BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?

Subject: BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?
From: Amos
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 09:47 AM

MEandering through the UK on-line papers, as I occasionally do, I was intrigued by a spirited argument by Independent columnist Yasmin Aliphai-Brown, who argues for the end of royalism.

"The practice is wrong, the principle is wrong; it locks British people and institutions into dependency and voluntary subservience. The profligate, right-wing Queen Mother, the allegedly alcoholic and promiscuous Princess Margaret, the ghastly Prince Philip, the brace of kept princes, arrogant Princess Anne and the rest of the gang would not get a job on the buses with their skills and personalities. Their birthright props them up Ð only that. They exist so that we may cringe and defer, and vicariously delight in their unearned privilege. The great socialist journalist Mervyn Jones, who died this February, was absolutely right when he wrote: "No one who believes either in the claims of merit or the pursuit of equality can defend the system." The unshakeable pyramid would crack and fall unless the lower classes stay fixed and rapt and infantilised. Are we human or are we vassals?

Republicans always get panicked Britons asking incredulously if we really do think a president would be better than the Queen. She has taken the nation through the Empire and its aftermath and should carry on until the end. But after that, this obsolete institution must give way to democracy and modernity. Give the royals reasonable incomes and let them go. Let us elect our figureheads Ð David Attenborough, Camilla Batmanghelidjh, Joanna Lumley, even David Starkey would be better than this lot. And if they failed to impress, we could vote them out.

Incredibly, until 2003, when the Law Lords ruled otherwise, it was unlawful to argue publicly for a republic. It isn't easy even now. Today's more deranged monarchists would perhaps like republicans flogged for their views in Trafalgar Square, with the Queen's Household Cavalry standing to attention and a drummer (a bright idea to send to the listening coalition Government?) You'd think we were a greater menace to society than avaricious bankers and unrepressed "paedos". Next week the Republican movement holds its summer party. Thousands will not turn up Ð if only they did. But the cause is just and essential, and change will surely come. Not in my lifetime though Ð that much I know."

Full article here in the INdependent.

Is the republican sentiment growing in Olde Englande? After all these centuries of real and figure-head monarchs? Should Windsor be the last Royal House?

What are the sentiments of those who reside there?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?
From: Midchuck
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 09:58 AM

Speaking as one who doesn't reside there, I think it's a good idea.

You have a purely ceremonial Head of State who can handle all the ritual crap, so the working head of state can concentrate on business.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?
From: Amos
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 10:09 AM

Which they obviously do so very well...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 10:27 AM

As a Canadian I share the Monarchy with you folks in the UK. It is my feeling that The Queen is highly respected here but the Monarchy should perhaps end with her passing, at least as head of state in Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 10:39 AM

Yasmin Alibhai Brown is a bit of a rabble rouser, and has a tendency to 'flame' I don't think she's malicious, she just enjoys the attention it gets her.
No the monarchy is not obsolete in the UK. It is better to have someone above politics as head of state.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?
From: GUEST,erbert
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 10:55 AM

..of course the monarchy is obsolete,
as are the traditionalist conservative attitudes, rationalisations,
and justifications
of those who benefit by association with it.
However, the wealth and power that supports the continued existence
of this archaic elite hollow edifice
is far from obsolete..

Subject: RE: BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?
From: Stu
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 10:55 AM

"What are the sentiments of those who reside there?"

Well, for a start he's taking about Britons and not just the English - this is rather important. I'd rather hope that republican sentiment might be growing here in the UK, but unfortunately the vast majority of the population seems to enjoy being ruled by a load of inbreds and spongers who know sod all about the people they 'rule'. In fact, I find it interesting that people wanting to live in the UK have to swear an oath of allegiance to the Queen. Bollocks to that - I wouldn't give the old girl the steam off me piss (not personal to her, but to any king or queen). I certainly would pledge my allegiance, but never because someone tells me I have to, and never to people born into wealth and privilege earnt off the backs or ordinary people.


"Give the royals reasonable incomes and let them go."

Why? They're already massively rich and they should be able to subsist on their own. One thing they don't need is any more of our money. Just let them grow and grow up.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?
From: GUEST,Lox
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 11:08 AM

So let me get this straight.

The evidence that Yasmin Alibhai Brown is a rabble rousing flamer is to be found in an article entitled:


"Is Yasmin Alibhai-Brown the stupidest woman in Britain?"


Yes indeed - whereas an article written under that headline is clearly a measured and balanced one with no attempt to exaggerate issues or assassinate anyones character.


Compared with the article you have provided John, Yasmin Browns article is as dry and unimpassioned as a nuns drawers.

I think you need to find better evidence than that before you discredit her article.

But before that, you might need to show that you are able to engage in intelligent conversation by actually responding to some of her points.

I suspect that you see any republican viewpoint as being inflammatory.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 12:59 PM

Who the F*** is Yasmin Alibhai-Brown and what the f*** has it got to do with her or him.

This is a thread intended to bring the very worst out of mudcatters as usual.

The question from Amos is What are the sentiments of those who reside there?

My sentiment Amos, is, mind your own ******* business.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?
From: michaelr
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 01:21 PM

Way to encourage a reasonable discourse, Arthur.

The concept of monarchy is IMO indeed obsolete, not only in Britain but everywhere. It's a relic from the Middle (or even the Dark) Ages and should be scuttled ASAP.

Plus the fact that Britain has been "ruled" now by several generations of wee German lairdies - does that not bother the English?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 01:26 PM

We are NOT ruled by the queen, when will you republican warriors get that into your heads. She's a constitutional monarch!
Don't bother telling us what she costs the nation, an elected president wouldn't be any cheaper.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 01:40 PM

Haven't there been steam-dozen threads on this topic already?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?
From: gnu
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 01:45 PM

Yes, Q. Consider this the next round. Protect yourself at all times and have a good clean fight. DING!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 01:46 PM

I recall the Bruce & Sheila country debating this recently and deciding to keep her.

Why?

Because the alternative is somebody who WANTS the job.

I like that way of thinking. She is a constitutional Monarch and her only power is ensuring governments don't wander from democracy. Mind you, if they did, I doubt she could really stop them.

So we are left with the pomp and pageantry. Sells UK PLC , so let's keep it. Old ladies from here in The UK, together with many foreign tourists love it and lap it up. Long may it continue.

I am not a Royalist. I think the media turn them into a convenient soap opera and they don't really know how to handle that. the younger ones are leaving the cocoon and seeing a bit more of life than their older relations and that hopefully makes them better at their eventual job.

I liked it when Prince Charles decided that when (if?) he gets to wear the crown, he will be the defender of faith rather than defender of the faith. Again, shows a slow but real evolution, keeping them about as relevant as they can get, which is not too far but like I said, they serve a purpose, and governing us isn't one of them.

So, is it obsolete? No. Especially compared to the alternatives. We already have the pathetic show of prospective Prime Ministers being treated as Presidential elections, mainly because the British media think we need to be more like Americans. The difference is the Americans DO vote for a President. We vote for a party and that party internally chooses a Prime Minister. (Or two, judging by the recent fudge.)

To say the system promotes old style values is rubbish. Just because we have a Monarch doesn't mean I feel I am in servitude to her. Doesn't mean we have a yearning to claim back an Empire and rape it of it's wealth.   

No, it just means we have a head of state system that is preferable to the alternative. and brings a few bob in in the meantime to offset the cost.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?
From: GUEST,Doc John
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 02:08 PM

Of course an elected president would be cheaper: we wouldn't have to keep his, or her, mother, father, brothers, sisters, children, grandchildren...etc as well. And we wouldn't have to pay for all the ridiculous ceremonies - stating with a coronation - which are supposed to be so traditional and ancient but probably for the most part date back around a century; all contrived to make the monarch seem ever so majestic. And waste money training the males for a military career which they will never really enter.
I'm not quite sure what a constitutional monarch actually is...does it mean that her son can interfer with democratic planning processes? And pass oppinions on agriculture, alternative medicine and architecture - in which he has no training - which are taken seriously only because he is who he is?
The problem is we cut off the king's head about 100 years too soon and then didn't know quite what to do; most people - with a few exceptions - couldn't get their heads around the idea of a republic. We nearly got King Oliver and then we still had the ridiculous hereditary process which gave us Tumbled Down Dick. If only we'd had Protector Lambert. The French got their timing right.
Yes David Attenborough, Joanna Lumley, Richard Dawkins, Helena Kennedy, Lisa Jardine, Frank Bruno, A C Grayling, Claire Rayner would all make good candidates...and Martin Carthy.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?
From: Dead Horse
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 03:00 PM

I suggest you all look up the true meaning of "Tradition".
It counts for a hell of a lot - not least when your backs are to the wall.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?
From: GUEST,Doc John
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 03:16 PM

Let's knock this Fid Def nonsense on the head right way. It was a title granted by the Pope - a foreign power - to Henry VIII for writing a book against Martin Luther so defending the Roman Catholic faith. Monarchs have kept it on their lists of titles ever since because it looks good and they love their titles. So the Queen, the head of the Church of England who still hasn't ordained a woman bishop, is the Fid Def of the Roman Catholic church, who think woman are second class anyway. All typical of the nonsense we have to tolerate.
Then their the Order of the British Empire...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?
From: Bainbo
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 03:36 PM

Ah. Took just 14 posts before we got to the old favourite "It's good for tourism" post.

Always makes me smile, that one. That's really the best argument you can come up with - and it always comes up - for the way our whole system of government, our constitution, the very fabric of our nation, is organised? That it attracts tourists?

If that's really the only reason we have for keeping the monarchy, then just knock down Buck House and build a theme park. It would be just as effective and a damn sight more cost-efficient.

Mind, Midchuck's argument about having a head of state who's above all the day-to-day nitty-gritty of politics is interesting. I'll have to think about that one. You couldn't imagine Obama, for instance, getting involved in the weekly mud-slinging and flak-dodging of Prime Minister's Question Time.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 03:48 PM

>>You couldn't imagine Obama, for instance, getting involved in the weekly mud-slinging and flak-dodging of Prime Minister's Question Time.<<

That's becuase he isn't able to handle it. Obama wouldn't last 5 minutes over here.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 03:50 PM

Just come up with an alternative, and I'll listen to your argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?
From: Bainbo
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 04:00 PM

Well, let's see. The republican alternative would probably have to be ... oh, yes - a republic. I haven't noticed Irish people, say, or the French, having many problems with a head of state who, if they like, they can keep, and if they don't like, they can vote out.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?
From: Bainbo
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 04:08 PM

And you've got a better argument than: "It brings in tourism"? You're happy to live in a country run as a glorified Disneyland?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?
From: gnu
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 04:18 PM

Ya know, Beth's got friends and relatives all over the globe. She and her lineage, among others, were the very first networkers. I'll bet she gets shit done on a daily basis faster and cleaner than any politician.

Oh, yeah, politicians... where's the next thread on those toady bastards? Or do we have enough of them already? They come and go like bad weather. Bee has been the queen of the hive(s) for a tad longer.

Long live the Queen.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?
From: Amos
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 04:40 PM

Arhtur:

I had no ida the subject would make anyone as bad-tempered as it seems to make you.
I thought the argument from the Independent had some merit, but it is clear she is overlooking a lot of dynamics -- sentimental and social -- that are less obvious. John's argument is interesting--if we had a Canus Ultimus who was not subject to the vagaries of politics, but who had only limited powers to influence rather than to decree, it would probably serve as a good flywheel against the brainless oscillations of our system, especially when it is as polarized a it has been since the advent of the Second Bush. It also serves as a damper on public perspectives if they get too wound up; despite turmoil in the streets, when the Queen speaks, most people listen. So perhaps it is a valuable adjunct to an otherwise republican form of government, if an expensive one.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 04:47 PM

Amos
They are not obsolete and some of them work very hard for the benifit of Britain.
I am not a royalist, but when somebody outside out country starts a thread like this, then I get annoyed.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 05:22 PM

The Royal Family are indeed becoming obsolete. It will take two or three generations yet though - anyone under fifty is likely to have little interest in them.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 05:27 PM

I aught to add that what support they do have, remains among the wildlife torturing toffs and the market loving least educated classes.

In other words those for whom the classic (gawd luv ya mrs V's oh what a quaint peasant!) class dichotomy still makes sense..

Subject: RE: BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 05:29 PM

They are so obsolete that Queen carried out 355 engagements during 2009 - are you all mad????? Prince Charles gave up his afternoon today to attend the Cartier International Polo Day in Windsor Great park - so did 25,000+ others. You missed a wonderful day!!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 05:33 PM

So what would you replace them with?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 05:35 PM

What a load of bollocks Crow Sister

Subject: RE: BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?
From: Bainbo
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 05:37 PM

<>

I refer the honourable gentleman to my previous answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 05:45 PM

"What a load of bollocks Crow Sister"

Heh! What do yo claim to have a greater pulse on the attitood of the yooth of today than me? I'll have you know I've never yet been to Bingo!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 05:47 PM

>>You're happy to live in a country run as a glorified Disneyland<<

My answer to that Bainbo would get me banned from Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?
From: Cats
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 05:50 PM

I'm not a royalist but at least the Queen stopped us having President Thatcher or President Cameron!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 05:53 PM

I agree with you cats!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 05:55 PM

The old aristocrats and their fluffers don't hold their tempers easy.

Its been tough for them to watch the empire fall.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 06:11 PM

WTF are you on about GUEST LOX

Subject: RE: BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?
From: Smokey.
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 06:39 PM

The Civil List costs the British economy/treasury/taxpayer about £8m a year, the majority of which is paid out in wages, and in return the Crown Estate contributes all its profit which is about £190m per year and employs hundreds of people. The Royal family and all their employees also pay income tax. That is a massive contribution to the economy of this country.

Thanks to thirty or more years of political incompetence we have virtually no manufacturing industry left to create new wealth and the majority of the population is hugely in debt, owing money that can ultimately only be found by printing more and effectively devaluing everyone else's. A frightening number of those are employed in artificially created 'jobs' which simply use up resources and produce nothing.

In the current economic climate it would be insane to scrap the Royal family, they are far from obsolete.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 06:45 PM

My first reaction to this thread was "Who the blue blind blazes is Camilla Batmanghelidjh?"

a bit of Googling gave me this answer

And my second reaction (to "even David Starkey would be better than this lot") was

AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?
From: GUEST,john
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 06:47 PM

Get rid of the lot of them, although we're probably stuck with Betty, 'til she pops her clogs.

At least there's hope that Charles will carry on being an interfering, opinionated intellectual butterfly if/when he takes over, and that should help knock the whole sorry charade on the head.

What we need most, in anticipation of the glorious day when all of the Saxe-Coburg-Windsors can shuffle off into well-deserved obscurity, is a change of national anthem.

Our present pathetic dirge is long overdue for the dustbin. Anyone for 'Land of Hope and Glory'? Or what about 'I Vow To Thee My Country'? Let's face it. What we've got now is abysmal, embarrassing crap.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?
From: GUEST,Lox
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 06:49 PM

I remember living in Hong Kong when it was British.

The governor had a chicken on his head and drove a Jaguar.

Now Hong Kong is chinese, Jaguar is German and the chicken has come home to roost.

The Royals are on the way out, and it won't be because of any revolution, it will be because the throne will inevitably be handed on to Charles and then William and they will reform the current system.

Liz is the last relic of a bygone era, and her grandson, the new slimline modern prince, presiding over his modern slimline empire, appears to be his mothers son with his fathers support.

The whole thing really is very silly.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?
From: Smokey.
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 07:45 PM

Both 'Land of Hope and Glory'? and 'I Vow To Thee My Country' are grotesque misuses of otherwise beautiful music which their composers didn't deserve.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?
From: Amos
Date: 25 Jul 10 - 10:09 PM

Arthur,

Whether it suits you or does not, I am an alive human sharing the earth, and have as much right to start a thread about English affairs as you have about American ones.   I have no dog in the fight but I think it is an interesting question which obviously has viewpoints of merit on both sides. So sorry I trod you toesies, though.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 02:37 AM

OK Amos. Just made my point and will step out of it now as I don't want to get dragged into a flaming war, which I suspect will happen at some point :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 03:40 AM

WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO REPLACE THEM WITH ????????

Subject: RE: BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 04:19 AM

The Royals are integral to the general spectacle which further reinforces the Cult o' Celebrity which none of us are entuirely immune to. WAV was asking me the other day when people started laying down floral tributes in commemoration of those killed in RTAs; no earlier than the untimely passing of Princess Diana whereupon the entire country became a floral tribute. In terms of spontaneous folkloric experience that has to take some beating.

We tried a republic a wee while back anyway; it didn't work then & I doubt it would work now.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?
From: GUEST,Doc John
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 04:20 AM

Well Caligula (reputably) made his horse consul, so there's an idea for a start.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 04:41 AM

Yasmin Aliphai-Brown is just full of her own opinions and has attracted a lot of criticism as a result.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?
From: Stu
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 04:54 AM

"We tried a republic a wee while back anyway; it didn't work then & I doubt it would work now."

It didn't work because the wrong man was in. Now, if John Lilburne had been made Lord Protector . . .


"WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO REPLACE THEM WITH ????????"

AN.ELECTED.PRESIDENT.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Monarchy Obsolete in the UK?
From: GUEST,erbert
Date: 26 Jul 10 - 05:20 AM

"WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO REPLACE THEM WITH ????????"


well..   errrrr...   "NOTHING !!!!!!!"


or.. errrrrrm...    "A CHIMPS TEA PARTY !!!!!!!"


..or to take such a shouty shrill question and accord it a modicum of polite respect...


hows about.. some kind of elected academy of pre-eminent representative citizens
from all areas of British Work & Social life ?????

details of which can be thrashed out by pub bores
until some semblance of a sensible structure and process of nomination & election
positively emerges..

YES THERE ARE CONSTRUCTIVE & BENEFICIAL ALTERNATIVES !!!!!!!!



of course there are..

are we not intelligent and rational citizens ??????