BS: The truth beyond politics is simple

Subject: BS: The truth beyond politics is simple
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 06:17 PM

Before things get too heated or angry reactions to a possible tradgedy gets out of control, the basic facts beyond politics needs to be revisited.

Beyond left or right, beyond needy or greedy, beyond issues and accusations is a simple truth. Its as simple as throwing a huge chunk of meat from a mountaintop and watch various packs of dogs race for their prize. Around election time the meat is money, big money.

Media outlets feast on advertisements. TV channels devoted entirely to politics run ads to influence voters and then re run political ads to amuse their audiences.

Politicians take money from any source unless they are later tricked and disgraced in public. For the best Goverment that money can buy, once elected politicians work three days and then go off to fund raise while the corporations who bought the politician ACTUALLY write the laws for their greatest self interest. (Note you can not bribe a politician - but you can legally buy them unusually cheap)

It is easy to understand why campaign finance reform is less popular than a single payer system is to the CEO of Health Insurance Inc.

Inventions like think tanks, religious political foundations, dedicated news outlets. A population who are thirsty for some understanding will always fall victim to the time tested old school charlatans who braid; religion, race baiting, lies, twisted history, fearful scenarios and Orwellian points of view that favor the corporate Ceasars.

There is no need to be cynical about the outcome, since desperation usually leads people to a promised place with food and water. Even a loyal dog will bite its master if starved or tortured too much.

So if you find yourself lifted by a single speach or rally, or find yourself hyped to the point of violence, remember it is just a money chase. Its not like you win win or lose a lottery to live in a mansion oasis.

..that is unless you are already one of the 74 people in the US who collectively earn more than 19 million people at the bottom of the ladder.

The money can buy wars to make more money, the middle class can make more young to be used as disposable tools for generals. Money can buy privatized islands as in Hawaii and properties that would humble Nero worldwide.

So get a grip on your simple pleasure and bisic truths as this election may prove to be more heated than usual with the extra 2 billion corporate dollars on the line.

Thank you and good night.

Subject: RE: BS: The truth beyond politics is simple
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 06:59 PM

http://usera.imagecave.com/donuel/don/QUESTION-IS.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: The truth beyond politics is simple
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 12:01 AM

Another good one which illustrates your point to a "T," Donuel, thanks.

Did you get a chance to listen to the video Stilly River Sage posted in THIS THREAD? I think you will like the guy's thinking and presentation. Also follow the link I put in following her post..the one about fixing Congress.

Subject: RE: BS: The truth beyond politics is simple
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 12:52 AM

The truth has to be BEYOND politics...it certainly ain't IN politics!
'We hold these truths to be self evident'...!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The truth beyond politics is simple
From: Sawzaw
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 01:22 AM

You are right Donuel but I think people can see through the bullshit if they try.

Like those Infomercials where a guy says "you can make all the money you want if you buy my whatever and follow my instructions."

Diong!

Why isn't this guy following his own unlimited money making plan himself? Why does he go to the trouble and expense making a commercial if he already has a surefire method of making all the money he wants?

Buy these pills and follow this diet and I guarantee you will loose weight.

I am a Nigerian Prince with $12 million dollars in the bank but I need your help to access it.

A little logic is all you need to steer through the piles of crap.

When the propaganda does not work anymore it goes away.

BTW. Did you know most of the postage stamps in Nigeria are counterfeit?

Subject: RE: BS: The truth beyond politics is simple
From: Slag
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 02:48 AM

Yes, like the BS two to three trillion Dollars that has just been added to our national debit. That makes your two billion you mentioned small potatos. Two billion US is 2,000 million, two trillion US is 2,000,000 million. Thanks for the help cutting through the BS.

Subject: RE: BS: The truth beyond politics is simple
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 08:00 AM

Its a simple as predator vs. prey.
The predator has devoured most of the prey.



In a strange twist of events Sarah Palin may be the only person who can speak to the killer predators she and others have wrought in order to simmer things down. Like a shark that goes into a cleaning staion in the sea to have reef fish clean them, Sarah has nothing to lose by calming the waters and everthything to gain.

Subject: RE: BS: The truth beyond politics is simple
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 06:01 PM

Donuel, you remind me of two sayings from a federal judge for whom I worked for 23 years.

Before I get to those sayings, let me tell you about the Judge:

He was the Republican State Chairman in this state in the early 50s, and carried the state for Eisenhower in 1952. This despite the fact that he personally was a Taft Republican--way to the right. On the urging--NAY, the insistence--of both Republican senators, Eisenhower appointed the Judge to the federal district judgeship when it came open 1-1/2 years later. Eisenhower really, really didn't want to appoint him because of his Taft roots, but the pressure from both senators, both from his own Republican party, carried the day after knock-down-drag-out fights in the Senate and in the newspapers.

The Judge was a realist, without any sentimental ideas about the electoral process. The understanding of EVERY event in public life was laid to one thing--money.

When asked, "Why did Congress do such-and-such?" Or "Why is there pressure to clean up the environment?" or--or--(lots of other things)
his standard response was,
(first saying:) "Find the FEE-nance."
In other words, regardless of the high-minded arguments put forward in favor of (or against) the measure, which interests expect to make money out of it down the way? That is the way to understand everything in public life, according to the Judge.

And when the Watergate mess or other dirty tricks were in the news, he informed the listener that
(Second saying:) "Politics is revolution." In other words, if political operatives can't achieve what they really want by normal politicking, they will up the ante to get their way.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: The truth beyond politics is simple
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 06:15 PM

I think you are quite correct, Donuel. It's a big money game, that's all.

I don't let that get me down too much, because I know where my real circle of power lies: it lies in making something fine out of my own life during the short time I am here, giving and receiving genuine love in a variety of ways, as many ways as I can. The same is true for everyone else.

Subject: RE: BS: The truth beyond politics is simple
From: kendall
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 07:59 PM

And how do they get away with it? We put them there!

We are deluded thinking we have a choice, but the truth is, we get to decide which gang self serving liars will do the least damage.

Of the two viable parties, I support the democrats simply because they will throw me half a bone and the republicans will keep the whole damned hog for themselves!

Subject: RE: BS: The truth beyond politics is simple
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 11:18 PM

Oh, I prefer the Democrats to the Republicans too, kendall. Nevertheless, I feel that the game is fixed. It's fixed in Canada also, but some of our political parties are a little less harmful than others when in power...I think....(?) ;-) At any rate, I've stopped letting it deprive me of sleep and ruin my day. I prefer thinking about things I can actually DO something meaningful about, and which are also enjoyable. ;-) Like music, cooking, friends, the birds and the chipmunk, learning new things, my hobbies, good books, etc...

The ruling political system will still be here when I'm dead and gone, and it will still be a bad joke just like it is now. I intend to have a joyful life while I am here regardless of that.

Subject: RE: BS: The truth beyond politics is simple
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 12:40 AM

I support neither..but if I like a particular candidate, I'll vote for them, regardless of party. I'd rather vote for a person in whom I see integrity, even if I disagree with him, than someone who SAYS all the right stuff, but is a flip flopping crackpot politician, for sale!...(which is most of them!)..and I'll vote on the issues that aren't a bunch of double-talk. As it is now, I will not vote for any bozo, who voted for either of the Democrap's giant, and stupid bills, who did NOT even read them! (which means the Dem's House candidates don't get my vote, this time around)...Nor, will I vote for a so called 'representative' who voted party lines, rather than representing the will of the people from his/her district!..and that's the way it's supposed to be! I also check out their voting record. Fuck the 'party line' crap! I want REPRESENTATION of US!

I'll leave the morons to vote for the likes of Nancy 'Let's pass the bill so we can find out what's in it' Pelosi and Reid!..but then, 'Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers!'

BTW, I did NOT vote for McCain nor Obama. I knew they were both full of shit...and, once again, I was right!


GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The truth beyond politics is simple
From: Slag
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 12:51 AM

As I believe I have stated in other places (as it has so many apt applications) every good detective knows that to get to the bottom of things, you follow the money trail. It really is that simple. No matter what it is that the vast majority of people may esteem, it is virtually always money that is perceived as the key that unlocks the door.

I am currently reading Carroll Quiggley's opus "Trajedy and Hope: A History of the World in Our Time". It examines history from 1895 to 1962 from a primarily economic point of view. It's worth a peek!

Gee Unka DaveO! 23 years? Money must have been good, huh?

PS that Taft was a real corker, wasn't he?

Subject: RE: BS: The truth beyond politics is simple
From: kendall
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 04:39 AM

It doesn't matter if a candidate appears to be nice, decent etc. he/she is bound by party politics. To me, saying I vote for the person not the party strikes me as naive.

Every advantage I have had in life has come to me through the democratic party, and I have gotten squat from the republicans. That's what motivates me. We all vote with our wallets and that's why the fat cats vote republican.

Subject: RE: BS: The truth beyond politics is simple
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 10:32 AM

Nancy 'Let's pass the bill so we can find out what's in it' Pelosi

I saw that sound byte... I did NOT see the context or what led up to it or what she followed it with.

Gosh, GfS, if I took a few dozen of YOUR remarks out of context, it could make pretty interesting reading... **grin**

Subject: RE: BS: The truth beyond politics is simple
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 11:20 AM

You take a few dozen of anyone's remarks out of context and you can find enough to crucify them before an assembly of esteemed elders, Bill.

;-D

Subject: RE: BS: The truth beyond politics is simple
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 12:30 PM

Slag asked me:

Gee Unka DaveO! 23 years? Money must have been good, huh?

I'm exceedingly happy to say yes, it was!

And when he died I worked for 13 years more for his successor, too.

As the man said, "Find the FEE-nance!"
Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: The truth beyond politics is simple
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 12:38 PM

Bill D: (the genius) "I saw that sound byte... I did NOT see the context or what led up to it or what she followed it with."

This was what Nancy Pelosi said, just before the vote was taken in the Senate, on the 'health care' bill.

Here's your blithering idiot, herself!

By the way, Do you listen to the news?.....or is it too late past your bedtime?

Your 'speaker' at work!

No wonder you ask such stupid questions!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The truth beyond politics is simple
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 12:58 PM

Interesting post Dave

And lets not forget how media skews things just a touch...
This something you will never see, but it would go something like this

Subject: RE: BS: The truth beyond politics is simple
From: kendall
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 01:04 PM

Fox noise eh? I couldn't hear a word she was saying because of the blatting in the background. Fair and balanced...right to far right.

Subject: RE: BS: The truth beyond politics is simple
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 01:18 PM

actually this is funnier http://usera.imagecave.com/donuel/barak-on-beck.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: The truth beyond politics is simple
From: Stringsinger
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 05:59 PM

It's very faddish to blame all politicians for the money chase. There are those outside of the chase that have ideals and are working to implement them. Politics is a fact of life and pervades all occupations including politics. There are always those who set greed and personal self-aggrandizement ahead of ideals everywhere. But the best of society is enhanced by those working in government who have a moral compass and a sense of right and wrong that precludes the money chase.

Unfortunately, the Libertarian cynicism has entered the political arena making government the scapegoat. Government is only as good as the people who participate in it and although today special interests and corporations call the shots, there are still those in government who have a bigger and better picture as to what government can be. There are also those in government today who want to destroy US government and trash the Constitution. They do this in devious ways such as claiming to be experts in Constitutional law as in denying that there is a Separation of Church and State historically and unequivocally cemented by the Founding Fathers who feared a US Theocracy.

The truth beyond much politics today is simplistic (or simple mindedness). Any "truth" that vitiates the role of a decent US government is pure propaganda. The true patriot is one who recognizes the flaws in government, has the temerity to speak out about it,
and is willing to sacrifice to change it.

Libertarians don't address this at all. They are in complete political denial.

Subject: RE: BS: The truth beyond politics is simple
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 06:50 PM

The money chase is at the behest of those who are really in charge.
I DO NOT BLAME OR CLAIM THE POLITICIANS ARE AT FAULT.
tHE cORPORATIONS HAVE KNOWN FOR 100S OF YEARS THAT A DUMB POLITICIAN IS BEST SUITED TO THEIR PURPOSE.

All those caps were an accident but it goes to show how often I look up.

Subject: RE: BS: The truth beyond politics is simple
From: Slag
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 06:58 PM

kendall, Amigo! I hate to tell you this but everything you "got" from the Democrts you also got from the Republicans, the Mormons, the Peace and Freedom party and anyone else who pays taxes. Well, you are very welcome, sir. And I was glad that I could help!

I don't really look to get anything, any personal benefit, from the government unless I have earned it from the government. The fact of the matter is, I have worked for the government so what I get, I earned as per contract. If I were put in need, I might consider using an entitlement but only because I have paid into the programs for a lifetime. I think of it as a sort of insurance. If you are needy or perhaps just greedy you "get" stuff from the government.

And while I am on it, as I demonstrated above WE ARE the GOVERNMENT! Now I know what you mean. The Deomcrats have had some very creative ideas on how to spend other people's money and for just the cost of a few dollars to them they can put a few cents of OPM into YOUR pocket. Conservatives tend, or used to tend, to developing ideas that would let you earn money, for instance, Eisenhower's Interstate Highway system. That really put Americans to work. And I will hail Kennedy's race to the Moon as another great project. Contrat that with Johnson's "Great Society" which was, by and large, a dismal failure. It may have been well-intended, but a failure in the end.

If some are out to get something for nothing and at the expense of other folks it can only hurt the nation.

PS kendall, you know I am just talking in general terms and not to you directly although I used your statement as a launching point for my little tirade. I know that often people or groups of people have had circumstances pressed upon them thorugh no fault of their own and the government has been non-responsive or even hostile to the injustices those conditions present and that far, I will wholeheartedly agree with you. Shame on either or both houses that will not genuinely care for the people and suppoert the general welfare of ALL the folks. But in general, folks ought to do for themselves if they can.

Subject: RE: BS: The truth beyond politics is simple
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 07:36 PM

Well said, Slag!! I think that people tend to forget, that our INALIENABLE RIGHTS, spoken of in our Constitution, are endowed to us, from 'our Creator'.....not by 'allowance' or metering out by the Federal Government, at their convenience, or willingness to control. Somehow, the so-called 'liberals' have abandoned that idea, and want EVERYTHING under the Central government's Big Brother control. This is NOT freedom!

That being said, if the Federal Government wants to 'control something, how about enforcing the laws and statutes, enacted to refrain corporations from the abuse on us citizens...and not granting favorable tax breaks to ship our manufacturing overseas...then raising our individual taxes to make up for it. This is entirely wrong!..and then they pay off both sides to look the other way!....but I think we have to come to grips with the fact, that on one side of the aisle we have 'globalists' and the other side 'socialists'. I'd like to see them have concern for American citizens instead!..as citizens, rather than votes, consumers, numbers, comrades, or obstacles for their ideologies, however failed, or ill conceived!

Is it coming to the point where the Central Federal Government is at odds with 'WE THE PEOPLE"..the true Constitutional government????...and, as seen by the last few years, both sides have been ruling AGAINST the will of the people! This SHOULD FINALLY be obvious, by this year's re-action, in the mid-term elections! However, it looks like jumping from the frying pan, into the fire, then back again! In any event, we're all out to get burnt!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The truth beyond politics is simple
From: kendall
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 07:45 PM

And now for the rest of the story.
I was born in the middle of the great depression. My Father had a very good job but when the economy shit the bed he lost it. He hit the bottle and became a drunk. My Mother had to ask for help to finish raising 5 of us. Thank God and the State of Maine for Aid to dependent children. She also worked as a fish packer to keep us together.
Because of that help I was able to stay in school instead of being forced to quit and take some menial dead end job to help the family. I was able to graduate high school and in time went off to college.
Without that government help I would have been no more than a clam digger or ditch digger.
And, as a result of that help I was able to get a very good job at which I paid far more back in income taxes than the state ever paid out for my support.

Education is not an expense, it is an investment. As the saying goes, If you think education is expensive, consider ignorance.

Do you seriously think that the republicans would ever have given the working man any benefits such as Social Security, minimum wage, Medicare, workplace safety or child labor laws?

I live on a government pension and without Social security and Medicare I would be screwed.

I saw many kids like me who didn't have an intelligent Mother that never amounted to a hill of beans. I never went to bed hungry, but by God, they did.

Capitalism has failed over and over again so don't preach to me about the evils of socialism.

I recall what FDR said about the depression..."The republicans say the economy will recover in the long run, but, people don't EAT in the long run."

I know you are not looking to zero in on me personally, and I'm glad because I can get very rasty on this subject.

Subject: RE: BS: The truth beyond politics is simple
From: kendall
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 07:48 PM

Would one of you right wingers explain the difference between Tax and spend democrats and BORROW and spend republicans?

Subject: RE: BS: The truth beyond politics is simple
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 08:00 PM

The whole society is based upon borrowing and spending....deficit financing...buying stuff today that you can't afford and hoping maybe you can pay for it next month...or next year....maybe never!

That's not just the government and the business world, that's also the citizenry!

And you see where it's gotten the country, don't you?

The entire public are constantly encouraged to be irresponsible with money and to buy on credit. That's supposed to be what will keep the wheels of capitalism turning. Well, it's dishonest, it's selfish, it's foolish, it's reckless, and it's irresponsible. Why would the American public bitch and complain so much about the government doing it when so many of them are eager to do it themselves? ;-)

Kind of ironic, I think. The pot is calling the kettle black. I guess the pot has been boiling so hard for so long that it's running out of water now, and it thinks the kettle might still have some!

Subject: RE: BS: The truth beyond politics is simple
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 08:05 PM

**sneaking in after a long day in the shop**

I see GfS has shown me a clear presentation of Pelosi's positions....as filtered thru Faux News editing. As a matter of fact, I don't think she is the worlds' best speaker, but I don't base by opinions on clips edited for the most awkward sound bytes.

What I DO know is that she is so far preferable to the prospect of listening to John Boehner that I'd almost rather have Newt back.

Subject: RE: BS: The truth beyond politics is simple
From: curmudgeon
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 08:05 PM

",,,our INALIENABLE RIGHTS, spoken of in our Constitution, are endowed to us, from 'our Creator'." This is from the Declaration of Independence.
The Constitution, however, does require the government to "...promote the general Welfare"

Subject: RE: BS: The truth beyond politics is simple
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 08:24 PM

Right on the money, Kendall!

I was there. My mother rode herd on my sisters and me and managed to feed us all with a few inexpensive ingredients and her creativity, while my father, a professional man unable to follow his profession at the time due to circumstances, worked like a dog, often having to do such things as road construction under the WPA (a program not favored by the Republicans). Pick and shovel work, but it put food on the table.

We were damned close to the edge most of the time, but my sisters and I never ever worried or felt like we were "poor."

I'm a bit appalled at the current situation and its similarity to previous events. And the similarity of the causes.

Reagan, et al, managed to rescind many of the regulations that FDR instituted, turning the same culprits loose. And here we are!

Quelle suprise!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: The truth beyond politics is simple
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 10:01 PM

Good and great thoughts here.


--------------------------------------
Looking ahead

Coming soon will be a Republican push to shut down the goverment and without a single compromise allow the most harm to come to America as possible...all for political gain. Inaction and obstruction have been the key so far. Action of the Gingrich kind to shut down the goverment will be far worse than last time. This time they have a network called FOX and a unlimited Corporate account to draw upon.

The single minded target is 2012 aimed squarely at The President's political demise. Everything else be damned.

Yes there will be natural disasters in the meantime, sad fortunes of war and personal loss beyond words while goverment shut downs and waves of disrespectful acts abound. IT may border on domestic acts of war.

A house divided against itself is the best America's enemies can hope for.

How the Corporations think they will win greater profits in such times is nothing but a shared delusion among masters of greed.
Corporate fascism in a nation where most people watch dancing with the stars may work for awhile but not as well as viable middle class consumers.

The really big "captains" of industry and finance feel secure that they can follow investments globally no matter how badly America decays. Great wealth makes you think you can always jump ship and catch a ride on a faster nicer boat. The Titanic taught a different lesson.

I only hope they, the Uberwealthy, are not correct. If they continue to sacrifice this nation for their schemes I would happily drill a hole in their lifeboat just when they think they can abandon their mess and sail away.

Subject: RE: BS: The truth beyond politics is simple
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 11:00 PM

Simple as the mean MEaning of Life.

Subject: RE: BS: The truth beyond politics is simple
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 01:03 AM

Donuel: "A house divided against itself is the best America's enemies can hope for."

Spot on, Donuel!!!....What people don't see, is that enemy is working from within!...and through both parties!..but we are guilty, too as stated by Little Hawk......


....Little Hawk: "The whole society is based upon borrowing and spending....deficit financing...buying stuff today that you can't afford and hoping maybe you can pay for it next month...or next year....maybe never!
That's not just the government and the business world, that's also the citizenry!
And you see where it's gotten the country, don't you?
The entire public are constantly encouraged to be irresponsible with money and to buy on credit."

Added to that, my assertion that corruption between major corporations, and our government, has spun out of its own controls, and they are fleecing the public to the last drop..until we are fighting amongst ourselves....even about whose fault is is. The right says the left, the left says the right...which is grasping at straws for the final DISTRACTION, from being United as a country!!

Here, you want to know the REAL news??....Not found on any networks(yet?)....China is pissed off at us and our 'bookkeeping' dilemma, and putting sanctions on us, including the imports of certain metals and metal products. They are also making demands, including some land stuff(more details as I get clarification) justifying it with the 'news' that we cannot be trusted, with our debts, and corruption in manipulating our currency!.....All while we are bullshitting about all this self indulgent political crap...when it is obvious to them(as it should be to you, by now), that the whole of the body politic, is 'unreliable'(their words). They can deep water drill in our waters, as we shut ours down!..Guess why?..Forget what you've been told...it wasn't meant to inform you, anyway!

Now, is that right or left wing????...Neither!!!...and to re-cap..

Donuel: "A house divided against itself is the best America's enemies can hope for."

In your glassy eyed 'idealism' you think, "No, the Chinese aren't our enemies".....While the Chinese don't see it that way, and instead, are thinking, "Look at all that fertile land, to feed........"

Happy Politics!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The truth beyond politics is simple
From: Slag
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 03:08 AM

Yea, kendal, et al. I was not beating the Republican drum if you will notice. The legislation for social security and many other programs were not passed in a vaccuum. As I recall, some of you Children of the Sixties were very quick to point out the injustice of stereotyping. There are folks of different political stripe who still have a heart. In many instances the social legislation would never have been passed without agreement from all quarters.

Also, I won't apologize for having a father who was sober, sober-minded and was married to the same woman for sixty-two years until his death. He provided for his family and was a devout follower of Jesus Christ. I'm sorry that so many have not had the same or similar fortune and you have every reason to have pride in your own tenacity and ability to make well on your own. And I would bet that you have, on the whole, done right by your own families. I hope you have. Point here is that no one of any character wants to see others do badly in life's game. Americans are the "helpingest" people in the world and that include Americans of every political persuasion. And when push comes to shove, most of us have the gumption to cover each other's backside. The damn political bickering and refusal to see both sides or ALL side will tear us apart if we continue in it.

I hang out here because I really like the music but I hang out below the line a lot because I really like the people. That's you all. I also would like to pry loose your deathgrip on your bias so you could see the whole pattern that is woven into the tapestry of our nation. It isn't just left, it isn't just right. It takes both to make it work.

Subject: RE: BS: The truth beyond politics is simple
From: kendall
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 08:05 AM

Slag, I never let my family down. Ask Becca72.

My Father, ah yes, another old saying:
"No man ever need be a total failure, he can always serve as a bad example."
My Mother was tougher than Japanese algebra, a republican, and like most people of her day, never bought anything on time. My Grandfather used to say, "If you can't pay for it, you don't need it."

I am a Liberal, but also a fiscal conservative. I don't spend money that I don't have to buy things I don't need just to impress people I don't even like.

Too many people today want all the perks and bennies of our government, but they don't want to pay for them! There are two choices, taxes and borrowing. Bush started two wars with no way to pay for them except to borrow, and no exit strategy. Now, millions want to put that type of half wit back in power! We get what we deserve.

Subject: RE: BS: The truth beyond politics is simple
From: freda underhill
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 09:36 AM

the truth beyond politics is simple

Subject: RE: BS: The truth beyond politics is simple
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 10:37 AM

I'm with Kendall (above) about the silly idea of "voting for the man (woman), not the party"!

No holder of a significant office is an individual. (S)he is a group of relationships and obligations. (S)he "owes" people who contributed to the cost of the campaign if it's an elected office; (S)he "owes" the particular part of the electorate who voted for him/her or the official or body who appointed him/her; (S)he has to think about pleasing those who may help with campaign finance in the future; (S)he has to think about pleasing those who may be induced to vote for or reappoint him/her in the future.

Then too, (s)he has to have a staff, who will have heavy input into both the perception of factual basis for official actions and the conversion of his/her perceived facts into policies. That staff will likely be picked from or with the influence of a body of like-minded people on public policy (what we call--Surprise!--a party).

If the official is a legislator, then (s)he has to work within the organizational setup of his/her legislative body, and realistically speaking that means maintaining relationships with like-minded groups of legislators, and party affiliation is the relation-organizing mechanism. If the official is a mayor, or a governor, or the President of the United States, (s)he has to seek support and consider the positions of groups in the relevant legislative body for his/her governmental unit in order to get things done. And that is done largely through the relationships of--Surprise again!--a party.

No matter how respectable or how good his character or judgment might be (or seem), no significant public officer exercises his/her public functions based merely on what his/her outlook or druthers might have been were he/she merely a member of the public. In order to (hopefully) predict what a prospective officeholder might do if elected or appointed, it is necessary to see him/her as a composite creature, reflecting all the debts, obligations, associations, friendships, and other relationships he/she would bring to the office or would find there.

"I just vote for the maaaaaaaan"?   Ridiculous.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: The truth beyond politics is simple
From: kendall
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 12:06 PM

They carry naive to extremes.

Subject: RE: BS: The truth beyond politics is simple
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 12:28 PM

I agree that your vote is for a host if interlocked interests, but there ARE instances of individual politicians who managed to be fairly independent and make progress and reform their major concerns.
   Remember that the infamous Joe McCarthy was replaced when he died by William Proxmire, who became one of the most honest and hard working Senators in history.

"Proxmire holds the U.S. Senate record for consecutive roll call votes cast: 10,252 between April 20, 1966 and October 18, 1988. "


"In his last two Senate campaigns of 1976 and 1982, Proxmire refused to take any campaign contributions, and on each spent less than $200 out of his own pocket — to cover the expenses related to filing for re-election and return postage for unsolicited contributions. He was an early advocate of campaign finance reform."

I could add others, but suffice it to say that there ARE some folks in office who struggle to do things right.

Subject: RE: BS: The truth beyond politics is simple
From: Slag
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 07:07 PM

Yes, excellent point Bill_D. There are some individuals who who do seem to be able to put their individual stamp on things and make the difference. I think that is what folks who vote the man are hoping for. It is amazing that regardless of which captiain of state takes the helm things end up looking pretty much the same with a few notable exceptions. The leadership does tend to reflect the mood of the country.

While I may not agree with your blanket dismisal of Bush, kendall, I agree we don't need him back in office. And I don't see anyone in the wings on the "R" side of things that looks very promising.

And too, I have to agree with Unka DaveO, not only do you NOT vote in an individual, you don't WANT to vote in an individual. Ideally, you want to put a team in place that will have the collective ability to accomplish the measures for which they were elected as well as handle the day to day functioning of the government.

But as to Donuel's original idea, the bottom line is just that, the bottom line: It begins with "m" ends in "y" and there is only "one" in the middle.