BS: When is it merciful to 'kill' someone?

Subject: BS: When is it merciful to 'kill' someone?
From: mauvepink
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 10:45 AM

In another thread an interesting comment has been made about 'putting down' people who have such terrible 'madness' that they have murdered in their torments. It is suggested that it would be bettr they were dead than being 'locked up with their demons' for life. It struck a chord...

I worked in psychiatry for 19 years. I have seen people who, while not being murderers, were certainly tormented by terrible delusions. Some I actually thought of as living a horrible death, tormented relentlessly even when medicated, and certainly suffering. I had one young schizophrenic beg me one evening to overdose him before he got close to being like some of the others. All I had to offer was a compassionate chat, drugs and platitudes, while he was suffering terrible voices.

Your comment above has made me think for sure. Not that I could or would ever condone having mentally ill people 'put down' from their misery. And, yet, I have nursed terminally ill people and agree with euthanasia under strict regulation and by patients consenting. How odd it strikes me that on the one had I can see the need to release people from physical agonies, to die in a dignified, peaceful and quiet way... yet have never ever thought of euthanising those with mental agonies. The comments have really made me think how it is I have dichotomised the two seperate, but very much related, things. Agony is agony.

Of course we never truly kill anyone by euthanasia. That is against the law. Debate is ongoing about assisted suicide. But high doses of analgesia are often in part resposible toward some people dying who have been in very high states of pain. How do we seperate physical anguish from mental anguish? Can we? Should we?

When I think of the tormented lives I have been part of in treating I never once thought that death would be a better option for them. I always thought that we could somehow ease their state and make them more settled. But yet in physical environments I recognise when enough pain is enough. I would advocate a pain free death for anyone that is suffering an incurable illness but have never ever thought that about mental illness. I have no idea why I have seemingly well seperated the two.

What are your thoughts and opinions?

My greatest fear of euthanasia and mental illness would be it's abuse I think. Wrong or bad diagnoses. No proper safeguards in place. When do we, how could we decide when enough was enough for someone?

I find myself at a loss for answers - perhaps thankfully - but it has raised a dilemma for me.

mp

Subject: RE: BS: When is it merciful to 'kill' someone?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 11:15 AM

I think that if the person himself or herself wants to die in order to end what is for them intolerable suffering, then they have a right to. It's their life, not someone else's, so they should have the right to end it if they wish to, and not be judged by others for so doing.

They might need some assistance from others if they have arrived at that decision.

Subject: RE: BS: When is it merciful to 'kill' someone?
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 11:21 AM

I don't think I could bring myself to make such a judgment. In self-defense, yes, but not otherwise. Yes, I could make it for myself, but not for another unless they have expressed such in a "final directive."

Yes, they have the right -- "Death is everyone's right." But I would give them the tools, not take it upon myself to be a judge, jury, and executioner.

Subject: RE: BS: When is it merciful to 'kill' someone?
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 11:32 AM

This thread deveoped from another that mentioned the child rapist and murderer Black. There is no question in my mind that he should have been executed regardless of his mental state.

Subject: RE: BS: When is it merciful to 'kill' someone?
From: GUEST,josep
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 12:07 PM

I think when you're being forced to listen to Justin Bieber, you have the right to either kill or be killed or both.

Subject: RE: BS: When is it merciful to 'kill' someone?
From: Deckman
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 01:40 PM

I'm still haunted by the memory of a young soldier who begged me to kill him. He was burned over most of his body and was "living" in a tank of warm saline (salt) water. This was in the mid 50's at an Army hospital where I was being trained as a medic. His pain induced "insanity" was such that none of the staff was allowed to be alone when we treated him ... we always had to have at least one other staff in the room. I think this mainly to prevent us from doing as he asked. bob(deckman)nelson

Subject: RE: BS: When is it merciful to 'kill' someone?
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 01:43 PM

Thank god burn treatment has evolved since then!

I would have a hard time helping a person suffering only from mental conditions to die. I would not have a problem in a situation such as The Deckman describes.

Subject: RE: BS: When is it merciful to 'kill' someone?
From: mauvepink
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 02:02 PM

Thank you so far for your thoughtful replies. It really brought it home to me how I myself see things so differently for one kind of agony to another.

Yes, in some ways the thread has been brought around by a suggestion that we 'put down', rather than 'execute', people who have done terrible things and were "mad". Semantics aside though the actual dilemma is, if such things were advocated, where would we stop? ONLY at people who had murdered or would we then start to sanitize our world of other kinds of mental health problems?

My own views are certainly affected by the difference of being able to want to die when one has full mental capacity as opposed to not being of sound mind and someone making a decision for them. I, too, respect the right of someone to choose if they wish to die BUT would fight like crazy to stop someone who was commiting suicide because of, say, a 'short term' depression that could be made better. Indeed, I HAVE fought like crazy to stop people harming themselves when not of sound mind mind. All in the hope that one day they will be well enough to want to live again.

What a question! As for solutions... this one is so hard to get a grip on at all for me

mp

Subject: RE: BS: When is it merciful to 'kill' someone?
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 03:43 PM

As Eric Bogle has written "never knew there was worse things than dyin'"

Eric was writing about a legless serviceman returning home after being wounded at Sulva Bay in the Gallipoli campaign of 1915.
The anguish of a young man severely diminished by war is all too understandable, but as MP says mental anguish can be just as excruciating...sometimes even more so.
In my opinion keeping someone alive, who has been driven to commit crimes like the rape and murder of infants is not "humane", but the most sadistic form of torture.....both for the perpetrator and for the families of the little victims.

I mention this only to illustrate that there is no absolute right or wrong in these matters....much as some would like to believe so.

Subject: RE: BS: When is it merciful to 'kill' someone?
From: mauvepink
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 03:57 PM

The whole thought and question is tormenting me as I think on it. When I think of how many seriously unwell and tormented people I have helped to try and keep that way and, yet, no way can I advocate 'putting them down'. 'Psychiatric drugs' can have their own horrors - especially in wrong diagnosis - but there has also been great advancements in the treatment of the so called insane too.

Perhaps the only humane thing to do is to literally put such tormented souls "to sleep". Thereby one is not killing them at all but at least giving them some sleep and respite from their torment. Indeed, often that is what we did. Literally chemically inducing rest and respite. BUT, some people have terrible dreams too and have no rest even in sleep.

Oh my... what a can of worms this question has opened. Have I, in some way almost unwittingly, subjected fellow human beings to greater pain and suffering in the past by trying to keep them alive? It's a horrible thought and yet the only answer I can give is a "yes" I have. Under some umbrella of believing it was right I could have been doing them a great wrong. I had no alternative. I could not and would not have ever been part of some kind of mental health death camp, humane or otherwise, but what a great philosophical argument this all reveals. Of course there is nothing I can do about it now but I also cannot hide from the thoughts this thread has raised for me.

What I can be grateful for is that I have never suffered as they did. Even now when my clients treat me as if I am their better, I never accept it. I am better than no-one BUT I am very much luckier than a great many.

mp

Subject: RE: BS: When is it merciful to 'kill' someone?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 04:09 PM

Have I, in some way almost unwittingly, subjected fellow human beings to greater pain and suffering in the past by trying to keep them alive?

I hope not. But I also know that, when a friend was very ill, I seriously thought of finding ways to slip them a mickey finn to save further suffering. They died before it came to that, I'm glad to say.

Subject: RE: BS: When is it merciful to 'kill' someone?
From: frogprince
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 04:09 PM

One of the most chilling, heartbreaking incidents I recall was several years back when a woman killed her children, by drowning in the bathtub if I recall correctly. It appeared quite clear in this case that she was profoundly mentally ill at the time. All kinds of voices were raised in murderous rage against her, as a monster. What she had done was undeniably horrific. What life would be like for her if she regained a full sense of what she had done, I wouldn't want to try to imagine. But approaching any necessary handling of her as "justice" or "retribution" was an obscenity in itself. There was nothing there but profound tragedy for all involved.

Subject: RE: BS: When is it merciful to 'kill' someone?
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 04:50 PM

Don't beat yourself up too much MP....most doctors routinely kill their patients when the time comes, and generally they do the right thing, although it is against our "humane" laws

Subject: RE: BS: When is it merciful to 'kill' someone?
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 04:58 PM

I have known at least 3 people with serious illnesses who I am sure took 'measures' to end their own lives at the time of their choosing. Fortunately, I did not have to be a direct part of the process, or even directly confront those who did. In each case, however, I saw very clearly their viewpoint, and I believe that I could assist someone in similar circumstances...if I was their only trusted recourse. Yes, this would entail very careful planning to avoid legal repercussions.
   I would hope there would be someone who would do the same for me if conditions warranted it.
I do not believe in 'sin' in the literal biblical sense, but merely in the most compassion I can muster.

I hope that I never have to make the decision.

(as an aside, I did, 45 years ago, prevent one person's suicide. I 'think' it was the right decision, although it changed several lives in various ways.)

Subject: RE: BS: When is it merciful to 'kill' someone?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 05:27 PM

As some of you may know, I have some experience in this regard in connection with my first wife's death three years ago. I have been hesitating as to whether to share these; but as I went public during a newspaper correspondence on assisted suicide about 20 months ago so they are online and in the public domain; and as this is, in the main, a serious thread [apart from one facetiously inappropriate intervention about a youthful pop singer which IMO should have been deleted], I provide links below for anyone who might be interested. Feel free to copy following URLs into your browser if you wish.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/3536238/Why-Michael-Grosvenor-Myer-left-his-wife-to-die-alone.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1091443/Why-I-helped-Parkinsons-disease-suffering-wife-plan-suicide--left-die.html 

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: When is it merciful to 'kill' someone?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 05:33 PM

Luv ya Michael.

Bruce M.

Subject: RE: BS: When is it merciful to 'kill' someone?
From: mauvepink
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 06:05 PM

Public domain or no... how brave Michael

I hope my thread has not caused you further upset

mp

Subject: RE: BS: When is it merciful to 'kill' someone?
From: gnu
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 06:14 PM

Ditto 999 and mp.

Subject: RE: BS: When is it merciful to 'kill' someone?
From: maple_leaf_boy
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 06:15 PM

"I think when you're being forced to listen to Justin Bieber, you have the right to either kill or be killed or both."

That's funny, Guest (Joseph). I don't like Justin Bieber either.

Personally, I would try to live with whatever pain I'm going through.
If I can live with depression, I can live through any other pain.

Subject: RE: BS: When is it merciful to 'kill' someone?
From: mauvepink
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 06:50 PM

Things like this make you wonder who is sick and who are just being sick.

Sometimes I just despair for our future when things like this crop up :-(

mp

Subject: RE: BS: When is it merciful to 'kill' someone?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 08:15 PM

I think on a battlefield or natural disaster situation where there are no medical resources, where there is no hope of survival, where the person was going to endure more hours or days of suffering...from a human point of view it seems it would be good to end it...but from a theological point of view I can not say. mg

Subject: RE: BS: When is it merciful to 'kill' someone?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 11:25 PM

Thank you, mp, Bruce, gnu. mp, I have found your thread a source of help rather than distress. And if, as the saying goes, I could not have stood the heat I should have stayed out of the kitchen altogether. I am now happily remarried and my life is getting back together.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: When is it merciful to 'kill' someone?
From: ragdall
Date: 11 Aug 10 - 11:26 PM

Michael,
My mother was diagnosed with Parkinson's when I was a young child. None of the medications which help so much now were available then. I spent my teen years as her carer, watching her lose her abilities and her dignity. It was terrible.

Thank you for allowing us to read your story. You were a courageous and loving man to allow your wife to end her suffering. I'm sorry that the law kept you from comforting one another when she departed.

rags

Subject: RE: BS: When is it merciful to 'kill' someone?
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 12:35 AM

Thank you, Michael. And I'm very glad that she had you - for that matter, that you had each other.

MauvePink, this is a wonderful line: "I am better than no-one BUT I am very much luckier than a great many" Isn't it the truth! When I look around me, I wonder why I have ever complained.

When a person is profoundly mentally or emotionally ill, I doubt that I would ever assist in his or her death (the situation with devastating illness or injury is completely different to my mind) if only because I think it must be that mental or emotional illness is a matter of imbalance in the system and the day may well come when they will discover the magic elixer.

On the other hand, I am with those who think that taking one's own life is a matter between that person and his or her belief system.

My own mother, devout Christian as she was, refused to judge the rights or wrongs of it when a son in law of hers with cancer took his life. She merely said, We all have our breaking point. It is not for me to say.

I was so proud of her.

Subject: RE: BS: When is it merciful to 'kill' someone?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 03:08 AM

For me.... I cannot comprehend the use of 'Mercy' and 'killing' in that context.... I have no right to take someones life or help them take it.. I have no right to kill but I can show mercy.... not by killing. I do understand that emotions run high when people close to us suffer but should those emotions push us into playing God?

Subject: RE: BS: When is it merciful to 'kill' someone?
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 10:44 AM

>The whole thought and question is tormenting me as I think on it. When I think of how many seriously unwell and tormented people I have helped to try and keep that way and, yet, no way can I advocate 'putting them down'. 'Psychiatric drugs' can have their own horrors - especially in wrong diagnosis - but there has also been great advancements in the treatment of the so called insane too.

Perhaps the only humane thing to do is to literally put such tormented souls "to sleep". Thereby one is not killing them at all but at least giving them some sleep and respite from their torment. Indeed, often that is what we did. Literally chemically inducing rest and respite. BUT, some people have terrible dreams too and have no rest even in sleep.

Oh my... what a can of worms this question has opened. Have I, in some way almost unwittingly, subjected fellow human beings to greater pain and suffering in the past by trying to keep them alive? It's a horrible thought and yet the only answer I can give is a "yes" I have. Under some umbrella of believing it was right I could have been doing them a great wrong. I had no alternative. I could not and would not have ever been part of some kind of mental health death camp, humane or otherwise, but what a great philosophical argument this all reveals. Of course there is nothing I can do about it now but I also cannot hide from the thoughts this thread has raised for me.

What I can be grateful for is that I have never suffered as they did. Even now when my clients treat me as if I am their better, I never accept it. I am better than no-one BUT I am very much luckier than a great many.<

It is hard for me to judge, people's circumstances are different, whether dealing with a terminally ill person or a severely mentally ill person and even more difficult when it is a family member and isn't something that is going to be decided upon until every thread of hope is gone. Some bad cases in the news can be so sickening, my reaction automatically calls for 'mercy killing' especially being a mum myself.

If someone is suffering so much and there is absolutely nothing that can be done it should be that individuals right to go. Of course it could be abused by unscrupulous family members or partners and each case would have to carefully be monitored. I don't have answers but I am reassured and hope that there are other people like you who raise the subject and question every aspect of it.

Subject: RE: BS: When is it merciful to 'kill' someone?
From: mauvepink
Date: 12 Aug 10 - 10:46 AM

I have a dear friend who now has almost 'end stage' Parkinson's disease. It is terrible to see him when he freezes up and his life revolves around the moments he has his medication and is 'freed up' for an hour or so. I still go to see him and we have supper together with his dear wife occasionally. In his early days of diagnosis I asked how did he see his end. In his mind as long as he was alive there was a chance some miracle cure could crop up tomorrow. He never has changed that point of view and his bravery, coupled with the love of his wife, is extremely humbling.

Indeed I have little to complain of when I have my aches and pains, or a bad day. We do, of course, have a right to have a little moan and not be happy about it, but never to wallow in it so much as to forget there are always those much worse off.

That, at least, helps me deal with my own ills better

mp