BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK

Subject: RE: BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Dec 10 - 12:54 PM

LOL Al!

Subject: RE: BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 28 Dec 10 - 11:18 AM

'Well put John. That's precisely why I posed the question "Any of you spent much time navigating a nuclear submarine around the Kyles of Lochalsh? Or navigating any kind of sea-going vessel anywhere?"

As usual, the self-elected Mudcat "Experts-on-Everything" have taken great delight in slagging off a group of courageous, skilled people who do difficult, dangerous things, of which they themselves have no experience whatsoever.'

I agree totally Johnny. The whole incident puts me in mind of when me and a mate were twelve years old and we were on a secret reconaissance mision looking at ladies wobbly bits under water in Skegness swimming pools with our snorkels. I can tell you - it was a damn tricky business. You never knew where you were going to come up.

Consequently I have every sympathy with this submariner. Luckily when we fell into enemy hands we had our false names and cover stories ready. although there was machine outside the mens changing rooms, dispensing a dollop of brylcreem for a penny, and we didn't hang about to use it that day.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 28 Dec 10 - 12:17 AM

Well Les "best in the world" may have been part of the sales pitch but several years later with them still unfit for sea duty surely you don't still believe that. The first one caught fire near Ireland and that is only the start of the trouble. Mostly I would blame the Canadian Navy and my own government for being so damn stupid! Buyer beware!
Here is a news update on these useless tubs:
Canadian Submarine

Subject: RE: BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK
From: Les from Hull
Date: 27 Dec 10 - 01:17 PM

Actually they were possibly the best diesel-electric submarines in the world when the RN got them at a cost of 900m. Canada paid 240m but moved them straight to Canada instead of refitting them in the UK after they were laid up. That's when things went wrong. Don't blame Vickers or the RN.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 26 Dec 10 - 11:35 PM

A few years ago the Royal navy unloaded four subs on the Canadian Navy. They were total lemons incapable of either floating or sinking so for the most part they sit in drydock. There's a sucker born every day (especially in our government) so you Brits could no doubt unload this tub on us as well. If it won't float to cross the Atlantic the Dutch have a huge semi-sumergable transport that will carry it over to decorate the dockyard in Halifax. Buyer beware be damned, our fools would love to have her dockside!

Subject: RE: BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK
From: framus
Date: 26 Dec 10 - 02:09 PM

I've just revisited this site - since last I have been informed (by QI on the telly) that in the RN submarines aren't ships, they're boats.
Just thought I'd mix it a bit.
Davy.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 07:00 AM

Well put John. That's precisely why I posed the question "Any of you spent much time navigating a nuclear submarine around the Kyles of Lochalsh? Or navigating any kind of sea-going vessel anywhere?"

As usual, the self-elected Mudcat "Experts-on-Everything" have taken great delight in slagging off a group of courageous, skilled people who do difficult, dangerous things, of which they themselves have no experience whatsoever.

Incidentally, it's believed that the word 'expert' may derive from two others - 'ex' meaning 'has-been', and 'spurt' meaning 'a drip under pressure'.

Sounds about right to me. :-) :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 05:07 PM

The "stuck" description of the incident is perhaps a bit forceful(?).

The article I saw a couple of days ago indicated that the rudder was grounded, and they were unable to free it. Since they were on early sea trials, it likely was under a part-power limitation and they wouldn't likely try very hard to shake loose, at least until a full and accurate assessment of the situation was in hand.

Once the ship shut down, and the divers looked it over, it probably made very good sense to wait for the tide, and a tow craft, to "preserve the evidence" as much as to prevent further damage.

"Absorbent panels" as used on "stealth submarines" are a lot like the ones used on "stealth airplanes" which, in the latter case are so fragile that the "most modern aircraft" can't fly if it's raining and can't even be left out in the rain on the runway.

As to the detection of obstacles, while weather radar and navigation radar/sonar are somewhat different, nearly all such systems have a blind "near zone" that precludes seeing much of anything closer than the interval between "turning off the ping and turning on the receiver." The "obstacle" should have been seen before they got there, but within a certain (unknown) distance it probably was "invisible." And the obstacle may have been as "absorbent" as the tiles on the sub - i.e. undetectable. (Anybody know the sonar reflectivity coefficient for bottom muck?)

A few, mostly smaller, aircraft have weather radar notoriously incapable of looking "straight ahead." This is because the "stylists" thought "pointy noses" were sexy, and the beam is diffracted/scattered as it sweeps past the "point." To see what's straight ahead in one of these planes, you jam the rudder hard to one side, and drop a wing so that you can "fly sideways" - but I'm not sure there's an equivalent "simple maneuver" for a sub with a narrow view of things, and it's not too useful during a turbulent penetration of a squall line in an airplane.

Obviously an AWSHIT, but at least nobody was shooting at them so the cautious recovery seems like a pretty good SOP, even if it is a bit embarrassing.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 07:56 AM

When HMS Astute is fully armed, the Isle of Skye may be blown sky-high!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 07:49 AM

When Astute is fully commissioned as a hunter-killer she will be fitted out with Tomahawk missiles which can be equipped with nuclear warheads for TLAM operations though they are more commonly used with conventional explosives for anti-ship use. So yes she is technically a nuke ship.

"Navy Larkers" will recall the exchanges between Philips and Goldstein usually ended with a cry of "Everybody Down!" followed by a rending crunch.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 Oct 10 - 11:56 AM

gnu-

As in a hirsute doggy story?

Charley

Subject: RE: BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK
From: gnu
Date: 23 Oct 10 - 05:57 PM

Charley... hirsute?

Subject: RE: BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK
From: gnu
Date: 23 Oct 10 - 05:46 PM

It don't got no nukes? Of course not... it's not in full service. But when it is... it will have nukes to the teeth. The Brits don't mess around when it comes to war. They are, beyond doubt, the baddest mothers on earth when it comes to "Don't mess with me." Ain't nobody mess with the Brits.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Oct 10 - 05:40 PM

Rise again!
Rise again!
Let her name not be lost to the knowledge of men;
And those who loved her best and were with her to the end
Will make the "HMS Astute" rise again!

Let's see, what rhymes with "astute":

Acute
Bandicoot
Brute
Cute
Disrepute
Fruit
Galoot
Hoot
Irresolute
Jute
Loot
Newt
Refute
Suit

Oh, well!

Charley noble

Subject: RE: BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK
From: BTNG
Date: 23 Oct 10 - 05:18 PM

I think the hydrographers should take a look at that channel. I was reading somewhere that the charts the sub had were supposed to be up to date.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 23 Oct 10 - 04:49 PM

Well maybe Joe or one of the other clones can change it accordingly. They have that right.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 10 - 04:35 PM

There's enough room to give it a clearer name.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 23 Oct 10 - 04:31 PM

Unfortunately, the titles in Mudcat are rather short, so that's why it reads Nuke Sub

Subject: RE: BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 10 - 04:25 PM

No, I said it wasn't a nuke sub. Nukes, nuclear weapons. To nuke, to use nuclear weapons. The correct description is that it is a nuclear-powered submarine. Nothing else will be anywhere near as clear. It would be perfectly possible for a nation that wasn't a nuclear power to have nuclear-powered subs, but they wouldn't have nuke subs. If you call it a nuke sub there is every chance that some people will think you're talking about a submarine carrying nuclear weapons. It isn't hard, this stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK
From: bubblyrat
Date: 23 Oct 10 - 04:08 PM

......or even the conning tower ( if the RN don't call it a "fin" or whatever,like our American cousins ).

Subject: RE: BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK
From: bubblyrat
Date: 23 Oct 10 - 04:05 PM

It is a NUCLEAR POWERED submarine ; an SSN , as opposed to a SSBN , or "Bomber" as they call them. So to call it a "Nuclear Sub" in everyday parlance is fine. USS Nimitz cannot launch nuclear missiles,but she is still a "Nuclear Aircraft Carrier", again in everyday parlance.You can always tell a "nuclear powered " submarine by the escaping steam from the connong- tower vent ,as per the recent shots of "Astute"; you wouldn't get that from any "conventional" submarine !!

Subject: RE: BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 10 - 03:21 PM

It is not a nuke sub. Just thought I'd mention it.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Oct 10 - 02:15 AM

Oh crap! I hate HTML!

Subject: RE: BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Oct 10 - 02:14 AM

"Can these things get under Correyvreckan?"

I wouldn't bet against it, Dave. There's plenty of depth of water through the Corryvrecka. Although there's a pretty powerful race at certain states of tide they have plenty of power, and as long as they avoid the rock pinnacle it ought to be perfectly possible. Whether they'd choose to do it under normal circumstances is open to conjecture, though.

I've sailed through the Corryvreckan(in a pretty substantial schooner), and an exciting ride it was too!

Subject: RE: BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK
From: EBarnacle
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 11:49 PM

Durn it, Joe, you beat me to it.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK
From: BTNG
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 08:56 PM

*Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK*


oops!

Subject: RE: BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 07:44 PM

I thought the Royal Navy kept all its subs in the North Channel so they can sink fishing boats!!!

Can these things get under Correyvreckan?

Subject: RE: BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK
From: framus
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 07:41 PM

Yeah.
Speed (?) bonny boat like a bird on the wing.
It's nice to know they have all been satisfactorialy pulled off.
Bet that put a smile on their faces.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 07:28 PM

There's a nice video of the sub being pulled free here (click).
Hmmmm. Maybe it's time for a revision of the Skye Boat Song.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK
From: Leadfingers
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 07:16 PM

The Skipper is Deep in The Doo Doo !!

Subject: RE: BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK
From: GUEST,folkiedave
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 05:22 PM

Clearly a Taliban sandbank. The tug was due to be cut in the defence review.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK
From: Rumncoke
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 04:27 PM

I believe it is something slightly softer than rocks that they were sat on, and there is probably little structural damage, though the reputation of the officer on watch at the time will surely be dented.

left hand down a bit it is Sir - wouldn't want to hit that buoy now would we.

What buoy is that?

That one over there, Sir, bobbing up and down - oh cripes!

Those of us old enough to remember 'The Navy Lark'will be able to - whats the sound version of visualise? audiolise? the voices.

Anne

Subject: RE: BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 04:13 PM

Actually I have a friend who did indeed navigate large naval vessels (and small stealthy ones) around the globe. He got us very lost driving from North Kent across to Edenbridge one year.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 04:09 PM

Hey I stayed at a Holiday Inn AND watched The Abyss.

Remeber the US nuke sub that surfaced and sent a Japanese Fishing vessel into the air and down to the bottom? That cost alot more money to settle than running aground.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK
From: mauvepink
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 04:03 PM

Well, no, Backwoodsman. But we do pay our taxes for men who should be able to!

:-)

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 03:19 PM

Any of you spent much time navigating a nuclear submarine around the Kyles of Lochalsh? Or navigating any kind of sea-going vessel anywhere?

Thought not.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 02:16 PM

So much for being stealthy. It should come equipped with stealthy tug boats.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK
From: mauvepink
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 02:14 PM

She's afloat again now after a tug, the Anglican Prince, that may be scrapped in the spending cuts has helped get her clear of the sand banks. I sincerely hope they were just sandbanks as there is much less likelihood of damage except to egos

It could have been worse. They could have taken one of the Skye bridge supports out as they ran into it. The sonar can cover 3000 square miles around the vessel but maybe not the most important bit of potential contact!

All's well that ends well... and now the further costs of checks and enquiries! Perhaps they will be more Astute with navigation after that lol

In fairness, though, I think I should wait until the facts are known why this happened before pointing too much fun. There could be a very legitimate reason that was outside of human factors and navigational error.

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 02:11 PM

This is gonna give a whole new meaning to "I've just come down from the Isle of Skye/And I'm very big and I'm awfully shy...."

Subject: RE: BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 11:13 AM

Here's an article from the NY Times with a stealthy link to a YouTube video: click.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 10:28 AM

"Under the sea INTO Skye" is more like it.

But for heaven's sakes, don't look because it's stealth and you can't see it anyway. Also you'd be violating the Official Secrets Act if you saw the thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 09:24 AM

"Under the sea to Skye"   (though not in this case)

Subject: RE: BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK
From: bubblyrat
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 09:22 AM

It's one way of celebrating around Trafalgar Day, I suppose ? Perhaps they HAD been ,too enthusiastically ?? Anyway,it was NOT an astute move.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 09:09 AM

They exercise up there a lot, there is a torpedo firing range in the Sound of Raasay.
Used to see them regularly when I had business in Applecross.

Subject: RE: BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 09:06 AM

We were going to spy on Ireland, but..... Skye's the limit!

Subject: RE: BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK
From: Arnie
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 08:29 AM

Somehow, I don't think the captain is going to get a commendation for this. Or should that be ex-captain?

Navigator; There's a bloody big rock dead ahead captain

Captain: Proceed dead ahead - we're undetectable!

Subject: RE: BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 08:24 AM

Rock On

Subject: RE: BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 08:21 AM

Left hand down a bit? :)

Subject: RE: BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK
From: mauvepink
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 07:24 AM

Looks so stealthy there, sat just off the coast, with most of it ABOVE the water line ;-)

Pity whoever was in control of it when this happened. I bet they wish they could be stealthy just now!

Of course one of the best forms of deterrance is to let the other side know you have it. Perhaps they could do some paid for tours to get some of the money back this is going to cost for repairs. I wonder if they budgeted for it on Tuesday or is this the Navy's way of saying "Here we are, over here, the super power Navy with a stuck ship". Maybe they popped up to fish for their brekkies because the food is not too good due to rations and cutback?

Flippancy aside. I am glad no-one was injured and I hope they get her afloat soon. Things like this cost money we don't have and it also loses face both with our allies and our adversaries (the rocks ;-)   )

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Nuke Sub grounded off Skye UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 07:08 AM

Is it England's way of nuking Scotland :-)