BS: God balances the books

Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books
From: Amos
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 10:53 PM

Spinning yer wheels? Ran out of road? Hmmmmmm.....

Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 08:47 PM

ummmm... well... gee... (to both of ya')

Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books
From: Amos
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 08:37 PM

Now, Bill, it ain't true that you cannot believe in reincarnation; you just haven't observed the evidence thereof just yet. Never you mind, you will...

Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 07:38 PM

I'm prayin' fir ya', Bill...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 07:32 PM

I have no doubt that prayer actually DOES "...bring comfort during tough times..." for those who already believe.

I would suggest that it is one form of mental exercise ...much like bio-feedback or hypnotism. When one is convinced that 'this exercise often works', it creates a feeling that 'I have done something positive'...etc. Because of the built-in disclaimers... ("God might say "No", and that is a valid answer")... prayer is a self-validating hypothesis. If prayers are answered positively, "God heard and helped", if not, "God's wisdom and decision cannot be questioned".

In many ways, this is a pretty easy way to deal with the problems of life. Just saying "we can't fathom God's ways and His plans for us" relieves us of trying to cope with many of the bewildering complexities.
As one who tries to balance 'what I would like to be true' with what 'I can't KNOW might be true', I will guarantee that I often envy those who find solace and comfort in belief & prayer....especially in the death of loved ones. When my father died after years of decline, the only thing I could say was "at least he doesn't hurt any more.."

All this is why that, *IF* I had a button that would instantly stop 'religious belief' in all of mankind, I would NOT push it. I am resigned to the idea that 'death is the end', but most people are not, and I can barely imagine the chaos if their 'pie in the sky' was taken away.

I do not, and cannot, believe in reincarnation, 'eternal life in a heaven', and/or "The Wheel of Samsara"... but I certainly will do no more than explain myself in threads like this. (I usually will not go into detail with folks I talk to casually unless pressed.)

Perhaps many thousands of years..(*if the race survives conflict partially fueled BY religious differences*) will see more education and less reliance on 'easy answers', but I really doubt that 'belief' in supernatural answers will ever go away, as part OF being human is the ability to form "what if" questions, and invent the same answers over & over...

Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books
From: Amos
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 06:40 PM

Getting on your knees and looking to the heavens may really bring comfort during tough times, new research finds.

This will come as no surprise to many Americans, as 75 percent say they pray on a weekly basis in order to manage hard situations, including illness, and emotions such as sadness and anger, according to the study researcher citing Pew Research Center data. And most Americans also think God is involved in their everyday lives and concerned with their personal well-being.

The new study aimed to find out how prayer leads to mental relief. Results suggested prayer can serve as a distraction and even as sort of a punching bag.
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Lead researcher Shane Sharp, a graduate student studying sociology at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, conducted in-depth interviews with 62 victims of violent relationships with intimate partners. Participants ranged in age from 19 to 72 (averaging 41) and represented a wide swath of the United States in geographic, educational and racial terms, with largely Christian backgrounds.

Results showed that in general that God or another figure from religion acted as a support system for the participants. The figure had certain perceived characteristics, such as being loving, powerful and caring, that influenced why participants sought him or her out. But unlike a flesh-and-blood shoulder to cry on or an abusive partner to rail at, God was available whenever and wherever the participant reached out, Sharp said.

"If they vented their anger to that abusive partner, the result was likely to be more violence," Sharp told LiveScience. "But they could be angry at God while praying, without fear of reprisal."

For those who are not religious, Sharp said, the findings of the study may not apply unless they look to another "virtual" friend, such as a celebrity, in times of crises. [Thinking of God Calms Believers, Stresses Atheists]

Victims' stories

One participant, Monica, a white 25-year-old, said she used prayer to manage her anger over being abused by a loved one. It's "kinda like getting something off your chest, you know. I mean, youÕre kinda talking about it with somebody, you know. I mean, itÕs just a way to kinda voice your opinion, you know, about something, or, you know, let the Lord know, you know, how you would like something," she was quoted as saying.

Sharp added that prayer seemed to help self-image. "During prayer, victims came to see themselves as they believed God saw them. Since these perceptions were mostly positive, it helped raise their senses of self-worth that counteracted their abusers' hurtful words," Sharp said.

Marianne, a white Southern Baptist in her early 50s who had been married to an abusive man for nearly 20 years, sighed as she said: "I guess the number one thing for me would be the realization that thereÕs, there was, the God out there the whole time where I'm out thinking, well, 'This is my life so screwed up. I need to get drunk. No, I need to take drugs. No, I need to kill myself.' ... And just to, to be able to just sit down and think that God wanted to communicate with me and that I'm not a scumbag in front of his eyes no matter what. Wow, how cool is that?"

Prayer also served as a handy distraction for some, Sharp found. Folding one's hands and focusing on this conversation provided a reprieve from the anxiety of an abusive relationship.

Yet the consequences of prayer weren't always positive. "For some, through prayer they told me they learned to forgive their abusive partners, to let go of their anger and resentment," Sharp said. "But that's a double-edged sword. It's good for those who are out of that violent relationship to let go of it to a certain extent. But if they're still in their violent relationship, it may postpone their decision to leave, and that can be bad."

Religion is complicated

That double-edged sword highlights the complexity of religion and its effects. "Religion is often pointed to as a mostly positive or mostly negative thing. It's way more complicated than that," said Sharp, whose results are detailed in the current issue of the journal Social Psychology Quarterly.

Other research out this month shows that religious people are happier because of the social networks they build by attending religious services. Past research has shown that teen birth rates are higher in highly religious states, and another study suggested kids with religious parents are better behaved than others.

The findings have practical implications for mental health experts and researchers who study well-being. Sharp said future research should consider prayer as an interaction instead of a one-sided act.

from LiveScience.com

Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 14 Dec 10 - 05:18 AM

Wow, this really is a debate to get your teeth into.

Imagine how much more interesting it would be if there was such a thing as God?



zzzzz

Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books
From: Amos
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 02:07 PM

•Metaphysics (Greek: ôὰ ìåôὰ ôὰ öõóéêÜ) is one of the principal works of Aristotle and the first major work of the branch of philosophy with the same name. The principal subject is "being qua being", or being understood as being. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphysics_(Aristotle)

However the Latin word "metaphysica" means "metaphysics" as a subject.

A

Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books
From: frogprince
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 01:38 PM

Went to see a legendary southern gospel group a few years ago; to me, the group name meant an earlier generation of the family, and music I had grown up hearing on the radio. What we got was largely televangelist-type schlock, saying anything to sucker money from the vulnerable. Somewhere in the course of it, we "learned" that if there is one "true Christian" on an airplane, everyone aboard is safer, since God looks out for his own. Too bad I no longer consider myself a "true Christian" by that Dude's definition.

Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 01:27 PM

Someone told me that God wouldn't inflict troubles on me that he didn't know I could handle.

I just wish God didn't have such a high opinion of me.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 01:21 PM

Ebbie asserted:

Bill, if you're going to that much trouble, shouldn't the meta be *above* the physical?

The word "metaphysics" comes from the title given to the original Greek writing, "ta meta ta physika", meaning "to be placed AFTER the physics" (Caps supplied by yours truly), referring to the position this paper or chapter was to occupy in the final assembled book. Not "above", but "after".

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books
From: Stringsinger
Date: 13 Dec 10 - 11:28 AM

god is obviously Arthur Anderson.

Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 01:42 PM

"God balances the books"
Lesson to be learned here, leave the bookeeping to ghosts and bogeymen and you're bound to end up in a recession.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books
From: gnu
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 01:40 PM

Hahahhaa... you have given Terry a new hobby, Bill! >;-)

Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 01:37 PM

Or... any excuse to get #100

Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 01:37 PM

? One wonders how & why you ended at this thread again, Amos. Is it traced, or was it a link somewhere?
It is often fun to re-read these and decide how much sense you made in earlier attempts.

Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books
From: Amos
Date: 12 Dec 10 - 12:06 PM

More obvious and immediate benefits, I guess...

Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 06:41 PM

You'd rather think about Angelina Jolie, right? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books
From: GUEST,999
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 06:19 PM

God. Yeah, right.

Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 19 Aug 10 - 08:57 AM

As to God answering prayers, I'm reminded of something I heard as an early teenager.

My best friend for years was a PK (Preacher's Kid). His mother said to me once, "Yes, God answers every prayer. But remember, 'No' is just as valid an answer as 'Yes'."

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 10:26 PM

Divine intervention is unprovable. The books are cooked.

Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 07:53 PM

You could say the same about political and financial power, couldn't you?

Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 04:40 PM

True, Joe...but Gawd, in the wrong hands, religion can be an absolute bastard of a thing, let's face it. The damage, hurt and pain that's been wrought on people throughout the centuries has been grim.

But as you say, in the right hands, religion can be used for the utmost good.

It's just that so much of it lies in the wrong hands these days.

Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 02:26 PM

...and that's the Joe Offer I referred to in the other thread. *smile*

Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 02:09 PM

"Control, degrade, abuse and to create mind blowing fear" are indeed experienced by some who involve themselves in religion - but not all, perhaps not even by most. Religion is indeed created by humans, humans who wish to come together to share a common belief system. Sometimes it's good, and sometimes it's bad - but it is not necessarily intended to "control, degrade, abuse and to create mind blowing fear."

I suppose it depends on one's view of humanity, but I cannot find it within myself to believe that most humans are willing to submit themselves to those who seek to "control, degrade, abuse and to create mind blowing fear."

For myself, I find the practice of religion be be enjoyable, mentally stimulating and challenging, and joyful. I acknowledge that others have had vastly different experiences with religion.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 01:59 PM

As you please... ;-) Everybody thinks, but some people only do it at a "Dick and Jane" level.

Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 01:56 PM

Or,LH, more to the point, its a reflection on how those people DON"T think.

Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 01:29 PM

Greg - It ("God") is only Paleolithic thinking if you think about it in a Paleolithic manner. Many people seem to do that, but that's no reflection on the general subject of God itself...it's a reflection on how those people think.

You could do that about the moon too. You could think in a Paleolithic fashion about it (primitively and foolishly)...or you could think in a much more advanced way about it. Same goes for anything else.

Anyway, Amos said it very well in the post that precedes this one. He's not thinking in a Paleolithic fashion.

Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books
From: Amos
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 11:29 AM

The problem with all these variations on godhead, as Lizzie implies, is that they are representations of something that cannot be represented.

It strikes me that to actually contact and perceive the nature of infinite Cause of Existence, one would have to be highly spiritually evolved as an individual, first.

As long as one's sense of own Identity is layered over with pictures and alphabets and mental sediment of all kinds, the sort we use for normaloperation, I don't really see how impressions of godhead could be much more than a Sunday Comix version.

That being the case, I am endlessly amazed by how seriously that version gets taken. Men and women still fight to the death over it. Which strikes me as comparable to slitting throats over whether Doonesbury is better than Dilbert. I do not mean here to be disrespectful to those who seek and find some insight into the Infinite. I treasure that effort. I am simply remarking that like any perception, this one is susceptible to endless degrees and gradients of degradation and alteration.

But I don't think anyone really has a place in claiming which is which concerning another's travels in this highly volatile territory. Volatile, I mean, not because of its fundamental nature, as far as I understand it, but because of the shoddy nature of our own perceptual mechanisms when we are using anything but the purest of direct perception.




A

Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 11:12 AM

Joe Offer commented:

Maybe there's no obligation for gratitude or compassion, but I find both to be very helpful.
And no, I don't believe in miracles. I do believe that I am being cared for by a force beyond myself, and for that I am grateful.

I think that gratitude and compassion are like forgiveness: The benefits from them are basically to the forgiver, or the gratituder or compassionater (if there are such words. I guess now there are).

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 11:10 AM

oneness? See the Who will we blame thread...

Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 10:55 AM

Black Hole? Where did it come from?
Big Bang?    Where did it come from?
God?         Where did He/She come from?

Spirit?      Is inside each of us
Faith?       Is inside most of us

Love?       Is inside most of us....and it's Love that Heals.

Is God..Love?

Is Love..God?

Does God live in The Black Hole?

And then, of course....perhaps God IS one of us?

I tell you what though...RELIGION is Man Made...and that's why it sucks, because it was invented to control, degrade, abuse and to create mind blowing fear...and that fear has survived for thousands of years, to this day.

I hope that God IS one of us, but if he is, I bet his shoulders are low at the moment, and the wrinkles are deepset on his face, when he looks around and sees how his people have fucked up so badly....

But then again maybe it's God who caused the BP Oil Spill to happen, because that's woken up thousands of people to so many terrible things that are happening around the planet...

And maybe..hey, maybe God is a Banker!! Yeah! And if he is, then I bet He is the one who organised the corruption of the banks to start imploding in their faces!

Maybe, just maybe God is out here, among us, working hard to create the bad things, because He knows that only when faced with such mind numbing adversity, will his People finally come together as one to do what has to be done....at long, long last...

And it'll be God's People, even those who aren't aware of who the heck he is, who'll save this planet from the brink of destruction...

So maybe God is not just ONE of us...maybe God is ALL of us....

God...You, Me, They, We, US

Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 09:37 AM

Or Winwood Reade's Martyrdom of Man.

Or Thomas Paine's Age of Readon

Or .....

This "it must be god 'cause I can't think of another explanation" stuff
is pretty paleolithic thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 09:30 AM

Sounds ta me like some a y'all might benefit from a read of Carl Sagan's The Demon Haunted World.

Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 02:11 AM

Now if I could have what I wanted...

Sheesh.

I guess I'd start with being young again...say about 27...and in absolutely perfect health and really good shape...with the guitar playing skills of Mark Knopfler...20/20 vision...maybe half a million $ in the bank (that's plenty enough for me)...a record company willing to fund and record about 5 albums of my stuff...a really good backup band...just a tad more stretch to my singing range (which is pretty good as it is, but could still be better)...a nice house in some relatively warm climate where I could get away from things when I wanted to...

And then there's the women....hmmm. Well, let's not get into that.

My wants are relatively modest. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 02:01 AM

No way, man. ;-) What you need is a good dose of relative poverty and privation so you don't end up as an arrogant, conceited, self-satisfied ass on a free ride like Cheech Wizard! Think of the big favour God is doing you by dealing you this difficult hand in life. Think of all the character you are building through this rigorous process... (grin)

You are soooo lucky, man.

Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 01:59 AM

Somebody once said something like: Counting on winning the lottery is not a retirement plan.

But there is hope for you, Spaw. Write.

Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 01:55 AM

Well that theory ain't shit Hawkster. I want 10 million bucks but I figure I need about $200,000 and I don't seem to be gettin' jack squat or jack shit either.................Tell ya', I been studying on being a great wizard with the greatest of all time and as soon as I get Da' Hat I ain't wasting no time, I'll be doing tricks right off!


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Aug 10 - 01:44 AM

The idea that God would answer everyone's prayers (assuming there is such a God that answers prayers) is patently ridiculous, considering that a substantial number of people in every army pray for victory, and an enormous number of people pray for a million dollars or to win the latest lottery jackpot. ;-) If such a God were to answer all those prayers, well...

1. The answers would inevitably conflict with and contradict each other, therefore it can't work.

2. The whole world would go totally nuts, and society would probably collapse, causing world chaos.

3. That would immediately cause more desperate prayers which would conflict with each other in many ways, producing more chaos.

4. Things would get so completely fucked up that God would probably have a nervous breakdown at some point, and resign. (Some of this was touched on in a comedy movie where Jim Carrey got to be God for awhile and found out it wasn't as great as he had thought it would be...)

No, what is far more likely in the hypothetical case that any prayers do get answered is this:

You don't get what you ask for, you get what you need. ;-) I believe the Rolling Stones covered that concept in one of their songs. Some people may need things that they definitely wouldn't ask for!

Then again, it's all just theoretical, right? I am only floating certain possibilities here, not certainties. Keep that in mind.

Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books
From: Beer
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 09:53 PM

Don't waste your money Bob. I just came home with the winning number. I just know it.
ad

Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 09:11 PM

Bob... no doubt God 'could', but the line is long praying for THAT one.... you need to, ummm... take a number.

Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 09:01 PM

I...uhhh.. have little to say to that one (you worked overtime for it, huh?)

Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books
From: Bob Hitchcock
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 09:00 PM

Your right Bill, I always forget about the weather. Maybe God could determine that my ticket will win the lottery? If that's true I had better go and buy one.

Bob

Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books
From: Amos
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 08:39 PM

Bill:

Every doggerel has its Day, and it is clear you are mine.

As long as you stay on the hamster wheel of physical proof for non-physical existence you will be safe, not to worry.

A

Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 08:15 PM

..or 'adjusting' the weather for Gen. George Patton after the prayer he had ordered for the Battle Of the Bulge.

Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 08:06 PM

lol

Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books
From: Bob Hitchcock
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 08:05 PM

Well I always thought that God was too busy determining the outcome of Super Bowls and other major sporting events to worry about plane crashes and common folk like us.

Bob

Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 07:48 PM

amazing...like climbing into the rafters... and no doubt one could do 9 levels of Dante's hell too

Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 07:45 PM

I didn't know it would DO 2 levels like that. I wonder... metaphysical claims

Subject: RE: BS: God balances the books
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Aug 10 - 07:45 PM

Ah. I feel better.