its very best in sessions a bodhran adds nothing but noise. Unfortunately, it is seldom at its very best. This is not theoretical claptrap emanating from the mouths of theoretical purists, you know. It's the bitter fruit of many years' experience of putting up with talentless and tasteless thumpers. In decades of going to sessions they are the only kind of bodhran player a lot of us have ever encountered. It's a shame that most traditional melody players have such sweet natures. We can be our own worst enemies at times.

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 07:21 AM

If I'm going to listen to drums of any sort in folk music, I prefer to listen to Dave Mattacks.

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: goatfell
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 07:33 AM

I like the Bodhran because I sometimes play it.

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 07:43 AM

I like the football because I sometimes play it.

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Bernard
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 07:51 AM

I like the fool because I sometimes play it.

This is getting silly...!

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 08:38 AM

When it was danced to, more widely than it is now, it was often customary for dancers to wear footwear that would make a racket when battered against stone flags. Or to dance upon a wooden floor that would make a noise. This Kerry geezer reckoned that you'd get people trying to dance louder than each other.

Now, I don't know if that's true or not. Strikes me as plausible.

In the absence of dancers, I see nothing inappropriate in percussion filling the sonic space that might otherwise be occupied by feet.

I find nothing inappropriate in that either.

However if the hard-shoe-shod dancers get as across, and out of time with, the music as the type of bodhran-thumper we're talking about, there's a whole lot of 'sonic space' which gets filled with hopeless mush - and that is what we're talking about here. Nothing to do with banning instruments or enforcing The Pure Drop or whatever, just trying to take a stand against the tunes getting buried under a relentless tide of badly battered goatskin.

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 08:55 AM

"Nevertheless, the gobby, Trad bully boys"
Now there's a piece of bullying for you! Works both ways folks - I've seen more good sessions ruined by insensitive arseholes who sit down and play unasked, whether they are able to or not. That is as much being a bully boy' as being asked not to play, which, in thirty-odd years I've never seen happen.
I did notice that nobody ventured an answer as to why bodhrans are universally hated - is it really just the rest of the world?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Morris-ey
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 08:59 AM

"I did notice that nobody ventured an answer as to why bodhrans are universally hated.."

They are not, that's why.

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 09:24 AM

No you're probably right - it's the arrogant twats who have given themselves the right to play them wherever they choose.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: GUEST,buddhuu
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 09:55 AM

Steve S said: "It's a shame that most traditional melody players have such sweet natures. We can be our own worst enemies at times."

You have a point, Steve. For as long as I've "known" you I've always thought you should try to be more direct and assertive! ;-)


@Jim: I would never join any session (on any instrument) without asking first. Never have done. I usually go along first with no instrument and have a chat to see if any of my instruments (at my level of playing) would be welcome, rather than arriving tooled-up and putting people on the spot.

Most people I know, even bodhran batterers and banjo players, do similar.

I have seen and heard many bad bodhran players - Certainly more bad than good - but I certainly don't think that justifies condemnation of all, especially outside the dance tune session context.

Many bodhran sceptics are conveniently ignoring the fact that the OP was not talking specifically about IrTrad sessions.

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 10:03 AM

In fact, I read it that he was talking specifically about "English folk circles".

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 10:26 AM

I didn't realise you were the same buddhu, buddhuu, what with that extra vowel an' all. Still, this isn't really about u is it? :-)

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: buddhuu
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 10:31 AM

"Still, this isn't really about u is it?"

I don't follow, Steve...

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 10:46 AM

"In the absence of dancers, I see nothing inappropriate in percussion filling the sonic space that might otherwise be occupied by feet."

Well I just might. This is an interesting new concept in music, that tunes are provided with "sonic spaces" begging to be filled. Especially by some skin-bashing dolt. However, tunes ~are~ provided, gladly, for people to dance to. If they happen to clatter their feet whilst so doing they are (a) not consciously doing it as a contribution to the music and (b) doing it with the blessing of the musicians. So comparing what dancers do with what goat-whankers do (that was on purpose) is hardly valid.

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 10:49 AM

Yes you do get it. Please tell me that yes you do get it...

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: buddhuu
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 11:15 AM

Yes, Steve, I do get it but, I'm embarrassed to say, I didn't cotton on until after I'd posted to say I didn't follow. *Groan*

Anyway...

Well you see, that fiddle fella was adamant that the dancer in the old days did clatter deliberately. As I said, I've no idea if that's true, or if it's a heap.

I have been to sessions where, as far as I could tell, the bodhran was clattering in a way that a) contributed to the music and b) was with the blessing of the musicians. :-P

The concept of sonic spaces in music is not new at all. It's not even my idea. Sound engineers and producers use the concept in mixing recordings.

That said, I accept that sonic space doesn't always have to be filled. I wasn't saying it did. My point way that percussion could occupy the space otherwise occupied by dancing feet. Not that it had to, or that a drum is as good as a floorful of happy dancers. It was just a thought.

Personally, I think it was a valid one, so I'll stand by it.

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 11:19 AM

Thats ok Jim I am sure I have said things and gotten away with it before.
LOL

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 11:28 AM

"I'm thinking of learning the Bodhran, but I'm wondering how it will be received.

I mainly mix in English folk circles, and don't want to be criticized every time I get an Irish instrument out.

So, my question basically is: Would it be welcomed or frowned upon?"

I don't think you will be criticized for getting it out matey.
amongst all the comments above are some that make sense even if ,as in J.Cs and S.S it takes some sorting out.
Play it gentle and low and only on appropriate tunes that you can deal with,and only after you ask if its ok.
Most of the time I just ask nicely and promise to be quiet.

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: GUEST,Gary The Hut People
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 11:38 AM

I don't usually get involved in these threads but I had to come on to this one. I can't believe some of the dogma, arrogance and downright rudeness of some people. Bodhrans can be played well and sensibly with great subletly but the reverse can occur as well. So what! I don't play one I found it too difficult, technically it's not an easy instrument to play, certainly to a high standard. However, everyone is entitled to play on any tune they wish, I have played with so many artists over the years and the musicians who struggle playing with percussionists are usually those with appalling timing.

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 11:43 AM

I always look forward to a Bodhran solo in 100 Pipers

L in C

Subject: RE: Do folk people like the Bodhran?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 20 Apr 10 - 11:56 AM

the real question is Do Bodhran people like folk?