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BS: God balances the books
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Subject: BS: God balances the books From: Bill D Date: 16 Aug 10 - 04:40 PM ...or maybe God is just paying more attention. You know how it goes when there is a terrible plane crash and one lone survivor staggers out, proclaiming "God was with me!"? Well, this time most everyone survived...which is good. "A Boeing 737 jetliner carrying 131 people crashed in a thunderstorm and broke apart as it slid onto the runway on a Caribbean island on Monday. The region's governor said it was a miracle that only one person died." "...Survival was "a miracle of God. Thanks to God we are alive," Ramirez said, though his wife suffered a dislocated shoulder." Draw your own conclusions about how much 'holy intervention' was involved. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: gnu Date: 16 Aug 10 - 05:01 PM If He was paying attention, why did lightning hit the plane? Did he wanna bring that one passenger "home"? Awful incovenience to everyone else innit? |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Arthur_itus Date: 16 Aug 10 - 05:03 PM Quote Draw your own conclusions about how much 'holy intervention' was involved. Unquote None |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Aug 10 - 05:05 PM Why do you keep beating this poor dead horse, Bill? |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: gnu Date: 16 Aug 10 - 05:16 PM LH... Bill has been beating horses? I don't remember seeing that. You should report him to the SPCH. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: 3refs Date: 16 Aug 10 - 05:21 PM "one cannot believe a miracle occurred if one had already drawn a conclusion in one's mind that miracles are not possible" |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Aug 10 - 05:28 PM I would report him, gnu, but I doubt it would do any good. ;-) "A miracle" is just an expression for an unusual occurence that astounds people because they really did not expect it to happen that way. It's useless arguing over stuff like that and trying to invalidate another person's way of expressing their shock, surprise or relief over some incident. You won't change anyone by doing it, and it won't prove you're smarter than they are either. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Ebbie Date: 16 Aug 10 - 05:39 PM They do think that the passenger who died had a heart attack rather than dying from an injury. Perhaps this accident was put on in order to force that man to "come home"? :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Aug 10 - 06:01 PM There's a cool theory. ;-) Where is "home" anyway? Does anyone know for sure? |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 16 Aug 10 - 06:02 PM Another approach on miracles: In G.B. Shaw's "St. Joan", there's a bishop (who is one of the villains of the piece, if I remember correctly), who is speaking with some other cleric. He mentions that Joan has done a miracle. The other cleric is surprised to hear him say that, since neither of them believes that she's sent by God or angels or the Virgin. And the bishop says words pretty much like this: "A miracle is an event that creates faith." His point being that actual divine intervention is not necessary (if it ever happens); that an event that has the appearance of divine intervention in the public eye is the miracle, whatever its cause. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Aug 10 - 06:07 PM That's really an interesting view of it, Dave. I've seen a couple of things in my life that certainly seemed miraculous, and did they creat faith (in something, but I won't say what)? Definitely. I've had faith ever since in the particular matters that were touched on in those specific incidents. Nothing convinces as solidly as direct experience does. Sure beats reading ancient holy books or taking the word of some religious authority or another... ;-D |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Bill D Date: 16 Aug 10 - 06:11 PM I think G.B. Shaw had a lot of insight. and I won't bother to make a list of how many types of expired equines YOU beat, Little Hawk.. ;>) "one cannot believe a miracle occurred unless one had already drawn a conclusion in one's mind that miracles are |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Tangledwood Date: 16 Aug 10 - 06:26 PM Why do aircraft designers spend so much on developing safety features if divine intervention is the only factor in accident survival? |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Bill D Date: 16 Aug 10 - 06:31 PM Why? I suspect many would answer, "God helps them who help themselves." Not a bad answer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: olddude Date: 16 Aug 10 - 07:30 PM There seems to always be quite a lot of time on these threads either trying to convince yourself or others in the non existence of God. Yet I see not one who believes in such, trying over and over to convince you that such things do exists ... exactly the thing that so many people hate is the fundamentalist trying to tell everyone they are going to hell. I submit equally as bad is the atheist who keep trying to tell the religious they are Not going to hell. Perhaps a better approach is to let people believe as they wish and stop trying to jam your views onto others as aggressively as the TV preachers try to do with their belief system. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Smokey. Date: 16 Aug 10 - 07:37 PM Any decent god would have intervened before the crash. I move for a vote of 'no confidence' and the election of a new God by democratic process. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: olddude Date: 16 Aug 10 - 07:40 PM I don't think it works that way Smokey ... However your no confidence vote is so noted LOL ... And can't pretend I understand the plan ... but it if worked that way ... then I would have to join you .. but I don't think it does .. that was a good one |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Beer Date: 16 Aug 10 - 07:43 PM A member here years back stated the following on one of the "religious threads" "I don't let any human being dictate to me my spirit path". I thought this to be a great answer and have never forgot it. I wonder if God will balance the book on this priest. ad. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5S0sx1cmSck |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: olddude Date: 16 Aug 10 - 07:51 PM Hey Beer I bet in an open ring ... she would KO him in the 2nd round ... he sucker punched but I bet she could take him in a straight up fight |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: jacqui.c Date: 16 Aug 10 - 07:57 PM I'm with you Dan - I have my own belief system, which I will explain to those who are interested, but as far as I'm concerned. everyone is entitled to their own beliefs - so long as they don't expect me live accept or to live by them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: romanyman Date: 16 Aug 10 - 08:16 PM i died tice, divine intervention ? nah a good medical team is all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Beer Date: 16 Aug 10 - 08:18 PM I thought I would throw that clip in Dan to lighten up the subject a bit. For everyone knows it can become heavy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: olddude Date: 16 Aug 10 - 08:20 PM I had a nun in grade school beer. I tell you even with several black belts and all the other hand to hand training I have even today ... she would be able to whoop my arse I am sure ... LOL |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: maeve Date: 16 Aug 10 - 08:37 PM I'm glad of that good medical team, romanyman. maeve |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Beer Date: 16 Aug 10 - 09:08 PM That is amazing romanyman. Did you come back a different person? Just kidding of course. You had them to Dan!!. Yep!, A thread on that subject would be interesting but could also be/turn hurtful. Ad. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Bill D Date: 16 Aug 10 - 09:44 PM "There seems to always be quite a lot of time on these threads either trying to convince yourself or others in the non existence of God...."etc You know, Dan...what I see, and what concerns me, ...and why I started the thread...is the extremely common view voiced by those commenting on this disaster...and on other disasters, that 'God' does involve himself directly and 'save' or 'not save' individuals in such situations. *IF* you believe a supreme being is controlling what happens in minute detail, this belief will inevitably affect what you believe about your own responsibility for your own life and the lives of others. We DO have fundamentalist preachers actually pounding on pulpits telling their flocks that "God wreaked vengeance on this person or that group.." for some fault or transgression. (Did anyone besides me read how New Orleans was blamed for its own flooding, due to its 'sins'?) This sort of thing happens almost daily about something, but it's only when some well-known preacher says it regarding some high-profile event that we go *tsk-tsk*. I noted this 'relatively' silly plane crash event because it represents a mind-set that can easily become a serious matter when some major event happens like 9/11...or huge tragedy like a tidal wave...or conflict like the current vindictiveness being shown to ALL Muslims over this Mosque in New York..(not really a Mosque). If one is already 'primed' to believe in divine intervention over a plane crash, they are also more likely to 'believe' when some dubious authority figure tells them that 'God' wants 'X' person or 'Y' group to be persecuted. It is not that I want to try to convince people to give up their religious beliefs.... I merely hope that people will stop and consider the REAL implication of certain attitudes and reasoning....that may even NOT be a part of their church's belief system! It does not require becoming an atheist to reflect on what what really is at work in plane crashes and simply be pleased in good fortune at surviving a tragedy. I do not wish to insult anyone's religion, even if I do not share it....but I DO wish that education and churches could work together to help people improve thinking about what their religion is really about and what it...and their God... can and cannot do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Beer Date: 16 Aug 10 - 10:01 PM Bill D, I like what you said and now see a person of openness to reality. I like what you say about education and the churches but unfortunately it won't happen in my life span. Could say a lot more but better hold off. ad. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Bill D Date: 16 Aug 10 - 10:11 PM No, I agree that it will take time...and more people trying to explain it like I tried to.....without 'demanding' anything. People (mostly) will continue in their religions....but they need to come to terms with reality about what it means... thanks for the vote... |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: olddude Date: 16 Aug 10 - 10:22 PM You point I understand Bill, the danger in religion is when people think they understand the plan of God .. Either blame God or credit him. I suspect it has nothing at all to do with either but that is just my belief. It is when religious beliefs start to step on the rights of others then sure people should cry foul. Likewise I see too many people without faith trying to blame all problems on religion .. when in fact that is not true either .. Good and Bad people from all walks of life .. and many are as bad as the TV preachers trying to convert others to their idea of what life is about. Miracles, sure do believe in them, I saw a stage 4 cancer disappear from prayer that the docs called Miracle .. but people with faith would say sure thing happens all the time, people without would say .. great med treatment .. no two will ever agree. But my belief says God doesn't create accidents nor does he intervene ... it is life and that is our burden, our test of faith ... Intervention comes from asking more on matters of the soul .. and sometimes prayer does fix health issues ... but that is my belief and I do not expect anyone but me to follow it .. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Aug 10 - 10:41 PM We (you and I) wouldn't beat those dead horses if we didn't thoroughly enjoy doing so, eh, Bill? ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Ebbie Date: 16 Aug 10 - 10:48 PM I have another hand to discuss. :) What people often call miracles, I have begun to understand differently. Over and over again - repeatedly - I have seen it happen that something comes about in evident response to something that is put out into the universe (I don't know how else to describe it). It is often called synchronicity but that by itself explains nothing. I have often experienced it myself- and I've got lots of stories about it - but other people have told me of similar things. I am sure there are many more instances than I have heard about but it seems to me that many people either don't recognize it or have not learned to rely upon its happening. For the record: Really, truly not wanting to walk across town to deliver something to someone - and having that person zoom up to me, in a neighborhood where I knew of no reason for her to be; missing a bus in early morning, and asking myself who I could call at that hour who wouldn't mind running me to my commitment - and having a friend swoop up in a pickup truck I'd never seen before and stop and ask, Where are you going?; thinking of a person and having that person call me within the hour - often; getting on a plane to see my sister who was in a nursing home because of bad knees - and having her die there less than 24 hours later... There are many other instances I could talk about. These to me are not God-related, except perhaps to the extent that the "system" may have been set up to run that way. I dunno. I only know that I can count on it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: catspaw49 Date: 16 Aug 10 - 10:53 PM At least Pete Seeger isn't in this thread! Popular subject lately................... LOL.........oh well................ Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Aug 10 - 11:01 PM Yeah, I've seen that synchronicity thing many times too, Ebbie. It's fascinating. I've no idea what factors are involved in regards to making it happen, but I think it happens. A deity is not the first thing that comes to my mind when theorizing possible causes for synchronicity. I tend to think more that everything is innately connected to everything else in ways we don't yet understand. That does not necessarily require a deity. It just requires a system similar to a hologram, where every least part somehow contains the imprint of the entirety. In such a system nothing is isolated from the rest of the continuum, everything is connected. A certain type of event (physical, engergetic, mental or even emotional) moves through the whole system like a wave, and that wave is seen to break on many different reefs and beaches, so to speak. Every single apparently isolated event becomes as a stone cast onto a pond, and the ripples from it go out forever. None of this requires having belief in a deity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Bobert Date: 16 Aug 10 - 11:08 PM "Imagine no relgion"... I mean, hey, most of us are spiritual at some level... And many deeply spiritual who prescribe to religion... I mean, even athiests can be spiritual... Hey, I happen to be a follwer of Christ... Does that mean I belive everything in the Bible (especially the Old Testament)??? Hell no... (((Sorry, Lord)))... But I'm comfortable with with my faith... And I'm sure that most folks, at this stage in their lives (assuming that most of the folks here remember Richrad Nixon) are comfortable with their own carved out spiritual places... I mean, I guess I don't understand the discusssion??? What... Yer "God" better than my "God" or my "unGod"??? Some shit around her I think is over my head, 'er somethin'??? B |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Aug 10 - 11:15 PM Well, Bobert, if you wanted to follow anyone, I think Jesus would be a good choice. He had a lot of excellent ideas (reputedly, anyway). I like his attitude to social responsibility, love, mercy, forgiveness, kindness, generosity, and all that sort of good stuff. He got tried and crucified by the religious authorities of his day. That tells me right away that the man was probably offering some very good and progressive ideas! ;-) Just the kind of person I'd like to have around, in fact. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: olddude Date: 16 Aug 10 - 11:19 PM Jesus works for me also ... and Like Bobster, I ain't much in the old testament stuff at all .. I don't bother |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Ebbie Date: 17 Aug 10 - 12:03 AM (Poor Bill - hijacked again!) Today on Facebook (I still don't know my way around, so whatever pops up when I open it is what I read:) the Episcopal priest I used to work for mentioned that he was in the middle of a course in learning about the Qur'an with a group. One of his church members responded to the priest's message by saying that the "God of the Bible is not the god of the Qur'an". So I wrote: "Speaking as someone who does not have a dog in this hunt, I would say that the God of the Old Testament has more than a passing resemblance to the God of the Qur'an." I don't know if it will get a response or not. No worries. Little Hawk, I tend to think of synchronicity using the model of a strawberry patch: the blooms and the berries and the leaves are on top and visible but under the surface, all the plants are connected. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Greg F. Date: 17 Aug 10 - 09:43 AM Perhaps a better approach is to let people believe as they wish...I saw a stage 4 cancer disappear from prayer... Whoo, boy - see, this is where the difficulty comes in. You "know" that prayer was the causative agent how, exactly? Accepting any looney claim that comes along without proof is what got us into Iraq, why certain individuals still think "reaganomics" works & the like. "Letting people believe what they wish" is not necessarily a benign option. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: olddude Date: 17 Aug 10 - 09:51 AM Yea it is Greg or else would you like a few people, government or religious to control people's thoughts ... As I said, I don't expect anyone to believe as I do .. and actually don't care if they do or don't .. It is what it is for me. Nor do I want you to try and explain to me your version of life .. I mean this as no criticism I just don't care. I respect your non belief, appreciate the same consideration back if that is possible. Nothing more or less |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: olddude Date: 17 Aug 10 - 10:01 AM Here is my point then I will be done with it ... and I mean this as no disrespect to Bill, Greg or anyone else that I regard as friends. We can disagree on belief systems and that is fine to do so. What bothers me is people on the street corner with signs or door knockers trying to "save others from hell". Likewise there are atheists that constantly want to hold up their signs and save us from "religion" . Both cases are just as wrong .. Life is called free will. Each decides on their own |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Amos Date: 17 Aug 10 - 10:05 AM Not to be too much of a Day about it, the confirmation bias is always a risk when observing a correlation between something put out in the universe, and some event occurring which you attribute to that something. I am completely sure that generating impulses into the universe of thought makes a difference, but I have gradually learned to mistrust my filters which tend to find correlations by ignoring the uncorrelated data. When someone tells you why your personality is defined by the hour and place of your birth it is easy, if you are so inclined, to find all the correlations that demonstrate theproof. But you alsohave to ignore all the instances you've encountered where the correlation didn't hold true and the nominal Virgo acted like a Taurus. ALways good to double check assumptions. A A |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Amos Date: 17 Aug 10 - 10:27 AM IF their intent was merely to save me from hell, I would be at least a little grateful. But they seem inclined to make life right here a bit more hellacious with their intercessions and their far-out data structures. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: olddude Date: 17 Aug 10 - 10:29 AM And you are so right Amos. For me, when all possible reasons for the cure comes up short. When docs have no explanation, the only thing left is the impossible. And people of faith should question their faith, they should not accept anything their priest, minister etc says as the truth. I question mine all the time .. each time I come back to the same place ... and that is a healthy thing to do .. I submit those without should also do the same from time to time. Any event I am rambling on ... and no mean spirit intended from me my friends :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Bill D Date: 17 Aug 10 - 10:45 AM "(Poor Bill - hijacked again!)" *grin*.... it's ok. I always assume folks will bounce off of ANY topic in ways that reflect their own orientation toward things. But it's like singing certain songs in styles I feel are closer to the original...or 'true' (not really a good word) spirit of the song. Maybe some folks will absorb, even if it is only subliminally, a little bit of another way to approach the song...whether they change their basic approach or not. Awareness that there ARE other ways to deal with it all can soften and ease possible conflicts...and that ain't a bad way to go. ----------------------------------------------------------- "....where the correlation didn't hold true and the nominal Virgo acted like a Taurus." I think I have mentioned before that a woman told me once, after looking me up...horoscopically speaking... that she understood that Taurans, and me in particular, would not put much stock in such things. I could only shrug.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Little Hawk Date: 17 Aug 10 - 11:24 AM Yeah...I shrug too when astrology comes up. Not that I necessarily think it doesn't work...nor that I necessarily think it works either....I frankly don't know. I shrug because I just don't understand it and for some reason I am not interested enough in it to bother trying to. |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Ebbie Date: 17 Aug 10 - 12:03 PM I too put little faith in or spend much time in thinking about astrology. However, there is the occasional case where I wonder... Like when I met a colleague's husband. Not only did he look like my one brother, he walked like him (I have no reason to think they are related). Turned out their birthdays are one day apart. What? And two bandmates of mine. Both teachers, they became good friends after they met and it was almost a year before they discovered they had the same birthday. And later, after we were all in a contradance band, a little boy still in diapers joined us. He wanted so much to play that one of the bandmates brought him a piccolo banjo and the only time he would leave us the whole night that we played was when he would go over to his mother and get himself a cracker. Turned out his birthday is four days later than theirs. (He is now in high school and plays multiple instruments) One of the funny moments burnt into my mind: One time both bandmates showing him something on his instrument knelt down to the little guy's height. And he knelt down too.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: IanC Date: 17 Aug 10 - 12:08 PM A little detail that often gets overlooked in the story of the feeding of the 5,000 is that, however he achieves the "miracle" (quite a few people say that perhaps the sharing was the miracle) Jesus needs the little boy with the five loaves and the two fish. It's not much use praying for something - God do this, make this happen, stop this happening - unless we're prepared to do something, however small, about it. To me the miraculous aspect is that when you do get round to doing your part, you find everybody else is doing theirs. Miracles, to me, are commonplace. Often very small. You just have to appreciate that they are miracles. :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: GUEST,Silas Date: 17 Aug 10 - 12:19 PM I wonder just what the poor fucker who snuffed it did to upset the almighty? |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: Amos Date: 17 Aug 10 - 12:57 PM The nature of miracle-ness (miraculousity?) is that it happens outside the bounds of normal belief. THis can just as easily be a problem in where those bounds are set, as the case of something "super-natural" occurring. If you believe that all thoughts come from the Mother Goddess Kominta Naouw, then the notion of a cellphone conversation may seem miraculous. I don't have to recite Clark again, do I? Similarly, if you are hide-bound and committed to a Newtonian worldview, the coupling of quantum bits seems a bit miraculous. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books From: IanC Date: 17 Aug 10 - 01:02 PM I see miracles as being something that you can't personally explain. That puts mobile phones into most peoples' area of the miraculous. As I said, miracles are commonplace. :-) |
