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Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
Related thread:
(origins) Origins: Down in a Coal Mine (J. B. Geoghegan) (22)
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Subject: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan From: GUEST, Sminky Date: 06 May 10 - 10:30 AM This started out as an attempt to trace Geoghegan's movements as a 'travelling singer', as he styled himself. However, it became an investigation of a man who, quite simply, lived a double life. I suggested in a previous thread that there was more than meets the eye about him, I never realised until now just how much. He was born in Salford about 1816 (some sources state Barton-on-Irwell, but both he and his sister Ellen claimed Salford as their birthplace). His father, James, was a Fustian Cutter from Dublin (b.1791) living at Phillips St., Barton in 1851; his mother, Mary Ann, was from Manchester. According to sources, "before he reached manhood took to writing songs upon current events". He certainly seems to have left home at an early age and was married, to Elizabeth (a 'vocalist'), before he was 19. The 'other woman', Mary Ann Birchall, appears on the scene about 1852, aged 17. In that same year Geoghegan fathered children both by his wife and Mary Ann, a pattern that was to continue until 1871, when Elizabeth died. He married Mary Ann that same year. In all he fathered 21 known children: 9 by Elizabeth and 12 by Mary Ann, 10 of which were born whilst still married to Elizabeth. Fate was unkind to his family; at least four of his sons reached adulthood but died before reaching 40. At least three of his children were deaf and dumb from birth (tragic enough, but even more so, given their father's occupation). Only one child, Frederick, showed any musical inclination; he was styled 'violinist' on the 1861 census. Mary Ann died 1889 in Stoke, where Geoghegan was manager of the Gaiety Theatre. He moved back to Bolton and died there the same year. His death was widely reported, meriting two articles in the Otaga Witness, New Zealand! A grandson, Stephen Birchall Geoghegan, died in Bolton in 1964 aged 77. There are Geoghegans in Bolton to this day, probably Joseph's descendants. The following is a list of his known whereabouts, based on family events. Given that he had two families, entries in the first column relate to Elizabeth's, those in the second refer to Mary Ann's:
He vanishes from the radar between 1874 and 1888 (I cannot find him on the 1881 census). He may have spent some time in Sheffield during this period. Ironically, one of his songs was entitled IT'S REALLY A DREADFUL AFFAIR - quite apt really. |
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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s From: Steve Gardham Date: 06 May 10 - 04:39 PM Sminky, Have you got a comprehensive list of his songs? If he was in Sheffield I would have said 1860s was more likely based on songs he wrote about it. Do you have any of the sheet music. I have some but there are others I would be interested in. |
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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s From: GUEST, Sminky Date: 07 May 10 - 05:56 AM Steve, No, certainly not a comprehensive list. Here's your list and mine combined (from the other thread): Allah, guard the Prince of Wales. National song [begins: " Ten thousand thousand welcomes " ]. (1876) Benjamin and Maria or The Sheffield Hoax Better late than never [Song, begins: " What folly 'tis for man to fret " ] (1860) Black diamond Bread and Cheese and Ale Brigham Young. [Song.] (1873) Cockles & Mussels. Song [begins: "Of all merry blades"] (1876) The Convivial Man. [Song, begins: " They tell me " .] (1869) A Diamond in the Rough. [Song, begins: "I'll sing you".] (1876) Don't say who gave you the tip. [Song, begins: "I'm going to sing".] (1878) Down in a Coal Mine. [Song, begins: "I am a jovial collier lad".] (1873) England is England still. (1886) England with all thy faults I love thee still (1875) The Frenchman, 1878 Glossop Road. (1860) A hundred years ago. (1860) I am a merry little man It's A way we have in the Army (1863), It's really a dreadful affair John Barleycorn is a hero bold. (1860) Johnny, I hardly know you. [Song, begins: "While on the road".] (1867) Lancashire Witch Lines on the Flood Marigold Measure your Wants by your Means, [song] (1860) The men of merry England. (1858) The Merriest Man in the Company A Message from the Sea The Name of England ... Song [begins: " There is a world known little isle " ] (1876) Napoleon talks of War, Boys. (1860) A Novel Idea. Song [begins: " Ah! gentlemen " ]. (1873) Oh! Marigold. [Song, begins: "Tho' I'm a blighted trumpet flower".] (1873) Old Adam was father of all. [Song, begins: "What a wonderful world".] (1876) Old England's future king. Patriotic song, [begins: " Arouse, ye loyal Englishmen " ] (1863) Pat works on the Railway, 1854 The Queen of merry England. (1860) Rock the Cradle John. Roger Ruff, or a drop of good beer. [Song, begins: "I'm Roger Ruff".] (1860) The Same Old Game. [Song, begins: "When I was quite a lad".] (1876) Sons of Old John Bull The Style, by Jove! [Song, begins: " You talk about your howling swells " .] (1866) Ten Thousand Miles away. [Song begins: "Sing oh!"] (1870) They all have a mate but me. [Song, begins: "Kind Christians all".] (1876) Time works wonders [song, begins: " A friendless youth " ] (1869) The Toilers of the Sea True hearts are always trumps. song Volunteers rouse & be ready. (1860) The Waggoner. [Song, begins: "True hearts are always trumps".] (1860) Wasn't she a Beauty To which we can add 'The Manchester Ship Canal' which I discovered yesterday in Notes and Queries, Manchester Times, January 22, 1892. W.R. Consterdine, Collyhurst, writes "The song 'The Manchester Ship Canal' was Written and sung by J.B.Geoghegan (mine host of the Varieties, Churchgate, Bolton), at Benjamin Lang's Music Hall, Victoria Bridge, Manchester, in 1841." He goes on to give the text, which is identical to the Bodleian Broadside The Seaport Town of --- (with 'Manchester' inserted into the blanks). Assuming the date to be correct - and JB was living on Deansgate, Manchester in 1841 - this would be the earliest dateable Geoghegan song that I've come across so far. As you say, JBG was probably in Sheffield in the 1860's, though there is no hint of this in the family records (perhaps I was being conservative when I said he was living a double life!). And sometime amongst all this he is supposed to have been a Music Hall manager in Bolton for 25 years! |
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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s From: Steve Gardham Date: 07 May 10 - 06:44 PM Paul Davenport tells me there are lots of Geoghegans in Sheffield. He taught some of them. Joe was a busy man! Gives the term 'Father of the Music Hall' an extra dimension. |
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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s From: GUEST,LNewby Date: 11 May 10 - 11:20 AM Hi, I am a descendent (probably) of J B Geoghegan. My great, great great grandmother was Kathleen Birchall Geoghegan, daughter of Joseph Bryan and Mary Ann Birchall. Kathleen was known as Kate and married Matthew 'Merry Matt' Hall, a performer and theatre manager - all 5 of their children followed them into the theatre as well. Unfortunately no father's name is given on Kathleens birth ceritificate, won which she is simply Birchall(1854 West Derby, Lancs (8b 389)) but to all intents and purposes J B was her father. From 1861 he was living with her mtoher, and fathered most of he I've been doing quite a bit of research on Joseph Bryan and his family, and I'd be fascinated to hear anything you have found out that might be of interest to me and my family tree! Reply to the thread :) Thanks, Lauren |
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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s From: GUEST Date: 11 May 10 - 11:26 AM Oh, I can also add a bit of info for you which takes J B down south: Geoghegan – Birchall 1861 Census 1861 census – Aldershot, Surrey J B Geoghegan, 44, vocalist (head) - married M A Birchall, 27, vocalist (lodger) – married ??? Kate Birchall, 5 John Birchall, 7 months J Bainter(?) (male) 28, vocalist – married |
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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s From: GUEST,LNewby Date: 11 May 10 - 11:39 AM That last post was from me by the way. Seemingly I'm going to have a million things to ask/say about everything that's been mentioned here, so probably should have waited until I'd digested it, but anyway. Firts thing, I'm quite intrigued by your numbers of children, as I only have 16 - 9 for Mary Ann and 7 for Elizabeth. Can you post me a list of them all? I was going to comment as well, that while his children were being born and so on in all these different places, there's no reason to assume that he was there the whole time. As you mention, he was already living a double wife. There's no reason why he couldn't have gone off travelling leaving both women and the hoardes of children wherever there were! I think I found one reference to him in the Stage archives, which don't start until the 1880s, but I can't seem to lay my hands on it at the moment. But I've certainly had no luck locating him on the 1881 census, despite trying every single spelling I can think of. It's news to me that he managed a theatre in Stoke, but there it has a corpped up as one of the key places where my rather peripatetic family seem to return to alot so we had assumed there was family connection of some sort, so thanks for confirming that. Can't think of anyhting else right now. But look forwrad to eharing from you soon. LN |
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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s From: GUEST, Sminky Date: 11 May 10 - 11:50 AM Hi Lauren. You won't believe this, but I came across the following this very day: "Mr.J.B.Geoghegan, Comic Vocalist and Author of numerous Popular Songs, and Miss M.A.Birchall, Serio-Comic and Ballads, will be at liberty on Monday next, November 4, after a most successful Engagement of Eleven Months, at the Victory Hall, Aldershott. Can engage separate or jointly. Address, No.1 Union-road, Aldershott" Era Magazine, November 3rd, 1861 'Miss Birchall', of course, is his bit of stuff whom he eventually married. On the same census night, his wife Elizabeth was stuck at home in Liverpool with six of their kids. |
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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s From: GUEST,LNewby Date: 11 May 10 - 11:59 AM One more thing, I did find a reference to him in a local directory, in 1876. I tried to copy the image here but it won't let me. So here's a transcription: Geghegan, Joseph B, manager Theatre of Varieties; ho 19 Portugal street That's in Bolton in 1876. I've not had much look workign out what was at this address, but I'm guessing someone on here might know? Lauren |
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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s From: GUEST Date: 11 May 10 - 12:01 PM Wow, I love that! Thanks! |
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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s From: GUEST, Sminky Date: 11 May 10 - 12:12 PM Lauren, by 1878 he had moved from Portugal Street to 107 Bury Road. He was definitely in Bolton throughout 1881 (Manager of the Museum Concert Hall) so why he doesn't appear on the census I don't know. He was in Bradford in 1860, Hull in 1861, Bradford again in 1864. Some of my notes are at home, so I can't get them until tomorrow. I'm pretty sure he had a brother John, who was a Lodging-house keeper in Oldham. |
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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s From: Steve Gardham Date: 11 May 10 - 12:24 PM Hi Sminky, Anything I can be looking for regarding his stay in Hull in 1861? Artful codger and I are working on Harry Clifton's sheet music at the moment. A contemporary of JBG, he seems to have other similarities with HC. I have several copies/originals of JBG's sheet music that I can post when we've finished the Clifton material. Originals John Barleycorn is a Hero Bold The Men of Merry England The Same Old Game (sung by Sam Torr) Ten Thousand Miles Away Copies Cockles and Mussels Down in a Coal Mine I have seen a sheet music original of 'When Johnny Comes Marching Home' with a brightly coloured litho of soldiers. It was for sale at the music/book shop down Bell St, Edgware Road in London, but too expensive for my pocket, about £15 if I remember rightly. I also have the words of others of his songs on broadsides. |
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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s From: GUEST, Sminky Date: 11 May 10 - 12:40 PM Steve, JBG was at the Mechanics' Institute in November 1861, along with Miss Birchall (Serio-Comic). In 1875: "Mr. Sam Torr is nightly appearing with the greatest success at the Mechanics', Hull. Agent, Charles Roberts. London, Boxing Night. New songs in preparation by J.B.Geoghegan, Esq" Era Magazine, October 31st 1875 Regarding songs: "Now Ready. J.B.Geoghegan's Song 'Brigham Young'" Era Magazine, Sept 1870 "NOTICE. Having printed numerous copies of J.B.Geoghegan's song 'Carried her to Belle Vue Jail' without his permission, I hereby make this apology, and agree to give him Two Pounds in consideration that he takes no further proceedings. (Signed) J.H.Millburn, Comic Vocalist. September 21st, 1865" Era Magazine, Sept 24th 1865. |
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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s From: GUEST, Sminky Date: 11 May 10 - 12:48 PM "Mr J.W.Rowley Pullan's Varieties, Bolton. NOTICE - Mr.J.B.Geoghegan's last song has been purchased by J.W.R. 'Have a little bit on me'. A.Maynard; or, as above." Era, Oct 13th, 1878 "Mr. Joe M'Dowell Scotia Grand Hall, Glasgow and Brown's Royal Hall, nightly. New Songs by J.B.Geoghegan, 'The City Bank Director', a big hit." Era, Jan 12th 1879 |
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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s From: GUEST,LNewby Date: 11 May 10 - 01:30 PM In 1885, his wife Mary Ann is living at 18 Churchgate Bolton, according to the Death certificate of her son Henry, so J B was probably there too? |
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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s From: Anglogeezer Date: 11 May 10 - 03:03 PM Whilst this is not your Geoghegan I thought you might be interested never the less. The Compleat Tutor Its a tutor for the pastoral/bellows blown pipes published in 1745 by John Geoghegan. regards Jake |
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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s From: GUEST, Sminky Date: 12 May 10 - 05:01 AM Lauren, I've only reached 1882 in Era so far - will carry on today. Incidentally, I had two relatives (unmarried sisters) living at 15 Portugal Street - next door but one to JBG! If you've ever seen any of the Fred Dibnah programmes, Portugal Street is just a stone's throw from his house. |
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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s From: GUEST, Sminky Date: 12 May 10 - 07:05 AM Another song: "Many thanks to J.Geoghegan Esq. for permission for Percy Honri to sing his latest song entitled 'England the Haven and Home of the World'." Era Magazine, Mar 12th 1887 I've just got some fascination info about 'Down in a Coal Mine'. I'll type it up when I get the chance. JBG "took possession" of the Gaiety, Hanley, on Dec 5th 1887 (he still remained General Manager of the Victoria at Bolton). After his death in 1889, his wife Mary Ann took over, with Dot Geoghegan becoming "the youngest directress in the profession". JBG's funeral took place on January 24th 1889 - he was buried at Heaton Cemetery, Bolton. His widow died at Hanley on Tuesday June 4th 1889. After that there is no further mention of a Geoghegan connection with the Music Hall. |
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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s From: GUEST,LNewby Date: 12 May 10 - 08:32 AM Ok, I'm confused on something. I thought we had established that Mary Ann died before JB?: "Mary Ann died 1889 in Stoke, where Geoghegan was manager of the Gaiety Theatre. He moved back to Bolton and died there the same year. " (from your first post) Also, I don't think I've come across Dot, she must be one of the children I don't have. How old was she? Lauren |
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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s From: GUEST, Sminky Date: 12 May 10 - 09:03 AM I don't know why I had assumed that Mary had died first. I am happy to correct my error! Dot may be a grandchild - remember that the JBG production line started in the 1830's! Family members at JBG's funeral included: Mrs Geoghegan, Miss Amy Geoghegan, Mr and Mrs Barnes, Mr and Mrs Bennett (daughters and son-in-law), Mrs Hodson (daughter). Interestingly, there was also a Mr E.Abrahams, "missionary for the Bolton, Bury and Rochdale Adult Deaf and Dumb Society". |
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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s From: GUEST Date: 12 May 10 - 11:54 AM I can't find any Dots/Dorothys of a suitable age on the censuses/BMD index etc at the moment, but yes, she could well be a grandchild, given that his second wife is the same age as some of his older children! Very interesting. Two of his sons by Mary Ann were deaf and dumb from birth - Henry and Thomas. They were actually late discoveries for me, as they don't appear with the family on any of the ensuses, but living instead with various relatives or as lodgers. At first I thought perhaps they had been sort of 'given up' by their families, but increasingly I think this isn't the case. And having someone from such an organisation certainly makes me think not. |
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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s From: GUEST, Sminky Date: 12 May 10 - 12:06 PM Lauren - there were more than two. May, by his first wife, was "deaf and dumb from birth". Henry, Thomas and Ellen, by his second wife, likewise. Dot seems to disappear after JBG and Mary Ann die (and she wasn't listed amongst the funeral guests). Some important new information about Down in a coal mine. |
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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s From: GUEST,Lnewby Date: 12 May 10 - 12:31 PM Interesting. I seem to have missed Ellen somewhere, I'll have to go back and hunt her down, and i hadn't clocked that May was deaf and dumb. Presumably it was some kind of hereditary thing I guess, from the Geoghegan side. I've just established that Mrs Bennett was his daughter Annie by Mary Ann. A lot of his children seemed to have died very young, which is funny when you think that he lived to be so old. Possibly Dot is an alternative name for someone I reckon. |
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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s From: GUEST,Lnewby Date: 12 May 10 - 12:36 PM May was by Mary Ann, not Elizabeth, as far as I was aware??? |
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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s From: GUEST Date: 12 May 10 - 12:37 PM Here is my list of his family, as I have it: by Elizabeth 1816 – 1871 Harriett Geoghegan 1835 – Edwin Geoghegan 1837 – 1872 Frederic Geoghegan 1839 – 1868 Joseph J Geoghegan 1841 – 1867 James Geoghegan 1847 – Jane Geoghegan 1852 – Elizabeth 'Betsey' Geoghegan 1856 – Mary Ann Birchall 1835 – Henry Birchall Geoghegan 1852 – 1885 K Geoghegan 1854 – 1892 Thomas Birchall Geoghegan 1856 – Annie Birchall Geoghegan 1859 – John Geoghegan 1860 – May Geoghegan 1863 – Mary Geoghegan 1867 – Amy Geoghegan 1868 – Marion Geoghegan 1870 – |
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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s From: GUEST, Sminky Date: 12 May 10 - 01:14 PM Ellen was born in Bolton, 1872. In 1891 she was lodging with James T. Bennett and Annie (nee Geoghegan) at 50 Town Hall Square, Bolton. I'll try to remember to bring my list in tomorrow! |
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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s From: GUEST Date: 12 May 10 - 01:20 PM Yes, just found it myself. Also, this is about the Mr E Abrahams who attended J B 's funeral. Quite an important figure it seems... http://www4.gu.edu.au:8080/adt-root/uploads/approved/adt-QGU20060123.131332/public/04Chapter3.pdf |
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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s From: GUEST, Sminky Date: 13 May 10 - 05:39 AM Lauren, My list is as yours except: Harriet, Edwin, Frederic, Joseph James and Elizabeth were all baptised on the same day (9-11-1845) at Salford St.Phillips. William b.23-2-1854, baptised Liverpool St.Peter, 14-6-1854. Ellen b. Bolton, 1872. |
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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s From: GUEST, Sminky Date: 13 May 10 - 06:34 AM "New Music 'The Convivial Man', published by Messrs Duff - Mr.J.B.Geoghegan has written the words, and Mr.J.Batchelder composed the music, of this song, which, we are told on the title-page. has been "sung by Mr.Jolly John Nash". A lithograph portrait of that popular "comique" adorns the title page. It is an average production of its particular class." Era, Aug 9th 1868 |
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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s From: Artful Codger Date: 02 Jun 10 - 03:32 AM Lyrics and MIDI for "Down in a Coal Mine!" (transcribed from Geoghegan sheet music) posted to this (new) thread: http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=129899 I've also cross-linked to the "Ten Thousand Miles Away" thread, where most of the discussion on this song has previously taken place. |
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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s From: Steve Gardham Date: 02 Jun 10 - 04:20 PM Sminky, Convivial man That's interesting. Clifton's 'The Commercial Man' is sometimes referred to as 'The Convivial Man'. I wonder if they both came out at about the same time which caused some confusion. |
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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s From: Artful Codger Date: 02 Jun 10 - 07:54 PM More likely is that Clifton just sang both. They appear to be distinct songs, unrelated even by parody. We have at least a partial first line for JBG's "The Convivial Man"--"They tell me"--which contrasts with Clifton's "Hey for fun and jokery" in both tone and rhythm. From the latter line, one might guess that the song was about a convivial man, but the word "convivial" never appears in the lyrics of "The Commercial Man". As a side note, the Bodley broadside for "The Commercial Man" says it was sung to "Strike for Tyrol and Liberty" (the most famous theme from Rossini's William Tell, also known as the Lone Ranger theme). |
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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s From: GUEST, Sminky Date: 03 Jun 10 - 06:49 AM Datewise, the earliest mentions I've got are: Clifton's The Commercial Man is first listed in Era on Aug 5 1866. "J. Batchelder, composer of The Convivial Man (sung by Jolly Nash). Hardy's Music hall, Manchester." Era, Mar 22 1868. |
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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s From: Steve Gardham Date: 03 Jun 10 - 03:09 PM Sminky I have in my notes that 'Commercial Man' appeared in an Era 1864 entry. It can only have come from you. 1864 also fits with the serial number 519. Its first line is 'Tom Brown was a man you don't meet every day'. OLIS has a copy of the original. Looking at Nash's repertoire in Kilgarriff he also sang 'The Concertina Man'. Anybody got a copy of that one? |
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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s From: Artful Codger Date: 03 Jun 10 - 07:16 PM If that is the first line of Clifton's "The Commercial Man" per OLIS, it isn't the same song as in the Bodley broadside (estimated date c.1860, which could put it too early anyway). |
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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s From: GUEST, Sminky Date: 04 Jun 10 - 05:17 AM Sorry, the search engine is giving me the hump. I search for 'Commercial Man' and the first occurence is 1866; I wade through the 'Harry Clifton' results and I get this: "NEW MUSIC The Commercial Man; or Sold Again. Comic Song, Written and Composed by Harry Clifton. London: Hopwood and Crew. - We can readily believe the statement on the illustrated title-page of this song, that it has been sung with immense success. We should say that it will be highly popular in commercial rooms generally, to say nothing of the Music Halls." Era, May 22 1864 |
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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s From: GUEST, Sminky Date: 24 Aug 10 - 09:53 AM JOSEPH BRYAN GEOGHEGAN 13 April (1889) The Will of Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, late of New-street, Hanley in the County of Stafford, Licensed Victualler, who died 21 January 1889 at 50 Town-Hall-square, Bolton in the County of Lancashire, was proved at Lichfield by Mary Ann Geoghegan of New-street, Widow, the Relict, the sole Executrix. Personal Estate £518-7s-9d. (My punctuation). Licensed Victualler? Good grief. |
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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s From: GUEST,LAUREN NEWBY Date: 26 Aug 10 - 11:13 AM In 1890, £518 7s 6d would have the same spending worth of today's £31,045.48 |
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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s From: GUEST, Sminky Date: 26 Aug 10 - 12:16 PM Lauren - that was just his personal estate (cash, 'chattels' etc). It would not include any property that he might have owned or any business interests he may have had (these would presumably pass to Mary Ann). It would be interesting to read the will - Lichfield Probate Registry should have a copy unless they it has been deposited elsewhere. |
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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s From: GUEST, Sminky Date: 07 Sep 10 - 05:39 AM Lauren - here's one for you (just appeared online):
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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s From: GUEST,LAUREN NEWBY Date: 17 Sep 10 - 10:40 AM Great, thanks . Can take a couple of useful nuggets from that! Lauren |
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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s From: GUEST,LAUREN NEWBY Date: 23 Sep 10 - 01:30 PM Sminky, I was just rereading this snippet: JBG "took possession" of the Gaiety, Hanley, on Dec 5th 1887 (he still remained General Manager of the Victoria at Bolton). After his death in 1889, his wife Mary Ann took over, with Dot Geoghegan becoming "the youngest directress in the profession". JBG's funeral took place on January 24th 1889 - he was buried at Heaton Cemetery, Bolton. His widow died at Hanley on Tuesday June 4th 1889. After that there is no further mention of a Geoghegan connection with the Music Hall. Where did the info come from? I was just wondering if it's possible that Mary Ann and Dot are the same person? Surely if she had taken over from her husband running the place, wouldn't she be the directress? I'm not sure about the structure of Music Halls at this time - would there be a separate 'director' job from the manager? Dot could have been a sort of 'nickname' or an odd abreviation - I know that Mary Ann was often abbreivated to Polly, so Dot isn't that much of a stretch! She would have been about 55 at this point. It doesn't sound particularly young does it? But then we don't know how old any other directresses there were in the profession or indeed how old they were. She would certainly have been in a position to take over after 40 years as his 'wife' surely? Just a theory... |
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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s From: GUEST,^&* Date: 23 Sep 10 - 03:59 PM FWIW, in Ireland also, "Dot" is usually used as an abbreviation/pet-name for "Dorothy" |
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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s From: GUEST, Sminky Date: 24 Sep 10 - 05:49 AM Lauren, Most of the info came from Era Magazine, supplemented by other newspaper articles. Mary Ann and Dot are definitely not the same person. Here's a chronology relating to the Gaiety Theatre of Varieties, Hanley: Feb 16 1889 - Mar 16 1889 Proprietress, Mrs Geoghegan Directress, Miss Dot Geoghegan Apr 13 1889 Proprietress, Mrs J.B. Geoghegan Directress, Miss Amy Geoghegan Apr 27 1889 Proprietress, Mrs J.B. Geoghegan Directress, Miss Amy Geoghegan "Closed for extensive alterations" Jun 4 1889 Mary Ann Geoghegan dies in Hanley. Aug 10 1889 Lessee, Mr Chas. Hearn Acting Manager, Mr Barry Ivor There is no further mention of Amy/Dot Geoghegan (who is probably one and the same person). It's possible that Charles Hearn was renting the place from the Geoghegan family. |
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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s From: GUEST, Sminky Date: 24 Sep 10 - 10:22 AM Here's what happened to Amy: Amy Birchall Geoghegan (b.1868) married Frank Moore in Liverpool, 1900. Known children: Dorothy B. Moore (b. Hornsey, Middlesex, 1901) Her sister May Geoghegan (b.1863) married Herbert Hulton, architect (b.1858, d.1927 aged 70) in Bolton, 1881. Known children: Cecil B. Hulton (b. Finsbury Park, 1883) Marion Hulton (b. Bolton, 1887. d.1893) Amy May Hulton (b. Hornsey, Middlesex, 1889. d.1893) [blind from birth] Amy Moore (nee Geoghegan) and daughter Dorothy were staying with the Hultons at 20 Ridge Road, Hornsey, Middlesex on the 1901 census. Herbert Hulton d.1927 aged 70 (registered Tonbridge) May Hulton (nee Geoghegan) d.1931 aged 69 (registered Sevenoaks) |
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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s From: GUEST,Lauren Date: 24 Sep 10 - 11:06 AM Wow thanks for that. Yes, I guess Dot is Amy. |
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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s From: GUEST, Sminky Date: 24 Sep 10 - 11:27 AM It's interesting that May Hulton (nee Geoghegan) was 'deaf and dumb since birth' on the 1871 census, but not on subsequent ones. I wonder if she was 'cured'. The family still seemed to be plagued by health problems, however, as evidenced by little Amy May. On a lighter note - Amy senior was obviously determined to have a Dot in the family! |
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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s From: GUEST,Lauren Date: 25 Oct 10 - 10:29 AM I've just found JB on the 1881 census!! He is Using the name Heyes and masquerading as an innkeeper. My interest was sparked pretty sure it's him though, because the initials, names of children and ages all match up. And, they are located at 18 churchgate, as suggested by the 1885 death certificate of Henry Birchall Geoghegan. See the link below: http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?rank=1&new=1&MSAV=0&msT=1&gss=angs-g&gsfn=Joseph+G&gsln=Heyes&_81004010=1818&msbpn__ftp=Lancashire&sbo=0&uidh=ml5&pcat=ROOT_CATEGORY&h=9950207&recoff=1+2+3&db=uki1881&indiv=1 He's a sneaky one! I wonder why they suddenly decided to adopt a different name? |
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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s From: GUEST, Sminky Date: 25 Oct 10 - 12:43 PM Nothing surprises me about JBG/H! Marriage: 11 Feb 1883 St Peter, Bolton, Lancashire, England John Geoghegan - 22 Clerk Bachelor of 18 Churchgate Mary Howard - 22 Spinster of 11 Church Street Groom's Father: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, Musician Bride's Father: John Howard, Tobacconist Witness: Elizabeth Crompton; John Harrison Married by Licence by: James Tyas Curate John kept up the family tradition by dying aged 25 in 1886. His widow married Henry Dodd, 24, Mining Engineer Bachelor of Northwood, Hanley, on 4 Aug 1889 at St Peter, Bolton. Marriage: 31 Dec 1884 St Peter, Bolton, Lancashire, England Thomas Geoghegan - 29 years Mechanic Bachelor of Churchgate Hannah Mayfield - 30 years Spinster of 48 Hibbert Street Groom's Father: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, Publican Witness: John Geoghegan; Amy Geoghegan; John Lowe Married by Banns by: William Elton Lecturer & Curate children: Stephen Birchall Geoghegan b. 3 Jun 1886. d. 1964 Percival Claude Geoghegin [sic] b. 18 Jul 1889. d. 1890 Alice Maude Geoghegan b. 1893 |
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Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s From: GUEST, Sminky Date: 28 Oct 10 - 10:58 AM Roger Ruff the ploughman collected by Alfred Williams (unpublished). Roud No: 21415. |
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