folk club decline uk

Subject: folk club decline uk
From: GUEST,johnp
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 08:48 AM

Are folk clubs on the decline in the UK and what can/should we do about it. johnp

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 09:03 AM

Depends what you mean by folk...

DeG

(Running for cover...)

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Johnny J
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 09:06 AM

I have recently commented about this on a thread elsewhere and this is part of what I said....

"Do you think folk clubs are still as important as they once were?"

Yes and No.

There will never be enough venues for music whether they feature official concerts, Open Mics, or informal sessions of whatever style or genre. However, a folk club is not and never has been the only means available for the promotion and presentation of folk and traditional music.
Someone once said(Karl Dallas, I think?) "The reason that Folk Clubs exist is so that one day they will no longer need to exist.."

Arguably, the traditional model of a "folk club" is certainly not as popular or prevalent as it used to be. The title alone puts many people off but, personally, I believe that if that's what you, I, or we want then that's what we should call it. We don't have to be purists but it, at least, gives potential visitors and performers some idea of what to expect. In recent years, there's been a tendency to avoid the "F" word in all areas, eg the media, by the performers, organisers themselves and so on. For instance, Edinburgh Folk Club once printed "Music at The Osbourne" in large letters on its publicity with "Presented by Edinburgh Folk Club" in small print, Edinburgh Folk Festival relaunched themselves as "Shoots and Roots". Such actions(From what I could see) didn't serve to encourage any new punters to come along but only confused and irritated those who already supported such organisations.

So, if you wish to organise a club featuring mainly folk, traditional, and other related music, you could do a lot worse than call it a folk club. :-) "

In summary then, a decline in the number of folk clubs isn't necessarily a bad thing as long as folk and traditional music is healthy. However, there's nothing wrong with having them either and we shouldn't *deliberately* attempt to undermine them or be embarassed about the concept.

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 09:29 AM

one of the advantages of Folk clubs is that they are in seperate rooms,this enables the performer to perform material that would be difficult to perform in a noisy pub even with amplification.
Singers learn how to project their voices in folk clubs which they do not necessarily do when using amplification.
good folk clubs are the best venues to perform[imo],In Ireland singers clubs are few and far between,it has made me really appreciate good folk clubs,too often playing in pubs means the performer becomes wallpaper music.
House Concerts seem like a good idea to me too.
people have been talking about the decline in folk clubs since 1965,if people started talking folk clubs up a bit instead of knocking them,while stiull offering positive constructive criticism,the folk club scene might be even better

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: MikeL2
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 09:41 AM

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: David el Gnomo - PM
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 09:03 AM

Hi Dave

You are supposed to let go of the grenade ....lol

cheers

Mike

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: stallion
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 09:57 AM

I can't really remember what it was like way back when, I think maybe there was a kick against pasteurised beer, juke boxes.....piped music! and plastic pubs. Maybe the folk club format was of it's time like the hoover gave way to the Dyson, still do the hoovering though! For me it works for all the reasons GSS said but they are just one of a plethora of ways to enjoy the music genre, at the session in the Tap & Spile in York we gather to enjoy ourselves and have a night out with music and we do reach a lot of people who would not normally attend a folk club but have since listening and joining in at the tap. Maybe it is worth exploring whether the clubs that struggle are the ones who lean heavily towards traditional music and the ones that survive are the ones that have a more eclectic mix of performers. I do not really have sufficient knowledge to give a scholarly opinion but I am interested to know.

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: GUEST,Rob The Roadie
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 11:09 AM

Is It or are Folk Festivals replacimg folk clubs. There seems to be more festivals than there are places!!!
Why go to a club when a festival gives you a whole years entertainment in one weekend. ??? (Ducks for cover)

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 12:37 PM

well, folk clubs are about encouraging music in local communities ,folk festivals are becoming[with afew exceptions] about bums on seats.folk festivals are generally geared towards being more commercial,because they have bigger expenses to cover.
if you believe in the principle[as Ido] of home made music you should support your local folk club

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Tradsinger
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 01:14 PM

Having been involved in folk music for ** years, I have some perspective on this. It is true that the folk clubs don't have the atmosphere which they did in the 60s and 70s, but they still have a role as they do enable singers to perform material that would not get a fair hearing in other settings. That said, although I still do a lot of singing, but relatively little of it is done in folk clubs. My main outlets these days are - singsongs after a Morris do, other random pub sessions and house parties and other random gigs including barn dances. However, you have to chose the right song for the right context - singing 'Lord Bateman' at a post-Morris do would probably clear the pub, whilst singing The W*** R**** in a folk club will not get the ready reception that it used to.

Bottom line - there is a lot of folk song and music around, but the focus has shifted away from the folk clubs.

Tradsinger

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Nick
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 02:25 PM

"folk clubs are about encouraging music in local communities"

That's an interesting view and one that it would be nice to believe in. That hasn't been my experience. I like folk clubs and the music performed in them but I think they no more encourage music in local communities any more than jazz clubs do. They tend to supply and serve a specific and narrow style of music to a small group of (mostly) already converted people.

Encouraging music in local communities is much more served by Community choirs or the meeting that Stallion mentions. Singarounds and sessions are much more inclusive than 'folk clubs'. Stacks of music going on round our part of the world but - outside of the Black Swan in York - very few 'folk clubs' within 25 miles.

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Howard Jones
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 07:59 PM

Time was that festivals and folk clubs were part of one continuum. The folk clubs I used to go to booked professional guests most weeks, with the occasional singers nights, and those guests were the same ones who headlined the festivals.

Now it seems that the pattern is reversed, and that with a few exceptions a great many clubs get by with a succession of singers nights and only the occasional guest. At the same time, the professionals are relying far more on festival and concert appearances, and are presenting bands and acts to suit these which would be both inappropriate and uneconomic in a folk club setting.

I find this disappointing. Concerts and festivals are all very well, but they don't have the same atmosphere as a good folk club, and in most cases the music benefits from a more intimate setting.

It seems to me, based on my own experience, that at grass roots level most good music is now going on in sessions rather than formal folk clubs. Certainly my own preference these days is to go to a session, where I can play all evening, rather than go to a folk club where I can expect to have to sit through a succession of patchy floorsingers, without getting to hear a professional guest, and only getting to play a couple of songs myself.

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: GUEST,johnp
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 03:07 AM

I think howards response has been my experience recently and was what prompted my question in the first place.

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Ralphie
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 03:25 AM

I agree with Howard too. Add the fact that 56 pubs a week are closing at the moment, and a lot of pub function rooms are having their useage changed (restaurants etc) just to raise the landlord some cash, not to mention the changes in licensing laws, makes it hadly surprising that the Folk clubs as I knew them in the seventies, in the main, aren't there anymore.
In London 25 years ago, you could go to a folk club every night of the week, sometimes having the choice of several options.
Scratching my head, I can think of 7 or 8 nowadays, spread out over a very wide area.
As for clubs being beneficial to local communities. Just not true. Yes, organisers might live locally, but I'm sure that audiences travel far and wide to see thir favouite artists. I very much doubt that (especially in large cities) the local community even know of their existence!

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Will Fly
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 04:15 AM

Lots of clubs in Sussex - I could go to one every evening of the week if I chose, without driving too far - and some of them are very good indeed, with a guest every week or every fortnight. On the whole, though, I do prefer sessions - and there are lots of those in the area as well - because I can get to play for a large part of the evening but, more importantly, sessions are a great way of learning new material to play. The standard of playing in sessions (around here at any rate) is very good, and it's primarily tunes that I'm interested in.

So, I don't think the clubs are in decline round here, but it all depends what floats your boat. For me, musical interaction with other players, strangers and friends, is a hugely enjoyable experience.

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Ralphie
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 04:34 AM

Will.
Couldn't agree with you more. Interraction with others is everything. It's just that I live in a musical Cul-de-sac!
I know just how lucky you are, but it's a helluva drive!

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: TheSnail
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 04:53 AM

Folk clubs don't just happen. They exist because enthusiasts are prepared to put in the time, effort and, quite possibly money, to make them happen. It's no good just sitting back and saying "Why doesn't somebody do something about it?"

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 06:22 AM

in my experience some folk clubs do pull from the local community,here are some examples
Swindon folk club most of the people attending live in the Swindon area,Wilsons folk club,most people from the nearby area,Stockton folk club like wise,Darlington folk club like wise,and quite a few others similiar.
I can also name clubs such as Robin Hoods Bay,where local people attend,but also have alarge proportion of holiday makers.holiday type destinationsare always going to have plenty of outsiders.
I agree with Ralph that big cities are a different scenario.
as Bryan says much depends upon the organiser

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 06:35 AM

Folk clubs are only as good as their organisers,SwindonFolk club,which Ted and Ivy Poole have organised for 50 years,is a good example.
Ted and Ivy are people who have been involved in their local community for many years,Ted until very recently was involved in selling the Morning Star[the paper that Ralph Jordan described as a commie rag]every Saturday,and has been involved in trying to help people with financial hardshipand other problems,and the club very much reflects Ted and Ivys character in that it does draw from the local community,and does have a strong community feeling to it, and avery welcoming feel,
if it has survived for 50 years,the organisers must be doing something right.

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: MikeL2
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 06:38 AM

Hi

I agree with most of what has been contributed above.

Folk clubs are changing from when I used to run them in the late 60's and 70's.

Why should we be surprised at this???

It has happened to other forms of music. Dance halls for instance. In my town years ago there used to be two large ballrooms and a few smaller places that ran ballroom dances.

You could go to a dance every night of the week and many people did.

Now we have none !! The Civic Centre does run the odd dance but they are few and far between.

TV in the form of Strictly Come Dancing has caused a small interest but is is very small compared with the heydays years ago.

Folk have changed and will continue to do so....and so will Folk music and how and where it is presented.

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: alex s
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 06:40 AM

There have been many good points raised in this discussion.

At Burnley Folk Club we try to encourage people with very little or no experience of performing to do so in a friendly, supportive and non-critical atmosphere. Regulars will provide backing if required and if anyone forgets the words there's always someone who'll join in and support them.

Over the last few months we have seen a rise in the number of beginners, which is very encouraging. Thinking back a few years, we can say that a number of our then beginners are now confident performers, some working in local bands.

It is hard to think of another type of club/venue which can do this - open mike sessions I have been to are often very strained affairs, full of nervous would-be performers waiting anxiously for their turn to do a couple of songs.

As Will pointed out, a session also gives seasoned performers the chance to learn new material and so everyone can benefit.

See you all tomorrow night.......

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Ralphie
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 07:56 AM

Dick
I just don't understand.
The Morning Star is (was) the paper of the Communist Party.
Newspapers have colloquially been called "Rags"
So, calling the MS a "Commie Rag" is just being accurate. (And what has it got to do with the subject of this thread anyway?)

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Vic Smith
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 08:12 AM

Here is a good example of folk club decline uk :-

ROYAL OAK
Station Street, Lewes
Enquiries:- [phone] or 881316

Email [e-mail].
THURSDAYS 8.pm START
***********************************

April 29th * £6.00 * ROGER WATSON & MUSA M'BOOB
The English singer and melodeon player and the Gambian master drummer who work together brilliantly in Boka Halat bring as their exhilarating music

May 6th * £6.00 * ÉAMONN Ó BRÓITHE & CREENA MULCHRONE
Éamonn is an outstanding exponent of the uillean pipes and Creena is the wonderfully talented young Irish singer who has been gracing our club lately

May 13th * £6.00 * PAUL BURGESS
One of England finest fiddle players (Old Swan Band, English Country Dance band etc.) is also a talented singer

May 20th * £6.00 * JEFF WARNER
Singer, musician on banjo and concertina, folklorist, Jeff's performances are musically satisfying as well as being entertaining


May 27th * £6.00 * DEBBY McCLATCHY
The first visit of this expert entertainer who performs with wit and imagination. While she plays a variety of acoustic instruments, when touring she just takes banjo and maybe a fiddle

June 3rd * £8.00 * BLACK UMFOLOSI 5 (from ZIMBABWE)
An amazing coup for us! We bring you one of Africa's outstanding vocal harmony groups singing in Shona and English ***ADVANCE TICKETS - PHONE OR EMAIL***

June 10th * £6.00 * PETA WEBB & KEN HALL
Peta & Ken's artistic ability and warm, informative approach and their visible enthusiasm for singing have deservedly won many friends and admirers.

June 17th * £6.00 * CHRIS FOSTER
Thoughtful, passionate, intelligent, nerve-jangling performances of English traditional songs and ballads. One of the folk revival's greats.

June 24th * £6.00 * KEITH KENDRICK & SYLVIA NEEDHAM
Making their first appearance for us, they bring entertaining performances of traditional songs and ballads of both land and sea.

July 1st * £6.00 * BAYOU SECO
From Silver City, New Mexico, Ken and Jeannie present a vibrant, stunning range of the rural musics of the southern states of the USA

July 8th * £6.00 * REG MEUROSS
The remarkable singer/songwriter who last played here to a capacity crowd in the company of Hank Wangford.

July 15th * £6.00 * THE OTHER BAND
Perennial local favourites, Marilyn, Iris and Gary perform their catholic repertoire to the highest musical standards

July 22nd * £6.00 * KAREN RYAN, PETE QUINN & BRONA McVITTIE
Three members of the superb band, "The London Lasses" bring us the Irish tradition in song and music on fiddle, harp and piano.

July 29th * Free Admission * END OF SEASON OPEN NIGHT
All performers welcome - particularly those who have not performed for us before.


Our Future Guests will include:-
SPIDER JOHN KOERNER * JOHN CONOLLY * THE CLAQUE * JOHN KIRKPATRICK * DANA & SUSAN ROBINSON

Our websites are at
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~tinvic and
http://www.myspace.com/royaloakfolklewes

Free Sunday afternoon song & tune sessions in the bar – last Sunday of the month – 3.30 to 5.30pm   – May 30th - June 27th - July 25th

Get out there and do it! It can still be done if you are prepared to work hard enough.

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 08:18 AM

"Get out there and do it! It can still be done if you are prepared to work hard enough."
Having just spent the last two nights on meetings regarding the consolidation of our club in a new pub (for the first time in nineteen years)I would echo that sentiment.

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Ralphie
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 08:18 AM

Vic...
Great line-up (as always)
One thing.
Can you move Lewes nearer to Watford? It's a bugger of a drive!

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 09:01 AM

And a few hundred yards from the Royal Oak in Lewes you'll find the Lewes Saturday Folk Club
- not only a weekly folk club with guests, but all-day workshops as well. We stay open in August.

MAY 1            WELCOME IN THE MAY   (£3)
Bring songs & tunes for the season. Maids of Honour, a traditional May treat made with new cream, lemon, almonds, currants & pastry, will be served.

MAY 8            SO LAST CENTURY STRING BAND (£5)
http://www.myspace.com/solastcenturystringband
Michi Mathias (fiddle, bnajo, voice) Dan Edwards (banjo, voice) & Tim Wharton (guitar, voice) play American Old-Time with excursions into jug band & 1920s/30s music.

MAY 15         JOHN JOSEPH                      (£4)
Underwater cyclist, yodelling chicken sexer, contortionist, unfrocked nun & intergalactic whistler: John is none of these things, but he is amazingly inventive & funny. Wear hard hat if nervous of ballistic onions.

MAY 22
Lewes Saturday Folk Club Workshop No 130
JOE PENLAND: NORTH CAROLINA SONG & SOCIETY WORKSHOP
http://www.joepenlandmusic.com/
10.45 a.m.- 4.45 p.m. Places £25
Joe has inherited the song & storytelling traditions of the North Carolina Appalachians. He plays guitar & banjo. His account of life in the small village of Sodom Laurel is fascinating & often surprising. The workshop will cover 'Old Love Songs & Ballads from the Western North Carolina Mountains' & the oral tradition that preserved them. There will be plenty of opportunities to sing the songs. A work book with lyrics & information & a CD of field recordings will be provided for each participant.
IN THE EVENING JOE PENLAND PERFORMS AT THE ELEPHANT & CASTLE
Admission £5. Advance tickets from the club or website.

MAY 29         COME-ALL-YE   at The Black Horse, 55 Western Road, Lewes   (£3 including raffle tickets)

JUNE 5 (Saturday)
MIKE O'CONNOR & BARBARA GRIGGS
http://www.myspace.com/covath
CORNISH TUNES FROM MANUSCRIPTS for any instrument
Places £25 10.45 a.m.- 4.45 p.m.
             Mike (fiddle, Anglo concertina) and Barbara (harp) are experts in Cornish & early music. They are lively, enchanting performers. Mike has researched & published beautiful & unusual tunes from many important manuscripts (Ilow Kernow). He is also a fine songwriter, singer, storyteller & a bard of the Gorseth of Cornwall. Cornwall's musical history is complex, going back to the days of its Breton lords. The workshop will cover Cornish music from the Middle Ages onwards, with plenty of fascinating tunes to play & stories to hear. Non-playing listeners are welcome too.

IN THE EVENING MIKE O'CONNOR & BARBARA GRIGGS PERFORM AT THE ELEPHANT & CASTLE. Admission £6. Advance tickets from the club or website.

JUNE 6 (Sunday)
MIKE O'CONNOR: SONGWRITING IN THE TRADITION
http://www.lyngham.co.uk/mike_oconnor.html
Places £25 10.45 a.m.- 4.45 p.m.
            Mike (fiddle, Anglo concertina & voice) is a fine songwriter, singer, storyteller & a bard of the Gorseth of Cornwall. His style is distinctive but rooted firmly in the tradition. His songs (The White Shepherd, The Best of Autumn, Unite, Unite, etc) have been recorded by Martyn Wyndham-Read, Johnny Collins, Sarah Morgan, Mike Nicholson & many more. He produced & directed the iconic folk operas The Cry of Tin & Unsung Heroes & recently took part in the production Cornish Lads.
            The workshop will cover the art & craft of songwriting: the first reasons for writing, the tools & materials available for following a traditional style, & polishing & performing.

JUNE 12        DICK MILES         http://www.dickmiles.com/introduction.htm (£5)
Dick sings & plays mainly traditional songs & tunes on English concertina. A founder member of the New Mexborough English Concertina Quartet, he blends music from Suffolk, from SW Ireland, & from his own writing.

JUNE 19         BRYONY http://www.myspace.com/bryonysofar (£5)
Cathy, Ailsa & Alison: three voices in beautiful harmony.

JUNE 26        MARTIN & SHAN GRAEBE http://www.martinandshan.net/index.htm (£5)
Fine vocal harmony; Martin & Shan sing unusual versions of traditional songs from the West. Martin also writes in traditional style ('Harry The Hawker Is Dead').

JULY 3        THE RUDE MECHANICALS http://www.rudemechanicals.ukf.net/ (£5)
Roy Chandler & Barry Ruffell play British, American & written tunes on English concertina, banjo, flute, fiddle, Northumbrian pipes, mandolin, whistle & trombone. They sing US trad & blues & more.

JULY 10        Lewes Saturday Folk Club Workshop No 133
KAREN TWEED: O'CAROLAN'S MUSIC for any instrument
http://www.karentweed.com/
Places £25         10.45 a.m.- 4.45 p.m.
A brilliant piano accordionist, Karen is steeped in Irish music as a performer, tutor & scholar. She has performed with The Poozies, Kathryn Tickell Band & John Kirkpatrick. She teaches at the Universities of Newcastle, Helsinki & Limerick, & for Folkworks. The workshop will cover 3 of O'Carolan's works, arranged for ensemble, exploring arrangement ideas. For any player of intermediate standard & above. Notation / learning by ear will be used.
IN THE EVENING KAREN TWEED PERFORMS AT THE CLUB.
Admission £6. Advance tickets from the club or the website.

JULY 17         COME-ALL-YE with spotlight on CAROLE TAYLOR (£3)
A chance to hear more from a good friend of the club.

JULY 24        HECTOR GILCHRIST (£5)
Hector sings Scottish & Irish traditional & written songs with guitar. Steeped in the tradition, his style is warm & compelling.

JULY 31        JAN CREAYE & ROGER BRASIER: 'NO BETTER THAN SHE OUGHT TO BE' (£5)
Jan's fine singing & Roger's accomplished reading encompass high tragedy & raucous comedy.

        N.B THE CLUB STAYS OPEN THROUGHOUT AUGUST WITH COME-ALL-YEs.

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Banjiman
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 09:21 AM

I can't comment on a decline as I wasn't around during the "heyday".

What I can say is that I can go to a traditinal style (floorspots/ guests at least once a month with singarounds etc as well) club any day of the week within about 45 mins drive.

I live in the middle of nowhere in North Yorks.

There's Stockton, The Cutty Wren (Skelton in Cleveland), The Black Swan in York, Bedale, 2 clubs in Guisborough (Fri and Sun), Foggy Furze in Hartlepool, Foresters Folk Club, Croxdale Folk Club, The Wilsons Club, Richmond Folk Club, Saltburn, Otley, Barnard Castle...... I could go on! Oh and Kirkby Fleetham. Attendances vary but most are pretty well supported.

Then there are a myriad singarounds, sessions and "acoustic" nights as well. There are also things like The Pot House in Hartlepool which doesn't quite fit either model (they have very occaisional guests) and a brilliant attendance of audience as well as singers.

The last guest we had at Kirkby Fleetham was Steve Tilston. Audience was about 2 thirds "folkies" and one third local residents, though calling it a folk club does put off some people round here.

I would say there was a regional bias but as some of you know my other half gets around to quite alot of clubs gigging. She was at Balerno F.C. in Edinburgh this week.... about 70 in the audience.

She has also been at The Topic (Bradford), Horsham, Croydon, Glasgow (The Star....about a foot of snow for this one!), Newcastle (The Bridge), Reading, Redditch, Bridlington and a few more this year.

Audiences have varied but she not played to under 30 (as far as I can remeber)and often 50+. My point is that despite her not being that well known, in most places people still seem to want to come to folk clubs to see booked acts.

So what was the heyday like?

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Ian Hendrie
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 09:52 AM

To state the obvious, if you are lucky to live near to a thriving folk club then your perspective will be very different to someone who doesn't. Living in the Manchester area which had an amazing folk scene in the 70's, I tend to think I'm now in the latter category. There are a number of folk clubs I have visited recently and they all seem to operate on the regular Singers' Night with occasional (perhaps monthly guests).
Though the guests tend to be well-known names I am very surprised with the low attendances (perhaps 30) for these events. What's more, many of the regulars at the Singers' Nights don't turn up for the guests!
On the other hand there is a monthly club nearby which doesn't use the word 'folk' in its name - though it quite clearly is a folk club - and which regularly fills the room with 'locals' who know they will get quality entertainment.
Perhaps it was the quality of floors singers which heralded the death knell of the folk club? One of the reasons I stopped going to folk clubs many years ago was the self-indulgent poor quality floor singer that you had to put up with in order to hear the guest you had paid good money to see.

After these ramblings, perhaps what I am trying to say is maybe that there ought to be a clearer distinction between singarounds/singers nights or whatever and folk nights which feature a paid guest. These are different types of event which will attract different audiences - there must surely be a large body of people who just want to listen to quality music. And if there are to be floor singers, or whatever they are called these days, to support a paid guest then someone needs to exert some quality control.

I submit this knowing that many mudcatters are high quality musicians who would not be subject to the criticism above, while I certainly would be.

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 10:37 AM

if every professional and semi pro singer of pro standard,went out once a week and did one floor spot in a local folk club,the standard of singing would improve immediately.
if folk clubs are a place where we earn our living,it seems sensible to try and keep the standard high,by puutting a little effort into supporting folk clubs,by doing a weekly floor spot to help them thrive.
http://www.dickmiles.com Dick Miles

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 10:57 AM

Though the guests tend to be well-known names I am very surprised with the low attendances (perhaps 30) for these events. What's more, many of the regulars at the Singers' Nights don't turn up for the guests!

I have experienced that too, Ian. What's more we often get more there on a singers night than on a guest night - Still, musn't complain. We don't charge for singers but the raffle does help top up the funds for the paid guests:-) We still have the occasional 'sell-out' for guests I'm glad to say. Johnny Silvo did it last year and we expect a repeat on May 24 (plug, plug :-) )

I initialy like the idea of having the montly guest nights loosing the 'folk' tag. Must have a think about that in light of your experience.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: GUEST,Continuity Jones
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 12:15 PM

if every professional and semi pro singer of pro standard,went out once a week and did one floor spot in a local folk club,the standard of singing would improve immediately.
if folk clubs are a place where we earn our living,it seems sensible to try and keep the standard high,by puutting a little effort into supporting folk clubs,by doing a weekly floor spot to help them thrive.


The problem with that Dick is that small folk club fees are normally pretty low and before too long the places close by are exhausted - you can't play the same club every month as the headline really, can you? Well, maybe you can, but most people couldn't, even Martin Carthy. I wouldn't travel more than 30 miles for a £50 fee - it wouldn't cover the petrol! And I know some "folk club" organisers are generous in "other ways" well, to be honest, I'm not a huge fan of Penguins!

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Vic Smith
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 12:20 PM

I wouldn't travel more than 30 miles for a £50 fee - it wouldn't cover the petrol!

I'm glad I don't drive your car!

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: GUEST,Continuity Jones
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 12:43 PM

I'm glad I don't drive your car!

Don't get cheeky "Vic" Smith, I live at the bottom of a long steep hill and I've not yet worked out how to unhitch the caravan or even unlock it's door and empty the 14 gravel sacks I put in one winter.

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 01:30 PM

I am suggesting that if you live close to a folk club you support it by doing regular floor spots,when I used to live in Nottingham,I could walk to several folk clubs,and there were two that i used to do floor spots at when i wasnt working .Iagree if it involves long distance travelling it is not practical or economical once a week ,but perhaps once a month might be.

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: GUEST,continuity jones
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 03:31 PM

fair point dickmiles but i live in the country and the closest ferk club is 3 miles nrth, next one 11 miles etc.

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: stallion
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 06:11 PM

mmmmm I walk just over a mile to both ours and taxi back, I know people that travel much further, indeed our friends in the US would think that three miles is a back yard gig! The problem with the country of course is the lack of public transport, could try a bike!

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: GUEST,addison
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 06:36 PM

Interesting discussion. 30 years ago, in the area I lived in, there was a well established folk club which had good audiences, guests 3 weeks out of 4. Good profile in the town, reports in local paper etc. The club ceased sometime in the 80s when audiences dropped off and the organisers settled down with families etc and their priorities changed. Audiences at that stage were higher than some folk clubs I've visited, and even some concerts in Arts Centres I've visited recently.
Now, in the area, there is no equivalent folk clubs. But within a 10 mile radius, there are several sessions - mainly music rather than song. Much less profile unless you happen to be in the pub.
which was more exclusive and grassroots?
The very name "club" might suggest something exclusive and might have put off newcomers. (I remember my first visit to folk clubs as a teenager - there was a certain amount of trepidation in finding the venue and going to the private room usually upstairs in the pub). But it got the audiences. The sessions are supposed to be more grassroots, yet in my experience, musicians sit in a circle, face each other and play to and for each other, rather then to an audience. I hope others can give a different experience.
when that folk club that died in the 80s had a reunion a few years ago, it was hard to find a venue. the pub where it used to meet had turned its upstairs room into an open access bar, and another suitable room wanted something like £50 for the night - we used to pay a nominal £1 a night!
Where I now live, there's a monthly folk club - apparently. the local town leisure guide just gives X folk club and a telephone number. No name, no venue, no day or time or frequency.
Oh to live in Lewes ...
addison

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 06:55 AM

oh there are two folk clubs in Croydon too ,both in the same premises,on a sunday and monday,plus real ale

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: mikesamwild
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 07:29 AM

Banjiman , when we were lads tha could do all that wi'out going out of earshot of our house. tell that to the kids today etc!

Seriously I do remember the 50s to 70s boom and , while it was great to be able to hear and share in a joint experience ( most drank beer) it was a bit cut off from the regulars in pubs etc. ironically the town was full of pubs and clubs with singalongs and music nights but we were prselytising folk and trad , now its a discrte genre it's more mainstream and acoustic nights, open mics and can-u-jams bring younger performers and listeners in.

When it moved to open sessions that suited me better. We kept a couple of music pubs and it was very inclusive. But even then some regulars went elsewhere so you can't please everyone. My ideal is a small pub ( 4 in a bar is fine by me, even if it doesn't bring i tade for the landlord ) where people are good friends, it's the banter and crack first for me

The Royal Traditions at Dungworth that Jon Boden and Fay Hield and friends are running has a lot of the best of the original clubs but even there people have to travel quite a way, although lots of folkies are coming to live round here.It maybe isn't too spontaneous but it's getting there as people learn or revisit the format.


Maybe when the oil runs out and we go to the pub on foot again it will go full circle..

Sussex does sound active Will!

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Will Fly
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 08:04 AM

There's loads on round here in Sussex, Mike - though it would also be nice to be able to get up to the Royal again sometime. I really enjoyed the Saturday lunchtime and evening sessions in the Royal at last year's Bradfield thrash. Unfortunately, a band gig in Bognor prevents me from coming up for the traditional weekend this year. Bognor or Bradfield, eh? Decisions, decisions...

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 08:14 AM

Even in their heyday, folk was a minority interest and folk clubs were places for people who were interested to go to listen to folk music. I don't recall any feeling at the clubs I went to that we should go out and proselytise to the other people in the pub - they just weren't interested. If you were interested in folk it was usually fairly easy to find at least one club through newspaper advertising, and from there to find others as they all shared information.

It's the same with sessions - they're primarily intended to entertain the musicians and others who go for the music. If other people enjoy it too that's fine, but the session will take place whether or not there's an audience.

What I regret is the comparatively few opportunities there are now to listen regularly to good professional performers, supported by (usually) competent amateurs. Now it seems to be a choice between occasional and expensive concerts and singarounds or sessions. Of course such clubs still exist, but they're much fewer on the ground - time was every town would have one.

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: mikesamwild
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 08:31 AM

Howard , I meant we were trying to establish and enjoy folk music and i apub situation that necessitated being in a separate room or they lost trade. Same goes for a session too if your a landlord or landlady.They must be desparate if you can treat it like you describe.Our Sunday session at the Red Deer is, on reflection, like that, noone else goes in cos its a town centre pub and the students are in bed and the workers are in the suburbs! But unless it drew in trade during the week or in fact drove it away it wouldn't be welcome.

I agree with you about a quiet venue for a class act, . Homes, art centres, upstairs rooms in pubs, little theaters etc but they need a regular paying clientelle, devoted organisers or subsidy. the Rock at Maltby is one club that has run on guests for years but clubs like that do put on established acts.Where do people get the initial experience to reach that level of confidence and experience nowadays ( University courses or sheer talent and determination).

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Banjiman
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 08:54 AM

"Where do people get the initial experience to reach that level of confidence and experience nowadays ( University courses or sheer talent and determination)."

mikesamwild,

I don't think it is quite as black as you paint it. My other half (Wendy Arrowsmith) had her first "main guest" gig at a folk club 2 years ago. She'll do about 25 - 30 folk club gigs this year (and a similar number of other gigs at Festivals, support slots at bigger concerts, "acoustic" venues and assorted others). She'd spent a couple of years before that doing floorspots, open mics etc.

The circuit is still their, if reduced, and a lot of clubs can be conservative in their bookings. But if you are prepared to work hard at contacting clubs and floorspotting, you can get somewhere (helps if you have a partner in steady employment as well!!!).

As detailed above these might not be to massive audiences (30 - 70 range) but it is viable...... as long as you sell plenty of CDs along the way!

She's done this without an agent, record company or professional PR. These things undoubtedly help artists get onto club and festival organisers radar though.

We also run a club in our village hall, again audience size varies but we run a bar when we think it will pay and the club's bank balance is very healthy. Profit from the bar keeps the club going, ticket money (sometimes subsidised from the bar takings!) pays the artists. The Raffle (hooray!) pays for the hall hire.

It really doesn't all seem in too bad a condition to me..........

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: mikesamwild
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 09:10 AM

Great , that's how it should be . Good luck, I'll look out for her. Any relation to Richard the Box?.

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Banjiman
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 09:16 AM

"Any relation to Richard the Box?"

Not as far as I can work out.

Wendy is doing a music teaching course (of sorts) with his partner in crime in Sheffield at the moment though. Not that this makes any of us related!

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: MikeL2
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 09:19 AM

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Ian Hendrie - PM
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 09:52 AM

< " they seem to operate on the regular Singers' Night with occasional (perhaps monthly guests).
Though the guests tend to be well-known names I am very surprised with the low attendances (perhaps 30) for these events. What's more, many of the regulars at the Singers' Nights don't turn up for the guests! ">

hi Ian

I have not been around folk clubs much recently due to a number of health and domestic problems.

Since I was involved it appears from your comment ( backed up by David) that things have changed.

When I ran folk nights at my clubs we had guests most weeks. Only occasionally did we not invite at least one guest.
We had several regular "floor singers etc" who appeared and did spots when we could fit them in. The bigger the name of the guest the more singers would turn up. It was a headache in those days to try to be fair to every singer in providing spots for them.

There are some folk clubs around where I now live but not pariticularly close, and as you say they are mainly singers nights. I am not sure what quality of musicians go. I must turn out and see for myself.

cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 09:44 AM

"It's the same with sessions - they're primarily intended to entertain the musicians and others who go for the music. If other people enjoy it too that's fine, but the session will take place whether or not there's an audience."
ha ha,no it wont,the pub is owned by someone else,not you Howard,that person depends upon selling beer for his livelihood,if your session doesnt bring in enough people the landlord will get a karaoake night instead.

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Marje
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 11:05 AM

I was at a pub session last night consisting of 16 musicians. Nobody else was listening to us, because the pub had holidaymakers in for meals and there wasn't enough room in the main bar, so we moved to an unused function room which we had to ourselves. (There were a couple of guys who wandered in, curious about the 6 different sets of bagpipes that were included in the line-up, but otherwise there was no audience.)

We were all buying drinks until closing time, long after the meals customers had left. The landlord would have been a fool not to appreciate that the session probably brought in 16 customers who wouldn't otherwise have been there. Unless the music actually drove people away from the pub, why would any landlord not want it?

Marje

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: theleveller
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 11:09 AM

"Unless the music actually drove people away from the pub"

SIX sets of bagpipes? Hmmmm....;-)

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: GUEST,romanyman
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 01:01 PM

six sets of pipes yum yum

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Marje
Date: 01 May 10 - 12:19 PM

I agree, six sets of pipes were probably best confined to a back room, and might have been a bit much for the public bar. They weren't all being played at once, though - most pipers seem to play at least one other instrument, so they kind of took turns to play. That was just as well, because they probably couldn't all have played in the same key.

Marje

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Will Fly
Date: 01 May 10 - 01:17 PM

Alan Day and I popped up to the Ram Club in Thames Ditton yesterday evening to do a floor spot and enjoy the music of Chris Sherburn and Denny Bartley. Very fine it was - but what was also fine was the excellent venue (The Old Cranleighan Club), the comfortable and welcoming club room, the thorough organisation and hard work to make it look and feel inviting, the good beer in the clubhouse bar, decent lighting, an excellent PA (if you wanted it), good resident singers and MC - and an audience who not only packed the place to the gills and showed their appreciation of the music in no uncertain terms, but whose age range was the whole spectrum from late teens/early twenties to granddads like me and Al.

No sign of a declining club there, I'm happy to report!

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: GUEST,PeterC
Date: 02 May 10 - 10:48 AM

The clubs that still manage to book a guest every week are good because they have had to be good to survive. There has been a long decline in this format but the situation seems stable now.

If I look back at when I first started going to clubs as a teenager there were two a week accessible by public transport which meant that I could see two decent pro or semi pro performers a week. From my parent's house there are still two (different) weekly clubs accessible by public transport but each only runs about 1 guest night a month.

On the other hand there are a variety of sessions and singarounds within driving distance and that circuit simply didn't exist back in the 60s.

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: GUEST,Allan
Date: 02 May 10 - 07:04 PM

"On the other hand there are a variety of sessions and singarounds within driving distance and that circuit simply didn't exist back in the 60s."

I think for smaller clubs that can maybe be the conflict sometimes. At Kelso we have weekly singaround sessions every Friday but also like to get visiting acts too on some occassions. However the club is somewhat split on those who like the guest nights and those who only want the singarounds. We've compromised by restricting it to just 4 Friday night guest nights per annum. But even at that quite a few of the regulars just don't come on the evenings we have a guest. Obviously as a small club we have to get others through the door to make up the numbers as we do often lose money on these nights but we like to minimise that loss. This year so far we have had Lyra Celtica and just on Friday we had Allan Taylor - so we are getting good quality acts and putting them on for low entrance fees. In fact we even made Lyra Celtica free at the door (making cash off the raffle and voluntary donations) and Allan was only £5 and £3 for concessions - and yet still many of the regulars don't appear!

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Folknacious
Date: 03 May 10 - 09:07 AM

Pardon me for stating the obvious, but discussions about "the decline of folk clubs" have been going on since the late 1970s - just dig out a few copies of Melody Maker and Folk Review from that era. The only surprising thing about these hand-wringings still going on is that in spite of this very long-term "decline" (for much longer now than the brief period in which folk clubs were truly popular), the quality of music and the interest/ participation of young people in it at the moment is, by general acclaim, the highest that many can remember. So you could say that folk clubs were just an enjoyable but short term historical blip on the evolution of the music: a passing fad, a brief catalyst.

Although it's sad for those who remember the 1960s heyday of folk clubs and would like to be able to re-live them, and for long-time pro and semi-pro performers who have been unable to adapt to changing timess, it's nowhere near as desperate a situation for the music itself as some claim.

One could just as well argue for the return of the earlier BMG societies . . .

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 10 - 09:31 AM

"but discussions about "the decline of folk clubs" have been going on since the late 1970s"
When we had four times the number of clubs (at least), ten times the number of enthusiasts and singers (at least) our own labels by the dozen. ditto of magazines and journals and ten times the media presence than we have now. Was it one of the Princes of Wales whose last words were "I think I'm feeling a little better this morning"?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 10 - 10:29 AM

PS F.n.
Your dating is a little amiss as well - the clubs were a force to be reckoned with right into the mid-80s.
I know I tend to be pessimistic, largely thanks to the shitty nights I've had a some clubs, but complacency is irresponsible.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Folknacious
Date: 03 May 10 - 11:42 AM

we had four times the number of clubs (at least), ten times the number of enthusiasts and singers (at least) our own labels by the dozen. ditto of magazines and journals and ten times the media presence than we have now.

Oh come on: we must have ten times the number of festivals now with the participation of much larger numbers of people. We have loads of informal sessions, whilst at the same time we have many arts centres putting on professional productions with good sound and lighting. As for record labels, there are hundreds rather than a handful now that artists have the possibility of running their own independent ones, with much higher production standards. We have a number of thriving national news stand specialist magazines (none back then), strong web presences (none back then) and far more sensible general media coverage where the music is treated fairly, even if still not enough. Against that we have a decline in folk clubs. But overall it's immensely better for the music and lots of the music is immensely better. Surely only somebody who lives a fairly sheltered life can't see that?

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 May 10 - 12:02 PM

folknacious,
the important point[ imo],is that folk clubs have an important part to play,being a useful stepping stone for performers,from an informal singers club to a concert situation.
many of the top concert folk performers learned the art of performing in folk clubs.
singers clubs, while useful in that they help beginners who lack confidence will never have the same role.
Folk clubs are important for a number of reasons,some of the reasons I have mentioned before,but they are particularly important for aspiring musicians as a step between singers clubs and big concert venues.
performance arts can be taught,but really the best way to get practical experience is in the more initimate atmosphere of a folk club.
http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: buzzer64
Date: 03 May 10 - 12:51 PM

I was on extended holiday last year in Kent...After two weeks I got brassed off with playing and singing to myself in the awning of our caravan.
Realising that I was suffering from "Folk club withdrawal syndrome", I googled folk clubs in Kent and found that I had a choice. Consequently I spent six very pleasant Wednesday evenings at a very friendly club in Faversham at the Chimbney Boy.

The moral to this happy tale is "If you want a folk club, don't sit there wondering if they are they in decline. GO FIND ONE!

For goodness sake!

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 10 - 12:57 PM

Festivals are not clubs (which I thought this thread was about).
If you see the future of the club scene disapating into festivals - well - we have very different ideas.
The folk revival was launched through the clubs; what success we had came from that fact. A good club drew in local people as audience, singers and dogsbodies, and -if it was outgoing enough, researched and performed local material - you won't get that with festivals. Our roots were in the communities where we ran the clubs - no roots to be had in festivals (unless you want to run them weekly - or monthly, at a stretch).
Hundreds of record labels my arse - performers are putting out their own material under their own logo and at their own expense and distribution, usually as 'vanity publications' - is that what you are referring to? The old performers (the ones we cut our teeth on) would not have had a look in (nor would any other performer for that matter).
The strength of the revival lay totally in a good, welcoming club with good residents (where guests were an option not a necessity). There was never any talk, as there has been on some threads, of not letting some of the lesser experienced local singers performing on a guest night, as has been suggested elsewhere.
"thriving national news stand specialist magazines (none back then)".
Really - did I imagine picking up folk review from my local newsagent (didn't bother with Dallas's Folk News; thought it was rubbish. The rest you could subscibe to or pick up at your local club (rather than wait till next years festival came along).   
"strong web presences (none back then)"
Can't have web presence without a web; whether we have made the best use of what we have is another question which probably needs another thread.
One thing that the clubs did produce was a group of exeptional researchers Vic Gammon, Bob Thomson, George Deacon, Roy Palmer, Peter Hall.... all adding invaluable information and material to our enjoyment and understanding of our music.
I notice that you haven't commented on the fact that the clubs and supporters of the music have reached anorexic proportions, so I presume you accept that point.
As for our media presence - gone, and never called me mother!
I had no intention of getting involved in this thread but the smug complacency finally got to me.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Marje
Date: 03 May 10 - 02:30 PM

I don't think there's any cause for complacency, but at the same time it's important to appreciate that some of the good stuff that originated in clubs now takes place in other settings.

For instance, researching and presenting local material: the Baring-Gould Song School, run by the Wren trust, takes place for a week each autumn in Devon to do exactly that. The results are presented, along with much other local material, at the weekend festival that follows it. I dare say other regional organisations such as Folkworks and Folk South West have similar initiatives.

There's now a degree in Folk and Traditional music at Newcastle University, offering opportunities for serious study and research that were undreamed-of in the 1970s.

Clubs are less numerous and less popular, but sessions are thriving, and far more abundant that a few decades ago.

And although festivals may not have much in the way of roots in the local community, they now serve a "folk community" from across the country. Anyone who goes to festivals even once or twice a year knows that they'll renew contacts and musical links with old friends and fellow musicians/singers. There's a strong folk-interest national network which is supported by both festivals and the internet in a way that simply wasn't possible when local clubs were the focus of most folk activity.

So it's fair comment to say that folk clubs have decreased in importance, but it's a mistake to assume that all the things that clubs used to do have declined in similar measure: much of the activity and interest continues, but in different forms.

Marje

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 10 - 02:56 PM

Marje,
I see no reason why clubs and festivals can't exist side by side - they always did. I heard some of the legendary singers at Keele, Loughborough, Sutton Bonnington, Whitby - et al, but, while the performances were great, they were oh so impersonal - a long week-end of concerts with a few singarounds thrown in - and they might as well have been held on Saturn for all the local input we got.
"they now serve a "folk community" whatever that means. I think the last thing folk needs at the moment is a bunch of folkies who "Vant to be alone" - or at least, among their own kind. If the folk music scene is ailing, as I believe it to be, the last thing it needs is isolation from the world in general (unless it has contacted cholera,).
I've never been to any of the Wren Trust knees-ups, but I know and respect some of the people involved and know their links with the local community - not the feed-back I am getting from some of the comments here.
"but sessions are thriving, and far more abundant than a few decades ago."
Is this true, do you think? I was involved in singaround-type clubs a few decades ago. I preferred the more structured ones, but that's me.
I believe a well-run club with residents who don't fall below a set (not unreachable) standard will achieve more in one night than all your festivals and star guests rolled into one - and it's far more satisfying to make something work yourself rather than get somebody in to do it for you, or swan off once a year to be with annually familiar faces.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 May 10 - 04:28 PM

JC:
"but sessions are thriving, and far more abundant than a few decades ago." Is this true, do you think?

Jim - undoubtedly true in many areas, certainly very true in my area. The Lewes Saturday Club session list has 24 entries - nearly all in Sussex with one or two in adjoining Kent and Hampshire areas. Very many of them are English tune sessions, but you'll also find some Irish and French sessions listed. There are also other quasi-sessions which aren't in this list, but which make excellent music. For example, drop into the Snowdrop in Lewes on a Wednesday evening to hear fiddler Ben Paley and guitarist Tab Hunter play a riveting set of Irish, Old-time and Swedish music with friends turning up to join in.

Now, I can't speak for all areas of England, but this level of session activity is much higher round here than it was - to quote you: "a few decades ago". My problem at the moment is getting a grip on my time and resisting the temptation to be out every night of the week at a club or a session. Here's my choice of clubs and sessions for next week - all within reasonable striking distance of my house:

Monday 10th May: Trevor Arms, Glynde - English tunes session; White Horse, Bodle Street Green (singers' night)

Tuesday 11th May: Elephant & Castle, Lewes - concertinas session; Amberley Folk Club (guest: Sarah MacDougall); Six Bells Folk'n Blues Club, Chiddingly (singers' night); Cellarfolk Song Club, Round Georges, Brighton

Wednesday 12th May: Black Horse, Lewes - Appalachian string band traditional session; Snowdrop, Lewes - Ben Paley & Tab Hunter & friends; Willows Folk Club, Arundel (singers' night); Mid-Sussex Folk Singers Chorus & Harmony Night - The Fountain Inn, Ashurst; Brighton Singers Club, The Pond, Brighton

Thursday 13th May: Royal Oak, Lewes (guest: Paul Burgess)

Friday 14th May: Seaford Folk Club (guest: Hilary Spencer & Grant Baynam); Black Horse, Lewes - Appalachian string band traditional session

Saturday 15th May: Lewes Saturday Folk Club (guest: John Joseph); A Playford Dance - Sussex Folk Association, Danny House, Hurstpierpoint

Sunday 16th May: Horsham Folk Club (song & dance session with ceilidh band)

The scene is bustling with activity. There's a huge number of dedicated and talented performers in attendance - playing and singing traditional music.

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 10 - 04:55 PM

Will,
Not disputing for a minute that there are plenty of sessions now - just the suggestion that they are more abundant than in the past - I never had any problem finding them when/if I wanted them.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Will Fly
Date: 03 May 10 - 05:03 PM

Jim - were you based in or around London at the time of which you speak? I can recall several sessions there in the late 60s (particularly "hard-core" Irish!) which would bear out your view. I've no idea what the session was like in say, Liverpool or Manchester at that same time.

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 03 May 10 - 05:20 PM

"if every professional and semi pro singer of pro standard,went out once a week and did one floor spot in a local folk club,the standard of singing would improve immediately.
if folk clubs are a place where we earn our living,it seems sensible to try and keep the standard high,by puutting a little effort into supporting folk clubs,by doing a weekly floor spot to help them thrive."
Well said that chap.

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Tootler
Date: 03 May 10 - 07:03 PM

This talk of floor singers and residents and audiences and guests was all very fine, but it wasn't like that everywhere.

I belonged for a while to a folk club in a remote part of the UK. The local population was small so the membership was small, about 15 - 20 I would think. There was no way we could have guests, we were too far from anywhere and the cost would have been prohibitive. I don't think we even thought about it. There were no residents as such and no floor singers or audience in the way it is described elsewhere. We were all residents/floor singers and we were all audience. Essentially we entertained each other and had great fun doing it.

When I started going to folk clubs again recently, what I came across was mainly singarounds and it was not that different from what I knew back in the 1960's. Most clubs locally seem to be a mixture of singarounds with periodic guest nights, some on alternate weeks others have a guest less frequently, typically once a month. There are plenty of clubs locally and I could certainly be somewhere every night.

Festivals are something I hadn't come across and there are certainly plenty of them and I know people who seem to spend the summer in their campervans going from festival to festival. It seems that, as others have said, that it's the festivals rather than the clubs where a lot of the younger folk musicians "cut their teeth". With the number of festivals around, it should be possible for newcomers to get gigs at the smaller festivals if they are sufficiently determined and develop their skills and build their name from there. There are clubs that book younger performers, so it's probably a mix. Something else that needs to be recognised is that it's not only folk musicians that struggle to make a living from performing. It's true in all musical genres. The daughter of a friend of ours is a cellist and has been through the music school system, but she still has to make her living by a bit of this and a bit of that. She once said to me that she has to "sell her soul" to earn a living.

Overall, although folk music does not have the high profile it had in the 1960's, there is certainly plenty of activity. Yes things have changed and you have to accept that. Not all changes are necessarily for the better, but neither are they necessarily for the worse. Change happens and things move on and we cannot bring back the past. Nevertheless, there are plenty of people playing traditional tunes and singing traditional songs and that can only be a good thing.

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 04 May 10 - 04:44 AM

Tootler
Enjoyed that perspective above.

reading a lot of these threads of similar subject I get a feeling that the Audience only,thread participants, are a lot more demanding and less tolerant than the musicians /Singers.
Have I misunderstood the gist of it?

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 10 - 05:12 AM

Will,
Sorry - I always do this - get involved in an interesting discussion which I can't finish (off across the Shannon for a couple of days break shortly).
Yes, my experience was mainly in London, where there was a great mix of all sorts. I know there were session type clubs elsewhere, but I can't speak with any experience how many, which is why I asked the question.
I have to say I am a bit ambivilent about these as, while I enjoy them greatly (when the singing is good), I feel that the future of the clubs lie entirely in lifting singing standards - you will not maintain and build your audience levels with poor singing, no matter how good the material at hand. It takes at least three well-sung songs to lift the evening after a poorly sung one.
While I want to see new singers flood the scene, I am totally against the clubs being used as rehersal platforms, which, sometimes they are.
I felt that the clubs I was involved in encouraged new singers by running workshops where they could develop rather than put them in front of audiences before they were able.
I don't think you judge the success of the music by a specific club, some clubs can be doing well while the whole scene can be bombing: the litmus test has to be how well all the clubs are doing and how many of them there are.
If they are getting less and less (as I get the impression they are) and the standard is dropping rather than improving, you are in freefall and need to get a grip, and the first step is to assess where you are honestly, not through rose-coloured glasses (you can get them in Specsaver).
Sorry, a bit garbled.
I'm off,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Marje
Date: 04 May 10 - 05:33 AM

I agree completely with Jim (if you're still there, Jim!) about the standard of singing. But we still need to find the good singers. Younger people are much more likely to play insturments and much less likely to sing than their parent's generation were, so song clubs tend to be attended mainly by the over-50s. This may be because there's a lot less singing in schools now, certainly once you get to secondary age.

I think another thing that has contributed to the decline in singing in clubs is the number of community and folk-based choirs around. This new wave of choirs tends not to have auditions, and many don't require the members to read music, so they're much more accessible than many of the more conventional choral socieities.

Lots of people who want to find a non-threatening, friendly environment where they can sing with others are now joining such choirs rather than looking to folk clubs, as some of them might have done in the past, and so they never get to the point where they want to sing solo or "perform" alone.

For the moment I'm not commenting on how much of all this is desirable, or whether the situation is better or worse than 30 years ago. I'm just giving another couple of reason why song clubs are struggling and less numerous than in the past.

Marje

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: GUEST,Essex girl
Date: 04 May 10 - 06:33 AM

Two reason clubs are in deline : Drink Drive Laws. I have to travel at least 15 miles to club or session (no public transport in the ev
enings).
No job, so now only visit a club when an artist is one I want to see badly enough to pay the admitance fee/raffle ticket/ parking ect.

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Howard Jones
Date: 04 May 10 - 08:27 AM

I'm interested in what Marje has to say about community choirs. When I was active in folk clubs in the 70s and 80s I don't recall many people going to folk clubs in order to find "a non-threatening, friendly environment where they can sing with others". Most of them went, so far as I could tell, because they enjoyed listening to, and in some cases playing and singing, folk music.

It seems possible that over time the clubs came to be taken over by people whose motivation was to find somewhere they could perform, and who were less interested in the music itself. Hence the proliferation of singarounds. I wonder whether these are the same people someone else mentioned who stay away from the club on guest nights.

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Marje
Date: 04 May 10 - 10:50 AM

I know I'm speculating somewhat, Howard, but my recollection of clubs in the past (and some pub folk band evenings) is that there was quite a bit of chorus-singing and joining-in. People could start like that, and then, when ready, move on to singing solo. Such people now have the alternative of joining a choir where they get lots of opportunity to sing along with others (in some cases, they're doing arrangements of folk/traditional/world material), and that's maybe what suits them best.

And I suppose that does still leave all those who want to perform, and possibly (relatively) fewer who want to join in choruses etc. I'm not convinced that singarounds are proliferating now, but there are now "acoustic" and "open mic" clubs where some of these singers will go. And as you suggest, a number of these are people who aren't really interested in guest nights, they just want to do what they do.

And at the other extreme there are also large numbers of non-participant folkies - people who will attend and enjoy folk concerts or guest nights, but purely as audience - they'd run a mile if asked to sing something thelselves, or (in many cases) even join in a chorus.

I's still not saying which of these changes I welcome, I'm simply saying that there are lots of valid ways of making and enjoying folk/traditional music that were either unavailable or less accessible a generation ago.

Marje

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Ian Hendrie
Date: 04 May 10 - 10:57 AM

I think I'm the 'someone else' in Howard's previous comment. I went to a local club last night to see a well-known act (a wow at festivals so their web-site says) and they were fantastic. However, there were only two dozen (or less!) in the audience and I had to sit through four songs by a singer who regularly attends the singaround sessions. I didn't pay to listen to him and two songs would have been quite enough. And he seemed to have disappeared before the evening was over as he wasn't there when the artists were thanked at the end. Also there were few other regular singers in attendance.

I don't necessarily agree with Howard that these people are 'less interested in the music'. I tend to think that some of them are more interested in what they are doing and concerned about massaging their egos.

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 May 10 - 11:07 AM

I wonder whether these are the same people someone else mentioned who stay away from the club on guest nights.

In some cases, yes! In my limited experience (I only help run 1 folk club) there are people who are not interested in coming when there is a guest on. These are generaly

1. Those who only want to perform
2. Those who cannot (or will not) pay the price when a guest is on and
3. Those who like the more relaxed atmosphere of a singers night

I would never say if they are right or wrong - Just different from the 'core' who attend whatever is happening.

There is also the converse - Those who will only attend guest nights. Again there may be number of reasons for this but the one I hear most often is that they prefer a 'professional' performance by a paid guest.

We did toy with the idea singers nights featuring some of the more 'professional' floor singers doing extended spots, but decided it would be too difficult. Can you imagine the upset it would cause if someone who believed they should get an extended spot didn't? We had to settle on a policy of full guest night or full singers night for the peace of the club!

There are, however, some people that are regular singers at our club that we have also booked as guests. These tend to be those who have already had some sucess performing guest spots at other clubs or who occasionaly come to our place as floor singers as well - Coming back to Dick's point that the pro's and semi-pro's can occasionaly do small clubs a favour by appearing as floor singers. We do not expect it by any means but we always welcome such a visit:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 May 10 - 11:14 AM

DeG - interestingly, the Willows Folk Club in Arundel has started including "showcase" evenings, when a local regular or a couple of local regulars will get, say, 20-25 minutes of their own on a singers' night (singers' nights alternate with paid guest nights) to do a mini guest spot. So it can work. Obviously the organisers have to be fairly tactful as to how they do it, but they get a regular full house and a regular good crowd each week, so it appears to be working OK without stirring up jealousies. The local Washington Music Club, which meets fortnightly, has started doing the same.

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 May 10 - 11:21 AM

Thanks Will - We will re-visit the idea then!

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Will Fly
Date: 04 May 10 - 01:51 PM

DeG - the contact at the Willows is Chris Davies - good guy - [e-mail]

Cheers!

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: MikeL2
Date: 04 May 10 - 02:45 PM

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: David el Gnomo - PM
Date: 04 May 10 - 11:07 AM

<" Can you imagine the upset it would cause if someone who believed they should get an extended spot didn't? ">

Hi DNG

As I said earlier we ran guest nights at least 3 weeks in every four.
In those days floor singers knew which guests pulled in the biggest crowds and they all came for those nights.

So we/I had to allocate spots almost every time. Most times we had to disappoint somebody. It was difficult to be completely fair to everyone but we must have been reasonably good at it because we didn't have any real problems.

The worst problem was that some of our regular singers were not as good as the ones who came for the best guest nights. But I always tried to encourage the regulars. In some cases I gave them my spots.

Interesting to see that now-a-days the problem appears to be the other way round.

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Betsy
Date: 04 May 10 - 07:57 PM

I'll throw the observation into a different direction. When I was a kid almost 60 years ago my Nanna used to go to something called a Darby and Joan club. I understood that she met-up with people of her own age /peer group and various people bashed-out songs on the piano - songs that they all knew and could join in with i.e. a good sing-song.
I have no way of knowing whether youngsters think we have gone down a similar path albeit with expensive guitars & instuments (replacing the piano).
"Everyone" could play the piano then, much as today when "everyone" can knock out a song on a guitar .
Are we all just drifting away as something to be distantly recalled as I have just done with the Darby and Joan reference ?
A slightly depressing thought , but we perhaps we didn't ( or couldn't - with the advent of the electonic /computer age ) do enough to encourage youngsters to join in with our music.
Time will tell but I feel that this cycle is unstoppable - and will need to be completely resurrected in later years .
At least there is enough source material been left in our tracks , to enable a new wave to be quickly on its' feet without doing the scrounging and searching for songs which many of us have tried to do in the post 50's /60's revival.
Good luck to 'em

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 05 May 10 - 01:49 AM

We've had a few showcase or spotlight nights at the Lewes Saturday Folk Club for good local singers as well: people who aren't likely to want a full booking of 2 x 45 minute sets, but are well-liked and have earned some extra time by the quality of their performances. It's working nicely. I'm not sure why people's egos should get dented as there's always an opportunity to be chosen in the future.

Valmai (Lewes)

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 05 May 10 - 03:47 AM

"I'm not sure why people's egos should get dented as there's always an opportunity to be chosen in the future"

Sounds fair enough at your gathering VG.
Maybe its not the same at other places?

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Will Fly
Date: 05 May 10 - 04:11 AM

In a way, it's the same problem if you get a lot of floor singers turning up at a guest night. Time has to be allocated to the paid guest(s) and therefore you can only fit so many floor singers in. Most club MCs/organisers will do their best to give each floor singer a turn but it may just not be possible. In which case, there have to be some criteria for not picking people - and this will vary from club to club. In some cases, it may be ability.

If I go to a "strange" club, i.e. one out of my usual range, to see a guest act, I never assume I'll get a guest spot - even if the club website assures me that visitors are welcome - and always email to see if a spot is acceptable. I have to report that these clubs have been very accommodating - like the Ram Club last week where residents and local regulars weren't able to play because Alan and I were one of only three floor spot performers. We very much appreciated this, and I would assume/hope that those locals or regulars who didn't get a spot that night understood the decisions.

If a club has a regular community of singers and local performers, then it's not impossible to arrange a showcase night to everyone's satisfaction. I think, if I were in the position of organising such evenings and a local 'beginner' asked for a long showcase spot, I think there would have to be some tactful conversation about readiness to perform, etc. Not an easy job, I grant you - but the lure of such a spot in the future might energise and inspire the fledgling performer on to greater efforts. I've certainly seen some new performers at the Willows (for example) come on in leaps and bounds in a few months by being given short floor spots.

In the 60s and 70s, the clubs I went to were all place where you could cut your performance teeth in a friendly and welcoming atmosphere - and I also recall that most of the organisers would give very direct and honest feedback if they thought you could do better. I remember playing a rather poor attempt at "Angi" at Leeds University Folk Club around 1965. At the end of the evening, the organiser remarked to me with a slight smile, "Well, you got away with that one, didn't you?" I felt both chastened and determined to do better! Of course it was also my misfortune to be playing on the same night as another floor singer called Stefan Sobell...

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Tootler
Date: 05 May 10 - 04:11 AM

Locally to me, the showcase or spotlight spots are often known as hotspots, but serve much the same function of giving local folk club regulars an extended spot without a full booking.

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 May 10 - 04:23 AM

We have a very easy policy of determining who sings when we have a guest on no matter how many singers turn up - There are only 3 floor spots! Probably why not all the singers turn up on guest nights but people who do not want to see non-paid singers, do come:-) Firsct come first served or pre-book if ever you want a spot on guest night.

DeG

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 10 - 04:06 PM

Such a lot to take in!! I agree with much of what has been said, but it does strike me that a person's point of view is limited to the area which they have visited. I know the UK is only small but I haven't seen half of it yet and I'm sure there are some really good clubs I will never get to! Does this apply to anyone else. Locally we have a different club every night, all within easy reach. They all offer something slightly different but I enjoy them all.

---

Please note that anonymous posting is no longer allowed at Mudcat. Use a consistent name [in the 'from' box] when you post, or your messages risk being deleted.
Thanks.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: GUEST,Aeola
Date: 06 May 10 - 01:06 PM

Sorry to Joe Offer, hadn't realised my name had disappeared!!

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: GUEST,The Smiler
Date: 06 May 10 - 04:04 PM

I don't beleive there is a folk club decline.

Most folk clubs, support people to song and play. Very often, having a guest on is not what folk clubs want, as they want to do singarounds.

Consequently, people who go along to sing or play, do not necessarily want to listen to a guest unless they are really good.

If a folk club puts a guest on, they owe it to the paying public to put only the best support acts on. Anything less than that will stop the future audience coming along in the future. They do not want to listen to people who are unable to sing or play.

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: Howard Jones
Date: 07 May 10 - 05:30 AM

Sorry, Smiler, I disagree. Of course the situation varies from one area to another, and there are some places (such as Lewes) which are very well served. However my experience is that folk clubs have declined, both in number and quality of music. In my area there are fewer clubs overall than there used to be, and far fewer clubs which put on professional guests (and then only occasionally) - there used to be several which booked professional guests most weeks.

If people want to get together for a singaround without a guest that's absolutely fine, and it can produce some very enjoyable evenings. However without being elitist, a bunch of amateur performers are never going to achieve the same musical standards as a professional guest - while they may have one or two who can come close, the majority will not. They may still be good amateurs, but taken as a whole the highest musical quality comes from the professionals and the better semi-professionals.

You are right to say that if a folk club books a guest, they owe it to the paying public to put on only the best support acts. In my experience, that was what usually happened. It was usually done tactfully, and most performers (admittedly not all!) are self-aware enough to recognise when they are not quite up to the required standard. I never knew anyone take offence at not being given a floor spot on guest nights, and never took it for granted that I would get one myself.

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: evansakes
Date: 07 May 10 - 03:19 PM

"most performers (admittedly not all!) are self-aware enough to recognise when they are not quite up to the required standard"

How I wish that were the case, Howard....I have to tell you it's far from our experience. The vast majority of people who climb onstage in any capacity seem to think that they're worth a headline gig or (at worst) a support/showcase spot.

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 03:44 PM

Late again, but never mind . . .


The Morning Star is (was) the paper of the Communist Party

No it wasn't (isn't). It was produced by a co-operative society (the Morning Star Co-operative Society, to be original). It sponsored a club, and sessions at the Metropolitan, the site of which I pointed out to visiting performers on the way to Islington Folk Club last week. For most of the time that I was a journalist there (including the seven years during which I compiled the folk column) I was a Labour Party member. When I was leaving to go back to university, Karl Dallas, who had agreed to replace me, wandered down to CP headquarters to rejoin (having been expelled for Maoist tendencies). He said they didn't really seem to care whether he joined or not but were glad enough to take his subscription. It is interesting (or maybe not) that the route from my house to The Horseshoe passes all the venues that I can remember where Islington Folk Club ever stood. And many others, all now bereft of any live music whatsoever. Indeed, along the length of Upper Street it was once possible to stagger from bar to bar and do a song. It is not, however, necessarily a Bad Thing that this is no longer the case. Quality control is winning out. Just.

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 04:57 PM

"a commie rag",
Ralphie showering the Morning Star with praise.
That phrase is reminiscent of Macarthyism.

Subject: RE: folk club decline uk
From: glueman
Date: 06 Jun 10 - 07:58 PM

I fail to see how a folk club is any more authentic than a festival. Neither have anything to do with the way folk music was originally generated and partaken of.
This thread has more in common with keeping the 60s and 70s alive than traditional music, which is in rude good health considering the onslaught of other forms.