BS: Flu Shot Yesterday, Flu Today?

Subject: BS: Flu Shot Yesterday, Flu Today?
From: Slag
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 01:00 AM

No, but it sure feels like it. I usually don't have reactions to flu shots. Usually it is just a little itchiness and heat around the injection site and that is gone in a day or so. This year the shot was totally painless. Teflon coated needle and if I weren't looking I would have never known I had been injected!

But today is a different story! Not my usual migraine. This one is on both sides of my head. It's not as debilitating as a migraine headache can be but it is bad enough and no med has touched it so far. Throw in the achey joints and zombie-like lethargy and that is how my day has been so far today. I was told they had two different strains they were vacinating for. Maybe that's it. Has anyone else had trouble with the shots?

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Shot Yesterday, Flu Today?
From: Janie
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 01:14 AM

Hope you feel better soon, Slag.

I got my flu shot yesterday morning (Tuesday, so going on 32 hours now). Like your's, it was designed to combat both swine flu and whatever other variety is anticipated for this year.   No ill effects at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Shot Yesterday, Flu Today?
From: GUEST,Blue Fin Tuna
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 01:22 AM

Read up on Thymerosol ... if it aint legal in fish...

Why do you believe mercury would be good in you?

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

It took 15 years...to figure out....that the recurrent pink-eye ... came from preservative in the contact-lens solution .... and fresh mixed common table-salt wih tap-water was a safer combo ... you CAN stop the migrains....just become aware of the trigger (sulfaites, aged cheese, red wine, nitrates, MSG, etc.)

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Shot Yesterday, Flu Today?
From: Janie
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 01:49 AM

All I know is pneumonia is definitely not good for me, and all three times I have had pneumonia, it was secondary to influenza.

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Shot Yesterday, Flu Today?
From: Slag
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 02:43 AM

Yes, sometimes I get the pneumonia shot too. I guess it works. I haven't had pneumonia since I was 26.

Mercury is a strange one. I know it can affects developing children much more than adults and it can be a serious toxin in adults due to repeated or prolonged exposure. But I know too, that it used to be given for certain stomach problems, orally. The amalgamate used in common dental filings contain up to 40% Hg with no "apparent" ill effects in adults. Strange stuff mercury. There is a lot of it in my area. There used to be active mercury mines here and my grandfather worked in one for a short period of time back in the early 30's. He used to have a piece of cinnabar that you could just shake and the mercury would fall out of it. No noticable ill effects there either. Cigarets killed him in '64.

As for migraines (thank you Gargoyle)MSG is a big trigger for mine and I stay away from it as it usually means a trip to the Dr. or the ER. I've done elimination diets, etc. to try to discover what triggers the rest of them with no clear picture. I just get them: often! The one's you mention are quite well known. I can tolerate them in small amounts but if I get to greedy with say, the cheese or wine, yes, it will trigger one.

But this flu shot is definitely NOT that sort of headache. It is like the flu but without the fever and all the nasty stuff that goes with it. I'll live but it's crazy that one time it doesn't bother me in the least and then the next, POW! It knocks me for a loop!

You bring up a good point Janie. If flu is dangerous in and of itself, the secondary conditions it can foster can be more deadly than the original condition. One should always consult a physician if they have had a history such as your's with the flu. Don't take chances.

Personally, I'd rather take my chances with a tad bit of mercury (which can be chased from your system with vitamin C ) than be hit with a potentially deadly disease like influenza.

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Shot Yesterday, Flu Today?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 02:51 AM

I only had a week long tennis ball sized painful knot on my arm (injection site) this time. Felt a bit headachey and shivery the day after but not bad.

Nurse said there was a bit of swine flu strain in it too.

If you are really sick this quickly, I suspect that you had already been exposed to and were incubating flu prior to injection. That happened to me a few years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Shot Yesterday, Flu Today?
From: Slag
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 02:52 AM

OOoo, hadn't considered that VT! Thanks!

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Shot Yesterday, Flu Today?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 12:49 PM

The Flu jab contains 3 strains this year

A spokesman from the Health Protection Agency says, in an e-mail, that when looking at which strains to include in this year's jab the World Health Organisation (WHO) took the view that for the 2010/2011 season the vaccine should contain the following influenza virus strains: A/California/7/2009 ( H1N1 the pandemic strain); A/Perth/16/2009 (H3N2); and B/Brisbane/60/2008.

I had the flu jab for the first time last Saturday and the Pneumonia jab as well. That's becuase I am now 65.

I had no soreness from the injections or any reactions to my knowledge. However, the next day I did have a bit of a runny nose, but it was minor.

They say you should not get the flu from the jab and am inclined to agree with VT.

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Shot Yesterday, Flu Today?
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 12:56 PM

OOps Sorry that was me posting as GUEST.

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Shot Yesterday, Flu Today?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 01:02 PM

I got flu from it once, felt awful for 2 weeks. It was the first year I was diagnosed with diabetes, so they managed to talk me into it. Never again. I've decided the Corporate Medical Bastards are onto a really good thing with this one!

I mean, flu's been around for centuries...We never had mass innoculations against it back when I was growing up, and we never had thousands dying from flu. I've had the real whole caboodle, once in my life, and that was pretty grim, but hell, I survived, even though I couldn't move any limbs for almost a week....and my then husband was the same.

It worried me how much this whole thing's got blown out of proportion, the scare-mongering going on all over..the anti-flu wipes, the sterile this and that packs at the chemist, the signs about swine flu, the recorded messages on your GPs phone system..."If you think you have swine flu, go stand in a field, very very far away from US, as we don't want it!"   (I jest)

You don't think the world's being made to feel just a teensy bit neurotic do you? All this as the Corporate Medical Bastards rake all the money in, with their unsterilized greedgerm-ridden hands....


Anyone seen The Constant Gardener?   If not, watch it...


And yes, I realise I may well have now summoned up The Flu Faeries who'll cough and sneeze and splutter their Dust du Contagia all over me......and nothing will ever be heard from me again... ;0)

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Shot Yesterday, Flu Today?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 01:07 PM

Millions die from flu Sorry Lizzie, but you're wrong on this one.
Remember that different strains of influenza emerge, almost every year too.

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Shot Yesterday, Flu Today?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 02:29 PM

Yes, I know, John...about that flu pandemic that is, and the different strains, etc..but I really feel that there's one helluva lot of worry being put on people's shoulders about this.

There was hysteria here about Swine Flu, total hysteria...and what happened? Nothing. A few highly unfortunate people died, but there are some who have always died from flu, throughout the centuries, usually in fairly small amounts..I'm not talking about the pandemic here...

Every chemist you went into, there were the 'anti flu medications, wipes etc' all at the front of the shop, main viewing place, maximum profit....And most of it all got sold off half price or less...

I just worry that folks are pumping themselves full of goodness knows what...It was even on BBC Radio Devon today, on and on they went about it...telling folks to get their jabs..and if people said they were worried about the jabs they were told how safe they were etc...

I don't know..maybe I have a somewhat cynical nature...

Over here in Torquay, it seems that if you're diagnosed with diabetes, and I know two people who've had that happen very recently, they want to put you on tablets *immediately*. ?????   Now, I was just put on diet alone, and it's worked, for years, so far...I KNOW that to get my blood sugar right down I need to exercise, take a brisk walk, cycle, whatever..eat pretty well and take care of myself..and my sugar and cholesterol levels have been fine.

My colleagues had the fear of God put into them..and were put on tablets straight away, being told that it helped the 'long term effects' far more.

Diabetes is now a huge problem for some, and a huge profit for others...

I have never felt such pressure to be 'medicated' as I have since moving to Torbay, and every time I say "Thanks, but no thanks" the nurse looks at me as if I'm insane. In Sidmouth I was told that my positive outlook about diabetes was a breath of fresh air, and 'half the battle'...and how they wished other patients would take such a relaxed approach to it..

It was only the other day that one of the diabetic tablets was withdrawn for causing all sorts of side-effects...

Too cynical about too many things these days, John... :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Shot Yesterday, Flu Today?
From: MikeL2
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 03:02 PM

hi Lizzie

having worked for a pharmaceutical company I know you are right about the money made from drugs of all kinds. We did not make flu or cold medecines but we did manufacture and sell beta-blockers and other well known medications.

Despite this I always have the flu jab. My wife and I went on Saturday. Completely painless....even my wife who hates needles said this. No after effects neither.

I don't know what the odds are about a pwerson getting flu and how much they are reduced by getting the jab but as it took only 5 minutes of our time I think it was worth the effort.

Regards

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Shot Yesterday, Flu Today?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 03:23 PM

My husband and I got flu shots about a month ago. I felt no effects, he got slightly ill. Since we had been eating the same foods, we put it down to a reaction to the shot.

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Shot Yesterday, Flu Today?
From: andrew e
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 03:49 PM

Some things to check out on flu shots.


http://www.davidicke.com/articles/medicalhealth-mainmenu-37/25096-say-no-to-the-vaccine

http://www.davidicke.com/articles/medicalhealth-mainmenu-37/39928-nurse-exposes-toxic-flu-vaccine-manufacturer-did-not-research-side-effects

http://www.davidicke.com/articles/medicalhealth-mainmenu-37

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Shot Yesterday, Flu Today?
From: bobad
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 04:08 PM

Responding to Anti-vaccine Misinformation: Understanding the Issues

Safety and Effectiveness: Safety themes are universal on antivaccination sites. Every single site surveyed claimed vaccines were poisonous, caused illness, and and contained poisonous substances..antifreeze, formaldehyde, mercury, and so on. Illnesses linked to vaccines includes autism (of course), AIDS, asthma, leukemia, SIDS, and more. Additional common claims included:

    * vaccines weaken the immune system
    * vaccines don�t actually provide immunity
    * vaccines didn�t result in the elimination of smallpox/measles/etc, it was public health/nutrition/poverty
    * vaccine preventable diseases are trivial. Measles is �mild�, smallpox was �harmless�, etc.

Alternative Medicine: Most antivaccination sites promote alternative medicine. Treatments like herbal medicines, homeopathy, naturopathy, chiropractic or acupuncture were positioned as superior to vaccination. Common sentiment included:

    * �natural� methods of disease prevention are superior
    * allowing children to experience illness is a better approach
    * rejection of germ theory: claiming illness is a result of imbalanced bodily conditions, �dis-ease�, vital force, etc. Ad hominem attacks against Pasteur were noted.
    * rejection of scientific, clinical and epidemiologic evidence

Civil Liberties: Civil liberty arguments appeal to parental/self rights and make accusations of totalitarianism/fascism. (One argument I noted before the H1N1 vaccine arrived in Canada were claims that the military was prepared to force vaccination on all citizens of Canada.) A common story is that of a parent who had their child taken away by social services for not being immunized.

Conspiracy Theories: Conspiracy theories are endemic, and showed up on every antivaccination site reviewed. Anti-science rhetoric is common. Sites almost always claim there is a mass cover-up involving manufacturers, governments, regulators, and health professionals. Typical claims include:

    * vaccination is motivated solely by profit-driven pharmaceutical companies
    * viruses like H1N1 were created in a laboratory (by Big Pharma, or the World Health Organization) to control the population
    * vaccinations are a tool of the World Health Organization/Illuminati/etc to control the world/implement the New World Order
    * regulators have no interest in protecting the public, they are beholden to Big Pharma
    * vaccines are a socialist/conservative/Democrat/Republican plot
    * health professionals are profit-focused and beholden to industry
    * health professionals are in denial or are blind to the true effects of vaccines
    * health professionals actively and deliberately under-report adverse events to vaccines
    * physician that speak out against vaccines (e.g., Andrew Wakefield) are lauded or martyred, no matter how discredited
    * vaccination is a tool to kill/sterilize/exert mind control of the population

Morality, Religion, and Ideology: Morality and religious objections were identified on 25% of web sites surveyed. Common arguments included:

    * God created a perfect immune system
    * vaccines are cultured in the tissue of aborted fetuses
    * animals are tortured in the manufacture of vaccines
    * vaccines are tested on children in third world countries

Misinformation and Falsehoods: Demonstrably false statements are common on antivaccination sites. The authors noted that there is no evidence of self-criticism in the anti-vaccination community, where unsupportable statements were rarely challenged. Misinformation can be difficult to spot without knowing the data, but commonly includes:

    * misleading interpretations of vaccine studies
    * misleading use of statistics
    * false statements about the presence/absence of thimerosal in vaccines
    * statistics/prevalence of communicable disease or diseases such as autism
    * unsupportable claims (e.g., smallpox was not contagious, polio caused by diet, rabies is psychosomatic)

Interestingly, the only website noted to be free of misinformation was Wikipedia�s �Vaccine Controversy� page, which, at the time the author did her survey, was �current, unbiased, and properly referenced.� It was felt to be the most credible and balanced of all the websites surveyed.

Emotive Appeals: Personal testimonials are very common, and typically include narratives from parents who attribute injury to vaccines. Interactions with government, medicine, and the scientific establishment are positioned as �us versus them� battles.
What�s a pharmacist in a postmodern society to do?

As long as there have been vaccinations, there have those that oppose them. The underlying themes have changed little since the 18th century, despite the demonstrable successes of vaccines. Kata suggests this indicates the presence of deeper social and political tensions that manifest as different arguments, depending on the era: Where civil rights and government distrust were historically more common, today, rejection of scientific evidence and of the science-based model of disease seems more prevalent, with a growing embrace of different (non-science-based) models of disease. But each person�s reason for rejection may be different, and it may manifest in how they interact with health care professionals. Some may trust the pharmacist, and others may see the pharmacist as just a cog in the industrial-pharmaceutical complex.

The internet brought democratization of information. Web 2.0′s social networking has led to the evolution of new social networks that make it easy for anyone with fears of vaccines to find the confirmation bias needed to reassure themselves that vaccines are bad. Kata implicates much of the modern antivaccination sentiment to postmodern concepts of society. To the postmodernist, there are no facts, only truths, and all truths are socially constructed. Because they�re socially constructed, they are subject to the biases and prejudices of the observer. This places the observer as the final arbiter of truth, regardless of expertise. To the post modernist, even basic science is to be questioned, because how can we �REALLY� know? The consequence of postmodernism is that the opinion of the pharmacist or physician becomes just that: one opinion that is considered alongside all others, including those without any relevant expertise or education.

It�s clear that the reasons for antivaccination sentiment can vary, and not all arguments are amenable to the simple provision of education or evidence. Having an understanding of the underlying issues that each patient may bring forward, and their underlying perspective on science, facts, and evidence can help pharmacists comprehend the nature of common anti-vaccine arguments. By keeping the lines of communication open, and being prepared to recognize vaccine misinformation, pharmacists can work to build trust and reinforce their voice as credible, trusted sources of information.
To our health professional readers: What are your strategies for dealing with anti-vaccine sentiment among your patients?
Reference

[1] Kata, A. (2010). A postmodern Pandora�s box: Anti-vaccination misinformation on the Internet Vaccine, 28 (7), 1709-1716 DOI: 10.1016/j.vaccine.2009.12.022

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Shot Yesterday, Flu Today?
From: MarkS
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 05:11 PM

Got my flu shot as usual this year,
Never in my life have I had my a** kicked like this year. Fever, aches, shortness of breath, fatigue, lasted about 12 hours. Now fine again.
I know this argument is "post hoc ergo propter hoc" but I just have nothing else to blame.
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Shot Yesterday, Flu Today?
From: Slag
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 06:19 PM

YaY! I survived! Side effects gone in the AM. It beats 2 weeks of the nasty stuff.

Re: Lizzie Cornish 1, Yes some folks refuse to get the jab but you draw a hasty conclusion that it is not needed. You benefit indirectly in that many of the folks you come in contact with have had the preventatives, do use the wipes, use a handkerchief, etc. and thereby do NOT pass a bug on to you.

MarkS, your statement is only anecdotal and not post hoc. Eliminate the variables! ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Shot Yesterday, Flu Today?
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 06:56 PM

Mudcat ate one of my posts after it told me it was posted. (I didn't SEE it though.)

It's impossible to get the flu from the flu shot. They don't include whole virus capable of reproducing. It IS possible to contract influenza before you get the shot or after you get it, before you develop antibodies. It's also possible to get a type of influenza not included in the shot.

This year's shot kicked my ass for about 24 hours. It's our own response that makes us sick. The sore throat, muscle aches, and other short-lived symptoms are caused by your immune system kicking virus ass... or what would pass of an ass if a virus had an ass. I thought, quite likely wrongly, that my "healthy" virus ass-kicking response was because I was immunized against one strain (the H1N1) last year and I still had a bunch of overly sensitive antibodies.

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Shot Yesterday, Flu Today?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 08:19 PM

What a racket it is!

The medical practitioner I go to, and who, I might add, is far and away the best medical practitioner I have ever found in my entire life, believes that flu shots are generally more harmful than the flu they are supposed to protect you from. And furthermore, that they kill more people than the flu does.

And I believe it too.

I have never gotten a flu shot. I never seem to get the flu either. Sometimes I get a mild cold, but I can't recall getting anything I would term "the flu" since maybe the mid-70s.

There's plenty of alternative literature out there about what flu shots do to you. I suggest doing a little reading. But...if you continue trusting the mainstream medical associations like the AMA and their partners in crime, the drug companies, then you won't do that alternative reading.

Fine with me. It's up to you how you decide to deal with your health and up to me how I decide to deal with mine.

I take no flu shots. No antacids. No laxatives. No painkillers (except a rare aspirin for a migraine). No antibiotics. No antidepressants. No mood-altering drugs of any kind. No drugs to suppress a runny nose (which is the body's attempt to detoxify itself). No stimulants. No muscle relaxants. No prescriptions.   No F-ing meds whatsoever.

Instead....drink enough water, get enough exercise, get enough sunlight, maintain a positive mental attitude, find activities and people in your life that make you happy, eat real food (specially fresh vegetables), and remove any major causes of stress. You will get quite healthy with such a lifestyle, and your immune system will be strong...but it won't make any money for the AMA or the drug companies! If 120 million people did it, the AMA and the drug companies would be pretty much out of business, except for dealing with physical traumas resulting from accidents. They're good at fixing structural damage like that, because they treat the body like a dumb, helpless machine, not an intelligent, self-healing organism.

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Shot Yesterday, Flu Today?
From: bobad
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 08:38 PM

Some Common Misconceptions

4. Vaccines cause many harmful side effects, illnesses, and even death - not to mention possible long-term effects we don't even know about.

Vaccines are actually very safe, despite implications to the contrary in many anti-vaccine publications (which sometimes contain the number of reports received by VAERS, and allow the reader to infer that all of them represent genuine vaccine side-effects). Most vaccine adverse events are minor and temporary, such as a sore arm or mild fever. These can often be controlled by taking acetaminophen before or after vaccination. More serious adverse events occur rarely (on the order of one per thousands to one per millions of doses), and some are so rare that risk cannot be accurately assessed. As for vaccines causing death, again so few deaths can plausibly be attributed to vaccines that it is hard to assess the risk statistically. Of all deaths reported to VAERS between 1990 and 1992, only one is believed to be even possibly associated with a vaccine. Each death reported to VAERS is thoroughly examined to ensure that it is not related to a new vaccine-related problem, but little or no evidence suggests that vaccines have contributed to any of the reported deaths. The Institute of Medicine in its 1994 report states that the risk of death from vaccines is "extraordinarily low."

CDC

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Shot Yesterday, Flu Today?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 09:35 PM

I got a flu shot a few years back and I got sick.

I have been using that as an excuse for not getting one but last week I let the Doc talk me into it.

I did not get sick but my daughter got one and she got sick the next day.

I believe it is possible to get sick form a flu shot but It is less discomfort than the flu which can be deadly for is 65+ Geezers.

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Shot Yesterday, Flu Today?
From: Janie
Date: 28 Oct 10 - 10:39 PM

Good for you, LH, for taking such virtuously impeccable care of yourself.

Since I don't, I consider possible harm or death from pneumonia secondary to a bad bout of the flu to represent a far greater risk than any risk incurred from getting a flu vaccine.

I accept that I could take much better care of myself than I do, that it is a choice I have the privilege to make. A privilege because of the resources available to me.

Now, go give your accurate prescription for healthy living to a neighborhood of the working poor, to a group of mothers living in a refugee camp, or to the homeless family living in their car and eating at the local interfaith food kitchen. They can probably get flu and other vaccines at the local health department, but no other medical care except through an emergency room. Tell them to think twice about getting vaccinated, cause vaccines are nothing but a racket. And be sure to tell them it their choice and no skin off your nose if they choose otherwise. It is their decision, after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Shot Yesterday, Flu Today?
From: Slag
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 03:20 AM

LH! I had a friend who lived into his nineties and smoked every day of his life. I am thnkful that he did not point to his habit as a thing of virtue and deny that it could harm anyone. Could yours be a hastily drawn conclusion? Just a little? Yes there is wisdom in living a life with healthy habits but some folks have the luck with them and some of us seem to catch every little thing that comes down the pike. If you have school-aged kids you are triply indicated for bug-tussel. They will bring home every known strain over the course of the school year. Just be thankful to the UFO folks that you have been blessed!

Tom ; ]

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Shot Yesterday, Flu Today?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 03:40 AM

I believe there has been *some* evidence to suggest that improved sanitation rather than jabs was the thing which reduced epidemics of viruses. Based I think on the fact that most of the major damaging viruses were already on their way out prior to the introduction of mass inoculation. I don't know if that's true (I don't have any data to back it up) but from what she told me that's one of the reasons my Mother (who did research available literature) never had me inoculated against anything as a child. As I've never been used to having jabs for anything I never got into the habit of doing so in adulthood. I went through all the childhood illnesses and though I get the odd malaise (quite infrequently, though I have just had a cold), I can't imagine myself ever becoming concerned enough about catching flue to consider starting to do so. I know two people that have had pneumonia, one is a long term alcoholic who has multiple serious health problems, the other was my eighty five year old grandmother who died in hospital from it after a major operation. I guess if I saw more pneumonia killing off otherwise healthy people I might start to get concerned and consider it a serious enough threat to get a winter flue jab.

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Shot Yesterday, Flu Today?
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 04:08 AM

If you watch The Constant Gardener, Janie, you'll see that the people you mention are *exactly* the groups of people that the drug companines, in that film, used to experiment with their new mega-dollar busting drug...

And don't even get me *started* on Ritalin and all the crap we're anaesthetising happy, healthy, zingyspringy, filled with energy, bored RIGID with school, children with!

'Ritalin Grin' - Youtube

Subject: RE: BS: Flu Shot Yesterday, Flu Today?
From: bankley
Date: 29 Oct 10 - 11:20 AM

I really liked that film Lizzie.... I've never had a flu shot, and don't intend to start at this point. During the scare campaign last fall, a friend of mine went for his shot in Montreal. He was in good health. After the inoculation, he starting feeling increasingly strange and returned to the hospital a week later when symptoms worsened. He never left. His health deteriorated over the next three months then he died of heart failure. Coincidence ? That's what the hospital claimed. Of course they would to avoid blame. Conspiracy ? Not likely. He had no enemies. Anyhow, I miss him. He was a fine musician and recording mastering technician. The last solo he ever played is featured on 'Down to Love' from my 'Falling Forward' CD which he also mastered. I was fortunate to have his energy in this.
His name : Fern Martel.