Origins: There Is a Tavern in the Town

Subject: RE: Origins: There Is a Tavern in the Town
From: GUEST,Mr. Ludy Marvin Wilkie
Date: 30 Mar 12 - 02:43 PM

What puzzles me is that M. Witmark & Sons had a copyright on the song dated MCMXXXIV--which, I believe, translates into
1934.   It is found in a book SONG SESSION, Community Song Book, published by Remick Music Corp, New York MCMLIII
Yet the Tavern in the Town song is apparently an old British song.    Does anyone know the explanation?
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Subject: RE: Origins: There Is a Tavern in the Town
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Mar 12 - 03:10 PM

There is nothing to prevent a later author from placing copyright on his version.
The musical scores in the book 'SONG SESSION' are copyright as of the date of publication (or specific dates for songs whose scores are copied in the book).

The song may be descended from "an old British song," but later versions are eligible for copyright. Certainly the song as sung by Rudy Vallee and others in the 1930s varies from previous related works, and is copyright. Others also may be copyright if they differ, partly or wholly, in lyrics and/or melody.

Subject: RE: Origins: There Is a Tavern in the Town
From: GUEST,Ludy M. Wilkie
Date: 31 Mar 12 - 10:31 AM

Thanks,

I notice a version listed in a Dover songbook and others claim to be traditional.
I guess the thing to do is to find pre-1923 versions and use them.   I used the tune and a line or so of the lyrics in a play I wrote.. . but added some original material.
Thanks,
Mr. Ludy M. Wilkie
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Subject: RE: Origins: There Is a Tavern in the Town
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Mar 12 - 03:17 PM

Late answer to a query by Charley about the "turtle dove carved on the breast."

Looking through a cemetary, I saw a number of graves with tombstones at the head, and small stones at the foot, and a slab of stone covering the coffin area. The slan often had a carving, at about breast height, of flowers, a short saying, or just a design. These stones were from the early 20th C. Didn't see a turtle dove.

Subject: RE: Origins: There Is a Tavern in the Town
From: GUEST,EJP
Date: 06 Sep 15 - 08:48 AM

Re the line "Oh woe is me, he pinned a little note..."

is this a mondegreen? Could it possibly be "penned"?

Subject: RE: Origins: There Is a Tavern in the Town
From: GUEST,Hilary
Date: 06 Sep 15 - 02:28 PM

Given that the verse in which "pinned" appears also includes a reference to never knocking on the narrator's door, it never struck me as odd because I assumed the note was being pinned to her door.

Subject: RE: Origins: There Is a Tavern in the Town
From: GUEST,EJP
Date: 06 Sep 15 - 10:51 PM

Very good point, Hilary. That makes sense. Now what do you think about this?

"And these were all the words he wrote:"

What did he write? The next verse (about digging the grave, etc.) is her last request, not his note. Is there a verse missing? Or is there another explanation?

Subject: RE: Origins: There Is a Tavern in the Town
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 06 Sep 15 - 11:01 PM

I looked for the song on the Lester Levy site. A title search didn't work, but it came up under Composition: F.J. Adams.

I played the music, and I don't think it's changed a bit in all these years. I find that remarkable - no change from 1893 (if not before) till today.

It's fun to play.

Subject: RE: Origins: There Is a Tavern in the Town
From: GUEST,Hilary
Date: 07 Sep 15 - 01:10 PM

EJP, I think "the words he wrote" were the chorus of the song: "Fare thee well, for I must leave thee, etc." However, that brings up an interesting point that both parties are ostensibly singing the chorus and, while it might make sense for him to sing "Fare thee well for I must leave thee/ Do not let this parting grieve thee/ And remember that the best of friends must part, must part" but the "I'll hang my heart on the weeping willow tree" would probably be her words. I've always felt that her singing "remember that the best of friends must part," was kind of a reluctantly bitter comment. She'd prefer that they not have to part. It's not necessarily just her saying goodbye to her friends because she's about to die. Think of "Look down look down that lonesome road/ Hang down your head and cry/ The best of friends must part some day/ So why not you and I," which also seems to be a song about one lover not being faithful to another. Maybe the beginning part of the chorus is his words that she's bitterly parroting back at him. So instead it'd read:
Him: "Fare thee well for I must leave thee/ Do not let this parting grieve thee/ Remember that the best of friends must part."
Her: "Adieu, adieu kind friends adieu, yes adieu/ I can no longer stay with you, stay with you/ I'll hang my heart on the weeping willow tree/ And may the world go well with thee."
But obviously all that's just speculation on my part.

Subject: RE: Origins: There Is a Tavern in the Town
From: GUEST,EJP
Date: 15 Sep 15 - 10:10 AM

Hilary, I appreciate the obvious thought you've put into what you say. Speculation, yes, but it makes sense, and a plausible explanation is enough to satisfy me. Thank you.

Subject: RE: Origins: There Is a Tavern in the Town
From: GUEST,J murphy
Date: 10 Jan 16 - 06:02 PM

Read some time ago that this song was written in a pub in Mullingar, Ireland by a Presbyterian ministers son who was slighted by a girl in the town.

Subject: RE: Origins: There Is a Tavern in the Town
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 11 Jan 16 - 02:22 AM

I'm quite sure it's supposed to be a harp that is hung on the willow—not a heart or a hat or a head—because the whole trope here is an allusion to scripture, Psalm 137 (KJV):

1. By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
2. We hanged our harps upon the willows in the midst thereof.
3. For there they that carried us away captive required of us a song; and they that wasted us required of us mirth, saying, Sing us one of the songs of Zion.

Hanging one's harp on a willow is symbolic of refusal to sing a joyous song, as it is no occasion for joy. The image is a popular one in religious literature and hymns.

Subject: RE: Origins: There Is a Tavern in the Town
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Jan 16 - 03:48 AM

Read some time ago that this song was written in a pub in Mullingar, Ireland by a Presbyterian ministers son who was slighted by a girl in the town.

For any reasonably well known folk song or tune from the English-speaking world, it would be surprising if it DIDN'T have some bullshit legend saying it came from Ireland.

Subject: RE: Origins: There Is a Tavern in the Town
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 11 Jan 16 - 12:42 PM

The version on the Levy site does indeed say harp, Jim.

I think some of us are taking this song too seriously. The girl is sensible and independent. She's figured out that her guy is too fond of drink, plus he's been fooling around on her, sparking with a damsel dark.

She's out of there.

Subject: RE: Origins: There Is a Tavern in the Town
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jan 24 - 04:17 AM

When traditional Bards died, their harps (or fiddles) were broken and/or hung from weeping willow trees as a sign of mourning and respect. The instruments would be left to slowly fall apart in the weather, NEVER to be played by another person. There was considered to be a spiritual connection between player and instrument, and the instruments were treated as entities in their own right. So the song is telling us that the musician is going to die. This was originally sung as a dirge, not a rollicking drinking song.

Subject: RE: Origins: There Is a Tavern in the Town
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 Jan 24 - 08:52 AM

I have the original sheet music for several late 19th century versions and they're all composites with different authors who have simply presented their versions. However the earliest actually state that the 'Died for love' verses came from a Cornish version of that lament and indeed they are close to one of the thousands of versions, one found in the trad song book 'Canow Kernow' of Cornish songs.

The various interesting posts here that take a serious historical note give the origins of just about all of the text in the well-known version as it was sung in the 20th century.

Both American students and the Minstrel diaspora took some popular and traditional material to make some of their repertoire. A good example is 'My Bonny' basically a student song, but closely derived from Harry Clifton's 'Send back my Barney' of the 1860s which was popular in America in the late 19th century. As these songs were rewritten/ put together and given a new tune in America I have no doubts they should be considered American. (with some British input).

Subject: RE: Origins: There Is a Tavern in the Town
From: meself
Date: 06 Jan 24 - 12:01 PM

Just for the academic record, when I was a kid in south-western Ontario in the 1960s, 'Head and Shoulders, Knees and Toes' was always sung to the 'London Bridge is Falling Down' melody.

As a kid, I was a little creeped out by the carving of the turtle-dove on her breast, but at some point I realized(?) that the 'breast' in question would have been a feature of memorial statuary.

One post mentioned Rudy Vallee rhyming 'you' with the French pronunciation of 'adieu', for comic effect. This was done in all earnestness in Sound of Music, as I recall: 'And so we bid adieu,/To yieu and yieu and yieu' ... !

Subject: RE: Origins: There Is a Tavern in the Town
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 Jan 24 - 01:39 PM

the 'breast' in question would have been a feature of memorial statuary.

Absolutely, m. And that stanza goes back at least to the 18th century.

Here's an early version from 'The Maid's Tragedy'.

Now dig my grave both wide and deep,
With a marble stone to cover it,
In the middle thereof a turtle dove,
To shew the world I dy'd for love.