BS: Big cats in Britain

Subject: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 11:14 AM

Recently I moved down to the sleepy village of Crossways in Dorset - between Dorchester and Weymouth. Little did I realise that Crossways is regarded as a hotspot for sightings of a creature that has been dubbed variously The Beast of Bockhampton or The Crossways Cat.

I have not seen it YET. However I have written two songs about it, this one:-

http://www.myspace.com/music/15033392/songs/75285670

and this one:-

http://www.myspace.com/music/15033392/songs/76081185

Does anyone else have these creatures as neighbours? Some friends of mine saw The Beast of Bodmin when they were doing the South West Coastal path walk, but I am eager with anticipation of my first sighting. Has anyone else written songs about these exotic creatures?

Big Al

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 11:22 AM

You can start this thread without the "BS" label, above the line where your songs are more likely to be respected as such.

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 11:34 AM

No I'm more interested in hearing about big cats than anyone listening to the songs. The music is just by the by.

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 11:45 AM

Thanks for your concern though Jack. We agreed years that I don't sing real folk music.

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 12:11 PM

It's a funny one. I'd love to (if I could persuade it not to eat me!) bump into Bagheera.

Not really convinced though - I wonder how much food a big cat would need and where they get it.

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 12:13 PM

Sorry I can't help you with the big cat thought to be in your area, but I do have something to contribute.

A couple years ago I attended a lecture by a scientist from the Missouri Department of Conservation. He said that almost always when a big cat is sighted near human settlement, it has been abandoned by someone who foolishly thought such an animal would make a good pet.

Most of the time their claws have been removed and their teeth filed. They don't know how to hunt, and the animal is doomed to starve. Any sightings should be reported to the authorities.

Of course, in certain parts of the US or Canada, a big cat might be a wild animal, but not in England.

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 12:18 PM

Your stuff may not be folk, Al, but it is good!

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 12:48 PM

'I wonder how much food a big cat would need and where they get it.'

Well theres a lots of rabbits, and theres lots of deer. A bloke was telling me down at The Sailors Return in Weymouth that there are too many deer at the moment. There a time when hunters had to hunt around for them, but currently they are all over the place. And you DO go through periods where you are seeing lots of deer.

You see the army has a lot of land round here for shooting ranges and of course - ordinary folk have to stay off it. So the animals have large safe areas - because the soldiers aren't shooting at them.

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 01:00 PM

Does that make them more or less safe? It's sort of like "military intelligence", no?

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 01:15 PM

Well judging from the numbers of the deer, I reckon they must be pretty safe - and as a consequence the big cat's food supply.

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 01:23 PM

There is one near my old village in Rutland, known locally as The Beast of Braunston. The local brewery even has a mild ale called Rutland Panther. One of my neighbours, a very sensible, no-nonsense WI type of lady, was absolutely convinced she'd seen it. She was on the phone at the time, and described to her friend exactly what she was seeing as she watched it cross a neighbouring field.

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 01:34 PM

I'm in no way arguing with Al's comments to me and don't want what follows read that way but round here...

a terrible dog

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 01:40 PM

Now that you've let the cat out of the bag Al, someone will shoot it for a trophy.

Try to persuade it into your garden (a tethered deer should do) then sell the shooting rights to someone.

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: mandotim
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 01:43 PM

There is at least one large cat living in the Staffordshire Moorlands, with lots of sightings, evidence of tracks and a number of confirmed kills of sheep and assorted wild animals. After the legislation (in the 1980s I think) banning the keeping of such animals without an expensive license and much regulation, a lot of large cats were quietly released into the wild. Nature suggests that cats with an enormous territorial range will eventually meet and breed, and it is believed that there are several breeding populations in the UK. In North Staffordshire there are large tracts of remote open land, with cover proved by managed forestry. There are a lot of sheep, deer, rabbits and (honestly!) wallabies.
I'm normally sceptical about such things, but an odd event one early morning a couple of years ago made me delve more deeply. I was driving across the moors from home to Sheffield where I work. A large, light tan coloured animal climbed over a wall in front of me, ran across the road and climbed swiftly up the wall on the other side. It was the size of a large dog, with a long tail and a small, blunt head. I have pet dogs and cats, and this didn't move anything like a dog. I believe it was a big cat, and I was no more than thirty yards away when it disappeared from view behind the wall. I watched it head across a field and out of sight behind another wall.
There have been regular sightings for at least 20 years in the area, which suggests this may well be at least a second generation animal (it certainly didn't move like an old cat!).
Tim (not as sceptical as I was).

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: Greg F.
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 02:06 PM

With the Noxious Animals Act in force, plus the Rabies quarintine laws & etc. how did an non-native invasive species get brought into the British Isles unbeknownst?

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 02:20 PM

Even if all regulated, I don't think an "exotic pet" getting in and getting released is an impossibility. People (called illegal immigrants) do and drugs do...

Whether one might notice say the drop in sheep if it was released is something I question.

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 02:28 PM

Ring-necked Parakeets are now commonplace and breeding in South East England - why not other animals?

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 03:19 PM

Black greyhounds are often mistaken for big cats...especially at full stride.

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 03:24 PM

Happened in Ohio, back in the '70s, about 40 miles south of Cleveland:

"Officer, there's a dead black bear on State Route 42 right about mile marker 157."

"There are NO black bears in Ohio. None."

Sometime later:

"Officer, loaded the dead non-existent black bear into my pickup and dropped it off in your police station parking lot. Bye."

Later the same day:

"Yes indeed, we folks from the Ohio Department of Natural Resource do certify that the Ohio State Patrol does indeed have a dead black bear in the parking lot of its Ravenna station. Probably wandered off from the herd over in Pennsylvania."

"Well, get rid of it, will you? We've got police work to do."

"Sorry, but our job is done. We don't get rid of dead animals; that's the job of the Ohio State Patrol."

"Aw, SHIT!!!"

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 07:06 PM

Tonight on PRI's The World there was a story about the wildcats in Scotland. Here's a link to the story reported by Ari Daniel Shapiro.

Here's a good look at one, and I was going to look this up when I got home today anyway, even without your thread. They described them has having a tail that on a domestic cat would get puffed out when they're angry. On the wild cat the tail is always looking puffy.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 07:06 PM

So Jon - you think the cats are supernatural and they only appear on ley lines.

To be honest I've heard all sorts of stuff since I started reading about this. Some people are convinced there is a breed of cats out there that have concealed themselves since prehistoric times.

Personally I simply don't know. You get people who have lived next to Cannock chase all their lives, and they insist that theres no wallabies. But I reckon they must be there somewhere.

As Terribus said on another thread - just cos you don't see them - it doesn't mean there not there, After all you don't see hedgehogs every five minutes in the ordinary way of things.

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 07:08 PM

It also doesn't mean that they are there.

It's a verdict of "Not Proven."

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 07:13 PM

So lets just say they are there. What would you have to do to prove their existence?

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: Tootler
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 07:27 PM

The Scottish Wildcat is a definite species of cat. They are rare in the wild, but there are some in captivity. I saw one a couple of years ago when I visited the New Forest Wildlife Park.

There were persistent reports of a Panther in County Durham some years ago but I have not heard anything recently so it has either died or never existed. Although there is good reason to be skeptical about some of the reports of big cats in the wild in the UK, they cannot be completely discounted. The reports keep cropping up and tend to be persistent, which suggest there is likely something in them.

There are wallabies living in Derbyshire. They were released from a private zoo in the 1930's and have continued to survive. There is a report of a sighting this year on this site:

http://www.roaches.org.uk/wallabies.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 07:54 PM

So Jon - you think the cats are supernatural and they only appear on ley lines.

I'd hoped the way I'd posted would have avoided that question and tried to take your comments on the Deer herds in Devon and the army land on board.

I remain sceptical - but no, if a big cat exists, I think it will be real flesh and blood.

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 09:33 PM

The deer aren't actually herding animals like you see on toffs estates like the Duke of Devonshire in Chatsworth.

The most I've seen togther was just at the top of the road where I live - four of them together - about 2a.m.

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Oct 10 - 09:57 PM

To prove it?

Recognized tracks, proven scat (including DNA analysis), tuft of hair snagged on briars or a fence (ditto), a carcass...all of the stuff that Illinois Fish & Game has had shown to them but which they still deny as proving there are real cougars in Illinois.

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 01:01 AM

Reports of sightings of cougars in Kansas have persisted for about the past hundred years, with NO CONFIRMED EVIDENCE that any were in the state. They have been known to be present in adjacent states.

Quite recently, approximately the past two years, there have been at least a couple of confirmed reports, based on carcasses, clear photographs, scat, tracks, hair DNA and all the other "necessary" proofs. One or two other reports are listed as "probably" cougars, with very strong but not conclusive evidence.

(One report, previously in the "possible/probable" category was shown to have been based mainly on scat from a zoo placed by a couple of frat rats.)

Armadillos, previously unknown in Kansas and somewhat rare in northern Oklahoma now are visibly plentiful throughout both states. (Texas, where they come from, says they're all Democrats that were expelled for "religious reasons.")

There are a few rather large domestic cats in the US, although the "longest cat" title previously held by a Maine Coon up north has now been awarded to a critter down south in Nevada. (The new champ won by 1/2 inch.)

There are NO SCORPIONS in Kansas - except at the favorite tourist spot called "Coronado Heights" where a couple were believed to have escaped from a tourist's car sometime back in the '40s. Eradication attempts have been unsuccessful since, although they appear not to have migrated away from the "peak."

Although frequently reported, there have been only two confirmed sightings of true "water moccasins" in Kansas. One was during a major flood, when the snake possibly washed/swam up from Oklahoma, ca. 1898. The other, unfortunately, was during quite recent "normal weather" and appeared to feel quite at home, so maybe it too was a liberal that got run out of Oklahoma or Arkansas where they (the snakes - not liberals) are common.

On my trip today across the short way in Wichita, I saw two road-kill deer, two squashed racoons, and one flat 'possum. One deer was at the marked "deer crossing" at the entrance drive to the north Home Depot, 50 yards from the limited access Hwy 96, but the other was pretty much "right down town." But all those are plentiful native species.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: mandotim
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 01:27 AM

Tootler; the wallabies live on and around a rock formation called the Roaches (or sometimes 'Roches'). It's in Staffordshire, not Derbyshire.

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 03:56 AM

If pet alligators or crocs can be flushed down the toilet into the sewage system it might not be so impossible. People can abandon domesticated pets when they tire of them so there is every possibility that a large wild cat is going to be too much for some owners (they shouldn't have owners but there you are) to handle.

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 05:09 AM

There was a sighting about six years ago in Hainford, Norfolk. (In a field behind my former house, though I didn't see the animal myself) It was definitely a cat, black with a very long tail, and about as large as an Alsatian dog. It was trying to catch a pheasant. This was in broad daylight. Big black cats have often been seen in Norfolk. It's thought they are escapees from private zoos, or even illicit 'pets' chucked out, poor things, when they get beyond the cute kitten stage. It sounds to me like a puma (either the same one, or a pair) There are loads of rabbits, muntjacs, fallow deer etc for food. I'm not afraid of meeting one, they're very timid and wouldn't attack a human, just slink away. Some daft people in other areas mount an assassination posse, with shotguns, and try to find and kill them. I suppose some folk just enjoy exterminating wildlife!

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: Penny S.
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 06:12 AM

There was supposed to be one around Bluewater, on the edge of the London conurbation, but with access to countryside and rabbit. Never saw it when I lived there, not even on night walks in the country park counting glowworms.

There is supposed to be one lurking around the Crystal Palace area in South London, spotted by someone out for a night run. No obvious food sources, and lots of people around at all hours. My friend also runs in the area, and would very much like to see it if it exists. (He was taught what to do if meeting one when he was in California.)

I'm not impressed by the idea that they have been around since prehistoric times, and are the source of the black dog stories. (And one summer I went for night walks around the cliffs near Sheringham - not a woof.) (I didn't know that was where, or maybe I wouldn't have walked there!) Britain has had a managed landscape, at least in the south, time out of mind. People tended to know what was on their patch, and the differences between cats and dogs. I think people now tend to underrate people in the past, and to assume that because they don't have access to places now, there was none in the past. Imagine what gamekeepers would do, and tell, if big cats were about.

If they are round now, it's recent.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 07:29 AM

I saw a big cat the other day. I reckon it was a feral "domestic" cat that had got big on good food and exercise, but it WAS big.

My greyhound had a rather large steamer just afterwards....

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 08:14 AM

A few years ago there was a news item about a large cat in the wild in Wales that had DNA unrelated to a domestic cat although it was similarly proportioned and I think that it was black and white.

Also, all those folklore headless dogs could be sightings of large cats, which carry the head low and not upright where an unsupecting observer might expect to see the head.

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 08:41 AM

Puts me in mind of The Hound Of The Baskervilles

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 01:12 PM

"Reports of sightings of cougars in Kansas have persisted for about the past hundred years, with NO CONFIRMED EVIDENCE that any were in the state. They have been known to be present in adjacent states."

Hey, John, I have a friend in Tonganoxie who found a gutted calf in her field (this was maybe 10 years ago). She called the wildlife officer, and he said there was a pair of cougars that lived near *)^%$$ Park (info encrypted to protect the animals) and they roamed for many miles in search of food.

I believe she also saw a pawprint in mud, but I'm not sure now.

I call that confirmed evidence. I wonder if the cougars have survived since then.
=========
A wild animal which can hunt deer, rabbits, etc is one thing.

An abandoned animal which has lost claws and fangs and does not know how to hunt is another. It is suffering. It's also very dangerous. In its desperate hunger it might attack a person, especially a child.

Every report should be taken seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: alanabit
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 04:18 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: Greg F. - PM
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 08:41 AM

"Puts me in mind of The Hound Of The Baskervilles"

The legend, common in various forms throughout the British Isles of "The Old Black Dog", was indeed one of the triggers for Conan Doyle's famous story!

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: alanabit
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 04:20 PM

I should add that my brother, who lives just up the coast from Looe, in Cornwall, told me that he saw a large cat in the woods opposite Millendreath. A large cat has been reported in Cornwall by several people and is known as "The Beast of Bodmin". I would prefer not to offer an opinion on the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 09:31 PM

Here is a group of people interested in hearing about your big cat experiences
http://britishbigcats.blogspot.com/2010/09/reports-of-panther-type-cat-roaming.html

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 02:58 PM

Wouldn't it be great if it were supernatural, and all these people were having a psychic experience?

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 03:25 PM

Funny thing AL is that my own beliefs do include some form of supernatural god type creature that I do not understand.

Cat one, I think if exists is a rather more "down to earth" being.

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: GUEST,Alan whittle
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 04:07 PM

They always we're a secular nation, but I think a lot of people would like a glimpse of the almighty's nightie - ghost dogs, phantom cats, whatever....bring it on!

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 04:22 PM

Hi Al
How's your missus?

I thought from the title, you were on about Tony Blair and Gordon Brown!!!!!!

Les

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: Cats
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 05:31 PM

where I live is also a hot spot for Big Cat sightings and the post office at Minions has a book for local sightings to be recorded. there have been 4 sightings in my hamlet and the village including 2 in the lane where i live

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 06:22 PM

Just yesterday I was talking to a bloke who lives in rural Lancashire. He was telling me that he and his best mate had both been interested in wildlife since childhood. One day his mate told him that he had seen a black panther in the headlights of his car and asked him not to tell anyone because he thought that he wouldn't be believed. So the bloke rang the local paper who demanded that the mate give an interview about it. With friends like that ...!

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: olddude
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 06:29 PM

Just had a show on the TV about the beast of Dunnmore (sp)? I think that is what they called it ... Anyway they found shredded up sheep and a video of some large creature running in the forest ... The best guess is a panther or lion ... like in America these things get loose, people have them as pets although illegal and they escape, or get out of a zoo during the hurricane etc ...

I bet you are right

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 08:34 PM

Well that's okay, but its a bit prosaic.

I prefer the supernatural cat. he jumps out of a bush and bites you on the bum. They rush you the hospital, but because it was a phantom - there are no discernible bite marks - but you can still feel his teeth in you.

AND when he's bitten you on the tush, then he has the power to pursue you through your dreams, like Nightmare on Elm Street.

My wife's okay, Les, I'm in the wars. I got soaked to the skin hanging round to go onstage at the wettest folk festival in history. that was two months ago - I'd just got round to doing some bookings round here. I had to cancel three. Still feeling dodgy. I think I'm too old for all this nonsense.

The problem with the real cat is that you have to find evidence, and fart around like David Attenborough. With a supernatural cat, you have none of that bollocks. Its just a matter of faith. if the Pope can pull it off and all these Muslims, Hindus, Conservatives and Socialists - I'm damned sure the Crossways Cat has a lot more charisma, and sometimes he puts in an appearance.

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 12:28 AM

I really enjoyed your songs, Al, AND learning about the Scottish Highland Cats...they have their own channel on youtuube! I hope they keep protecting them. There is a short video HERE of a mother and kittens.

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 30 Oct 10 - 12:59 AM

Thanks kat. I believe it is supposed to be "untameable".

And I know what a just ordinary feral kitten can do. Poor old Delia who fell victim to a dog was sickly when we rescued her but still like lightening got me when I first tried to stroke her. She did become a friend though and (while I'm sure we gave her a short time of good quality she would not have had) still feel some sadness.

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: keberoxu
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 12:47 PM

The National Geographic Photo Ark project
includes the Scottish Wildcat -- check out this pair of kittens

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: Senoufou
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 01:35 PM

In East Anglia, we have 'Black Shuck', a huge spectral dog which haunts unwary travellers at night, and has done for centuries.

Bungay in Suffolk have incorporated it in their coat-of-arms, and Bungay FC are called the 'Black Dogs'. Their team's badge has a very fierce image of the thing, with bolts of lightning underneath.

I wonder if this Black Shuck has been a collection of pumas all along?
If people in the past caught sight of a large black beast with a long tail, they'd imagine it to be a dog (they were familiar with dogs) rather than a large cat (which they would discount as not native)

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 01:59 PM

"phantom dogs" listed here sen with no clear origin. (including shuck who I think I linked to before).

Also unsure of mistaking "dog features" with "cat features" myself except a (never enocountered") hyena can look a bit of both to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: Senoufou
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 03:01 PM

That's true I suppose Jon. Pumas have very flat faces, whereas a dog has a definite snout.

I wonder if, since wolves lived in Britain up until the mid eighteenth century, people were very frightened of them and if one was spotted, a 'legend' might have developed around it?

The 'big cat' in Hainford was spotted by some people sitting outside the Chequers pub. Maybe they'd had a little too much Old Speckled Hen?

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: Jos
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 03:27 PM

"Also, all those folklore headless dogs..." [28 Oct 10 - 08:14 AM]

The scary part of a dog is its angry mouthful of teeth, so a headless dog doesn't quite have what it takes.

Subject: RE: BS: Big cats in Britain
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Oct 18 - 06:06 PM

The thing is if it didn't have a head, it wouldn't have an orifice in which to insert the Kennomeat. So there wouldn't be any need to carry round plastic bags for the phantom poo.

I reckon if you could breed such a dog - even on a different psychic dimension - you would sell loads of them.