BS: The Moat has shot himself (UK fugitive)

Subject: BS: The moat has shot himself
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 06:25 AM

A very nasty piece of work by all accounts.

Subject: RE: BS: The moat has shot himself
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 06:36 AM

Who knows how he reached the point where he did the things he did.... we all choose a path for ourselves... and hope that we don't get shot on the way eh???

Subject: RE: BS: The moat has shot himself
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 06:37 AM

Cowards way out, I'm not surprised.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: The moat has shot himself
From: gnu
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 06:41 AM

Who?

Subject: RE: BS: The moat has shot himself
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 06:47 AM

Always nice if you can enlighten the non-locals.......Raoul Moat

I assume this is it???


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: The moat has shot himself
From: mauvepink
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 06:50 AM

On the surface it looks like he really was an unpleasant character... but who knows what lay beneath and what drove hime to do as he has done?

As the story has unfurled throughout the week there has been an almost inevitability as to the outcome if and when the Police caught up with him. That he took his own life has, at least, spared maybe a Police Officer having to do it for him. I feared that the most as there must always be terrible repercussions on Police when they shoot someone. They have tried to negotiate with him but his death does not show failure in their endeavours. Rather it is a reflection on his unknown state of mind.

Bad as everyone is saying he was, at least he never went on a total rampage, shooting all and sundry in his path, and I would suspect that shows restraint rather than pure evil.

I am sure that most people will be glad that it is all over, especially for those people in the villages that have lived in fear for their own lives this past week, but it would be wrong to celebrate his death. Our thoughts really should be for his family and friends, because people have loved him in his life, and for those that have been caught up in his wake. For him it is now over. For them, I suspect, it will go on for a long time.

mp

Subject: RE: BS: The moat has shot himself
From: Emma B
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 06:55 AM

'The week-long hunt for the fugitive Raoul Moat came to a climax last night as the police finally located and cornered the elusive gunman.

Scores of residents were trapped within the police cordon and many were terrified they would be caught in the crossfire if Moat tried to start shooting at police.'

Moat was wanted in connection with shooting his former partner Samantha Stobbart, 22, killing her new partner Chris Brown, 29, and seriously injuring PC David Rathband, 42.

This hunt in NE England for a gunman who ended up shooting himeself occured only 5 weeks or so after the shooting of 12 people in the Lake District in NW England

Lots of coverage in the UK press where incidents like this are still blessedly rare

Subject: RE: BS: The moat has shot himself
From: Emma B
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 07:12 AM

Last week questions were also being asked about the role of illicit anabolic steroids which Moat, a 6ft 3 ex bouncer, was said to be taking

'According to the charity DrugScope, many people who use anabolic steroids are 'self improvers'.

They like to think of themselves as healthy and fit and getting ahead in the world. Even if they are injecting, they don't think of themselves as drug-users, any more than somebody who regularly takes vitamin pills.

Like Moat, many have been doormen or security guards. But young men are increasingly getting involved in taking steroids to improve their body image, rather than for sport-related body-building, says the charity.

Anabolic steroids are drugs that are usually synthesised from the male hormone testosterone.

They have been banned by many sporting bodies, including the International Olympic Committee, because of their danger to health and the potential for competitive advantage.......

As well as the physical risks, steroids can also have an impact on mood and behaviour.

Research in athletes who use anabolic steroids suggests that both men and women can develop extremely aggressive behaviour.

Some athletes believe this can be advantageous, to promote harder and more intensive training.

But it can also be destructive.

Abuse can cause dramatic mood swings, depression, paranoid jealousy, extreme irritability, delusions and impaired judgement.

Chris Hudson, a nurse from drugs information service Frank, said: "The drugs can make normally calm people feel irritable, aggressive and even violent. They can cause dramatic mood swings and lead to paranoia, confusion and insomnia'

From BBC News report 6th July

which also goes on to state

'To date it's not been possible to prove a causal effect between anabolic steroids and aggression.

"Part of the problem is that a lot of the side-effects are self-reported so there is a high level of bias.

"Also, because of the nature of the drugs used it is rare to identify the exact drug used. It's an illicit market - most of the drugs are fake or counterfeit and we do not know what's in them." '

An incident is 'closed' for most - but not everyone as mauvepink points out - and we may never know what drives people to such extreme forms of jealousy, agression and, ultimately, self destruction

Subject: RE: BS: The moat has shot himself
From: kendall
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 07:14 AM

What is a PC?

Subject: RE: BS: The moat has shot himself
From: Emma B
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 07:17 AM

A PC is a Police Constable aka a Bobby :)

Subject: RE: BS: The moat has shot himself
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 07:19 AM

Police constable, I believe.

Subject: RE: BS: The moat has shot himself
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 07:21 AM

Sorry, I'm just a bit slow.

Subject: RE: BS: The moat has shot himself
From: mauvepink
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 07:37 AM

Well jealousy itself is a major driving force in lots of aggression. "Othello Syndrome" has been described psychiatrically for many years. I actually nursed two men with the syndrome in my 19 years on the yards. One patient was particularly aggressive against the Charge Nurse I worked with often. Each time he was given medication he became convinced we were trying to drug him so the Charge Nurse could nip out and go to have an affair with his wife. He lost most rationality when it came to his jealousy over his wife.

He was a good man. Loved his wife and his family. A good husband and dad. But he started 'losing it' when he had a paranoid episode due depression and it then manifested itself as Othello Syndrome. He could be quite a handful in the early days of his treatment. Of course, sometimes there can be actual truth behind what starts the jealousy too, and the sufferer becomes unbelieved when, in fact, what they say they have seen happening IS happening!

One never knows what will and does drive some people to do what they do. Time and again I am minded to think of the phrase "But for the grace of God go I". How true it is and we can all only ever be grateful we are not touched by some of the things that touch others.

mp

Subject: RE: BS: The moat has shot himself
From: danensis
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 08:48 AM

It also shows that the prison system doesn't work. He was only inside for having a knuckle duster in his car - if we locked up every night club doorman who owns a knuckle duster our night clubs would be much less safe places. There are even groups making out he was a hero for taking revenge on the girlfriend who abandoned him once he was put away.

Subject: RE: BS: The moat has shot himself
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 08:58 AM

Night clubs would be much safer places without doormen. The bouncer business has always been infested with organized crime and sometimes has been a front for fascist groupings. CAMRA refuses to list any pub that employs bouncers, for good reason.

It seems from what I've read about this story that some of Moat's friends encouraged and assisted him in his rampage (perhaps wanting him to "have a go" on their behalf at people they didn't want to confront themselves).

This has all been like a story out of a Child ballad (on steroids). Tragic for everybody.

Subject: RE: BS: The moat has shot himself
From: Emma B
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 09:29 AM

37 year old Raoul was released from Durham Prison on Thursday, 1 July after being sentenced to 18 weeks for an assault on a younger relative.

He had one previous conviction, for common assault, but had been arrested 12 times and charged with seven separate offences.

Described as a 'body builder fanatic' it has also been claimed that he frequently used 'violence and abusive behaviour to control those closest to him' and their families.

In 2005, he was stopped by police who searched the borrowed car he was driving and discovered an eight inch serrated steel knuckle duster in a secret compartmen and a 5ft long Samurai sword.

He was inprisoned for ASSAULT danensis!

and I can believe the groups you referred to - there have been several on the net advocating the beating up of women

Subject: RE: BS: The moat has shot himself
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 09:40 AM

I wonder if it is the other way round. Nasty nutters go into the doorman business (almost almost all doorkeepers I have met I would not want to meet in a dark alley - and one, when bored, would draw on himself - by cutting himself with a sheath knife) for self gratification by being allowed to use force on others who are not allowed to use force back. Nasty nutters also use steroids to facilitate that type of behaviour.

Subject: RE: BS: The moat has shot himself
From: mauvepink
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 09:57 AM

Not all doormen are 'nasty nutters'. Surely that stereotype has been diminished greatly in modern days? I have known some very kind and well educated people who have worked on doors. I am not sure about the rest of the country but in Greater Manchester, for instance, I believe all door persons have to be licenced (and there are a lot of women also employed in the role). Having taken the time to chat to many I can tell you some have had quite bad starts in life, some good, and some are quite well off (NOT from the proceeds of crime). Some choose the job for non violent reasons. They are not all undiciplined bullies as seems to be suggested.

I have been shown to my car - for no ulterior motive - on a number of occasions by doormen who wanted to make sure of my safety when 'rowdies' were around. I do not think it very fair to paint them all with the same brush. There are good and bad in ALL jobs.

The whole thing is now under investigation from the Independant Police Complaints Authority and I have no doubt they will look particularly at the role of the warning from the Prison Service and how that was acted on before all the shooting started. Aa always there will be lessons learned from all aspects of this tragic case. All we can do is be grateful that it has not turned out to be even more tragic.

mp

Subject: RE: BS: The moat has shot himself
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 11:07 AM

Raoul Moat was only a few days out of prison when he shot his former girlfriend and her new bloke and a totally innocent policeman [ apparently cos he blames the police for everything ] He already had a shotgun and a handgun stashed away and at least three mobile phones, he was nothing more than a violent cowardly thug.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: The moat has shot himself
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 11:27 AM

"Not all doormen are 'nasty nutters'."

Yeah, I know one very laid back chap who works on doors.
Came off the same council estate as me. Nothing nasty about him, he was just into - and good at - martial arts from a kid.

To be honest, many of the lads I knew in my old area were 'into' "violence", in the sense of taking knives/numb chucks/knuckle dusters etc. to school back when they were pretty young - including him. It was just a boy thing! But he wasn't violent then, and still isn't now.

He learned self-discipline from his martial arts training. Now he has to deal with those who weren't as genuinely interested in combat sports as him - and consequently haven't developed the same kinds of self-discipline which make him able to safely manage such drunken fools when they're busy trying to provoke him into fighting them..

Subject: RE: BS: The moat has shot himself
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 12:28 PM

I didnt know him, however to kill yourself requires bravery.
he did the best thing , he has saved the state a lot of money.
he would probably have been inside for a very long time.
Ifeel sympathy for all concerned[including him] but particularly the relatives of the people he killed.

Subject: RE: BS: The moat has shot himself
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 12:29 PM

Turns out the police used tazers on him, there is more mileage in this sordid episode yet!

Subject: RE: BS: The moat has shot himself
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 12:35 PM

what are tazers?

Subject: RE: BS: The moat has shot himself
From: Emma B
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 12:45 PM

"I didnt know him, however to kill yourself requires bravery."

I don't think bravery (a brave man does not assault women and children) was involved - rather despair and drug induced rage

"Throughout the six hours of negotiations that preceded the tragic finale, officers had attempted to befriend Moat, addressing him only as Raoul while repeatedly offering assurances he would not come to any harm.

Moat kept telling them he had to nothing to live for. "I haven't got a dad," he said an hour into the talks, referring to the fact that he had never known his real father. The negotiators would have been briefed that the reported comments from his mother last week that she would rather see him dead would have gravely undermined his desire to live.

Just before 9pm, 100 minutes into the negotiations that would end with him fatally shooting himself, Moat was overheard telling police "nobody cares about me".'

Guardian report today

Subject: RE: BS: The moat has shot himself
From: mauvepink
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 12:46 PM

Tazer

One of those electronic shock 'guns' they use to stun people with

mp

Subject: RE: BS: The moat has shot himself
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 01:44 PM

"Night clubs would be much safer places without doormen."

I'm not quite sure what a night club is these days - is it a place formerly known as a discoteque? If so what has happened to all the discos, and furthermore what has happened to the premises formerly known as night clubs??????

I suppose they are a tool of the ipod generation!

Subject: RE: BS: The moat has shot himself
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 01:55 PM

It was clear when he left prison that he intended to harm certain people. Why was he not given help and support and why were the people at risk not given protection?

Subject: RE: BS: The moat has shot himself
From: kendall
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 02:01 PM

Any man who beats up a woman is a coward. He got what he deserves.

Subject: RE: BS: The moat has shot himself
From: mauvepink
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 02:01 PM

eanjay, I am almost sure that the points you raise will be at the very centre of any post-mortem investigation by the IPCC about this particular case.

For sure there are lots of facts to still emerge about this past weeks events

mp

Subject: RE: BS: The moat has shot himself
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 02:09 PM

I repeat ,to kill yourself requires bravery, regardless of anything else that he did that might have been despicable.

Subject: RE: BS: The moat has shot himself
From: mauvepink
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 02:35 PM

It may turn out that the tazer shock caused a contraction of his finger that pulled on the trigger. We have no idea just now whether the tazer was fired before or after he pulled the trigger. Until we really do have the facts, at this moment, it only appears he may have killed himself. This man must have been exhausted. How much sleep will he have managed in the past week? Cornered on the edge of a field, no-where to run, constant running water flowing behind you, the noise of a helicopter constantly overhead, people shouting/talking to you, maybe lights in your face... in a war zone this wouuld be considered torture (NO, I am not suggesting the Police were using such methods). What effects would that have on anyone?

I agree with Kendall about any man beating on a woman or a child (anyone for that matter)... but I also know that killing yourself can actually be a very brave thing too. It's a selfish thing but not necessarily a cowardly act.

We should let the investigation run its course now and see what unfurls. Anything else could be suupposition.

mp

Subject: RE: BS: The moat has shot himself
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 03:16 PM

To kill yourself is a COWARDS way out, a brave man would have answered the consequences of his actions, Raoul Moat brave ? my arse.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: The moat has shot himself
From: Emma B
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 03:38 PM

"Why was he not given help and support?"

Short-term prisoners are defined as prisoners sentenced to less than 12 months in prison. They constitute the majority of those sentenced to imprisonment each year
In 2002, 95,000 people in total were sentenced to prison and of those, 53,000 were sentenced to six months or less
Prisoners on short-term sentences account for 11% of the total prison population at any one time

Short-term prisoners constitute one of the biggest challenges to a prison rehabilitation strategy. They have a wide range of offending motivators, most critically in relation to accommodation, employment, alcohol or drug dependency.
The majority will also have significant educational and behavioural needs and deficiencies.

However, like remand prisoners, the majority of short-term prisoners spend their time in local prisons, which are the most overcrowded and provide the most basic prison regime.

As HM Chief Inspector of Prisons has commented, because of the 'churn' of prisoners through the system, local prisons achieve little more than 'humane containment': "the prisons where they are held are struggling to provide the basics of decency and safety, let alone purposeful activity and rehabilitation"
(Halliday Report: Making punishments work)


THERE IS CURRENTLY NO PRISON REHABILITATION REGIME SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED TO MEET THE NEEDS OF SHORT-TERM PRISONERS.

The claimed justification for this is that prisoners serving short sentences are not inside long enough for rehabilitation programmes to make a difference.
However, it has been argued that the lack of attention paid to short-term prisoners during their stay in prison, COMBINED WITH THE LACK OF RESETTLEMENT SERVICES OR SOCIAL SUPPORT FOLLOWING THEIR RELEASE, helps to create a 'revolving doors' pattern of those prisoners re-offending and returning to prison within a short space of time after release.

From Select Committee on Home Affairs First Report Jan 2005

Subject: RE: BS: The moat has shot himself
From: Old Vermin
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 03:48 PM

In defence of doorman in general, the only two that I have known at all well are not unpleasant or unsafe characters as far as I can tell.

One is a bit self-righteous and not as bright as he thinks he is - went to a special school - was involved in minor theft when much younger but is essentially OK. Working as a hire-car & coach driver anyway, these days. And a good raconteur.

The other was a very conscientious storeman who, annoyingly, left to enter an uncle's fish-and-chip business. This hadn't worked out, so I later saw him in passing on the door of a local pub - his normal stolid self.

Didn't know CAMRA didn't list pubs with doormen - thank you Jack - but this follows my own judgement in choosing pubs.

Subject: RE: BS: The moat has shot himself
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 03:48 PM

Cut and paste seems to be rife

Subject: RE: BS: The moat has shot himself
From: Emma B
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 03:50 PM

"Moat had been serving an 18-week sentence for a "low-level" assault on a family member and was released at the half-way point of two months and two days.

As a short sentence prisoner, he was not required to be supervised by the probation service once he had walked out.

Police sources suggested earlier that Moat had told other inmates he was going to kill when he got out but did not say who was his intended target: "He was a man hell bent on revenge. He was full of rage," the sources were quoted as saying.

Prison authorities were believed to be acting on this intelligence when they warned police.

However, if they had felt the intelligence was strong enough to warrant immediate action, they could have warned the police earlier to enable them to carry out a "gate arrest" as he stepped out of prison."

As mauvepink posted earlier -

"It will now be up to the IPCC to decide whether more action could have been taken after the warnings."

"Raoul Moat: IPCC to investigate police response to prison warning" Guardian report 5th July

Subject: RE: BS: The moat has shot himself
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 04:00 PM

My gut feeling is that it would have been much better all round if he had done it say 20 years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: The moat has shot himself
From: kendall
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 04:36 PM

Those birds who flew into the towers were certainly not cowards.
Dave is right. Maybe he had a split personality or no impulse control.

Subject: RE: BS: The moat has shot himself
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 05:11 PM

I was turned away from a nightclub as a teenager once. I was a student at the time wearing (gasp) Converse plimps, and the club was mainly filled with squaddies wearing shirts and ties.

I wonder if anyone can guess who generally starts the most fights in that town: the scruffy oik students, or the smartly dressed squaddies?

Hmmm...

Subject: RE: BS: The moat has shot himself
From: Old Vermin
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 05:40 PM

So was Crow Sister turned away for her own protection?

Subject: RE: BS: The moat has shot himself
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 06:16 PM

See ebay.co.uk,. item 160454558714

Subject: RE: BS: The moat has shot himself
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 06:56 PM

It appears to ahve ben taken down

Subject: RE: BS: The moat has shot himself
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Jul 10 - 07:06 PM

It had his face with the caption "Raoul Moat - Hide & Seek Champion 2010".

Subject: RE: BS: The Moat has shot himself (UK fugitive)
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 02:45 AM

Squaddies? Converse plimps? Are those English words?

Subject: RE: BS: The Moat has shot himself (UK fugitive)
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 03:23 AM

!I'm not quite sure what a night club is these days - is it a place formerly known as a discoteque? If so what has happened to all the discos, and furthermore what has happened to the premises formerly known as night clubs??????

I suppose they are a tool of the ipod generation! "

No answers???????????

Subject: RE: BS: The Moat has shot himself (UK fugitive)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 03:55 AM

Converse is, I believe, a make of footwear, and plimps, is slang for plimsolls.
Squaddies is another slang word, it refers to soldiers, usually the lower ranks. A derivation of squad.

Subject: RE: BS: The Moat has shot himself (UK fugitive)
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 04:10 AM

Sorry to those confused!

Basically I was commenting on the dumb 'dress codes' many night spots have, because they don't want scruffy people 'lowering the tone'.

They like their clientele to dress "smartly" - so no trainers, no t shirts and no jeans allowed in. Which rules out most students, who generally don't start fights. But, they do welcome plenty of aggressive drunken army lads wearing "smart" Ben Sherman shirts, who do.

Subject: RE: BS: The Moat has shot himself (UK fugitive)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 04:21 AM

There are plenty of aggressive drunken non-army lads wearing 'smart' shirts starting fights around our town, CS.

And plenty of aggressive drunken non-army lasses doing the same thing.

Subject: RE: BS: The Moat has shot himself (UK fugitive)
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 04:53 AM

So many people, who know so few of the facts, saying so much!

DC

Subject: RE: BS: The Moat has shot himself (UK fugitive)
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 05:01 AM

"So many people, who know so few of the facts, saying so much!"

We know what the media sees fit and is allowed to let us know - nothing unusial in that!

Subject: RE: BS: The Moat has shot himself (UK fugitive)
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 05:13 AM

We know what the media sees fit and is allowed to let us know - nothing unusial in that!

Well, if it came via the media, I suppose it must be true.

Subject: RE: BS: The Moat has shot himself (UK fugitive)
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 07:20 AM

"around our town, CS."

Fine, but you live in your town. I've no idea if it's a garrison town or not, but the town *I* was describing is a garrison town, which is why there are a lot of squaddies there. They dress up smartly, go out in big groups, get bladdered and of course start fights.

The point I was making was that contrary to popular opinion "smart" doesn't equate to nice respectable citizens, and "scruffy" doesn't equate to troublesome or problematic ones, and that such dress-codes as adopted by many night spots, are plainly ridiculous.

Subject: RE: BS: The Moat has shot himself (UK fugitive)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 07:58 AM

I believe that Aaron Stone's Casino in Rochester (as regularly featured on "England's Hardest Streets" and "Police Action" and similar "reality" TV shows) has a dress code too - but it is the source of probably most of the nighttime violence in Rochester.

Subject: RE: BS: The Moat has shot himself (UK fugitive)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 08:04 AM

I understood your point CS, and I don't dispute what you say.
Except that mine isn't a garrison town, and it's not only soldiers who go out to battle on Saturday nights.

"They dress up smartly, go out in big groups, get bladdered and of course start fights."

A stereotype of the people in your town - happens to be the same stereotype that applies to the people in our town, the only difference being that in your town 'They' are soldiers, in my town 'They' are civilians. So it's not only soldiers who start fights - your point seemed to be that it is.

Subject: RE: BS: The Moat has shot himself (UK fugitive)
From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 01:54 PM

One innocent man is dead. His girlfriend was shot twice, although now she's apparently saying how much she loved him. An innocent policeman was shot in the face and is probably going to lose his sight, despite the best attempts of his eye surgeons, who are not holding out much hope.

If his girlfriend still loves him, that's up to her.

However, my sympathies lie with the family of the murdered man, and the family of the possibly blinded policeman. The lives of all those concerned will never again be the same.

There was no excuse for what he did, even if there were reasons. In choosing to go ahead and pull that trigger, on three different people, he lost his right to life and to sympathy, as far as I'm concerned. My sympathy is entirely with those left behind who now have to pick up the shattered pieces of their wrecked lives...and soldier on..and THEY are the brave ones, not the man who decided to kill himself after he'd killed others.

I don't give a toss about tazer's and where his finger was, if he jumped etc...He's gone. He will never again be able to terrify anyone, hurt, maim, blind or murder them.   I certainly hope that the police are not going to have to now account for every single move they made, with the man who fired the tazer being held to account for the death of this man. If that happens...I'm leaving for the Moon, because we have truly lost the plot, as a Nation and as a Species...

I hope and pray that injured man gets his sight restored because to have to live his life in utter darkness from now on is a terrible life sentence to have to endure, which is going to requires the strength of Samson.

Subject: RE: BS: The Moat has shot himself (UK fugitive)
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 02:05 PM

"In choosing to go ahead and pull that trigger, on three different people, he lost his right to life and to sympathy, as far as I'm concerned."

No-one has a "right" to receiving sympathy.

Compassionate feelings towards other human beings, are something freely given by those who choose to freely give. Unlike with the law, there are no formal rules about who are "deserving" of compassion, and who are not.

I understand the Good Soldiers sentiments. I found it all very sad, including this fucked-up man's last moments.

The question of how we as a society attempt to deal with people who are so damaging, is another matter. Pragmatically, I suspect overall - including for him - this man is possibly better off dead.

Subject: RE: BS: The Moat has shot himself (UK fugitive)
From: MikeL2
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 02:14 PM

hi Lizzie

I couldn't agree with you more.

Already the media is trying to build up a case against the police. His brother has said that this was like public execution etc etc

What choice did the police have but to conduct the persuasion to give himself up in public. He was caught with a gun in his hands and he went to the ground with the gun held to his head. How could they do other than try to talk to him where they did in the open.

My thoughts are not with this murderer but with the victims and their friends and families.

He was given every chance to give himself up peacefully and he declined that chance.

If he had put the gun down he would still be alive, the choice was his and it was one that he had said previously he would take, in that he wouldn't be taken alive.

Regards

Mikel2

Subject: RE: BS: The Moat has shot himself (UK fugitive)
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 02:21 PM

"I don't give a toss about tazer's and where his finger was, if he jumped etc...He's gone. He will never again be able to terrify anyone, hurt, maim, blind or murder them.   I certainly hope that the police are not going to have to now account for every single move they made, with the man who fired the tazer being held to account for the death of this man. If that happens...I'm leaving for the Moon, because we have truly lost the plot, as a Nation and as a Species..."
lizzie, the Police are accountable and should be accountable becasue they are paid to protect society, what you think and what I think matters little....
Ithink it woulds be a pity if you went to the moon.

Subject: RE: BS: The Moat has shot himself (UK fugitive)
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 02:26 PM

Everyone needs a dog to kick and the families of such no good scumbags have the Police to blame everything on.

Plimsolls? To me, an old sailor. Plimsoll refers to the marks on the hull of a ship that tells how deep in the water it is laden.Naturally, it was created by a man named Plimsoll.

Subject: RE: BS: The Moat has shot himself (UK fugitive)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 02:33 PM

Samuel

Subject: RE: BS: The Moat has shot himself (UK fugitive)
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 03:03 PM

Moat had a choice, the dead man and two badly wounded didn't, it was his choice.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: The Moat has shot himself (UK fugitive)
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 03:22 PM

Lizzie is 100% right.

Subject: RE: BS: The Moat has shot himself (UK fugitive)
From: Emma B
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 04:01 PM

From Blair Peach to Ian Tomlinson
From Harry Stanley to Jean Charles de Menezes .....

The police, like every public service, have to remain accountable. - they should be accountable to the people they serve as the new Home Secretary stated.

Thank heavens we do not yet live in a police state; maybe Life on Mars (or even the moon) is different :-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Moat has shot himself (UK fugitive)
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 05:14 PM

Emma B Iagree

Subject: RE: BS: The Moat has shot himself (UK fugitive)
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 05:20 PM

Speaking as a law enforcement wife, the Police generally consider a shoot out to be a 'failure'. They are NOT OUT to kill at random, and they MUST be held accountable just like anyone else.

It's when they are NOT held accountable that things go to hell in a handbasket. The investigation will answer questions, and if there is any 'accountability' to be done, it will be.

Subject: RE: BS: The Moat has shot himself (UK fugitive)
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 05:22 PM

PS--there are good cops and bad cops, just like everything else in this world. Please try not to tar them all with the same tar brush.

Subject: RE: BS: The Moat has shot himself (UK fugitive)
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 06:45 PM

Dead on, Sorcha.

I was a cop once, in the Army, and I was even brought up on charges of police brutality. Yes, there was an investigation and even the drunk we had to fight to arrest agreed that we used no more force than necessary -- in fact, he was surprised we didn't use nightsticks. But I also knew a fellow cop who carried 50 round rounds of ammo (we were issued 5) because he really, really wanted to get in a shootout before he got out of the Army and another who got in "stick time" on a speeder (he was found to be mentally disturbed and should never have been assigned to the MPs).

Accountability, yes, without a doubt. But if you think the job is straightforward good vs. bad, try it sometime. Walk a mile in a cop's shoes: is this car you're stopping going to be the one with nut with gun in it? is this thug you're trying to handcuff the one with the hidden knife? will you see your family again?

My sympathies are with the victims, not the shooter.

Subject: RE: BS: The Moat has shot himself (UK fugitive)
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 06:59 PM

Thank you Rap.

Is THIS the car that has a secret trigger shotgun hidden in the door?
Is THIS the driver that is psychotic?
Is THIS the domestic where I get shot?
Is THIS the drunk that is on PCP and wants to put a pool cue thru my throat?


Over and over and over all day every day.

Subject: RE: BS: The Moat has shot himself (UK fugitive)
From: Emma B
Date: 11 Jul 10 - 07:31 PM

"My sympathies are with the victims"

I don't think anyone is going to disagree with that - even those who may feel compassion for the perpetrator (a very emotionally and mentally disturbed individual) AND also with the (accountable) public servants who had to deal with a difficult situation.

I would however really like to see the press and other media also held to 'accountability' in this instance.

The media reaction, that can only be described as a 'feeding frenzy' may be 'explained' to some extent as such episodes are thankfully still very rare in Britain due, at least to some degree, to severe legal restrictions on the availability of firearms.

But this went much further

I share the views of at least one blogger who observed

"Raoul Moat, a troubled and violent man, had to be apprehended. His willingness to kill and maim presented a real danger to the police and the public.....
Sufficient to know that he was dangerous and should not be approached.
Instead, the man who was the subject of the hunt was turned into the monstrous 'other' who makes our flesh creep, and through that de-humanisation, serves to reassure us of our own 'normality'.

Raoul Moat's dysfunction was turned into an 'infotainment' spectacle; his sickness met something ill-considered and undiscerning in our society and the outcome was demeaning to us all."

Subject: RE: BS: The Moat has shot himself (UK fugitive)
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 01:14 AM

Yes, Emma, I think we've lost the ability to differentiate between reality and reality television. We're becoming like the Romans, inured to violence because it's shown so frequently on television and the media that it no longer shocks and appalls us. Worse, it feeds on itself and will push the sick or desperate over the edge and then more people die. We are becoming a society with neither a conscience nor a sense of honor to hold back the Beast Within.

Subject: RE: BS: The Moat has shot himself (UK fugitive)
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 06:16 AM

I agree Sorcha, there are good and bad polcemen /women

Subject: RE: BS: The Moat has shot himself (UK fugitive)
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 07:10 AM

"It may turn out that the tazer shock caused a contraction of his finger that pulled on the trigger" While still enabling him to lift the gun and hold it in place?

I read that preliminary reports failed to find any marks of a tazer hit on his body.

Subject: RE: BS: The Moat has shot himself (UK fugitive)
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 07:20 AM

I'm sure that the police officers followed procedure responsibly and to the letter - even more so in a situation which became one of such high profile.

The mob will always crucify the police - egged on as usual by the gutter press and in this instance by the media as a whole.

Subject: RE: BS: The Moat has shot himself (UK fugitive)
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 09:07 AM

In 18 years of law enforcement I had one physical punch up and I consider that a failure even though I won.
At least, I never had to shoot anyone, but there was one incident when this creep was threatening my partner who was not armed. That's the only time I ever drew my weapon. Lucky for all of us he had slightly more brains than I first thought.
I can't imagine anything worse than having to shoot someone.

Subject: RE: BS: The Moat has shot himself (UK fugitive)
From: goatfell
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 02:20 PM

there is good and bad in everyone

Subject: RE: BS: The Moat has shot himself (UK fugitive)
From: mauvepink
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 02:31 PM

Manitas: according to most reports, a published picture and video shown on the BBC news, he was holding the shotgun to his own head already. I was merely commenting of various scenarios. He could just have likely sneezed and pulled the trigger! The fact is we do not know the facts.

Tonight's news concentrated on the Police search to try and find another weapon that may be hidden somewhere close by and whether the Police has reacted quick enough about Mt Moat's intentions on leaving prison. The picture that has been shown on a great many news sites of someone holding a tazer I see was actually blanking out the man's face this evening. I am sure this sad story will continue for some while.

Whatever the outcome of any subsequent enquiry I am sure that the Police and authorities did their absolute best to bring this to a best outcome they could for all involved once it all started off. That they are accountable is right and proper. Mistakes may have happened but in the pressured environment that such situations bring about. 20:20 hindsight is a wonderful thing to have, but you only ever get it after events have taken place.

My hopes would be that the IPCC deliver an honest and open report but that, unless some deliberate reckless act took place by someone involved, no witch-hunts are carried out. I can but imagine what it must be like to be involved in such a search and enquiry. It cannot be nice for anyone involved.

We all are able to sleep safer in our beds at night though because people in our Police are willing to put themselves in harms way to try and provide a barrier between us being harmed and those that may likely cause it.

Cases like this highlight so many aspects of one facet of society

mp

Subject: RE: BS: The Moat has shot himself (UK fugitive)
From: Rapparee
Date: 12 Jul 10 - 11:07 PM

And that no one country has a monopoly on the mentally unstable. China had three or four killing sprees with axes earlier this year, for example.