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The CD-R Folk CD

GUEST,Suibhne Astray 24 Sep 10 - 07:36 AM
Howard Jones 24 Sep 10 - 09:01 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 24 Sep 10 - 09:22 AM
Jack Campin 24 Sep 10 - 09:25 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 24 Sep 10 - 09:33 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 24 Sep 10 - 09:49 AM
GUEST 24 Sep 10 - 03:25 PM
GUEST,999 24 Sep 10 - 03:50 PM
Will Fly 24 Sep 10 - 04:14 PM
GUEST,999 24 Sep 10 - 04:42 PM
Richard Bridge 24 Sep 10 - 05:11 PM
Barbara Shaw 24 Sep 10 - 05:16 PM
CDMaker 24 Sep 10 - 05:37 PM
GUEST,Spleen Cringe 24 Sep 10 - 06:01 PM
GUEST,John Isherwood. 24 Sep 10 - 06:35 PM
GUEST,999 24 Sep 10 - 07:00 PM
treewind 24 Sep 10 - 07:14 PM
dick greenhaus 24 Sep 10 - 07:56 PM
GUEST,robinRichesson 29 Sep 10 - 02:28 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 29 Sep 10 - 03:56 AM
zozimus 29 Sep 10 - 06:24 AM
Howard Jones 29 Sep 10 - 06:32 AM
Howard Jones 29 Sep 10 - 06:43 AM
GUEST,matt milton 29 Sep 10 - 12:51 PM
GUEST,matt milton 29 Sep 10 - 01:05 PM
GUEST,999 29 Sep 10 - 05:57 PM
GUEST,Seonaid 12 Oct 10 - 03:09 PM
olddude 12 Oct 10 - 03:15 PM
mattkeen 13 Oct 10 - 05:53 AM
mattkeen 13 Oct 10 - 05:56 AM
GUEST 13 Oct 10 - 08:21 AM
Bernard 13 Oct 10 - 12:29 PM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 13 Oct 10 - 01:38 PM
reggie miles 13 Oct 10 - 02:17 PM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 13 Oct 10 - 02:21 PM
GUEST,matt milton 14 Oct 10 - 07:03 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 14 Oct 10 - 08:32 AM
Hamish 14 Oct 10 - 08:36 AM
GUEST,matt milton 14 Oct 10 - 09:10 AM
GUEST,matt milton 14 Oct 10 - 09:21 AM
mattkeen 14 Oct 10 - 09:28 AM
JHW 14 Oct 10 - 09:41 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 14 Oct 10 - 09:49 AM
mattkeen 14 Oct 10 - 10:38 AM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 14 Oct 10 - 11:13 AM
brezhnev 14 Oct 10 - 03:11 PM
GUEST,Suibhne Astray 15 Oct 10 - 05:02 AM
JHW 15 Oct 10 - 05:17 AM
pavane 15 Oct 10 - 06:08 AM
mattkeen 15 Oct 10 - 06:12 AM
pavane 15 Oct 10 - 06:13 AM
pavane 15 Oct 10 - 06:16 AM
pavane 15 Oct 10 - 06:21 AM
mattkeen 15 Oct 10 - 06:32 AM
YorkshireYankee 15 Oct 10 - 02:11 PM
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Subject: Folklore: The CD-R Folk CD
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 07:36 AM

Just had another of these crash on me, which cost me a tenner a few weeks ago... I know we've touched upon this before, but I've no problem at all with Folkies doing their cottage-industry CDs - I do a fair few myself - but let's be honest here, eh? Call it a CD-R - which is no more a CD than a cassette is a long playing record - and sell it at a realistic price - £5 tops.

And the covers! Don't get me started...

And those sharp, flash Folk Singers I must bring 'em in -
With their home produced albums, and they think it no sin,
To sell you a CD when it's a cheap CD-R -
That'll cost you a tenner but won't play in the car!
Honesty's all out of fashion -
These are the rigs of the time, time, me boys!
These are the rigs of the time!


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Subject: RE: Folklore: The CD-R Folk CD
From: Howard Jones
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 09:01 AM

I certainly agree that it should be made clear that it's a CD-R. Apart from other considerations, I would want to make a back-up of a CD-R, in case it misbehaved. I'm not sure it's intended to mislead, I suspect there are still a lot of people who don't understand the difference.

There's also a difference between a CD-R burned on someone's PC and one produced by a commercial manufacturer, which should be more robust and more likely to play on a range of equipment.

Price is another matter. Surely you're paying for the music, not the medium? Cassettes (which really were fragile) weren't much different in price from the LP, as I recall.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: The CD-R Folk CD
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 09:22 AM

In cases of such CD-R media failures;

if I was a regularly gigging solo artist,
I'd consider it my responsibility to
include a contact email adress printed in the CD package
offering some kind of practicable online backup
of rar/zip flac files [& md5/sfv etc] for any faulty CD-r's purchased.

I'd find any simple, effective ways to solve problems, despite potential risk
of abuse of trust..


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Subject: RE: Folklore: The CD-R Folk CD
From: Jack Campin
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 09:25 AM

I have hardly ever had a CD-R fail. Whereas I have had a lot of commercially produced CDs that were unplayable out of the box - the only way I could get them to work was by copying them on my Mac using error correction and then burn a CD-R copy. I think the usual cause was failure of the reflective coating (it looked odd, rainbow splotches).

The big difference with commercial products is often the packaging. You won't get many bands producing something like Jordi Savall's recent products - multilingual booklets in hard covers.


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 09:33 AM

oh and btw..

I've bought [what was stated on an official artist website
as] 'new factory pressed CD's' direct from one of my favourite
established 'vintage' folk artists.
One of the discs arrived scratched to buggery
as if it had spent a few years on loan in a Public CD Library.

..but I let it go without complaint
because its a fairly 'rare' out of print release,
she's getting on a bit in years,
and I considered it a lucky privilege just to spend time
talking to her on the phone.


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 09:49 AM

Surely you're paying for the music, not the medium?

The medium is the message, which, in either case, in terms both Musical Quality & Profit Margins makes even £5 a little steep! We've been selling micro-run CD-Rs burned onto unbranded Taiyo Yuden media for £4 and still running at a significant profit for a run of 35 or so.

But that's a seperate issue - the item is sold and marketed as a CD, and is evidently burned off at home, with covers to match. Whilst I applaud such folklore (hence the thread prefix) I wince at the falsehood & the barefaced imitation of professional product.


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 03:25 PM

A new folder in the "Man bites Dog" file --

CD burns user.


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 03:50 PM

The two fairly common methods of producing CDs are by replication and duplication. Replication involves the production of a glass master from which the other CDs are then cloned. Duplication, which from discussions with folks who ought to know and do, has often got a failure rate of about 4%. That figure is from a few years back. Replication may have a failure rate of much less that a quarter percent. People have to do what their economic circumstances allow. I`ve heard good performances from both methods, but I prefer replication. Also, duplication from a home computer can be good, but I`d want to test every single one for duplication errors, and that can be very time consuming.


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 04:14 PM

I've produced CDs and DVDs from a computer-burnt master and a disc copier for some years and - to my knowledge - have not had a failure yet. The disc copier gives a visual confirmation of the pass/fail rate of the discs in the copier tray, so any "fails" get thrown away immediately. The only fails I've had have been mass ones where the master itself was, for whatever reason, faulty.

If I add up the cost of blanks discs (not huge), paper, printer inks (excessive) for covers, CD labels & inserts, jewel cases, postage & packing, (I do mainly mail-order - and mainly to the US) - plus my electricity and time - then I don't think the cost of what I produce (£7) excessive. Any faulty discs would be replaced immediately - hasn't happened yet (fingers crossed...).

The other, unacknowledged, overhead is the years I've spent practising, playing and performing - I suppose this counts?

It's not that I can't afford the overheads of producing a disc, even with a minimum run of, say, 1,000. I just don't choose to deal with any of the companies and prefer to do it all myself, at any quantity needed.


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 04:42 PM

I don`t find your price excessive at all, Will Fly. I think maybe people who do spend lots of time wanting something for nothing. In the parlance, tough beans for them.


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 05:11 PM

Commercial duplicators will make runs down to 100 units.


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 05:16 PM

You can get commercial duplication for any number, even less than 100, but what they produce is a CD-R. It's more expensive to get replication, and they usually require a minimum of 1000, making the prospect very expensive. With the (bad) luck I've had lately getting the graphics reproduced commercially, I'm not likely to order 1000 of anything.


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: CDMaker
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 05:37 PM

That is true - duplication is great for short runs (less than 350) - but once you start to duplicate more - the cost of duplication starts to compete with the price to replicate 1000.

And its not surprising that commercially printing inserts are disappointing. We spend a HUGE amount of time educating our clients on how to put their artwork together not for the web but for wet ink hitting dry paper.

I did write a little something about printing in general from scanned artwork - Jewel case inserts


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 06:01 PM

If you do runs of 300+ there's really no excuse not to replicate - you can get CDs replicated from a glass master even at these low quantities these days. If you're going to use duplicated CDrs, then make it clear that's what you're doing. You're not doing yourself or your fans any favours if you try to pass a CDr off as a CD. Ultimately, you're conning the people you rely on. There are plenty of CDr micro-labels that are totally honest about the medium they use and that's fine - its a great way for small, niche-interest artists (like folkies!) to get limited runs of their music out to the public. Just be straight about it, that's all...

Or get yourself an account with ithinkmusic, Bandcamp, etc and do downloads - even cheaper!


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: GUEST,John Isherwood.
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 06:35 PM

Sorry, pressed before I noted that this sounds like a practice perfected by a very unpleasant person from Harrogate, England, DAVE BULMER, who runs a long time irellevant organisation called CELTIC MUSIC, just one of numerous titles his sordid companies market themselves as, naturally I should mention that Bulmer sells these as official C.D,s from the catalogue of artists he has ripped off.


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: GUEST,999
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 07:00 PM

Re CD inserts: it is a bloody waste of your time and money to lay red print on dark background, or light yellow on white, or have those damned stupid irritating patterns that interrupt the flow of the lyrics you'd want people to read. I've encountered more than a few CDs where I've not bothered to try reading the printed material because it would require a few hits of acid to make sense of it all and I don't have that kind of time. CDs cost money.

1) Practice before you get top the studio, not IN the studio.

2) If you need charts, have 'em with you.

3) Record more than you intend to release, because not every cut will make the final selection.


If that fellow you mentioned is ripping off artists, why has nothing been done in court (or otherwise) to curb his actions?


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: treewind
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 07:14 PM

We made and sold a home made album on CDR about 8 years ago; occasionally someone contacts us and says it doesn't play any more and we replace it free of charge. I expect CDR to stop working after a while.


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 24 Sep 10 - 07:56 PM

CD-R's are the only practical production method for short-run specialist items. I sell some, which come with the same lifetime warranty as every other CD I sell.
    If the media is well chosen, and production is carefully monitored, I wouldn't ecpect that anyone could tell the difference---or care, for that matter.


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: GUEST,robinRichesson
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 02:28 AM

Hello Barbara Shaw, I was looking online trying to find the chords for NRBQ's
This love is true, and found an OLD post (1998!) where you said you had played it at a wedding, and could give the lyrics and chords! I don't know how to use this site properly, but I would love it if you could email the chords and lyrics to me! I am just learning to play the ukulele, and I love this song and it think it would sound great on a uke.

thanks,

robinrichesson@mac.com


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 03:56 AM

I see they've removed the Folklore prefix from this thread, as often happens on Mudcat which views Folklore only in terms of morris dancing and mummers plays, which is, of course, somewhat limiting. I suggest a read of Bob Trubshaw's Explore Folklore for some recent perspectives on the subject. The home produced CD-R Album is as much a Folkloric artifact as a Welsh love-spoon or Corn Dolly; it has both hoary provenance and a ceremonial tradition as well as symbolic significance; it is also essentially feral, and perhaps worthy of study (and celebration) in and of itself, price tags notwithstanding.


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: zozimus
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 06:24 AM

I have been copying my old vinyl to CD using a Sony recorder which requires blank CD Audio disks. I also have the option of copying thru my computer onto blank CD media disks. Which disks are of better quality as regards longlasting? What is the main difference?


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: Howard Jones
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 06:32 AM

The lowest run for CD replication I've been able to find is for 500 units. However since most of the cost is in creating the glass master it's not that much more expensive to go for 1000.

Professionally-made CD-Rs are supposedly of higher quality than home-produced ones.

The reality is that for most performers who aren't well known and who don't know how many they will sell, the cost of making even a few hundred CDs or CD-Rs is too much. For them, by far the less risky option is to burn CD-Rs to order.

The real issue, as SA points out, is one of labelling. If it's a CD-R as opposed to a replicated CD, it should be described as such.


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: Howard Jones
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 06:43 AM

Guest 999, I suggest you search this forum for "Bulmer" - be warned, though, you'll need a few hours.

In a nutshell, while many people believe he is acting unfairly, he is seems to be acting legally. He owns the rights to a considerable number of recordings, many of which are considered to be classics, which he bought when the original record company went broke. For reasons no one can understand, despite considerable demand for many of these records, he refuses to release them. Sometimes he will sell them individually on CD-R, but they are not on general release.

As for "ripping off" the artists, the problem here seems to be that the original contracts may be deficient. Even where he sells CD-Rs, if my understanding is correct the artists are not entitled to receive royalties. I also understand he has refused requests by the artists to buy back the rights to their own recordings.

Perhaps the artists themselves were naive in agreeing to these contracts, but remember that they were dealing with people they knew and trusted. It was only when the original company folded and the rights were bought by Bulmer that the problems arose.


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 12:51 PM

Er, sorry to state the bleedin obvious, but have you contacted the maker of said CDR and asked for a replacement?


"Whilst I applaud such folklore (hence the thread prefix) I wince at the falsehood & the barefaced imitation of professional product"

Poor you. Are you sure you're not being a tad pompous there? People can, and therefore do, put whatever price they choose on whatever product they choose. It's, like, capitalism or something.

I've had CDs and I've had CDRs that have stopped working. I can't remember what I paid for them. I enjoyed listening to them while they lasted. I then listed to some other stuff. Chances are whatever it was on that CDR is on Spotify. I sometimes wish more of my CDs would go on the blink: there's way too much recorded music in this world.


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 01:05 PM

hey I am going to take this opportunity to congratulate myself on my inadvertent typo of "listed" for "listened" in the above reply. I think I rather like the image of "listing" to music, like a boat in a harbour.

(Not, of course, like some boring Nick Hornby-type music journalist hack making lists. Ugh, no...)

SOB, while I generally enjoy reading your posts, they often come across as trying a bit too hard (like a Wire journalist, or anyone who insists on using the word "curating" to describe putting on a gig).

CDRs are a great invention, but they are no more "folkloric" than any other useful or pleasurable object widely owned and adopted: the electric guitar, matches, hair-straighteners, the paperback novel or a fizzy drink. If anything is everything, everything becomes a mush.


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: GUEST,999
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 05:57 PM

Thank you, Howard.


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: GUEST,Seonaid
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 03:09 PM

Oh, Suibhne, this is a gem! Whatever you're "Astray" from, it's certainly not a sense of humor and history!

"The home produced CD-R Album is as much a Folkloric artifact as a Welsh love-spoon or Corn Dolly; it has both hoary provenance and a ceremonial tradition as well as symbolic significance; it is also essentially feral, and perhaps worthy of study (and celebration) in and of itself, price tags notwithstanding."


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: olddude
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 03:15 PM

Never had one fail but I only use a CD-R that used only for that purpose. It is a light scribe USB drive and I only buy the expensive disks.   I don't know but for me it works. I think it has more to do with the power of your PC. If the PC is slow and old .. you will have a much higher failure rate ... My opinion

Dan


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: mattkeen
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 05:53 AM

CdR's should be a bit cheaper in my opinion - £7 that someone mentioned seems good.

Failure rates also vary with whick make of blanks you use.

Taiyo Yuden CD's originals are what nearly all professional plants will be using - there failure rate is much lower and they are more expensive to buy; not a problem considering the printable ones work out at between 25 and 48p each depending on which finish you go for. Make sure you get genuine Taiyo's though

This lot sell genuine ones
SVP Taiyo and others


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: mattkeen
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 05:56 AM

The other issue is it doesn't really matter if your duplicator at home says that the CDr is ok, or if it plays alright on your stereo and in your car - its the fact the replicated CDs are more likely to play on a very wide range of machines that all have variations including what level of data errors they will allow and still play ok.

Be upfront - offer free replacement/downloads - be cheapish


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 08:21 AM

Yeah, what's "hoary" about the "provenance" of a CDR? They are mass-produced discs of reflective metal, assembled in Chinese factories. They are burned on mass-produced Intel and Mac desktop computers, also assembled in Chinese factories.

What's "ceremonial" about them? I can imagine one could *contrive* a ceremony around their creation. But that's not saying much: one could do the same about any process. I could make scratching my arse a ceremony if I wanted to.

What's "essentially feral" about CDR production? It's merely the cottage-industry analogue of big-factory CD production: a process no more "feral" than my using a Black&Decker electric screwdriver to assemble an IKEA wardrobe last weekend.


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: Bernard
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 12:29 PM

The CONTENT of the CD or CDRom is what you're paying for, not the medium on which it is presented. Okay, downloads should be cheaper because there are no production costs involved, but there's still a website and banking element to pay for. However, the difference in production costs between glass mastered and CDRom is fairly minimal - it's the quantity that costs, which is merely initial outlay that is eventually recovered.

CDroms duplicated on a PC are no different from 'professionally produced' ones, as CDRom duplicators use a bank of CD burners in much the same way as a PC.

The big difference is in the quality, and therefore longevity, of the media.

As has been commented by others above, I, too, have had CDRoms for years without problems, and 'glass mastered' CDs which have failed. Some of this is down to how they are stored (CDRoms don't like sunlight), and all CDs are prone to scratch damage.

What I do not like is CDRoms with stick-on labels. If the label bubbles, it can cause the substrate (recordable surface) to lift, rendering the CDRom useless. Well, only useful as a bird scarer or clock face!

No, I do not think performers are 'ripping off' their public - but yes, they should include contact information in case of problems.

Some CD players will not play CDRoms, but they are becoming very few, as more and more CD players will play MP3 CDs...


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 01:38 PM

One would have thought the subjective significance of any such artefact defines its ceremonial (as oppose to commercial) value? Feral is as feral does; listen to any home produced Folk CD-R album and that much is obvious, hence the intial folklore tag, removed by Mudcat owing to its inabily to comprehend the nature of both Folk and of Lore. Not much room for creative expression in an IKEA flatpack (thougb it's always nice when you get it right) whereas your average CD-R presents you with nigh on 80-minutes of beautiful silence which to fill to your heart's content, let alone the possibilities regarding packaging.

And that's CD-R for recordable, not ROM.

And I still think anything over £5 is asking too much for something which is invariably little more than a hobbyist indulgence; for this I applaud their actual folkoric nature which is to serve the idyll in which recordings serve as documents rather than products. These days the Folk Singer must field record themself.


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: reggie miles
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 02:17 PM

In my efforts at having my own discs reproduced, so as to have something to offer to listeners, I started as inexpensively as I could. Having no real know-how, I went to friends who did have the skills and equipment to help me. As my own skills with computer duplication techniques and graphic production grew, I wanted to try to improve upon the attempts that others had made on my behalf.

The difference between the two products, that which was produced for me by others and what I was able to create myself, was like night and day. I used the same process, a home computer. Working on my own projects, I was able to dedicate as much time as was necessary to the task. Asking the same of someone else's time would have been more costly for me. Since I, currently, have more time than $, I toughed my way through the learning curve of how make my own recordings.

I began this exploration, of making my own recordings, by finding the least expensive products needed and readily available at local retail outlets. I soon found these sources to be unreliable for my needs. As they did not keep the desired stock on hand and their prices varied greatly. This led me to explore online suppliers. I found that I could pay less and get a far better quality media and supplies online.

The 'CDR' designation was the last thing that I recently added to the cover art of my graphics packages for each of my recordings. I wanted those purchasing my recordings to know that they were CDRs. Even though I use the most expensive recording media available, because of the differences in player qualities that folks use to listen to Cds, some of my recordings will not play on some players. I cannot control that factor.

I think that most folks purchasing recordings these days can readily tell, that a Cd that's packaged in a less than standard way, with a black marker scrawled across it for a label, in a paper sleeve, is probably not something industry produced. Many folks will support an artist no matter what kind of process is used to create their recordings. I've seen lots of listeners buying paper sleeved, black marker labeled, poorly executed home recordings for $10 each.

My recording's packaging is far more complex. I wanted to offer a more retail ready packaging, a better looking product. I ask a higher price for my recordings, than the $10 most others are asking, because of the production that I put into each of my recordings.

They each have a full color double sided glossy tray card, a full color glossy four panel insert and a full color glossy printed Cd. I use the Taiyo Yuden Water Shield discs, their most expensive product. I like the glossy finish that this product offers my label printing and the recording quality is top notch.

I have not found a company that will do, what I do in the production of my discs, for a reasonable price. That's why I do it all myself. This process also allows me to alter any aspect of my production. If I wish to add a song, or remove three songs and/or change the font on the cover, or alter the text in the insert, I can do so readily and easily at my discretion. I can create an almost unending variety of my products by altering them to suit my immediate needs. I can even create some that are simply black marker labeled in paper sleeves if I wish and offer them for ten bucks.

I think that this is what SA was referring to when he described the process as feral.

- having reverted to the wild state, as from domestication

One might look upon the previous inability of the average muso to easily create his/her own high quality products as a domesticated state of affairs. There was a time when this level of production was only within the reach of those with very deep pockets and that gave the industry a distinct advantage when it came to what kind of music was available for listeners to hear and purchase. It was a domesticated state of affairs where those within the industry decided who would get recorded and who would get heard.

Digital technology has leveled that playing field, as it has with digital video production and in so doing, has opened up a new chapter and era. These days, more artists are now producing a wider range of musical offerings to listeners than ever before in history. The same can be said for video production. Coupled with the web, these changes have pioneered a revolution.

We all are witnessing the greatest alteration of musical perception ever. More music and a greater variety of music is being created and enjoyed by more people than ever before in the history of mankind's brief existence on this planet. I think it's a wonderful thing to behold.

It is wild and untamed out there today in the digital musical world and I don't know that I'd like to see it any other way. It's a digital jungle. Around every turn of this inflammation stoopid highway lurks the wild and weird, the beautiful and bizarre, the unique and yes even the underdone and overdone leftovers from days gone by. You can offer your music as primitive or as sophisticated as you like and more than likely, however you present it, you'll find some ears that will delight in hearing it.


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 02:21 PM

Lovely, Reggie!


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 07:03 AM

"One would have thought the subjective significance of any such artefact defines its ceremonial (as oppose to commercial) value?"


That's what I said, and that's why you're not very convincing on this: if it's entirely subjective as to whether something is significant enough to be "ceremonial" than *anything* can be deemed ceremonial (like me typing this email, or making a cup of coffee). Sure you can try to convince people these things are imbued with a numinous significance. But it's an uphill struggleL I don't see any takers.

"Feral is as feral does"
That's rather convenient for you. Essentially, what you mean is it's "feral" and "ritualistic" if it's you or your mates, but not if it's Girls Aloud.

"listen to any home produced Folk CD-R album and that much is obvious"

I've listend to the myspace pages of the "feral" artists you celebrate, and the "feralness" hasn't been at all obvious: I've just heard rather twee "spooooooky" (not) acid casualty music. It sounded rather middle-class and studenty, no different to risible charlatans like Esben & the Witch.

"Not much room for creative expression in an IKEA flatpack (thougb it's always nice when you get it right) whereas your average CD-R presents you with nigh on 80-minutes of beautiful silence which to fill to your heart's content, let alone the possibilities regarding packaging"

You misread my post: the IKEA reference was, you'll note, in reference to the supposed "ferality" of the commodity in question, not its capacity for self-expression. You're saying folk CDRs are inherently feral - that's any folk CDRs, irrespective of what the music is - in a way that's somehow different from folk CDs. That strikes me as obviously wrong.


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 08:32 AM

Sure you can try to convince people these things are imbued with a numinous significance. But it's an uphill struggleL I don't see any takers.

Takers? I'd be surprised, I realy would. Just as there is a symbiosis between Frazerian (popular) Folklore and emergent (neo) Paganism, all such ethnography might resonate in similar terms - be it the (mass produced) souvenir of Blackpool Tower or the (mass produced) glow-in-the-dark plastic statuette of Our Lady of Fatima. Anything can be deemed ceremonial but not anything is ceremonial; it is not the thing, but the significance of the thing. In this instance I'm celebrating the Home Produced CD-R Folk Album and why they are invariably passed off as being CDs. So, in this instance the numinous is entirely mundane; besides which, I'm not tying to convince anyone of anything, though there is a certain anti-folk irony in trying to make handcrafted artefacts look (& sound) mass produced & (therefore) professional.   

I've listend to the myspace pages of the "feral" artists you celebrate,

I wasn't aware I've celebrated any artists as such; by my reckoning feral isn't about musical idiom, and pretty much any artist who is moved to home-produced their own CD album is doing something feral - be it a floor singer in a folk club, or a busker singing standards to backing tracks. Feral, in this instance, is entirely about context. I believe even the late great Don 'Lofty' Estelle was reduced to busking & selling home produced cassettes / CD-R albums in his latter days; Peter Bellamy likewise, or any number of street & folk musicians I encounter on a daily basis. The sort of music they do is besides the point, fact is these are people the Music Industry wouldn't touch with a bargepole.

You're saying folk CDRs are inherently feral - that's any folk CDRs, irrespective of what the music is - in a way that's somehow different from folk CDs.

Pretty much; I'm talking about amateur rather than professional product, which the CD-R has facillitated owing to its resemblance to the CD. A while back I was doing our CD-Rs on all-black Riteks just so they didn't look like CDs; even the unbranded Taiyo Yudens we use now have a greenish sheen to them. Such is availability of the technioloy that anyone with access to the most basic computer can make a CD-R album of their repertoir. Seems to me quite a lot of people do, but very few of these are going to end up with glowing reviews in fRoots, or featuring on Folk on 2, or getting any sort of wider distribution beyond word of mouth, but I doubt that's why people are doing it, so for that reason alone it is different, and, dare I say, significant.


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: Hamish
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 08:36 AM

I give my CD-Rs away - for a £5 donation to charity. They're clearly marked as being promo CDs and don't pretend to be posh professionally manufactured product, being as they're in a flimsy PVC sleeve with an A4 insert. But they do have contact details (well, as a promo, they would, wouldn't they?)

I reckon to have sold, er, given away a couple of hundred over the last few years. I've had to replace two.


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 09:10 AM

"Anything can be deemed ceremonial but not anything is ceremonial; it is not the thing, but the significance of the thing.?"

This sums it up in a nutshell. I don't see that there is any more ceremony in the production of a CDR of folk music than there is in the ripping of, say, a data CD of Excel files.

"The sort of music they do is besides the point"

You now appear to be changing tack a little: so it's not just folk CDRs that are "feral" then? This was one of the reasons I felt obliged to contribute to this thread: I don't see why making FOLK CDRs is any more "feral" than making CDRs of any other kind of music.

Take one of your "feral" CDRs. You appear to be suggesting that, were you to discover that in fact you were mistaken - that the disc in question had in fact been Replicated rather than Duplicated - this would then mean that this was NOT "feral" any more.

In other words, "feral" simply becomes synomyous with "home made". In exactly the same way a home movie is, or a pie is. That's why it's hyperbolic. It's like saying you're "curating" a gig to make yourself sound important. Or calling something an "epic" cos it's longish.

Feral's a great word; it almost sounds like the growl of a wolf. Doesn't ring true to apply it to bourgeois cottage-industry commercial endeavours. That's a hyperbole typical of hippydrivel Romanticism, which always likes to pretend, in a rather unpleasant cliquey-elitey kind of way, that when its mates sell stuff it's somehow qualitatively different from when other people sell stuff.

You're not in a tree-house; you're in the same smelly kitchen as the rest of us.


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 09:21 AM

I just ate a really feral sandwich for lunch. Cheese and pickle.


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: mattkeen
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 09:28 AM

Whilst Matt M has got a bit prickly of late - I agree with a lot of what he says. Especially I encourage people to think about whether the world really does need a CD of their music (other than the obvious reason of generating some extra cash)


Personally have taken to producing Cd (R)'s for family and friends and will do them for people who ask for them - but I'm not doing it for a living.


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: JHW
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 09:41 AM

I'm always wary of CDrs. My very good (pre CDr) Arcam deck will play some but only from the start onwards.
I have Hazel Bolton's new CD which at a Fiver I was suspicious of but wrong.
She told me Ken Hall (Studio at Sleights nr Whitby) arranged a small print run and minimal box.
(and did a fine recording of solo Hazel with excellent presence).
So there would seem no excuse for CDrs


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 09:49 AM

I don't see why making FOLK CDRs is any more "feral" than making CDRs of any other kind of music.

One of things I keep coming back to is a notion that Folk Music has more to do with context than content; that the feral nature of a Folk Music is defined by the shadows cast by brighter lights, and, however so imitative of same, Folk Music (i.e the music of the Folk) will always be measured by its shortfall, or not, in the case of (say) Susan Boyle. Here there exists a purity of both heart and art, perhaps a similar innocence to that the early collectors responded to in their source singers, though there of course content was the very consequence of a context they perhaps weren't so keen on collecting as such, but romanticising at some considerable remove - hence the paternalistic precepts of the 1954 definition and the religiosity it inspires in the Folk Faithful to this day.


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: mattkeen
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 10:38 AM

@ JHW

Was that small run CDr's though?


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 11:13 AM

I just ate a really feral sandwich for lunch. Cheese and pickle.

What sort of bread though? What sort cheese? What sort of pickle for that matter? These days I'm more likely to go for Mrs Ball's Chutney, but there was time I'd be making it myself with hips, haws, sloes and other wayside fruits. I still might mash up brambles with various non-feral mustards (Colman's is perfect) to set off the right olfactory vibe which is enough these days, given the right music which right now would be the Third Ear Band July 1970 session tracks you can download HERE which is still pretty feral to my ears.


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: brezhnev
Date: 14 Oct 10 - 03:11 PM

Now I'm confused. I thought Colman's was a feral mustard.


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 05:02 AM

Whilst not feral in itself, Colman's mustard can be the ingredient of more feral, wayside, or even freegan fare. The 50g tube is ideal in this respect, handy enough tpo keep in your feral-fiddle case in order to pep up even the most unappetising hedge-salad, bin-leavings or road-kill. Even when dining out it comes in handy when the house-mustards just don't cut it, which, to be honest, they very seldom do - at least not at the cheap joints I frequent (Wetherspoons, Harvester, and Subway who don't offer any mustards at all).

In terms of Pure Nard, you can do a lot worse than Colman's Horseradish Sauce, but the regular 259ml jar is just too cumbersome for any such feral use - and whilst the Heinz sachets available from caterers are handy, their contents are rancid. So, having unsuccesfully petitioned Colman's to introduce a 50g tube on various occasions (1981, 1995 & 2004) the solution, thus far, has been to decant it into well-washed 19gm tiger balm jars which I also keep in my feral-fiddle case along with rosin, spare strings, Zoom H1, various Jew's Harps (A, D, G & E Szilagyi Black Fires), penny whistles (Clarkes C & D), an assortment of mutes, rosary beads, a spool of 16lb fishing line, Opinel pen-knife, Stanley 99-E, a tiny Steiff bear (called Trouble Bruin), hedgehog skull, 2 Green Man carvings, glow-in-the-dark statuette of Our Lady of Fatima, a lock of my great-great-grandmother's hair, an assortment of Acme fowler-calls (duck, crow, nightingale, teal, cucko, quail etc.), whizz-sirens, wind-whistles and Swiss Warblers, as well as my fiddles (both regular & Black Sea) and their bows.


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: JHW
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 05:17 AM

mattkeen No that was my point. Its a CD not a CDr, silver back not blue and with the serial no printed at the centre. Paint type printed front. Plays flawlessy on my Arcam Delta deck.
I don't know how small a run, I'll try and ring Ken Hall


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: pavane
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 06:08 AM

JHW - Why make CD-R's? Because reputable CD duplicators need evidence that copyright fees have been paid, (e.g. to MCPS in UK) and quantities are logged. For small quantites, a flat rate fee often suffices, but if you keep doing more copies, the fee may go up.

Making your own CD-R bypasses this, but illegally if there is any copyright song or music. And you may be amazed what is subject to copyright.

"Happy Birthday to you" is one example.

Wild Mountain Thyme is another, even though based on a 1797 song.
Certain people made a career of copyrighting traditional songs!
And there is no definitive source of public domain songs.


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: mattkeen
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 06:12 AM

Thanks JHW - the extra info would be very useful

Dont understand? - whats wrong with paying the MCPS fess?


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: pavane
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 06:13 AM

And, of course, if quantities are not logged, you don't have the hassle of paying royalties. (Not sure whether this is the driver behind Celtic Music CD-R's, of course)


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: pavane
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 06:16 AM

MAttkeen - nothing wrong, and it's a legal requirement to pay copyright owners, but people may see it as an unnecessary extra cost. If you look closely at a commercial CD in the UK, you will see their logo somewhere (And also on our own CD-Rs)

Do you see it on these folk CD-R's sold in commercial outlets?


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: pavane
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 06:21 AM

Naturally, if all the songs are clearly public domain, or your own compositions, the MCPS fee is not needed, but there can still be claims of infringement - look at My Sweet Lord (George Harrison, but claimed to be from He's so fine), or Fings ain't what they used to be (Bart, but claimed to be In the Mountain Greenery), to name just a few well known examples.

And Scarborough Fair (Paul Simon, trad song but Carthy's arrangement)


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: mattkeen
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 06:32 AM

I agree with you pavane

Generally there is too much whinging about MCPS/PRS etc and in this time of "free" music musicians, arrangers and composers deserve to be paid and have some protection and support

I personally did a couple of CDs under a Creative Commons license by the way - which I think is a serious attempt to address the copying/stealing issue - anyway sorry to digress


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Subject: RE: The CD-R Folk CD
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 02:11 PM

mattkeen -- what is a Creative Commons license? Sounds interesting...


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