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Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s

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(origins) Origins: Down in a Coal Mine (J. B. Geoghegan) (22)


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Subject: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 06 May 10 - 10:30 AM

This started out as an attempt to trace Geoghegan's movements as a 'travelling singer', as he styled himself. However, it became an investigation of a man who, quite simply, lived a double life. I suggested in a previous thread that there was more than meets the eye about him, I never realised until now just how much.

He was born in Salford about 1816 (some sources state Barton-on-Irwell, but both he and his sister Ellen claimed Salford as their birthplace). His father, James, was a Fustian Cutter from Dublin (b.1791) living at Phillips St., Barton in 1851; his mother, Mary Ann, was from Manchester.

According to sources, "before he reached manhood took to writing songs upon current events". He certainly seems to have left home at an early age and was married, to Elizabeth (a 'vocalist'), before he was 19.

The 'other woman', Mary Ann Birchall, appears on the scene about 1852, aged 17. In that same year Geoghegan fathered children both by his wife and Mary Ann, a pattern that was to continue until 1871, when Elizabeth died. He married Mary Ann that same year.

In all he fathered 21 known children: 9 by Elizabeth and 12 by Mary Ann, 10 of which were born whilst still married to Elizabeth.

Fate was unkind to his family; at least four of his sons reached adulthood but died before reaching 40. At least three of his children were deaf and dumb from birth (tragic enough, but even more so, given their father's occupation). Only one child, Frederick, showed any musical inclination; he was styled 'violinist' on the 1861 census.

Mary Ann died 1889 in Stoke, where Geoghegan was manager of the Gaiety Theatre. He moved back to Bolton and died there the same year. His death was widely reported, meriting two articles in the Otaga Witness, New Zealand!

A grandson, Stephen Birchall Geoghegan, died in Bolton in 1964 aged 77. There are Geoghegans in Bolton to this day, probably Joseph's descendants.

The following is a list of his known whereabouts, based on family events. Given that he had two families, entries in the first column relate to Elizabeth's, those in the second refer to Mary Ann's:


1835 Preston
1837 Salford
1839 Preston
1841 Manchester
1847 Liverpool
1851 Liverpool
1852 Salford    Bolton
1855 Liverpool
1856 Liverpool
1859 Manchester Bolton
1860             Salford
1861 Liverpool   Salford
1863             Salford
1867             Salford
1868             Salford
1871 Liverpool   Bolton (Elizabeth dies, marries Mary Ann)
1872             Bolton
1874             Bolton


1888             Stoke
1889             Stoke, Bolton (death of JB and Mary Ann)


He vanishes from the radar between 1874 and 1888 (I cannot find him on the 1881 census). He may have spent some time in Sheffield during this period.

Ironically, one of his songs was entitled IT'S REALLY A DREADFUL AFFAIR - quite apt really.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 May 10 - 04:39 PM

Sminky,
Have you got a comprehensive list of his songs?
If he was in Sheffield I would have said 1860s was more likely based on songs he wrote about it. Do you have any of the sheet music. I have some but there are others I would be interested in.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 07 May 10 - 05:56 AM

Steve,

No, certainly not a comprehensive list. Here's your list and mine combined (from the other thread):

Allah, guard the Prince of Wales. National song [begins: " Ten thousand thousand welcomes " ]. (1876)
Benjamin and Maria or The Sheffield Hoax
Better late than never [Song, begins: " What folly 'tis for man to fret " ] (1860)
Black diamond
Bread and Cheese and Ale
Brigham Young. [Song.] (1873)
Cockles & Mussels. Song [begins: "Of all merry blades"] (1876)
The Convivial Man. [Song, begins: " They tell me " .] (1869)
A Diamond in the Rough. [Song, begins: "I'll sing you".] (1876)
Don't say who gave you the tip. [Song, begins: "I'm going to sing".] (1878)
Down in a Coal Mine. [Song, begins: "I am a jovial collier lad".] (1873)
England is England still. (1886)
England with all thy faults I love thee still (1875)
The Frenchman, 1878
Glossop Road. (1860)
A hundred years ago. (1860)
I am a merry little man
It's A way we have in the Army (1863),
It's really a dreadful affair
John Barleycorn is a hero bold. (1860)
Johnny, I hardly know you. [Song, begins: "While on the road".] (1867)
Lancashire Witch
Lines on the Flood
Marigold
Measure your Wants by your Means, [song] (1860)
The men of merry England. (1858)
The Merriest Man in the Company
A Message from the Sea
The Name of England ... Song [begins: " There is a world known little isle " ] (1876)
Napoleon talks of War, Boys. (1860)
A Novel Idea. Song [begins: " Ah! gentlemen " ]. (1873)
Oh! Marigold. [Song, begins: "Tho' I'm a blighted trumpet flower".] (1873)
Old Adam was father of all. [Song, begins: "What a wonderful world".] (1876)
Old England's future king. Patriotic song, [begins: " Arouse, ye loyal Englishmen " ] (1863)
Pat works on the Railway, 1854
The Queen of merry England. (1860)
Rock the Cradle John.
Roger Ruff, or a drop of good beer. [Song, begins: "I'm Roger Ruff".] (1860)
The Same Old Game. [Song, begins: "When I was quite a lad".] (1876)
Sons of Old John Bull
The Style, by Jove! [Song, begins: " You talk about your howling swells " .] (1866)
Ten Thousand Miles away. [Song begins: "Sing oh!"] (1870)
They all have a mate but me. [Song, begins: "Kind Christians all".] (1876)
Time works wonders [song, begins: " A friendless youth " ] (1869)
The Toilers of the Sea
True hearts are always trumps. song
Volunteers rouse & be ready. (1860)
The Waggoner. [Song, begins: "True hearts are always trumps".] (1860)
Wasn't she a Beauty

To which we can add 'The Manchester Ship Canal' which I discovered yesterday in Notes and Queries, Manchester Times, January 22, 1892.

W.R. Consterdine, Collyhurst, writes "The song 'The Manchester Ship Canal' was Written and sung by J.B.Geoghegan (mine host of the Varieties, Churchgate, Bolton), at Benjamin Lang's Music Hall, Victoria Bridge, Manchester, in 1841."

He goes on to give the text, which is identical to the Bodleian Broadside The Seaport Town of --- (with 'Manchester' inserted into the blanks). Assuming the date to be correct - and JB was living on Deansgate, Manchester in 1841 - this would be the earliest dateable Geoghegan song that I've come across so far.

As you say, JBG was probably in Sheffield in the 1860's, though there is no hint of this in the family records (perhaps I was being conservative when I said he was living a double life!). And sometime amongst all this he is supposed to have been a Music Hall manager in Bolton for 25 years!


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 May 10 - 06:44 PM

Paul Davenport tells me there are lots of Geoghegans in Sheffield. He taught some of them. Joe was a busy man! Gives the term 'Father of the Music Hall' an extra dimension.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,LNewby
Date: 11 May 10 - 11:20 AM

Hi,

I am a descendent (probably) of J B Geoghegan. My great, great great grandmother was Kathleen Birchall Geoghegan, daughter of Joseph Bryan and Mary Ann Birchall. Kathleen was known as Kate and married Matthew 'Merry Matt' Hall, a performer and theatre manager - all 5 of their children followed them into the theatre as well.

Unfortunately no father's name is given on Kathleens birth ceritificate, won which she is simply Birchall(1854 West Derby, Lancs (8b 389))
but to all intents and purposes J B was her father. From 1861 he was living with her mtoher, and fathered most of he

I've been doing quite a bit of research on Joseph Bryan and his family, and I'd be fascinated to hear anything you have found out that might be of interest to me and my family tree! Reply to the thread :)

Thanks,

Lauren


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST
Date: 11 May 10 - 11:26 AM

Oh, I can also add a bit of info for you which takes J B down south:

Geoghegan ? Birchall 1861 Census

1861 census ? Aldershot, Surrey
J B Geoghegan, 44, vocalist (head) - married
M A Birchall, 27, vocalist (lodger) ? married ???
Kate Birchall, 5
John Birchall, 7 months
J Bainter(?) (male) 28, vocalist ? married


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,LNewby
Date: 11 May 10 - 11:39 AM

That last post was from me by the way.

Seemingly I'm going to have a million things to ask/say about everything that's been mentioned here, so probably should have waited until I'd digested it, but anyway.

Firts thing, I'm quite intrigued by your numbers of children, as I only have 16 - 9 for Mary Ann and 7 for Elizabeth. Can you post me a list of them all?

I was going to comment as well, that while his children were being born and so on in all these different places, there's no reason to assume that he was there the whole time. As you mention, he was already living a double wife. There's no reason why he couldn't have gone off travelling leaving both women and the hoardes of children wherever there were!

I think I found one reference to him in the Stage archives, which don't start until the 1880s, but I can't seem to lay my hands on it at the moment. But I've certainly had no luck locating him on the 1881 census, despite trying every single spelling I can think of.

It's news to me that he managed a theatre in Stoke, but there it has a corpped up as one of the key places where my rather peripatetic family seem to return to alot so we had assumed there was family connection of some sort, so thanks for confirming that.

Can't think of anyhting else right now. But look forwrad to eharing from you soon.

LN


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 11 May 10 - 11:50 AM

Hi Lauren. You won't believe this, but I came across the following this very day:

"Mr.J.B.Geoghegan, Comic Vocalist and Author of numerous Popular Songs, and Miss M.A.Birchall, Serio-Comic and Ballads, will be at liberty on Monday next, November 4, after a most successful Engagement of Eleven Months, at the Victory Hall, Aldershott.
Can engage separate or jointly.

Address, No.1 Union-road, Aldershott"

Era Magazine, November 3rd, 1861

'Miss Birchall', of course, is his bit of stuff whom he eventually married. On the same census night, his wife Elizabeth was stuck at home in Liverpool with six of their kids.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,LNewby
Date: 11 May 10 - 11:59 AM

One more thing, I did find a reference to him in a local directory, in 1876. I tried to copy the image here but it won't let me.
So here's a transcription:

Geghegan, Joseph B, manager Theatre of Varieties; ho 19 Portugal street

That's in Bolton in 1876. I've not had much look workign out what was at this address, but I'm guessing someone on here might know?

Lauren


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST
Date: 11 May 10 - 12:01 PM

Wow, I love that! Thanks!


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 11 May 10 - 12:12 PM

Lauren, by 1878 he had moved from Portugal Street to 107 Bury Road.
He was definitely in Bolton throughout 1881 (Manager of the Museum Concert Hall) so why he doesn't appear on the census I don't know.

He was in Bradford in 1860, Hull in 1861, Bradford again in 1864.

Some of my notes are at home, so I can't get them until tomorrow. I'm pretty sure he had a brother John, who was a Lodging-house keeper in Oldham.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 May 10 - 12:24 PM

Hi Sminky,
Anything I can be looking for regarding his stay in Hull in 1861?

Artful codger and I are working on Harry Clifton's sheet music at the moment. A contemporary of JBG, he seems to have other similarities with HC.
I have several copies/originals of JBG's sheet music that I can post when we've finished the Clifton material.

Originals
John Barleycorn is a Hero Bold
The Men of Merry England
The Same Old Game (sung by Sam Torr)
Ten Thousand Miles Away

Copies
Cockles and Mussels
Down in a Coal Mine

I have seen a sheet music original of 'When Johnny Comes Marching Home' with a brightly coloured litho of soldiers. It was for sale at the music/book shop down Bell St, Edgware Road in London, but too expensive for my pocket, about £15 if I remember rightly.

I also have the words of others of his songs on broadsides.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 11 May 10 - 12:40 PM

Steve,

JBG was at the Mechanics' Institute in November 1861, along with Miss Birchall (Serio-Comic).

In 1875:

"Mr. Sam Torr is nightly appearing with the greatest success at the Mechanics', Hull.
Agent, Charles Roberts.
London, Boxing Night.
New songs in preparation by J.B.Geoghegan, Esq"

Era Magazine, October 31st 1875


Regarding songs:

"Now Ready. J.B.Geoghegan's Song 'Brigham Young'"

Era Magazine, Sept 1870

"NOTICE. Having printed numerous copies of J.B.Geoghegan's song 'Carried her to Belle Vue Jail' without his permission, I hereby make this apology, and agree to give him Two Pounds in consideration that he takes no further proceedings.

(Signed) J.H.Millburn, Comic Vocalist. September 21st, 1865"

Era Magazine, Sept 24th 1865.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 11 May 10 - 12:48 PM

"Mr J.W.Rowley
Pullan's Varieties, Bolton.
NOTICE - Mr.J.B.Geoghegan's last song has been purchased by J.W.R. 'Have a little bit on me'.
A.Maynard; or, as above."

Era, Oct 13th, 1878

"Mr. Joe M'Dowell
Scotia Grand Hall, Glasgow and Brown's Royal Hall, nightly.
New Songs by J.B.Geoghegan, 'The City Bank Director', a big hit."

Era, Jan 12th 1879


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,LNewby
Date: 11 May 10 - 01:30 PM

In 1885, his wife Mary Ann is living at 18 Churchgate Bolton, according to the Death certificate of her son Henry, so J B was probably there too?


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: Anglogeezer
Date: 11 May 10 - 03:03 PM

Whilst this is not your Geoghegan I thought you might be interested never the less.
The Compleat Tutor
Its a tutor for the pastoral/bellows blown pipes published in 1745 by John Geoghegan.

regards
Jake


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 12 May 10 - 05:01 AM

Lauren, I've only reached 1882 in Era so far - will carry on today. Incidentally, I had two relatives (unmarried sisters) living at 15 Portugal Street - next door but one to JBG! If you've ever seen any of the Fred Dibnah programmes, Portugal Street is just a stone's throw from his house.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 12 May 10 - 07:05 AM

Another song:

"Many thanks to J.Geoghegan Esq. for permission for Percy Honri to sing his latest song entitled 'England the Haven and Home of the World'."

Era Magazine, Mar 12th 1887

I've just got some fascination info about 'Down in a Coal Mine'. I'll type it up when I get the chance.

JBG "took possession" of the Gaiety, Hanley, on Dec 5th 1887 (he still remained General Manager of the Victoria at Bolton). After his death in 1889, his wife Mary Ann took over, with Dot Geoghegan becoming "the youngest directress in the profession". JBG's funeral took place on January 24th 1889 - he was buried at Heaton Cemetery, Bolton. His widow died at Hanley on Tuesday June 4th 1889. After that there is no further mention of a Geoghegan connection with the Music Hall.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,LNewby
Date: 12 May 10 - 08:32 AM

Ok,

I'm confused on something. I thought we had established that Mary Ann died before JB?:

"Mary Ann died 1889 in Stoke, where Geoghegan was manager of the Gaiety Theatre. He moved back to Bolton and died there the same year. " (from your first post)

Also, I don't think I've come across Dot, she must be one of the children I don't have. How old was she?

Lauren


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 12 May 10 - 09:03 AM

I don't know why I had assumed that Mary had died first. I am happy to correct my error!

Dot may be a grandchild - remember that the JBG production line started in the 1830's!

Family members at JBG's funeral included: Mrs Geoghegan, Miss Amy Geoghegan, Mr and Mrs Barnes, Mr and Mrs Bennett (daughters and son-in-law), Mrs Hodson (daughter).

Interestingly, there was also a Mr E.Abrahams, "missionary for the Bolton, Bury and Rochdale Adult Deaf and Dumb Society".


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 10 - 11:54 AM

I can't find any Dots/Dorothys of a suitable age on the censuses/BMD index etc at the moment, but yes, she could well be a grandchild, given that his second wife is the same age as some of his older children!

Very interesting. Two of his sons by Mary Ann were deaf and dumb from birth - Henry and Thomas. They were actually late discoveries for me, as they don't appear with the family on any of the ensuses, but living instead with various relatives or as lodgers. At first I thought perhaps they had been sort of 'given up' by their families, but increasingly I think this isn't the case. And having someone from such an organisation certainly makes me think not.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 12 May 10 - 12:06 PM

Lauren - there were more than two. May, by his first wife, was "deaf and dumb from birth". Henry, Thomas and Ellen, by his second wife, likewise.

Dot seems to disappear after JBG and Mary Ann die (and she wasn't listed amongst the funeral guests).

Some important new information about Down in a coal mine.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,Lnewby
Date: 12 May 10 - 12:31 PM

Interesting. I seem to have missed Ellen somewhere, I'll have to go back and hunt her down, and i hadn't clocked that May was deaf and dumb. Presumably it was some kind of hereditary thing I guess, from the Geoghegan side.

I've just established that Mrs Bennett was his daughter Annie by Mary Ann.

A lot of his children seemed to have died very young, which is funny when you think that he lived to be so old.

Possibly Dot is an alternative name for someone I reckon.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,Lnewby
Date: 12 May 10 - 12:36 PM

May was by Mary Ann, not Elizabeth, as far as I was aware???


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 10 - 12:37 PM

Here is my list of his family, as I have it:

by Elizabeth 1816 ? 1871
Harriett Geoghegan 1835 ?
Edwin Geoghegan 1837 ? 1872
Frederic Geoghegan 1839 ? 1868
Joseph J Geoghegan 1841 ? 1867
James Geoghegan 1847 ?
Jane Geoghegan 1852 ?
Elizabeth 'Betsey' Geoghegan 1856 ?

Mary Ann Birchall 1835 ?
Henry Birchall Geoghegan 1852 ? 1885
K Geoghegan 1854 ? 1892
Thomas Birchall Geoghegan 1856 ?
Annie Birchall Geoghegan 1859 ?
John Geoghegan 1860 ?
May Geoghegan 1863 ?
Mary Geoghegan 1867 ?
Amy Geoghegan 1868 ?
Marion Geoghegan 1870 ?


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 12 May 10 - 01:14 PM

Ellen was born in Bolton, 1872. In 1891 she was lodging with James T. Bennett and Annie (nee Geoghegan) at 50 Town Hall Square, Bolton.

I'll try to remember to bring my list in tomorrow!


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 10 - 01:20 PM

Yes, just found it myself.

Also, this is about the Mr E Abrahams who attended J B 's funeral. Quite an important figure it seems...

http://www4.gu.edu.au:8080/adt-root/uploads/approved/adt-QGU20060123.131332/public/04Chapter3.pdf


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 13 May 10 - 05:39 AM

Lauren,

My list is as yours except:

Harriet, Edwin, Frederic, Joseph James and Elizabeth were all baptised on the same day (9-11-1845) at Salford St.Phillips.

William b.23-2-1854, baptised Liverpool St.Peter, 14-6-1854.

Ellen b. Bolton, 1872.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 13 May 10 - 06:34 AM

"New Music

'The Convivial Man', published by Messrs Duff - Mr.J.B.Geoghegan has written the words, and Mr.J.Batchelder composed the music, of this song, which, we are told on the title-page. has been "sung by Mr.Jolly John Nash". A lithograph portrait of that popular "comique" adorns the title page. It is an average production of its particular class."

Era, Aug 9th 1868


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: Artful Codger
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 03:32 AM

Lyrics and MIDI for "Down in a Coal Mine!" (transcribed from Geoghegan sheet music) posted to this (new) thread:
http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=129899

I've also cross-linked to the "Ten Thousand Miles Away" thread, where most of the discussion on this song has previously taken place.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 04:20 PM

Sminky,
Convivial man
That's interesting. Clifton's 'The Commercial Man' is sometimes referred to as 'The Convivial Man'. I wonder if they both came out at about the same time which caused some confusion.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: Artful Codger
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 07:54 PM

More likely is that Clifton just sang both. They appear to be distinct songs, unrelated even by parody. We have at least a partial first line for JBG's "The Convivial Man"--"They tell me"--which contrasts with Clifton's "Hey for fun and jokery" in both tone and rhythm. From the latter line, one might guess that the song was about a convivial man, but the word "convivial" never appears in the lyrics of "The Commercial Man".

As a side note, the Bodley broadside for "The Commercial Man" says it was sung to "Strike for Tyrol and Liberty" (the most famous theme from Rossini's William Tell, also known as the Lone Ranger theme).


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 06:49 AM

Datewise, the earliest mentions I've got are:

Clifton's The Commercial Man is first listed in Era on Aug 5 1866.

"J. Batchelder, composer of The Convivial Man (sung by Jolly Nash). Hardy's Music hall, Manchester." Era, Mar 22 1868.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 03:09 PM

Sminky
I have in my notes that 'Commercial Man' appeared in an Era 1864 entry. It can only have come from you. 1864 also fits with the serial number 519. Its first line is 'Tom Brown was a man you don't meet every day'.
OLIS has a copy of the original.

Looking at Nash's repertoire in Kilgarriff he also sang 'The Concertina Man'. Anybody got a copy of that one?


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: Artful Codger
Date: 03 Jun 10 - 07:16 PM

If that is the first line of Clifton's "The Commercial Man" per OLIS, it isn't the same song as in the Bodley broadside (estimated date c.1860, which could put it too early anyway).


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 05:17 AM

Sorry, the search engine is giving me the hump. I search for 'Commercial Man' and the first occurence is 1866; I wade through the 'Harry Clifton' results and I get this:

"NEW MUSIC
The Commercial Man; or Sold Again.
Comic Song, Written and Composed by Harry Clifton. London: Hopwood and Crew. - We can readily believe the statement on the illustrated title-page of this song, that it has been sung with immense success. We should say that it will be highly popular in commercial rooms generally, to say nothing of the Music Halls."

Era, May 22 1864


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 24 Aug 10 - 09:53 AM

JOSEPH BRYAN GEOGHEGAN

13 April (1889)

The Will of Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, late of New-street, Hanley in the County of Stafford, Licensed Victualler, who died 21 January 1889 at 50 Town-Hall-square, Bolton in the County of Lancashire, was proved at Lichfield by Mary Ann Geoghegan of New-street, Widow, the Relict, the sole Executrix.

Personal Estate £518-7s-9d.


(My punctuation).

Licensed Victualler? Good grief.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,LAUREN NEWBY
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 11:13 AM

In 1890, £518 7s 6d would have the same spending worth of today's £31,045.48


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 26 Aug 10 - 12:16 PM

Lauren - that was just his personal estate (cash, 'chattels' etc). It would not include any property that he might have owned or any business interests he may have had (these would presumably pass to Mary Ann).

It would be interesting to read the will - Lichfield Probate Registry should have a copy unless they it has been deposited elsewhere.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 07 Sep 10 - 05:39 AM

Lauren - here's one for you (just appeared online):

Marriage: 11 Jul 1874 St Peter, Bolton, Lancashire, England

Matthew Hall - 24, Boiler Maker Bachelor of 20 Velvet Walks
Kathleen Birchall Geoghegan - 20, Spinster of 19 Portugal St.
    Groom's Father: John Hall, Cloth Milliner
    Bride's Father: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, Musician
    Witness: Joseph Brian Geoghegan; Ann? Vauxhall Geoghegan
    Married by Banns by: John Stott Lecturer & Curate
    Notes: [The clerk entered the bride's surname as 'Geoghean']
    Register: Marriages 1873 - 1875, Page 126, Entry 252
    Source: Film of the register at Manchester Library


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,LAUREN NEWBY
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 10:40 AM

Great, thanks . Can take a couple of useful nuggets from that!

Lauren


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,LAUREN NEWBY
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 01:30 PM

Sminky,

I was just rereading this snippet:

JBG "took possession" of the Gaiety, Hanley, on Dec 5th 1887 (he still remained General Manager of the Victoria at Bolton). After his death in 1889, his wife Mary Ann took over, with Dot Geoghegan becoming "the youngest directress in the profession". JBG's funeral took place on January 24th 1889 - he was buried at Heaton Cemetery, Bolton. His widow died at Hanley on Tuesday June 4th 1889. After that there is no further mention of a Geoghegan connection with the Music Hall.

Where did the info come from? I was just wondering if it's possible that Mary Ann and Dot are the same person? Surely if she had taken over from her husband running the place, wouldn't she be the directress? I'm not sure about the structure of Music Halls at this time - would there be a separate 'director' job from the manager?

Dot could have been a sort of 'nickname' or an odd abreviation - I know that Mary Ann was often abbreivated to Polly, so Dot isn't that much of a stretch! She would have been about 55 at this point. It doesn't sound particularly young does it? But then we don't know how old any other directresses there were in the profession or indeed how old they were.

She would certainly have been in a position to take over after 40 years as his 'wife' surely?

Just a theory...


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,^&*
Date: 23 Sep 10 - 03:59 PM

FWIW, in Ireland also, "Dot" is usually used as an abbreviation/pet-name for "Dorothy"


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 05:49 AM

Lauren,

Most of the info came from Era Magazine, supplemented by other newspaper articles.

Mary Ann and Dot are definitely not the same person. Here's a chronology relating to the Gaiety Theatre of Varieties, Hanley:

Feb 16 1889 - Mar 16 1889
Proprietress, Mrs Geoghegan
Directress, Miss Dot Geoghegan

Apr 13 1889
Proprietress, Mrs J.B. Geoghegan
Directress, Miss Amy Geoghegan

Apr 27 1889
Proprietress, Mrs J.B. Geoghegan
Directress, Miss Amy Geoghegan
"Closed for extensive alterations"

Jun 4 1889
Mary Ann Geoghegan dies in Hanley.

Aug 10 1889
Lessee, Mr Chas. Hearn
Acting Manager, Mr Barry Ivor

There is no further mention of Amy/Dot Geoghegan (who is probably one and the same person). It's possible that Charles Hearn was renting the place from the Geoghegan family.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 10:22 AM

Here's what happened to Amy:

Amy Birchall Geoghegan (b.1868) married Frank Moore in Liverpool, 1900.

Known children:
Dorothy B. Moore (b. Hornsey, Middlesex, 1901)


Her sister May Geoghegan (b.1863) married Herbert Hulton, architect (b.1858, d.1927 aged 70) in Bolton, 1881.

Known children:
Cecil B. Hulton (b. Finsbury Park, 1883)
Marion Hulton (b. Bolton, 1887. d.1893)
Amy May Hulton (b. Hornsey, Middlesex, 1889. d.1893) [blind from birth]

Amy Moore (nee Geoghegan) and daughter Dorothy were staying with the Hultons at 20 Ridge Road, Hornsey, Middlesex on the 1901 census.

Herbert Hulton d.1927 aged 70 (registered Tonbridge)
May Hulton (nee Geoghegan) d.1931 aged 69 (registered Sevenoaks)


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,Lauren
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 11:06 AM

Wow thanks for that. Yes, I guess Dot is Amy.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 11:27 AM

It's interesting that May Hulton (nee Geoghegan) was 'deaf and dumb since birth' on the 1871 census, but not on subsequent ones. I wonder if she was 'cured'. The family still seemed to be plagued by health problems, however, as evidenced by little Amy May.

On a lighter note - Amy senior was obviously determined to have a Dot in the family!


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,Lauren
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 10:29 AM

I've just found JB on the 1881 census!! He is Using the name Heyes and masquerading as an innkeeper. My interest was sparked pretty sure it's him though, because the initials, names of children and ages all match up. And, they are located at 18 churchgate, as suggested by the 1885 death certificate of Henry Birchall Geoghegan. See the link below:

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?rank=1&new=1&MSAV=0&msT=1&gss=angs-g&gsfn=Joseph+G&gsln=Heyes&_81004010=1818&msbpn__ftp=Lancashire&sbo=0&uidh=ml5&pcat=ROOT_CATEGORY&h=9950207&recoff=1+2+3&db=uki1881&indiv=1

He's a sneaky one! I wonder why they suddenly decided to adopt a different name?


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 12:43 PM

Nothing surprises me about JBG/H!

Marriage: 11 Feb 1883 St Peter, Bolton, Lancashire, England
John Geoghegan - 22 Clerk Bachelor of 18 Churchgate
Mary Howard - 22 Spinster of 11 Church Street
    Groom's Father: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, Musician
    Bride's Father: John Howard, Tobacconist
    Witness: Elizabeth Crompton; John Harrison
    Married by Licence by: James Tyas Curate

John kept up the family tradition by dying aged 25 in 1886. His widow married Henry Dodd, 24, Mining Engineer Bachelor of Northwood, Hanley, on 4 Aug 1889 at St Peter, Bolton.

Marriage: 31 Dec 1884 St Peter, Bolton, Lancashire, England
Thomas Geoghegan - 29 years Mechanic Bachelor of Churchgate
Hannah Mayfield - 30 years Spinster of 48 Hibbert Street
    Groom's Father: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, Publican
    Witness: John Geoghegan; Amy Geoghegan; John Lowe
    Married by Banns by: William Elton Lecturer & Curate

children:

Stephen Birchall Geoghegan b. 3 Jun 1886. d. 1964
Percival Claude Geoghegin [sic] b. 18 Jul 1889. d. 1890
Alice Maude Geoghegan b. 1893


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 10:58 AM

Roger Ruff the ploughman collected by Alfred Williams (unpublished). Roud No: 21415.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 11:20 AM

Old Adam was Father of All collected by Alfred Williams (unpublished).


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 01:05 PM

Sorry about the broken links (above) - the Alfred Williams collection on the Wiltshire.gov website seems to have vanished in the last day or two. Anyone know what's happened to it?


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 03:16 PM

No, but if that's the case it's a very worrying development. I would imagine it has been archived by the BL site by now so it will still be available somewhere on the net.
Our Yorkshire Garland site has been archived but we only have enough cash at the moment to keep it up front for another 3 years or so. It costs about £230 inc VAT per year to keep it online.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 10:00 AM

The correct urls are now:

Roger Ruff the ploughman

Old Adam was Father of All

For any other old links to the Wiltshire.gov Folk Song site, amend the url by replacing the 'WWW' with 'history' and they should work.

Bad idea, Wiltshire!


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,Lauren
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 06:45 AM

I came across the following in the National Archives records for
Chetham's Library: Belle Vue Zoological Gardens [F.4.4 - F.6.9]

(see http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=418-f41f69_2&cid=-1)

Draft manuscript, interleaved with typing paper, faded, creased edges F.4.4.7.v 19thc-20thc

Insertion: Poem, printed c.1866 GEO GHEGAN'S/GUIDE TO BELLE VUE GARDENS... BY J.B. GEO GHEGAN SUNG ALSO BY ALBERT DE VOY. 6 Stanzas. G. Jennison's 'Season 1866' Pencil note Date To be had wholesale of J.B. GEOGHAN, Dog Inn, Deansgate, Manchester.
Creased. Bordered. Mounted on white board.

You can find out more baout Belle Vue Zoological Gardens here: http://manchesterhistory.net/bellevue/history.html

Archival history: The Belle Vue archive has been assembled by the Library over a period of over 70 years. The group includes papers given by George Jennison, the grandson of the founder and the last of the family to own the zoo, material given by Robert Nicholls, author of Looking back at Belle Vue (1990) and The Belle Vue Story (1992), and material given by R.T. Talbot, a former Deputy General Manager at Belle Vue.

Creators Belle Vue Zoological Gardens

So Geoghegan was in Manchester in 1866


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 08:14 AM

Any chance of getting a look at the lyrics of the Belle Vue song?


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 08:50 AM

Good time to visit Chetham's, especially as

"We are delighted to be able to offer a temporary home for Manchester Central Library's collection of tracts, chapbooks and broadsides while the library is closed for refurbishment. These are now starting to arrive and will be made available for study once they have been organised. For more information, please contact the librarian."


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,Lauren
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 10:46 AM

I will probably order a copy of this so I'll make sure you get the lyrics etc.

It seems the national archives may also hold a photo of JBG which i've ordered as well, which is quite exciting.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,Tony Hearn
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 02:48 PM

The Charles Hearn mentioned in Aug 10 1889 is my Great Great Grandfather and would appear that he was the manager of several Gaiety type theatres
Lessee, Mr Chas. Hearn
Acting Manager, Mr Barry Ivor

There is no further mention of Amy/Dot Geoghegan (who is probably one and the same person). It's possible that Charles Hearn was renting the place from the Geoghegan family.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 06:32 AM

Thanks for that, Tony. Do you know which ones?


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 10:35 AM

I can answer my own question:

Charles Hearn was manager of the New Gaiety Music Hall, Cheapside, Wolverhampton in the 1880's.

In 1885 he was fined £5 for supplying ale during prohibited hours.

He appears to have started and finished his career in the pub trade.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: Rozza
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 11:41 AM

JBG is credited with the authorship of "Glossop Road" (about a Rifle Corps soldier courting 'the girls up Glossop Road') in "Cum All Yo Cutlin' Heroes", Smith Spalding and Sutton, Sheffield 1967, pp.12-13. Is this possibly a re-working of a song he used elsewhere? It was sold on a broadside in West Bar, near the Surrey Music Hall.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 12:13 PM

Rozza - JBG often 'recycled' his songs, changing the words to suit the place where he happened to be performing.

Here's the 'fill in the blanks' version of The Girls Up The Road.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 12:25 PM

...and here's a 'filled in' version from 1875.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 05:07 PM

Ruairidh, your old stamping ground, NatCect had a framed copy of the broadside of 'The Girls of Glossop Road' in the library.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 05:00 PM

Sminky and anyone else interested. There's a broadside on Ebay at the moment by JBG. It's 1864 'Lines on the Great Sheffield Flood'. At £55 it's way beyond my pocket.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: Rozza
Date: 01 Feb 11 - 02:56 PM

Thanks Sminky, rather suspected that. So much for it being a "Sheffield Song". Thanks, Steve, I must have a look if I ever get there again.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,Joy Wodhams
Date: 05 Dec 11 - 05:23 PM

You may be interested to know that I'm also descended from Joseph Bryan Geoghegan via Jane Geoghegan, daughter of his first marriage.
I don't have all the details but I believe Jane married my great grandfather, surname Bird, somewhere around 1870-72. He and a partner named Bingham performed as Bingham and Bird, 'black grotesques' at several theatres including Leeds, Bolton, etc.   My grandmother was Jane Bird and amongst her siblings were Bessie Bird, a music hall performer, and Sydney Bird who performed under the name 'Una' as a trapeze artist. He was killed at the young age of 16 by falling, without the benefit of a safety net. I have a photograph of his grave in Liverpool, copy of a birth certificate for Jane Geoghegan born at Salford 1852, and in memoriam cards for Joseph Geoghegan died 1867 age 26, and Bessie Bird and Sydney Bird


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 06 Dec 11 - 05:35 AM

Hi Joy, and welcome.

Sydney Bird married Jane Groghegan [sic] at Liverpool St. Peter in 1872.

I'll see what I can find out about the family (I have Bird ancestors myself).


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,JOY WODHAMS
Date: 06 Dec 11 - 06:21 AM

Many thanks! Would love to know about your Bird ancestors too. I have a case of photos which belonged to my grandmother, Jane Allen, nee Bird, which includes photos of some of the family including the Sydney Bird/'Una' who was a trapeze artist. I did have a wonderful coloured 18thc poster showing Una on the trapeze (star billing!) but unfortunately one of the family gave it away.
I'm really intrigued by JBG's double life - we had no idea!


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 06 Dec 11 - 07:04 AM

Sydney Bird senior was a 'retired trapeze artist' in 1891. Born Chatham, Kent about 1851, his death was registered in West Derby, Liverpool in 1908 aged 56.

In 1871 he was languishing in jail in Chester Castle!

No relation to me, unfortunately.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,Joy Wodhams
Date: 06 Dec 11 - 09:56 AM

Thanks again. What a colourful family we have!


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 06 Dec 11 - 12:28 PM

Looks like this is JBG's first marriage:

Marriage: 23 Jul 1833 St Mary the Virgin, Eccles, Lancashire, England
Joseph Geoghegan - of this Parish
Elizabeth Hopwood - of this Parish
    Witness: Thomas Gorse; John Morris
    Married by Banns by: Wm. MacIvor Curate
    Register: Marriages 1833 - 1834, Page 72, Entry 214

followed by a mass baptism:

Baptisms: 9 Nov 1845 St Philip, Salford, Lancashire, England
Harriet Geoghegan - Child of Joseph Geoghegan & Elizabeth
    Abode: Salford
    Occupation: Fustian Cutter
    Baptised by: I. Robley
    Register: Baptisms 1826 - 1848, Page 151, Entry 1203

Baptisms: 9 Nov 1845 St Philip, Salford, Lancashire, England
Edwin Geoghegan - Child of Joseph Geoghegan & Elizabeth
    Abode: Salford
    Occupation: Fustian Cutter
    Baptised by: I. Robley
    Register: Baptisms 1826 - 1848, Page 151, Entry 1204

Baptisms: 9 Nov 1845 St Philip, Salford, Lancashire, England
Frederick Geoghegan - Child of Joseph Geoghegan & Elizabeth
    Abode: Salford
    Occupation: Fustian Cutter
    Baptised by: I. Robley
    Register: Baptisms 1826 - 1848, Page 151, Entry 1205

Baptisms: 9 Nov 1845 St Philip, Salford, Lancashire, England
Joseph James Geoghegan - Child of Joseph Geoghegan & Elizabeth
    Abode: Salford
    Occupation: Fustian Cutter
    Baptised by: I. Robley
    Register: Baptisms 1826 - 1848, Page 151, Entry 1206

Baptisms: 9 Nov 1845 St Philip, Salford, Lancashire, England
James Geoghegan - Child of Joseph Geoghegan & Elizabeth
    Abode: Salford
    Occupation: Fustian Cutter
    Baptised by: I. Robley
    Register: Baptisms 1826 - 1848, Page 151, Entry 1207

Baptisms: 9 Nov 1845 St Philip, Salford, Lancashire, England
Elizabeth Geoghegan - Child of Joseph Geoghegan & Elizabeth
    Abode: Salford
    Occupation: Fustian Cutter
    Baptised by: I. Robley
    Register: Baptisms 1826 - 1848, Page 151, Entry 1208


No mention of his musical activities.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,JOY WODHAMS
Date: 06 Dec 11 - 06:36 PM

Hi again
I replied to your last post but I don't think it got to you.
Thanks again and I will pass all the above to my family, including my daughter Bryony who may contact you at some stage.
I have a photo which I think is of Joseph Bryan Geoghegan and hope to compare this with the one mentioned in an archive (Manchester?).
Hope you get this post!


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,Bryony Mitchell
Date: 06 Dec 11 - 06:42 PM

Hi, this is so interesting! I'm Joy Wodhams' daughter and we're both fascinated by our family history. Is there a way of posting a photograph of Joseph on here? I've got one scanned in but can't see how to post it. He certainly sounds quite a character!!


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: Acme
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 12:57 AM

You might load your photo onto a photo sharing site then post a link here - that will certainly work. If you don't know how to make the "blue clickie" then post the link and someone will come along and make it a hot link for you.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 04:15 AM

I'd certainly like to see a photo of the rascal!


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 08:31 AM

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150487218718142&set=a.10150487218213142.421439.586723141&type=1&theater

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u33/Bryony_2007/Rellies/Save0002.jpg


Hope one of these works.... If they do I can also share the link to Sydney Bird junior and Bessie Bird if anyone wants a look. Plus I've got a photo of Bingham & Bird who we now think, thanks to the information here, is Sydney Bird senior, plus a handbill for his act!


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 08:33 AM

[IMG]http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u33/Bryony_2007/Rellies/Save0002.jpg[/IMG]

That didn't work, just trying again!


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 08:39 AM

Click here

--------Clicky added. Mudelf---------------------


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 09:17 AM

Cheers! That's the man himself.... Quite a rascally rogue!

This one is Sydney Bird junior, the trapeze artist who died at 16 years:
Click here

And this is his sister Bessie Bird, singer: Click here
You can really see the eye likeness between JBG and Bessie

And this one is of Bingham & Bird, and we now think the Bird is Sydney Bird senior: Click here

GUEST, please use your name or choose a moniker and use it in each post. Especially as this fascinating family tree grows, we would like to know who is contributing which bits. You should consider joining Mudcat. ---mudelf


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 12:41 PM

Great pics. Thanks for sharing.

I'm a bit disappointed with JBG - I was expecting some kind of lecherous Lothario figure like you used to see in silent movies!


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 12:56 PM

Wonderful photos. Thanks so much for sharing!


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,Bryony Mitchell
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 07:47 AM

I still can't get over him fathering 21 children - that we know of! I guess some of us must be related....


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,LNewby
Date: 08 Feb 12 - 09:44 AM

Wow, I don't check this for a couple of weeks, and look what I'm missing!

I have the other photograph of him from the National Archives, will dig it out and get it online asap for you. It cuold be the same man as the other photo of him on here, but I'm not 100% sure. He's much older (do you have a date for that photo?) and clean-shaven in my photo, so it makes comparison quite difficult - plus I don't have it to hand to compare at the moment, I'm just doing it from memory!

Those of you who are family historians, you can find my tree on ancestry - username: newbylf

and you might also be interested in my blog, here:

http://probablyarboreal.blogspot.com/


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,LNewby
Date: 08 Feb 12 - 10:00 AM

By theby, do any of you with family connections have links with the Stoke on Trent area? Or indeed, have family members you know to have performed there. As well as Geoghegan managing the thatre in Hanley, his son-in-law Matt Hall was the manager of the Wedgewood Theatre/Hippodrome in Burslem, Stoke-on-Trent from it's opening in 1896 until at least 1912.

This amusing snippet was passed on to me by someone I know through work (I work in local history publishing)

"Not to be forgotten was the old Burslem Theatre, the Hippodrome, situated between the top of Scotia Road and Baddeley Street. Its popular name was 'The Blood Tub', although the 'Blood Tub' was originally the Wedgwood Theatre of 1903 which was demolished to make way for the new Town Hall of 1911. The Hippodrome was a big, and eventually decrepit, one-storey wooden building closed in 1940 and demolished soon after World War II. In its early days it was run by a man named Matt Hall. Most of the plays were of a 'villainous' nature, alternating with boxing and weightlifting competitions. One one occasion a pallid potter was trying to lift an enormous barbell. 'His futile efforts brought forth derisive yells from his workmates in the audience'. This so exasperated him that he dropped one of the barbells on the stage, with a huge bang, and shouted to his tormentors, 'Thee bloddy well come and try!' Matt Hall was so convulsed with laughter that he became seriously ill and was rushed home!"
(A Sociological History of the Borough of Stoke-on-Trent (1977), Ernest Warrillow, p. 680.)


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,LNewby (Lauren)
Date: 08 Feb 12 - 10:47 AM

Found it!

photograph of JB Geoghegan

also see info
provided with photograph from National Archives

Do you think it is the same man?


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 08 Feb 12 - 11:03 AM

Lauren,

Those photos are not visible to non-members of Ancestry.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,LNewby
Date: 08 Feb 12 - 11:41 AM

Thanks for the heads up, will try and post them somewhere visible and relink asap. L


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,LNewby
Date: 08 Feb 12 - 11:50 AM

Can you see these?

JB Geoghegan photograph

info about photograph


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,GUEST.JOYWODHAMS
Date: 08 Feb 12 - 12:50 PM

This photograph certainly looks different from the one I have but agree it's hard to tell as there's no beard and he's at least 30 or 40 years older, I think. Our Joe is definitely a family member, as most of us have the same eyes!
However, mine isn't certified by anyone - is it definitely proven that the other is JBG?


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 08 Feb 12 - 12:55 PM

Yes, thanks.

Hmmmm.....old man has bulbous nose, young man has eyelids, both have sort of similar hairstyles.

No 'aha' moment though. Any family resemblance to either?


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 08 Feb 12 - 12:57 PM

Sorry, my last post was in response to Lauren's.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,GUEST.JOYWODHAMS
Date: 08 Feb 12 - 02:48 PM

I have noticed that a lot of older men develop bulbous noses - even my ex-husband, I hardly recognised him last time I bumped into him! I gather he does like a glass of wine, which probably contributes - but then, I guess JBG did too.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,Lauren
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 04:59 AM

I stared at it for a while. I think it could be the same man, but I'm not certain. If you zoom in and just look at features individually, they're not so different as to discount it.

As for family resemblance, I couldn't say exactly what it was, but when I first looked at my photograph, I did sort of feel that yes, he does look like he could be a relative. He definitely wouldn't look completely out of place anyway.

But then how much can you really tell, he is my dad's mum's mum's mum's mum's dad - there's a six generation gap. Say I am exactly 50% my dad's gene's and he's 50% his mum's, and so on, then logically I am less than 1% JBG's genes. So any resemblance could be coincidental in any case!

As for certification, I literally only have the info that came with it from the Nattional Archives. Interestingly, it was copyrighted literally days after Geoghegan's death, which makes me think it most likely is of him - a savvy photographer trying to cash in on anyone wanting to use the photograph for obituaries etc, perhaps?

I'm wondering if you could perhaps get your photograph dated Joan, as this might give you more of a clue. I spoke to someone at Who Do You Think You Are Live last year, and she confirmed that my photograph was late 19th century, so probably taken in the few years before Geoghegan died. To my untrained eye, yours does look like an older photograph, but how much older and whether that would tally up with the age difference I couldn't even begin to guess.

I would observe that they are dressed very similarly - they could be wearing the same jacket! I'm not sure whether that's helpful or not - I don't know how much the style of a man's jacket would be likely to change over that sort of time span.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,Lauren
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 05:03 AM

Just a thought - perhaps it's Joseph Geoghegan Jr (I'm assuming it's labelled as 'Joe', from your last comment). You said he died in 1867 aged 26. This could have been taken not long berfore he died perhaps? Do you think the man in that picture culd be in his early twenties? Again, it's hard to tell with that beard!


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 05:19 AM

Next time I'm in Bolton Archives I'll see if there's anything in the local newspapers. You would think there would, given that he was a local celebrity.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,bryonymitchell
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 07:05 AM

I'd wondered the same thing about whether our photo is of JBG junior. All that face fungus makes it so hard to tell their age!


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,Sean Murphy
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 05:27 PM

Very interesting, L Newby, your links to the photograph of the older J B Geoghegan and the Stationers' Hall copyright registration 1889. I have recently commissioned some Stationers' Hall research in the National Archives but did not reach these items. The Index to the Registers 1842-84 lists the following Geoghegan songs only: 'A Diamond in the Rough', 'Lines on the Great Flood', 'Napoleon Talks of War, Boys', 'Oh, Marigold!', 'Rock the Cradle, John', 'Same Old Game', 'Volunteers, Rouse and be Ready'. With the exception of 'Oh Marigold', all of these appear in Sminky's list of songs above, dated 7 May 10.

As per the separate thread 'Cockles and Mussels' I am particularly interested in establishing whether J B Geoghegan wrote the famous Dublin song of the name, starring Molly Malone, as well as the quite similar but now less well known London version starring Jim the Musselman.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,Sean Murphy
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 06:09 PM

Correction: Sminky's list features 'Oh! Marigold'.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,LNewby
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 05:30 AM

Just reading back through this thread, and something struck me re. this post:

----

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 04 Jun 10 - 05:17 AM

Sorry, the search engine is giving me the hump. I search for 'Commercial Man' and the first occurence is 1866; I wade through the 'Harry Clifton' results and I get this:

"NEW MUSIC
The Commercial Man; or Sold Again.
Comic Song, Written and Composed by Harry Clifton. London: Hopwood and Crew. - We can readily believe the statement on the illustrated title-page of this song, that it has been sung with immense success. We should say that it will be highly popular in commercial rooms generally, to say nothing of the Music Halls."

Era, May 22 1864

-----

Who were Hopwood and Crew? Are they likely to have been any connection to Geoghegan's wife, also a Hopwood, or is this just coincidence?


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 06:07 AM

Just spotted soemthing else I hadn't previously:

from post dated 12 May 10 - 01:14 PM

"Ellen was born in Bolton, 1872. In 1891 she was lodging with James T. Bennett and Annie (nee Geoghegan) at 50 Town Hall Square, Bolton."

And this one: 24 Aug 10 - 09:53 AM

JOSEPH BRYAN GEOGHEGAN

13 April (1889)

The Will of Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, late of New-street, Hanley in the County of Stafford, Licensed Victualler, who died 21 January 1889 at 50 Town-Hall-square, Bolton in the County of Lancashire...

So, JBG died in the Bennett household in Bolton.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 06:29 AM

Hopwood and Crew were publishers. I think they later became Ascherberg, Hopwood and Crew. I don't know if there's any relation.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 14 Feb 12 - 06:52 AM

His daughter and her family probably looked after him during his final days.

I think the Hopwood surnames are just a coincidence. Hopwood and Crew was a well-known publishing company based in London. This may be 'your' Elizabeth Hopwood's baptism at Manchester Cathedral:

Baptisms: 2 Jul 1815 Collegiate and Parish Church, Manchester.
Elizabeth Hopwood - Daughter of Joseph Hopwood & Hannah
    Abode: Manchester
    Occupation: Fustian Cutter
    Baptised by: J Brookes
    Register: Baptisms 1814 - 1815, Page 46, Entry 1541


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,LNewby
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 10:42 AM

This family just gets weirder and weirder! I was looking for records on Elizabeth 'Betsy' Geoghegan, and this came up

baptism record

Second from the top on the left-hand side of the page is the baptism of Harriet Bird. Then, two rows down is the baptism of... her mother, Jane Geoghegan - at the age of 37 and long after she's married. It's not even on the same date. I wonder what prompted that?


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,LNewby
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 11:40 AM

And weirder...

Liverpool Mercury, Mon 12 November 1877 announces the death on Nov 7, at 37 Mill Road, aged 29, James, only survivng son of J B Geoghegan.

ONLY SURVIVING SON???

In fact, he was survived by Henry (d. 1885), John (d. 1886)and Thomas (d. 1896). Interestingly though, James was the last surviving son of JBG by Elizabeth.

I can hardly believe that by this time the two sides of the family weren't aware of each other, so I'm not quite sure what to make of this...


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 12:52 PM

An adult baptism suggests either:

a) The person wasn't sure they had been baptized and wanted to make sure, or
b) They had changed their faith.

There's no evidence that Elizabeth knew about JBG's other family, but even if she did she probably wouldn't want to broadcast it to all and sundry.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,GUEST.JOYWODHAMS
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 01:12 PM

I think the death notice was probably posted by his Mum Elizabeth - James was indeed the last surviving son of HER marriage to JBG. I guess she probably preferred to ignore his second family!
Incidentally, I downloaded the certified photo of JBG to compare it with mine, and I don't think they are the same man. I'm concluding the younger man must be one of his sons by Elizabeth, either James, who died in 1877, Joseph, died 1867, Frederick died 1868 or Edwin died 1872. What a sad family!
I haven't been able to access JBG's will - do you know if he left anything to any member of his first family - Jane, for instance, who married Sydney Bird?


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 05:19 AM

A District Probate Registry was established in Lichfield for the county of Staffordshire and copies of wills proven here for the period 1858-1928 are deposited at Litchfield Record Office.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,LNewby
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 07:41 AM

Joy, Elizabeth died before James (in 1871) but I guess you're right that they wouldn't have wanted to acknowledge the 'other' family if they did know about them.

However, I assume that there must have been some knowledge among Elizabeth's children after the death of their mother at least. Their father remarries instantly, after all, and Mary Ann's oldest children, who he clearly acknowledges as his own, were in their late teens by the, so they must have realised at this point that their father had been living this 'double life', if they hadn't been aware of it before.

My instinct is that they did know though - after all, he's a well known figure, and children from both 'families' seem to have been involved in the theatre in some capacity. But as you say, there's no evidence.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,GUEST.JOYWODHAMS
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 10:26 AM

Yes, I slipped up on Elizabeth's death date, although I'd previously noted it. Perhaps her daughters Jane or Betsy, as far as I know the only survivors, made the notification. Do you know anything about Harriet, born 1835? I haven't been able to find any further information about her and assume she must have died young, but am finding it difficult to identify her amongst all the other Harriet Birds.
Incidentally, I found lots of references to Joseph B in The Era publication. In one he had advertised for a position as a theatre manager, mentioning his experience and skills as a songwriter. You may have already checked these.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,GUEST.JOYWODHAMS
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 03:51 AM

Just been looking at some of The Era (stage/circus etc) downloads I made, and both Joseph Geoghegan and Sydney Bird senior advertised regularly in it - Joseph and Sydney definitely overlapping in 1988 amongst other dates. I'm sure they must have both scanned the newspaper thoroughly and at least been aware of each other's activities and performances.
The 'terrible death of a gymnast' - my great great uncle Sydney Bird junior, at the age of 16 - was also reported widely, not only in The Era but in newspapers throughout the UK. I wonder if JBG contacted his son in law Sydney senior to offer condolences on his grandson's death? I don't suppose we'll ever know.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,LNewby
Date: 20 Feb 12 - 06:35 AM

I am currently working on identifying descendants of JBG (I've got well over a hundred so far!, but I haven't investigated the Birds in much detail as yet. Will let you know how I am getting on as I go along, and will look at Harriet in particular and see what I can find.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Feb 12 - 12:01 PM

Joy, I've made some Bird updates to my tree - I hope I haven't spoiled the fun for you too much! As Harriet is the only child I can't track down in 1901, I've concluded that she must have died between 1891 and 1901 censuses. There's only one likely record for this (1893, West Derby) but the death certificate would be the only way to confirm for certain.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 23 Feb 12 - 05:32 AM

Baptisms: 22 Aug 1875 Holy Trinity, Southport, Lancashire, England
Sydney Oscar Alfred Bird - Child of Sydney Bird & Jane
    Abode: Southport
    Occupation: Gymnast
    Baptised by: John Ward Curate
    Register: Baptisms 1837 - 1879, Page 258, Entry 2060


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,GUEST.JOYWODHAMS
Date: 25 Feb 12 - 11:32 AM

Thanks, Lauren and Sminky. My Ancestry.co.uk membership has expired (in any case I was using Pay As You Go credits, which didn't allow me to access other members' family trees. so I can't take advantage of your Bird family searches, Lauren). I had found the 1893 West Derby reference for Harriet, wasn't sure it was the right one but 95% certain.

I have photos and newspaper reports for Sydney Bird's family and also a couple for Joseph Bryan Geoghegan if anyone's interested - just checking with my daughter how to put them on here! Also when Googling 'Ten Thousand Miles Away' I found a little audio with the music for this song - can't remember the actual website now, but it was interesting to hear it.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,jacqui jagger
Date: 23 Mar 12 - 07:29 PM

I know its such a small detail but one of the threads say that Thomas Sheldrake was born deaf and dumb along with two of his siblings, he wasnt he went deaf after an illness at the age of 3. His speach was not altered by the deafness, though some of his children were also born deaf and dumb and he was a wizz with sign language, in fact the deafness is still in the later stages of the family.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,Yves Augusseau
Date: 24 Mar 12 - 06:42 PM

Bonjour,
dans une réponse du 13 mai 2010, vous faites alusion à James Batchelder, je suis à la recherche des dates de naissance, décès mariage de ce compositeur.
Si je pouvez également savoir ou je pourrais me procurer une ou plusieurs de ses compositions je suis également preneur.
Je recherche également à la recherche de la date de naissance et de décès de son épouse Mary Lowe.
Elèment que que je possède, ils ont vécu à Manchester et ont eu un fils Harry.
Merci si vous pouvez m'aider.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: Acme
Date: 25 Mar 12 - 12:15 AM

Diacriticals in the text posted by Yves messed up the text and don't allow for much of a translation via the Babelfish site. But here's a shot at it:

Hello, in a response of May 13, 2010, you made allusion to James Batchelder, I are à the research of the birth dates, deaths, marriage of this type-setter. If I can également knowledge or I could get one or more his compositions to me I am taking également. I seek également of the search of the birth date and deaths of his spouse Mary Lowe. Elèment that I possède, they have vécu à Manchester and had a Harry son. Thank you if you can m' to help.


SRS


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,LNewby
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 07:25 AM

Yves, je ferrai un peu de recherche et je vous contacte. Vous pouvez m'expliquer - vous etes certain qu'ils habitaient a Manchester, ou vous le croyez seulement? Envoyez-moi un e-mail peut-etre? probablyarboreal@hotmail.co.uk
Lauren


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 28 Mar 12 - 01:12 PM

In 1891 the family were at 50 Park St, Chorlton-on-Medlock, Manchester.

James Batcheldor, aged 50, Teacher of Music, b. Norwich
Mary (wife), 49, b. Tamworth, Staffs
Harry (son), 18, Designer on Glass, b. Manchester
Lucy A. Newman (mother), widow aged 70, b. Pulham, Norfolk

The birth of Harry Batchelder was registered at Manchester in 1872.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Mar 12 - 04:51 AM

Yves,
J'ai fait des recherches rapides et j'ai un peu d'information pour vous.
James Stephen William Batchelder (nom complet) est ne en 1840 entre Septembre et Decembre, a Norwich. Vous pouvez obtenir son acte de naissance si vous voulez savoir la date exacte.
Il est baptise 11 aout 1844 a l'eglise St Wilfrid, Standish, pres de Manchester (sa famille s'est y installe entretemps).
Son pere etait James Batchelder. Il etait professeur et organiste.
Sa mere etait Lucy Ann nee Mills. Plus tard elle s'est appelee Lucy Ann Newman, donc je crois qu'elle s'est remariee.
Il avait deux petites soeurs, Lucy Ann Batchelder et Mary Jane Batchelder
Il a epouse Mary Lowe entre Octobre et Decembre 1862 dans le district de West Bromwich, qui est juste au nord-ouest de Birmingham. Encore une fois, vous pouvez obtenir l'acte de mariage pour avoir plus d'information.
Mary Lowe est nee en Mars 1841 a Tamworth, qui est au nord-est de Birmingham. Ses parents se sont appeles William Lowe et Maria nee Whitehouse.
James et Mary ont deux fils : James W Batchelder, ne 1864 a Manchester et Henry (= Harry) Batchelder ne 1873 a Manchester.
Mary Batchelder nee Lowe est morte Janvier 1899 a Chorlton, Lancashire
James Batchelder est mort Decembre 1917 a Salford, Lancashire ? pas loin de Manchester.
J'espere que vous avez trouve utiles tous ces informations. Si vous voulez plus d'aide ou vous avez des questions sur ces infos, dites-moi.
J'espere aussi que vous avez tous compris et que je n'ai pas fait trop d'erreurs. J'ai etudie francais a l'universite mais je ne l'utilise pas tous les jours, donc c'est un peu 'rouille'!
Lauren


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 02 Apr 12 - 07:48 AM

Baptism: 11 Aug 1844 St Wilfrid, Standish, Lancs.
Lucy Ann Batchelder - daughter of James Batchelder & Lucy Ann
    Abode: Standish
    Occupation: Schoolmaster
    Baptised by: George Whitlock Curate
    Register: Baptisms 1834 - 1869, Page 138, Entry 94

Baptism: 11 Aug 1844 St Wilfrid, Standish, Lancs.
James Stephen William Batchelder - son of James Batchelder & Lucy Ann
    Abode: Standish
    Occupation: Schoolmaster
    Baptised by: George Whitlock Curate
    Register: Baptisms 1834 - 1869, Page 138, Entry 95

Baptism: 25 Apr 1847 St Wilfrid, Standish, Lancs.
Mary Jane Batchelder - daughter of James Batchelder & Lucy Ann
    Abode: Standish
    Occupation: Professor of Music
    Baptised by: W H Brandeth Rector
    Register: Baptisms 1834 - 1869, Page 167


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,LNewby
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 10:40 AM

It would have been JBG's birthday today :-)

*(according to some source - I forget what!)

Lauren


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 10:57 AM

Happy Birthday, Joe!


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 13 Apr 12 - 12:39 PM

Happy Birthday JB - you rascal!


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,LNewby
Date: 18 Apr 12 - 07:08 AM

you might be interested in this:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=TcUrAAAAMAAJ&q=J.+B.+Geoghegan&dq=J.+B.+Geoghegan&hl=en&sa=X&ei=HaCOT9y8OMTNhAep0rSFCw&ved=0C

It doesn't appear in the song list in this thread, unless of course its known by other name?

Lauren


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 18 Apr 12 - 07:52 AM

The title is is referenced as being sung in Auckland Star, 1870. No entries in BL or LOC catalogues, nothing in Levy.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Apr 12 - 02:02 PM

It was printed on a broadside by Sanderson of Edinburgh but I don't have a copy. It's a new one on me.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 18 Apr 12 - 07:51 PM

According to the Roud index it also appeared in The Dublin Comic Songster (1845) pp36-37 (this is the only ref apart from the Sanderson catalogue entry). (It's in the Steve Roud collection according to the entry).

Mick


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Bryony Mitchell
Date: 03 May 12 - 07:54 AM

Thought this might be of interest, copied and pasted from the Geoghegan clan page on facebook (couldn't work out how to copy just the link): Carolanne Nelligan Lamb McDonald > Geoghegan Clan
John Grenham
I wrote last February about the increasing number of books relating to Irish genealogy now freely available and searchable online. That column seems to have borne fruit. A reader, Peter John Clarke, was frustrated at the absence of a systematic guide to these books and recently wrote to me that he had set about creating such a guide and putting it online. You can find it now at http://freeirishgenebooks.blogspot.com/. It is a revelation. So far, Peter has found more than 400 books that are free and complete. The sources he uses include the usual ones - Google Books, the Internet Archive and the Open Library Project - but a significant number of works are available via an organisation I did not know of, the Hathi Trust, a community of North American research libraries whose goal, in its own words, is "to contribute to the common good by collecting, organizing, preserving, communicating, and sharing the record of human knowledge."

The variety of books on the list is extraordinary, ranging from familiar works of local history, such as Frost's History [...] of Clare and Smith's Ancient and present state of the County and City of Cork, to basic sources such as the Marriage Licence Bonds of Cork and Ross, and Gilbert's Calendar of the Ancient Records of Dublin, along with dozens of rare, privately printed family histories, up to now almost impossible to find. The listing gives a glimpse of an almost unimaginable future, where everything ever recorded might be instantly available to everyone. What might have been a wishful daydream a decade ago now seems very possible, and just a little frightening.

Peter seems to consider what he has done as part of the tradition of bee-in-the-bonnet amateurs that fuels Irish research. Amateur schmateur. What he has done (and I hope will continue to do) is of the highest value.

Free Irish Genealogy eBooks


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 03 May 12 - 09:24 AM

"The Seedy Swell" was written by Harry Liston according to Era (first mention May 20, 1866).


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,Damien CTM
Date: 21 Jun 12 - 04:17 AM

Hello, i may be well of topic here but i'm trying to trace a man connected to a Coventry Cycle business and a Wolverhampton Music Hall/Theatre.

In 1879 there was a firm called the Lion Bicycle Company at Leicester Place. H. H. Griffin in 1890 stated that the cycle maker made Dandy-Horse type machines from 1879 who went on to become the proprieter of the chief music hall in Wolverhampton.

There did exist also a Coventry Lion Cycle co. in Wolverhampton after 1879 which i'm sure must be connected, but i can't find evidence to trace the man in question. Any help would be greatly appreciated.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,LNewby
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 11:59 AM

Damien, if you haven't already, try

http://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/search/results?basicsearch=lion%20cycle&somesearch=lion%20cycle&place=birmingham%2C%20west%20midlands%2C%20england&page=0

might be something of use in amongst these, but you'll need a subscription/credits

Lauren


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,LNewby
Date: 11 Oct 12 - 12:17 PM

also, this could be his parents' marrigae, though unconfirmed as yet:

Marriage: 7 Aug 1814 Collegiate, Manchester, Lancashire, England
James Gahagan - Fustian Cutter Batchelor of this Parish and Town of Manch'r
Mary Ann Reeves - (X), Spinster of this Parish and Town Aforesaid
    Witness: I Chantler; Benj'n Ball
    Married by Banns by: C.D. Wray
    Register: Marriages 1814, Page 305, Entry 915
    Source: LDS Film 1545577


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,LNewby
Date: 21 Jan 13 - 04:11 AM

Today is the 124th anniversary of JBG's death.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,Bryony Mitchell
Date: 11 Feb 14 - 06:35 AM

Heard a live group singing ten thousand miles away on Friday evening. Made my spine tingle from top to bottom! It was like JBG, my GGGgrandfather, was in the room with us!


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Feb 14 - 10:19 AM

Bryony, Awesome! I have the original sheet music.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,Bryony Mitchell
Date: 21 Aug 14 - 03:13 PM

Hi Steve, Only just seen your reply! Where did you find it ,is it possible for me to buy a copy? I've only managed to find Cockles and Mussels and Down in a Coalmine.

It was awesome indeed. As was hearing this on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1TGJ0XnZMI

Surreal that such an old song is being sung still in a punk style!


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,Bryony Mitchell
Date: 08 Nov 16 - 07:30 AM

Re: "From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 03 May 12 - 09:24 AM
"The Seedy Swell" was written by Harry Liston according to Era (first mention May 20, 1866). "

I've just bought a book called 'Victorian Delights' by John Hadfield on the offchance it might mention JBG (my great great great grandfather) and lo and behold the second photograph in the book is of a songsheet cover for 'The Seedy Swell' - Sung by Harry Liston, Written by J B Geoghegan, Music by R. Hughes.

I've also just got original copies of songsheets for 'Notting Hill or the Dodger's Lament for his Lost Love' and 'They All Have A Mate But Me'.

I'm beyond excited to hold an original songsheet in my paws!

I will happily email PDF versions to anyone who wants them. But I had no idea the originals were so large! I've only got an A4 scanner. But will work something out...


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,LNewby
Date: 15 Dec 16 - 11:02 AM

OOh, Bryony, I would love PDFs, if possible. It's l.f.newby@dunelm.org.uk. Thanks so much. Lauren


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,Bryony Mitchell
Date: 18 Dec 16 - 05:03 AM

Hi Lauren, no problem - I might need reminding after Christmas is out of the way! I sent you a message on pinterest by the way - did you see it?


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Dec 16 - 11:04 AM

Hi Bryony,
I have some sheet music lined up for looking at after Christmas. Fingers crossed there''ll be some JBG in there. Thanks for the pdfs and good luck with your website.

I'll send Billy Weekes an email. he might have some originals we haven't got.


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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,Bryony Mitchell
Date: 20 Dec 16 - 01:18 PM

Look forward to hearing about both, Steve - thanks!

I used the image of Joseph Geoghegan Junior in google images last week, and he's all over tinternet! The actual photo of JBG only links to one pic on Pinterest by Lauren.

The bearded son pic has been used on a site called a folk song a week. Fair enough, that's a fairly logical link.

One complete stranger has him has her profile picture, and came up as the creator of a thread called, '16 Photos That Prove A Baby Is The Best Halloween Costume Accessory.'

One fella has him in his collection of photographs of "1800s old men" on pinterest. He apparently downloaded it via the website of a masonry company in North Carolina.

It's linked to an article headed, 'No Joke, This Guy Wants To Make A Drone Out Of Your Dead Pet.'

I'm not at all sure what I think about this!

It's also weird seeing him pop up online, with the same eyes as both Mum and me.

Genes and Google. Bit freakin' weird, if you ask me


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