Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 11:20 AM

Old Adam was Father of All collected by Alfred Williams (unpublished).

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 01:05 PM

Sorry about the broken links (above) - the Alfred Williams collection on the Wiltshire.gov website seems to have vanished in the last day or two. Anyone know what's happened to it?

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 03:16 PM

No, but if that's the case it's a very worrying development. I would imagine it has been archived by the BL site by now so it will still be available somewhere on the net.
Our Yorkshire Garland site has been archived but we only have enough cash at the moment to keep it up front for another 3 years or so. It costs about £230 inc VAT per year to keep it online.

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 01 Nov 10 - 10:00 AM

The correct urls are now:

Roger Ruff the ploughman

Old Adam was Father of All

For any other old links to the Wiltshire.gov Folk Song site, amend the url by replacing the 'WWW' with 'history' and they should work.

Bad idea, Wiltshire!

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,Lauren
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 06:45 AM

I came across the following in the National Archives records for
Chetham's Library: Belle Vue Zoological Gardens [F.4.4 - F.6.9]

(see http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/records.aspx?cat=418-f41f69_2&cid=-1)

Draft manuscript, interleaved with typing paper, faded, creased edges F.4.4.7.v 19thc-20thc

Insertion: Poem, printed c.1866 GEO GHEGAN'S/GUIDE TO BELLE VUE GARDENS... BY J.B. GEO GHEGAN SUNG ALSO BY ALBERT DE VOY. 6 Stanzas. G. Jennison's 'Season 1866' Pencil note Date To be had wholesale of J.B. GEOGHAN, Dog Inn, Deansgate, Manchester.
Creased. Bordered. Mounted on white board.

You can find out more baout Belle Vue Zoological Gardens here: http://manchesterhistory.net/bellevue/history.html

Archival history: The Belle Vue archive has been assembled by the Library over a period of over 70 years. The group includes papers given by George Jennison, the grandson of the founder and the last of the family to own the zoo, material given by Robert Nicholls, author of Looking back at Belle Vue (1990) and The Belle Vue Story (1992), and material given by R.T. Talbot, a former Deputy General Manager at Belle Vue.

Creators Belle Vue Zoological Gardens

So Geoghegan was in Manchester in 1866

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: greg stephens
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 08:14 AM

Any chance of getting a look at the lyrics of the Belle Vue song?

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 08:50 AM

Good time to visit Chetham's, especially as

"We are delighted to be able to offer a temporary home for Manchester Central Library's collection of tracts, chapbooks and broadsides while the library is closed for refurbishment. These are now starting to arrive and will be made available for study once they have been organised. For more information, please contact the librarian."

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,Lauren
Date: 12 Nov 10 - 10:46 AM

I will probably order a copy of this so I'll make sure you get the lyrics etc.

It seems the national archives may also hold a photo of JBG which i've ordered as well, which is quite exciting.

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,Tony Hearn
Date: 03 Jan 11 - 02:48 PM

The Charles Hearn mentioned in Aug 10 1889 is my Great Great Grandfather and would appear that he was the manager of several Gaiety type theatres
Lessee, Mr Chas. Hearn
Acting Manager, Mr Barry Ivor

There is no further mention of Amy/Dot Geoghegan (who is probably one and the same person). It's possible that Charles Hearn was renting the place from the Geoghegan family.

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 06:32 AM

Thanks for that, Tony. Do you know which ones?

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 10:35 AM

I can answer my own question:

Charles Hearn was manager of the New Gaiety Music Hall, Cheapside, Wolverhampton in the 1880's.

In 1885 he was fined £5 for supplying ale during prohibited hours.

He appears to have started and finished his career in the pub trade.

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: Rozza
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 11:41 AM

JBG is credited with the authorship of "Glossop Road" (about a Rifle Corps soldier courting 'the girls up Glossop Road') in "Cum All Yo Cutlin' Heroes", Smith Spalding and Sutton, Sheffield 1967, pp.12-13. Is this possibly a re-working of a song he used elsewhere? It was sold on a broadside in West Bar, near the Surrey Music Hall.

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 12:13 PM

Rozza - JBG often 'recycled' his songs, changing the words to suit the place where he happened to be performing.

Here's the 'fill in the blanks' version of The Girls Up The Road.

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 12:25 PM

...and here's a 'filled in' version from 1875.

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Jan 11 - 05:07 PM

Ruairidh, your old stamping ground, NatCect had a framed copy of the broadside of 'The Girls of Glossop Road' in the library.

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 21 Jan 11 - 05:00 PM

Sminky and anyone else interested. There's a broadside on Ebay at the moment by JBG. It's 1864 'Lines on the Great Sheffield Flood'. At £55 it's way beyond my pocket.

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: Rozza
Date: 01 Feb 11 - 02:56 PM

Thanks Sminky, rather suspected that. So much for it being a "Sheffield Song". Thanks, Steve, I must have a look if I ever get there again.

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,Joy Wodhams
Date: 05 Dec 11 - 05:23 PM

You may be interested to know that I'm also descended from Joseph Bryan Geoghegan via Jane Geoghegan, daughter of his first marriage.
I don't have all the details but I believe Jane married my great grandfather, surname Bird, somewhere around 1870-72. He and a partner named Bingham performed as Bingham and Bird, 'black grotesques' at several theatres including Leeds, Bolton, etc.   My grandmother was Jane Bird and amongst her siblings were Bessie Bird, a music hall performer, and Sydney Bird who performed under the name 'Una' as a trapeze artist. He was killed at the young age of 16 by falling, without the benefit of a safety net. I have a photograph of his grave in Liverpool, copy of a birth certificate for Jane Geoghegan born at Salford 1852, and in memoriam cards for Joseph Geoghegan died 1867 age 26, and Bessie Bird and Sydney Bird

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 06 Dec 11 - 05:35 AM

Hi Joy, and welcome.

Sydney Bird married Jane Groghegan [sic] at Liverpool St. Peter in 1872.

I'll see what I can find out about the family (I have Bird ancestors myself).

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,JOY WODHAMS
Date: 06 Dec 11 - 06:21 AM

Many thanks! Would love to know about your Bird ancestors too. I have a case of photos which belonged to my grandmother, Jane Allen, nee Bird, which includes photos of some of the family including the Sydney Bird/'Una' who was a trapeze artist. I did have a wonderful coloured 18thc poster showing Una on the trapeze (star billing!) but unfortunately one of the family gave it away.
I'm really intrigued by JBG's double life - we had no idea!

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 06 Dec 11 - 07:04 AM

Sydney Bird senior was a 'retired trapeze artist' in 1891. Born Chatham, Kent about 1851, his death was registered in West Derby, Liverpool in 1908 aged 56.

In 1871 he was languishing in jail in Chester Castle!

No relation to me, unfortunately.

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,Joy Wodhams
Date: 06 Dec 11 - 09:56 AM

Thanks again. What a colourful family we have!

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 06 Dec 11 - 12:28 PM

Looks like this is JBG's first marriage:

Marriage: 23 Jul 1833 St Mary the Virgin, Eccles, Lancashire, England
Joseph Geoghegan - of this Parish
Elizabeth Hopwood - of this Parish
    Witness: Thomas Gorse; John Morris
    Married by Banns by: Wm. MacIvor Curate
    Register: Marriages 1833 - 1834, Page 72, Entry 214

followed by a mass baptism:

Baptisms: 9 Nov 1845 St Philip, Salford, Lancashire, England
Harriet Geoghegan - Child of Joseph Geoghegan & Elizabeth
    Abode: Salford
    Occupation: Fustian Cutter
    Baptised by: I. Robley
    Register: Baptisms 1826 - 1848, Page 151, Entry 1203

Baptisms: 9 Nov 1845 St Philip, Salford, Lancashire, England
Edwin Geoghegan - Child of Joseph Geoghegan & Elizabeth
    Abode: Salford
    Occupation: Fustian Cutter
    Baptised by: I. Robley
    Register: Baptisms 1826 - 1848, Page 151, Entry 1204

Baptisms: 9 Nov 1845 St Philip, Salford, Lancashire, England
Frederick Geoghegan - Child of Joseph Geoghegan & Elizabeth
    Abode: Salford
    Occupation: Fustian Cutter
    Baptised by: I. Robley
    Register: Baptisms 1826 - 1848, Page 151, Entry 1205

Baptisms: 9 Nov 1845 St Philip, Salford, Lancashire, England
Joseph James Geoghegan - Child of Joseph Geoghegan & Elizabeth
    Abode: Salford
    Occupation: Fustian Cutter
    Baptised by: I. Robley
    Register: Baptisms 1826 - 1848, Page 151, Entry 1206

Baptisms: 9 Nov 1845 St Philip, Salford, Lancashire, England
James Geoghegan - Child of Joseph Geoghegan & Elizabeth
    Abode: Salford
    Occupation: Fustian Cutter
    Baptised by: I. Robley
    Register: Baptisms 1826 - 1848, Page 151, Entry 1207

Baptisms: 9 Nov 1845 St Philip, Salford, Lancashire, England
Elizabeth Geoghegan - Child of Joseph Geoghegan & Elizabeth
    Abode: Salford
    Occupation: Fustian Cutter
    Baptised by: I. Robley
    Register: Baptisms 1826 - 1848, Page 151, Entry 1208


No mention of his musical activities.

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,JOY WODHAMS
Date: 06 Dec 11 - 06:36 PM

Hi again
I replied to your last post but I don't think it got to you.
Thanks again and I will pass all the above to my family, including my daughter Bryony who may contact you at some stage.
I have a photo which I think is of Joseph Bryan Geoghegan and hope to compare this with the one mentioned in an archive (Manchester?).
Hope you get this post!

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,Bryony Mitchell
Date: 06 Dec 11 - 06:42 PM

Hi, this is so interesting! I'm Joy Wodhams' daughter and we're both fascinated by our family history. Is there a way of posting a photograph of Joseph on here? I've got one scanned in but can't see how to post it. He certainly sounds quite a character!!

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 12:57 AM

You might load your photo onto a photo sharing site then post a link here - that will certainly work. If you don't know how to make the "blue clickie" then post the link and someone will come along and make it a hot link for you.

SRS

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 04:15 AM

I'd certainly like to see a photo of the rascal!

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 08:31 AM

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150487218718142&set=a.10150487218213142.421439.586723141&type=1&theater

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u33/Bryony_2007/Rellies/Save0002.jpg


Hope one of these works.... If they do I can also share the link to Sydney Bird junior and Bessie Bird if anyone wants a look. Plus I've got a photo of Bingham & Bird who we now think, thanks to the information here, is Sydney Bird senior, plus a handbill for his act!

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 08:33 AM

[IMG]http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u33/Bryony_2007/Rellies/Save0002.jpg[/IMG]

That didn't work, just trying again!

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 08:39 AM

Click here

--------Clicky added. Mudelf---------------------

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 09:17 AM

Cheers! That's the man himself.... Quite a rascally rogue!

This one is Sydney Bird junior, the trapeze artist who died at 16 years:
Click here

And this is his sister Bessie Bird, singer: Click here
You can really see the eye likeness between JBG and Bessie

And this one is of Bingham & Bird, and we now think the Bird is Sydney Bird senior: Click here

---

GUEST, please use your name or choose a moniker and use it in each post. Especially as this fascinating family tree grows, we would like to know who is contributing which bits. You should consider joining Mudcat. ---mudelf

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 12:41 PM

Great pics. Thanks for sharing.

I'm a bit disappointed with JBG - I was expecting some kind of lecherous Lothario figure like you used to see in silent movies!

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Dec 11 - 12:56 PM

Wonderful photos. Thanks so much for sharing!

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,Bryony Mitchell
Date: 08 Dec 11 - 07:47 AM

I still can't get over him fathering 21 children - that we know of! I guess some of us must be related....

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,LNewby
Date: 08 Feb 12 - 09:44 AM

Wow, I don't check this for a couple of weeks, and look what I'm missing!

I have the other photograph of him from the National Archives, will dig it out and get it online asap for you. It cuold be the same man as the other photo of him on here, but I'm not 100% sure. He's much older (do you have a date for that photo?) and clean-shaven in my photo, so it makes comparison quite difficult - plus I don't have it to hand to compare at the moment, I'm just doing it from memory!

Those of you who are family historians, you can find my tree on ancestry - username: newbylf

and you might also be interested in my blog, here:

http://probablyarboreal.blogspot.com/

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,LNewby
Date: 08 Feb 12 - 10:00 AM

By theby, do any of you with family connections have links with the Stoke on Trent area? Or indeed, have family members you know to have performed there. As well as Geoghegan managing the thatre in Hanley, his son-in-law Matt Hall was the manager of the Wedgewood Theatre/Hippodrome in Burslem, Stoke-on-Trent from it's opening in 1896 until at least 1912.

This amusing snippet was passed on to me by someone I know through work (I work in local history publishing)

"Not to be forgotten was the old Burslem Theatre, the Hippodrome, situated between the top of Scotia Road and Baddeley Street. Its popular name was 'The Blood Tub', although the 'Blood Tub' was originally the Wedgwood Theatre of 1903 which was demolished to make way for the new Town Hall of 1911. The Hippodrome was a big, and eventually decrepit, one-storey wooden building closed in 1940 and demolished soon after World War II. In its early days it was run by a man named Matt Hall. Most of the plays were of a 'villainous' nature, alternating with boxing and weightlifting competitions. One one occasion a pallid potter was trying to lift an enormous barbell. 'His futile efforts brought forth derisive yells from his workmates in the audience'. This so exasperated him that he dropped one of the barbells on the stage, with a huge bang, and shouted to his tormentors, 'Thee bloddy well come and try!' Matt Hall was so convulsed with laughter that he became seriously ill and was rushed home!"
(A Sociological History of the Borough of Stoke-on-Trent (1977), Ernest Warrillow, p. 680.)

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,LNewby (Lauren)
Date: 08 Feb 12 - 10:47 AM

Found it!

photograph of JB Geoghegan

also see info
provided with photograph from National Archives

Do you think it is the same man?

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 08 Feb 12 - 11:03 AM

Lauren,

Those photos are not visible to non-members of Ancestry.

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,LNewby
Date: 08 Feb 12 - 11:41 AM

Thanks for the heads up, will try and post them somewhere visible and relink asap. L

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,LNewby
Date: 08 Feb 12 - 11:50 AM

Can you see these?

JB Geoghegan photograph

info about photograph

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,GUEST.JOYWODHAMS
Date: 08 Feb 12 - 12:50 PM

This photograph certainly looks different from the one I have but agree it's hard to tell as there's no beard and he's at least 30 or 40 years older, I think. Our Joe is definitely a family member, as most of us have the same eyes!
However, mine isn't certified by anyone - is it definitely proven that the other is JBG?

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 08 Feb 12 - 12:55 PM

Yes, thanks.

Hmmmm.....old man has bulbous nose, young man has eyelids, both have sort of similar hairstyles.

No 'aha' moment though. Any family resemblance to either?

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 08 Feb 12 - 12:57 PM

Sorry, my last post was in response to Lauren's.

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,GUEST.JOYWODHAMS
Date: 08 Feb 12 - 02:48 PM

I have noticed that a lot of older men develop bulbous noses - even my ex-husband, I hardly recognised him last time I bumped into him! I gather he does like a glass of wine, which probably contributes - but then, I guess JBG did too.

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,Lauren
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 04:59 AM

I stared at it for a while. I think it could be the same man, but I'm not certain. If you zoom in and just look at features individually, they're not so different as to discount it.

As for family resemblance, I couldn't say exactly what it was, but when I first looked at my photograph, I did sort of feel that yes, he does look like he could be a relative. He definitely wouldn't look completely out of place anyway.

But then how much can you really tell, he is my dad's mum's mum's mum's mum's dad - there's a six generation gap. Say I am exactly 50% my dad's gene's and he's 50% his mum's, and so on, then logically I am less than 1% JBG's genes. So any resemblance could be coincidental in any case!

As for certification, I literally only have the info that came with it from the Nattional Archives. Interestingly, it was copyrighted literally days after Geoghegan's death, which makes me think it most likely is of him - a savvy photographer trying to cash in on anyone wanting to use the photograph for obituaries etc, perhaps?

I'm wondering if you could perhaps get your photograph dated Joan, as this might give you more of a clue. I spoke to someone at Who Do You Think You Are Live last year, and she confirmed that my photograph was late 19th century, so probably taken in the few years before Geoghegan died. To my untrained eye, yours does look like an older photograph, but how much older and whether that would tally up with the age difference I couldn't even begin to guess.

I would observe that they are dressed very similarly - they could be wearing the same jacket! I'm not sure whether that's helpful or not - I don't know how much the style of a man's jacket would be likely to change over that sort of time span.

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,Lauren
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 05:03 AM

Just a thought - perhaps it's Joseph Geoghegan Jr (I'm assuming it's labelled as 'Joe', from your last comment). You said he died in 1867 aged 26. This could have been taken not long berfore he died perhaps? Do you think the man in that picture culd be in his early twenties? Again, it's hard to tell with that beard!

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 05:19 AM

Next time I'm in Bolton Archives I'll see if there's anything in the local newspapers. You would think there would, given that he was a local celebrity.

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,bryonymitchell
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 07:05 AM

I'd wondered the same thing about whether our photo is of JBG junior. All that face fungus makes it so hard to tell their age!

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,Sean Murphy
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 05:27 PM

Very interesting, L Newby, your links to the photograph of the older J B Geoghegan and the Stationers' Hall copyright registration 1889. I have recently commissioned some Stationers' Hall research in the National Archives but did not reach these items. The Index to the Registers 1842-84 lists the following Geoghegan songs only: 'A Diamond in the Rough', 'Lines on the Great Flood', 'Napoleon Talks of War, Boys', 'Oh, Marigold!', 'Rock the Cradle, John', 'Same Old Game', 'Volunteers, Rouse and be Ready'. With the exception of 'Oh Marigold', all of these appear in Sminky's list of songs above, dated 7 May 10.

As per the separate thread 'Cockles and Mussels' I am particularly interested in establishing whether J B Geoghegan wrote the famous Dublin song of the name, starring Molly Malone, as well as the quite similar but now less well known London version starring Jim the Musselman.

Subject: RE: Joseph Bryan Geoghegan, travelling singer, 1800s
From: GUEST,Sean Murphy
Date: 10 Feb 12 - 06:09 PM

Correction: Sminky's list features 'Oh! Marigold'.