Origins: Brigg Fair

Subject: Brigg Fair
From: GUEST,GloriaJ
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 12:30 PM

Since today is the 5th of august I took it as a good excuse to post this song on youtube - recorded it last night,just live,straight to mike, so it's not perfect.A great classic - and I still think Joseph Taylor's version has never been bettered.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZG9eTjrtlQ

Subject: RE: Brigg Fair
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 01:07 PM

excellent.

Subject: RE: Brigg Fair
From: Seayaker
Date: 05 Aug 10 - 06:32 PM

Great! The Frederick Delius adaptation of this is also well worth a listen.

Subject: RE: Brigg Fair
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 06 Aug 10 - 05:58 PM

Well done - I'm sure my Gran would have liked this. She was living in Brigg when Percy Grainger recorded Joseph Taylor.

Subject: RE: Brigg Fair
From: michaelr
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 07:13 PM

I happened to hear the Frederick Delius piece "Brigg Fair: An English Rhapsofy" on NPR today. Very nice music, but I could not find the tune in it.

Subject: RE: Brigg Fair
From: GUEST,GloriaJ
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 07:23 PM

I know what you mean! i do like Vaughan Williams,Butterworth,and Holst in their folksong arrangements, but I find the Delius a bit overwrought for me.he does have the tune in there, but the harmonic structure is quite wayward and adventurous.

Subject: RE: Brigg Fair
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Aug 21 - 06:32 PM

There's a nice bit of work done on this song at https://mainlynorfolk.info/joseph.taylor/songs/briggfair.html

Here are the lyrics we have in the Digital Tradition:

BRIGG FAIR

It was on the fifth of August
The weather fair and mild
Unto Brigg Fair I did repair
For a love I was inclined

I got up with the lark in the morning
And my heart was full of glee
Expecting there to meet my dear
Long time I'd wished to see

I looked over my left shoulder
To see what I might see
And there I spied my own true love
Come a-tripping down to me

I took hold of her lily-white hand
And merrily sang my heart
For now we are together
We never more shall part

For the green leaves, they will wither
And the roots, they shall decay
Before that I prove false to her
The lass that loves me well

Recorded on wax cylinder in Lincolnshire in
1905 by Percy Grainger Sung by Ian Robb &
'Finest Kind' on "Heart's Delight" and by
Martin Carthy on "Byker Hill"


filename[ BRIGFAIR
TUNE FILE: BRIGFAIR
CLICK TO PLAY
oct99

Popup Midi Player

Music notation (click)

Here's the entry from the Traditional Ballad Index:

Brigg Fair

DESCRIPTION: Singer goes to Brigg Fair expecting to meet his sweetheart; she arrives and he takes her hand, rejoicing, and hopes they will never part.
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1908 (recording, Joseph Taylor); 1905 (collected from Taylor by Grainger, according to OShaughnessy-Yellowbelly1, p. 67)
KEYWORDS: love courting reunion lover
FOUND IN: Britain(England(Lond,South))
REFERENCES (3 citations):
OShaughnessy/Grainger-TwentyOneLincolnshireFolkSongs 3, "Brigg Fair" (1 text, 1 tune)
OShaughnessy-YellowbellyBalladsPart1 8, "Brigg Fair" (1 text, 1 tune)
ADDITIONAL: Journal of the Folk-Lore Society, Vol. II, No. 7 (1905 (available online by JSTOR)), #2 p. 80, "Brigg Fair" (1 fragment, 1 tune)
Roud #1083
RECORDINGS:
Isla Cameron, "Brigg Fair" (on Lomax41, LomaxCD1741)
Joseph Taylor, "Brigg Fair" (cylinder, on HiddenE)
NOTES [9 words]: About as basic a story as can be, but still complete. - PJS
Last updated in version 3.0
File: RcBF

---

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Subject: RE: Brigg Fair
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 09 Aug 21 - 06:47 PM


Brigg Fair sung by Joseph Taylor
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdmgUM4LbS4

Subject: RE: Brigg Fair
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 09 Aug 21 - 07:01 PM

It's interesting to note that the tune is the B part of Dives and Lazarus, or the Chorus of Star of the County Down if you prefer. Just goes to underline the art of the traditional singer that he or she can reinvent a tune to suit an entirely different song and mood.

Subject: RE: Brigg Fair
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Aug 21 - 03:29 AM

Personally,I find analysing musical structure useful for working out acompaniments, however on an emotional level it can sometimes spoil my enjoyment,
for me dives and lazarus is a song that i associate with the rev ken loveless.and unfortunately you have unintentionally now spoiled my enjoyment of Brigg Fair, as I had not made that musical association, between dives and lazarus and brigg fair.

Subject: RE: Brigg Fair
From: Acorn4
Date: 10 Aug 21 - 04:05 AM

That's a very good version.

I always remember the late Brian Dawson singing this.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair
From: GUEST,JHW
Date: 10 Aug 21 - 05:27 AM

Good thread this. Must be with Rev Ken Lovelace AND Brian Dawson getting a mention.
Ken had a concertina with three sets of bellows. Maybe to match the treble pink gins.
5th gone now but I've got Joseph Taylor and Isla St.Clair/Cameron on LP must check.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair
From: GUEST,JHW
Date: 10 Aug 21 - 05:57 AM

Only two verses by Joseph Taylor transcribed but LP is called Unto Brigg Fair.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 10 Aug 21 - 07:13 PM

John Taylor his son had one extra (floating) verse. Recorded by Peter Kennedy I think. You'll find the recording included in McColl's song carrier programmes.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Aug 21 - 04:07 AM

i have listened carefully to Taylors version of Brigg Fair, i do not agree, i do not hear dives and lazarus in his version
Sorry no offence intended, but i think they are not the same at all

Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 11 Aug 21 - 09:01 AM

Bert Lloyd Folk Song in England Page 76.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair
From: Brian Peters
Date: 11 Aug 21 - 10:29 AM

To me the tune is clearly related to the second part of 'Dives' / 'County Down', in a similar way to 'Maria Martin'. It's made more interesting by several added sequences of notes, especially that climb to the 7th in bar 5, which is what really makes it special. The sharp 6th in bar 2 is tasty as well, though I believe that Taylor sang it ambiguously on at least some of the various recordings. Delius renders it as a sharp.

John Taylor his son had one extra (floating) verse. Recorded by Peter Kennedy I think.

I've not been able to find that in the Kennedy collection at the BL, but Grainger did note another version from Mr Deene, to the same tune and including the same two stanzas (with a few detail differences, e.g. 'fine and fair' for 'hot and fair'). No recording in the BL.

In his field notes Grainger states that 'Mr Taylor believed that the words went on to tell of the couple walking along the Wrawby Road'.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 11 Aug 21 - 11:00 AM

Hi Brian, I'll send you the John Taylor version. I may have been wrong about Kennedy, that was from memory.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair
From: Reinhard
Date: 11 Aug 21 - 11:22 AM

According to Ruairidh Greig in a comment to Andy Turner's Brigg Fair A Folk Songs a Week blog, the Folktrax cassette 45-135 (Brigg Fair- Joseph Taylor) has a recording of John Taylor, so we can assume that it was made by Peter Kennedy, and possibly is the 1944 BBC recording that Andy Turner mentioned.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 11 Aug 21 - 12:51 PM

Are Grainger's Field notes on The Full English? I've sent you the file Brian.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair
From: Brian Peters
Date: 11 Aug 21 - 01:24 PM

Thanks Nick, received in good order. How curious - five verses in all, but none about walking to Wrawby! Since most (all?) of them are floating verses, I'm wondering whether John added them himself, to make a song better suited to performance. He's not a bad singer, though he slows down noticeably to fit in the ornament at the end of the verse.

Yes, the detail about Joseph's 3rd verse is at the VWML. It seems to be pretty much unique to J & J Taylor, and Mr Deene.

Brigg Fair at the VWML

Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair
From: GUEST,#
Date: 11 Aug 21 - 01:47 PM

Sorry if this duplicates a post.

https://books.google.ca/books?id=HK93DwAAQBAJ&pg=PA215&lpg=PA215&dq=in+what+year+was+brigg+fair+on+the+5th+of+august?&source=bl&

See p.215.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair
From: Brian Peters
Date: 11 Aug 21 - 02:09 PM

Thanks, #. So it was Grainger himself who added those extra verses.

The link I made above doesn't seem to open the full search data. Putting 1083 in the Roud No. box will get you there, though.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 11 Aug 21 - 03:02 PM

The extra verse is sung by John Taylor. Was it got from Dad or Grainger? If it was Grainger that opens up a tin of worms on the subject of what the collector leaves behind him (or her). That controversial word 'Kennedy' keeps rearing it's head.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Aug 21 - 04:05 PM

in my opinion , dives and lazarus has much more in common with one of the tunes used for van diemans land. of course mathematically lots of tunes are related. but if i was to be asked for the closest relation tunewise to Dives it would be van diemans land.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Aug 21 - 04:21 PM

However, i do think what you have to say about Kennedy and joseph Taylors version is intersting, fascinating even, the other versions that MOST OF US KNOW have come across have more verses than joseph taylors two or three

Subject: ADD Version/Origins: Brigg Fair
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Aug 21 - 06:07 PM

Thanks to the link from #, I was able to find and copy the applicable text from The Classical Music Lover's Companion to Orchestral Music, by Robert Philip (Yale University Press, 2018 - pp 214 ff.)

BRIGG FAIR: AN ENGLISH RHAPSODY (Frederick Delius (1862-1934)

In 1905, at the North Lincolnshire Music Competition held in the market town of Brigg, Joseph Taylor, aged seventy-one, won the newly established folk song section with his performance of ‘Creeping Jane’. The singing of traditional songs was in decline, and the Folk-Song Society had been founded in 1898 to collect them before they vanished. One of the Society’s leading members was the composer Percy Grainger. He had encouraged the inclusion of folk songs in the Brigg competition, and was there to note them down.
After the competition, Taylor came to him and sang him ‘Brigg Fair’, which he had known since he was a child, and three years later Grainger recorded Taylor singing it, on a wax cylinder. Struck by the beauty of the song, Grainger arranged it for tenor solo with chorus, adding extra verses, and this version was performed at the Brigg competition in 1906. The following year, Delius was deeply impressed by Grainger’s arrangement of ‘Brigg Fair’ and asked permission to use the tune as the basis of an orchestral work of his own.
The result was this ‘English Rhapsody’, which Delius dedicated to Grainger.
Joseph Taylor travelled to London to attend the first London performance in 1908 and stayed with Grainger and his mother, ‘delighting us with his personality, which was every bit as sweet and charmful as his singing’, as Grainger remembered. At the performance, ‘When the “Brigg Fair” tune was given out at intervals by the English horn and other instruments of the orchestra, old Taylor gently “joined in” with his sweetly ringing tenor voice, to the amazement of the audience.’4
Delius’s score, published in Germany in 1910, includes six stanzas:

BRIGG FAIR

It was on the fifth of August
The weather hot and fair
Unto Brigg Fair I did repair
For love I was inclined.

I got up with the lark in the morning
With my heart so full of glee,
Of thinking there to meet my dear
Long time I wished to see.

I looked over my left shoulder
To see whom I could see
And there I spied my own true love
Come tripping down to me.

I took hold of her lily white hand
And merrily was her heart,
And now we’re met together
I hope we ne’er shall part.

For it’s meeting is a pleasure
And parting is a grief,
But an unconstant lover
Is worse than any thief.

The green leaves they shall wither
And the branches they shall die
If ever I prove false to her,
To the girl that loves me.

Delius may or may not have known that only the first two stanzas were from the original song sung by Taylor. The rest had been assembled by Grainger from other traditional songs in order to make a more complete narrative.
Grainger, in a programme note for Delius’s rhapsody, encapsulated the appeal to both composers of the melody and its (elaborated) text: ‘a late-summer dream of morning freshness, love, peacefulness, quiet rural jollity, lazy church bells and the glowing English country-side’.5 The words of the song are happy, and Joseph Taylor in his 1908 recording sings the opening verses with a dancing lilt. To musicians reared on major and minor scales, however, the melody has an ambiguity of mood, as so many songs in the old modes seem to (‘Brigg Fair’ is in the Dorian mode). It is this that both Grainger and Delius exploit to create music full of nostalgia and a sense of impermanence – the ‘evanescence of beautiful things’, as Philip Heseltine put it.
Delius’s work is scored for large orchestra, including fourteen woodwind and six horns. These are used to provide a wide range of delicate effects, only occasionally coming together for grand climaxes. Most of the piece consists of a set of variations on the melody of ‘Brigg Fair’, interspersed with contemplative passages. The opening sets a pastoral scene: a solo flute plays arabesques, accompanied by the lightest of harp arpeggios and ppp string chords. It inevitably calls to mind the opening of Debussy’s Prélude à l’après-midi d’un faune, but the sensuousness of Delius’s flute is less erotic, more rustic. As it continues it becomes more bird-like, and is joined by another flute and a clarinet as if from neighbouring trees. This gives way to the melody of ‘Brigg Fair’ on oboe, accompanied by clarinets and bassoons, followed by a set of variations on the theme. The flute takes it up, accompanied by strings, and the harmonies become more complex (they have had a nostalgic depth even from the opening bars). Then it moves to the strings in chorus, joined the next time round by flutes and clarinets. Now the melody begins to dance, with a tripping counterpoint in the violins. The counterpoint moves to flute and clarinet while horns take up the tune, and then a trumpet takes the melody to the first climax of the piece. The mood calms, and the opening flute arabesque returns for a moment.
This is the beginning of an interlude. Over quiet, sustained chords, the violins sing a rising phrase, as if stretching out the opening of ‘Brigg Fair’. This little motif is repeated and developed. It passes to cor anglais, and then to a horn, all the while cushioned by the slowly shifting harmonies below. The effect is like a sustained meditation on a fine summer’s day. From the calm emerges another variation of ‘Brigg Fair’ on clarinet, with its rhythm evened out and with counterpoint on cor anglais, bass clarinet, bassoon, and horns.
The effect is mellow and even ecclesiastical – a bell sounds at the end of the tune. The strings join for the next variation, and the bell sounds again. The tune changes back to its original rhythm, but now in a broader three-time, and with a new counterpoint in the violins. This rises to a climax and falls away. The tune changes again, losing its swing, and becoming a solemn procession on trumpet and trombone, punctuated by string chords and the sounding of the bell (‘slow: with solemnity’). The processional melody moves to the violins. Then there is another brief interlude, as reminders of the opening flute solo are interspersed with fragments of the tune. The woodwind return to the dancing lilt of ‘Brigg Fair’ (‘gaily’). The cellos sing it, and the whole orchestra joins in. After a moment of hesitation, the music gathers energy, accelerates, and rises to a great climax at which the bells sound, and the tune is transformed into a blazing brass chorale. Gradually the climax falls away, an oboe gently plays the tune for the last time, and with a final reminder of the opening flute arabesques, the piece comes to a quiet close.

Delius: Brigg Fair, 1953 performance by the London Symphony Orchestra
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMh2R4kRcFI

Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair
From: Malcolm Storey
Date: 11 Aug 21 - 07:37 PM

As reported in another thread I have a recording of Brian Dawson giving a presentation on Percy Grainger at Whitby Folk Week in 2005.
It includes Brigg Fair and also Creeping Jane and as noted is Gold Dust.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Aug 21 - 09:26 PM

There are three modes that occur with great regularity in the collected repertoire of melodies of British isles[geographical DEFINITION]. They are Dorian ,mixolydian and ionian, that gives a certain limitation to the variety and a certain amount of repetition musically.
Dives and Lazarus,[imo] is closer musically to star of the county down lowlands of holland and van diemans land than Brigg fair.
A L Lloyd may have stated something over 50 years ago, does that make it Gospel? I rely on my own ears, not Lloyds scholarship. yes most tunes in the repertoire are in 3 modes and fall in to certain musical families and some are used over again,some have bits of phrases that occur in others , some have two bars or four bars that are the same.
this kind of musical analysis can be useful in learning tunes,but in my opinion can remove some of the beauty of the tunes and be reminiscent of the quote by Oscar Wilde
someone who “knows the price of everything and the value of nothing”

Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 12 Aug 21 - 03:43 AM

Is there a record of any other songs collected by Kennedy from John Taylor?

Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Aug 21 - 05:33 AM

his daughter said that john taylor was a beautiful singer.https://sounds.bl.uk/World-and-traditional-music/Peter-Kennedy-Collection/025M-C0604X0080XX-0001V0

Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair
From: GUEST,JHW
Date: 12 Aug 21 - 05:46 AM

Thanks to Joe for all that Delius stuff. Especially the added verses including themes which appear regularly so seem genuine. Dare say someone will know 'original' verses or claim to.
Rare for me to read that much!

Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair
From: Brian Peters
Date: 12 Aug 21 - 06:16 AM

I don't have the Folktrax cassette, but all the notes are online. John Taylor contributes 'Brigg Fair' only, and it's not stated who recorded him in in 1944. According to Andy Turner's blog, this was a BBC recording and, since Andy also states that Joseph's grand-daughter Marion Hudson was recorded singing the same song, by Francis Collinson in 1944, I suspect that Collinson recorded John as well. Oddly, the VWML archive only lists three of Mary Taylor's songs from this album.
Here are the notes - the sources of the three added verses are listed in the last paragraph:

FTX-135 - UNTO BRIGG FAIR

GRAINGER, DELIUS, SHARP &TAYLOR
Percy Grainger recorded a number of traditional singers in Lincolnshire in 1906, of which Joseph was by far the most outstanding, both for his songs and for his singing technique. Here are 12 songs with talk about him by his daughter, Mary, recorded by Peter Kennedy in 1953. Delius used Brigg Fair for "English Rhapsody", and Joseph's son, John, and sister Mary, sing the song and talk about their father and his encounters with Percy Grainger, Frederic Delius and Cecil Sharp. Also included is an extract of Grainger's "Lincolnshire Posy".

1. BRIGG FAIR sung by Mary Taylor (age 82), rec. by Peter Kennedy, Saxby-all- Saints, 27.3.53 - 1'15"

2. Mary talks about her father, the North Lincolnshire Music Competitions, Lady Winifred & Gervase Elwes, Everard Fielding, Percy Grainger, Cecil Sharp, the singer who couldn't be stopped, and gives the names of songs recorded by her father for Percy Grainger in London, 1905/6 - 2'46"

3. BRIGG FAIR 2v sung by Joseph Taylor (75), phonographed in 1906 - 0'30"

4. Mary talks about her father singing at home, in the church choir & her brother John - 0'41"

5. BRIGG FAIR sung by John Taylor rec. Saxby-all-Saints, 1944 - 2'17"

6. Mary talks about family singing, winter evenings, the harmonium, her father playing and singing with the violin, his style "with turns and twiddles" - 2'11"

7. THE SPRIG OF THYME sung by Joseph Taylor (phonographed as above) - 1'32"

8. (BOLD) WILLIAM TAYLOR - 3'38"

9. RUFFORD PARK POACHERS - 1'32"

10. THE GYPSY'S WEDDING DAY - 1'38"

11. More talk by Mary about her father, his occupation, false accounts, birthplace and learning BRIGG FAIR, possibly from gypsies - 1'48"

12. MARIA MARTIN (or "Murder in the Red Barn") sung by Joseph Taylor - 0'42"

13. LORD BATEMAN - 1'56"

14. I WISH MY BABY LITTLE WAS BORN (or DIED FOR LOVE) - 0'57"

15. CREEPING JANE - 3'02"

16. JEALOUSY (WORCESTER CITY or POISON IN A GLASS OF WINE) - 2'38"

17. THE WHITE HARE - 2'32"

18. THE FOUR MARIES - sung by Mary Taylor - 1'04"

19. THE SPRIG OF THYME - sung by Mary Taylor - 1'21"

20. Mary talks about BRIGG FAIR, how Percy Grainger noted song & showed it to Frederic Delius, her father going to London, to the Queen's Hall for the first performance and how her father joined in, humming the tune in Dress Circle - 2'44"

21. RUFFORD PARK POACHERS - Excerpt from Percy Grainger's "Lincolnshire Posy" arranged for Wind Ensemble - 3'35"

22. LORD BATEMAN suing by Mr Thompson - 2'39"

23. GREEN BUSHES sung by Joseph Leaning - 0'54"

24. THE SHEFFIELD APPRENTICE sung by Joseph Leaning - 4'55"

25. HORKSTOW GRANGE sung by George Gouldthorpe - 1'12"

26. THE LANDLORD AND THE TENANT sung by Joseph Taylor - 0'39"

27. BOLD NEVISON sung by Joseph Taylor - 0'59"

28. LORD MELBOURNE sung by George Wray - 1'12"

29. ROBIN HOOD AND THE THREE SQUIRES sung by Dean Robinson - 2'22"

30. T'OWD YOWE WI' ONE HORN sung by Dean Robinson - 1'32"

The recordings of Mary Taylor, Joseph Taylor's daughter, were made by Peter Kennedy at her home at Saxby-all-Saints on the 27th March, 1953. The recordings of Joseph Taylor and the other Lincolnshire singers were taken from gramophone copies of the original wax phonograph cylinders made in 1906. Permission for this was graciously given by Percy Grainger in 1957. Edited by Peter Kennedy and first published on Folktrax Cassettes 1979.
In introducing the phonographic performances, which were issued by The Gramophone Company, 31st. July 1908, as "English Folk-Songs sung by Genuine Peasant Performers", Percy Grainger wrote: "From such records as these, art- singers can acquire the interpretative traditions and characteristics from which folksongs derive so much of their colour and charm, and folksong students, years hence, will be able to study the performances (and dialect pronounciations) of today, which contain in themselves the accumulated inventiveness and richness of past ages.

"Mr. Joseph Taylor is in most respects the most exceptional folksinger I have yet heard. Although he is 75 years of age, his lovely tenor voice is as fresh as a young man's, while the ease and ring of the high notes, the freshness of his rhythmic attack, his clear intonation of modal intervals, and his finished execution of ornamental turns and twiddles (in which so many folk-singers abound) are typical of all that is best in the vocal art of the peasant traditional-singers of these islands"

For the words, and other details of these songs, see The Journal of The Folk- Song Society #12 May 1908. For his choral arrangement of BRIGG FAIR, Grainger added 3 extra verses to those sung by Joseph Taylor: Verse 3 from LOW DOWN IN THE BROOM, coll. W.Percy Merrick (JFSS #3 p.94) and Verses 4 & 5 from THE MERRY KING, sung to him by Alfred Hunt of West Sussex (JFSS #12 p.224)

Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair
From: Brian Peters
Date: 12 Aug 21 - 06:23 AM

Regarding the tune, Grainger's notes state: "Compare tune with 'Lazarus' in English County Songs and with 'Maria Martin'". The similarity is crystal clear to me. 'Van Diemen's Land' as collected by Lucy Broadwood is also a Dorian tune, but has quite a different shape.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 12 Aug 21 - 07:25 AM

And crystal clear to me as well. Thanks for all that Brian. I'll copy it and keep it. I already have JFS 1908. I've been interested in Collinson's collection for some time. He was worse than RVW for missing singers info but I have at least identified Charlie Wills in the London Pub Bridport in his collection, even if Mr.C. forgot to include his name. When time allows I'll revisit his collection and seek out Marion Hudson. I was unaware that Collinson recorded as well as noted down songs. Is that what you meant?

Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Aug 21 - 08:05 AM

firstly the tempo brigg fair is in 6/8, the tune for dives is 4/4, secondly although brigg fair finishes in the dorian it starts with the major key,
dives and lazarus is a different tempo and as you say is a dorian tune THROUGHOUT, THAT DOES NOT LEAD TO CRYSTAL CLEAR SIMILARITY. we have a different tempo and a tune[ Brigg fair that ]starts off with a happy mood and finishes on the dorian, It has a mixed mood whereas dives is dark throughout , very VERY different

Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 12 Aug 21 - 09:05 AM

When I've had a chance to revisit Collinson, I might start a thread for any info that's not on VWML. I don't think his collection has been published anywhere, and despite his shortcomings it might be worth trying to make order out of his song notations, just for myself rather than any project.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair
From: Brian Peters
Date: 12 Aug 21 - 09:43 AM

You're right about the change of time signature, Dick, but tunes are liable to do that, and it doesn't put them in a different tune family. The opening two bars of 'Brigg Fair' are almost identical to the second part, i.e. bars 9 - 10 of 'Lazarus'.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 12 Aug 21 - 10:41 AM

I didn't really know the song "Brigg Fair" before reading this thread but I do know "Star of the County Down". It normally takes several hearings for my ageing brain to take in a new tune but, after the mention of the similarities, I found it fairly easy to recall the new tune by reference to the other. So, for me, the two tunes are similar enough.

DC

Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Aug 21 - 10:53 AM

we will have to disagree+,
why not check the manuscripts which i have done
the first bars of dives[broadwood ]are completely different are quite clearly not in a major key, however brigg fair which starts in a major key.
this is a bit like the notes are the same but not in the right order, the fact that that the opening two bars of brigg fair and bars 9 and 10 of lazrus are the same notes[but in a different time does not make them the same feckin tune at all, they are also in a different tempo and have a completely different feel .
brigg fair starts off in a happy mood and is bitterswett at the end . dives and lazarus is mournful miserable throughout.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 12 Aug 21 - 10:58 AM

Kidson collected a triple time version of Maria Marten, almost identical to Brigg Fair.
I'll admit to being more interested in Brigg Fair and its Gypsy origin (see above) RVW collected several Maria Marten/Lazarus tunes from the Price Jones family at 'The Homme' in Herefordshire, all of which sound similar to Brigg Fair, however I'm wondering if J.T.'s version is a local composition. None the worse for that of course.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Aug 21 - 11:15 AM

none of which makes brigg fair and the broadwood version of dives similiar, the fact that there are two bars [a minority of total bars] the same in different places, eg bars 9 and ten of lazarus and bars 1 and 2 of brigg fair ut in different tempos..doesnot make them the same tune

tempo also affects mood as does the remaining bars which are the majority of the songs which are dissimiliar in tempo and feel.

songs when succesful are a combination of lyrics matching the feel of the tune.
brigg fairs lyrics are so completely different in feel to dives and lazarus,as are the tunes and both have tunes that are a compliment to their lyrics.and the different lyrical feel of
apart from two bars repetition of notes,in different places in the songs an overall minority of bars, the feel of the lyrica and tunes are not similiar.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 12 Aug 21 - 11:26 AM

brigg fair starts off in a happy mood and is bitterswett at the end . dives and lazarus is mournful miserable throughout.

"Star of the County Down" is happy throughout and uses exactly the same tune as the mournful, miserable "Dives and Lazarus", so the argument about mood doesn't hold water.

DC

Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Aug 21 - 03:18 PM

The argument about mood does hold water because of the jig 6/8 tempo.
starof the county down is not happy through out, it is no more happy than raglan road, it is about unrequited love
,Why doesn’t he approach Star of the County Down?

The singer doesn’t approach his newfound beauty despite being so smitten by her, or perhaps it’s because he is so smitten.

Instead, like many lovesick men before and since, he considers from afar how he might win her heart. He has our sympathy as he talks about going to the crossroads fair to impress her in his Sunday clothes. We can sympathise with him as he talks about making sheep’s eyes at her, but then he may lose us as he talks about telling her “deluding lies” to win her heart. Is that any way to treat such a beauty!

Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Aug 21 - 03:58 PM

I did a gig in Brigg.

It was the day of Diana's funeral. I put the PA up in the lounge under the telly.

Before long I was singing the Wild Rover to a tearful crowd as they watched the funeral going on just above my head.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Aug 21 - 01:03 AM

well done Al

Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 13 Aug 21 - 05:25 AM

Sorry, Dick, but the opening bars of 'Brigg Fair' are all in the Dorian scale. It doesn't 'start in a major key' and then change. If you're unable to hear a resemblance that Percy Grainger, Bert Lloyd, and all the other contributors to this thread have recognised, that's up to you.

Secondly, there is not necessarily any relationship between the mood of a song and that of the tune. There are plenty of happy songs set to dark modal tunes and tragic ones set to jolly major ones, for example Sam Larner's murder ballad 'Pretty Polly' which goes to the tune of 'Villikins and Dinah'. 'Maria Martin' (same tune as 'Brigg Fair') isn't very happy either.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Aug 21 - 09:41 AM

Sorry Brian ,
the version i sing starts off clearly in c major, the opening notes are e f, then we have the first bar line then g e edc, that is quite clearly a c major chord , bar 2 then could be harmonised two ways by g or by d minor.
the tune i sing does start in a major key and then chnge. bar one is harmonised with notes of a c major chord
the change to a minor chord can be in bar 2 or bar 3
personally i prefer he first d in bar 2 to be harmonised with a single g note and the next d note to be harmonised with a single low aor possibly g , so i am suggesting chords rather than playing full chords.
opening notes of the version i sing are not in the dorian mode.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Aug 21 - 09:48 AM

that is one of the reasons why i like the song, the change of feel from bar one to bar 3.
folk songs as you know are not restricted to one version, the tune i use does not start in the dorian mode.

Subject: RE: Origins: Brigg Fair
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Aug 21 - 09:48 AM

Sounds like 'The Folk Process' in action...