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BS: Should Obama Run in '12???

Bobert 14 Nov 10 - 07:48 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 14 Nov 10 - 07:54 PM
Susu's Hubby 14 Nov 10 - 08:08 PM
Ebbie 14 Nov 10 - 08:08 PM
gnu 14 Nov 10 - 08:13 PM
katlaughing 14 Nov 10 - 08:15 PM
Susu's Hubby 14 Nov 10 - 08:15 PM
Ebbie 14 Nov 10 - 08:15 PM
pdq 14 Nov 10 - 08:25 PM
Joe Offer 14 Nov 10 - 08:32 PM
Amos 14 Nov 10 - 08:55 PM
Jim Dixon 14 Nov 10 - 09:39 PM
Jack the Sailor 14 Nov 10 - 09:45 PM
Bobert 14 Nov 10 - 09:47 PM
Genie 14 Nov 10 - 11:39 PM
Jack the Sailor 14 Nov 10 - 11:53 PM
Little Hawk 15 Nov 10 - 12:49 AM
J-boy 15 Nov 10 - 12:57 AM
DougR 15 Nov 10 - 01:00 AM
Little Hawk 15 Nov 10 - 01:06 AM
Genie 15 Nov 10 - 01:48 AM
Bobert 15 Nov 10 - 07:02 AM
kendall 15 Nov 10 - 07:24 AM
Ron Davies 15 Nov 10 - 07:45 AM
beardedbruce 15 Nov 10 - 08:20 AM
MarkS 15 Nov 10 - 08:28 AM
Bobert 15 Nov 10 - 08:34 AM
Richard Bridge 15 Nov 10 - 08:40 AM
GUEST,Neil D 15 Nov 10 - 10:28 AM
Wesley S 15 Nov 10 - 11:10 AM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Nov 10 - 02:26 PM
GUEST,kendall 15 Nov 10 - 02:40 PM
Little Hawk 15 Nov 10 - 03:58 PM
Genie 15 Nov 10 - 05:36 PM
Genie 15 Nov 10 - 05:53 PM
Bobert 15 Nov 10 - 06:36 PM
robomatic 15 Nov 10 - 08:27 PM
Genie 15 Nov 10 - 09:40 PM
Bobert 15 Nov 10 - 09:54 PM
Ron Davies 15 Nov 10 - 10:26 PM
Mrrzy 16 Nov 10 - 02:22 PM
Little Hawk 16 Nov 10 - 03:38 PM
Bobert 16 Nov 10 - 04:38 PM
Genie 16 Nov 10 - 07:24 PM
Bobert 16 Nov 10 - 08:16 PM
Mrrzy 16 Nov 10 - 08:50 PM
kendall 17 Nov 10 - 07:38 PM
Little Hawk 17 Nov 10 - 08:17 PM
Bobert 17 Nov 10 - 08:47 PM
Mrrzy 17 Nov 10 - 09:03 PM

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Subject: BS: Should Obama Run in '12???
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 07:48 PM

I've kinda been thinkin' about this myself for a couple months now but in today's Washington Post (Outlook Section) there is a very thought provokin' article entitled "One & Done" by a couple of Democratic operatives, Patrick Caddell (Jimmy Carter's administration) and Douglas Schoen (Bill Clinton's administration)...

They give some very good reason why Obama would go down in history as a great president if he were to announce that he isn't running in '12... This would force the Repubs to participate and if that happens then lots of stuff can be tackled without the same old sandbaggin' that we've seen from the Repubs... It would also force a few of the more obstinate Dems to get with the program...

I kind like their thinking... I mean, the way things have evolved in our country it makes no sense for a president to have two terms because the first one gets consumed with campiagnin' for the 2nd term... Case in point... The 2004 election... Would Bush have gone into Iraq if he wasn't trying to position himself with his base for a 2nd term??? Who knows but, like I said, I would love it if Obama just had the balls to say, "Hey, ya'll... I ain't runnin' so now lets get down to America's business"...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Should Obama Run in '12???
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 07:54 PM

He should have withdrawn and let Hillary have it in 2008.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should Obama Run in '12???
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 08:08 PM

I think Obama should be a stand up guy and run on his record...anything less is an admit of total failure of his first term...it's as if some dems are saying now....The heat's too high...why don't we step out of the kitchen...just sayin...

Hubby


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Subject: RE: BS: Should Obama Run in '12???
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 08:08 PM

Good lord! Why?

If he wants another term I hope he runs. I wouldn't blame him at all if he does not.

The one thing in which this administration has failed to this point, imo, lies in not better publicising their successes. Instead, some - many?- people think their taxes have gone up, that the bali outs haven't helped, that they are not paying ror themselves, that the health reform act, incomplete as it is, is not an improvement on what we had, that insurance for those in school is not more inclusive, that the drug industry is not being shaken up. Lots of things.

I still think that the presidency should be comprised of a triumvirate


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Subject: RE: BS: Should Obama Run in '12???
From: gnu
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 08:13 PM

Why bother? The populace has voted in favour of the nut cases that subvert the people... better for him to fuck off with the pension and the perks and fuck USA. Cut and run. If they don't wanna try to help themselves... fuck em. He's good. Made in the shade. Why bother to try to do any good? Why try to stand up and fight for anyone who turns on you on the middle of the fight?


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Subject: RE: BS: Should Obama Run in '12???
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 08:15 PM

I do, too, Ebbie. And, I also agree with Hubby. People will call him a loser if he doesn't...they wouldn't "get it" if he tried that. Besides it hasn't seemed to work in the past. The only way to change things so campaigning doesn't consume so much is to Fix Congress First, imo.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should Obama Run in '12???
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 08:15 PM

I agree with Ebbie....come on President Obama....please run again!!! Nancy Pelosi has the backbone to run again after the outcome of the last election....why don't you?....


Hubby


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Subject: RE: BS: Should Obama Run in '12???
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 08:15 PM

On the other hand, gnu, he is not Sarah.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should Obama Run in '12???
From: pdq
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 08:25 PM

"Should Obama Run in '12???

It depends on how fast he can run.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should Obama Run in '12???
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 08:32 PM

Hey, this guy is a good President, best we've had since Truman (who had popularity problems during his presidency, too). Four years is too short a time to get much accomplished, and yet people expect a President to work miracles in the first thousand days. Take a look at:
I had been expecting to lose health insurance coverage soon for my stepson, who's 21 years old. I just confirmation he's now insured until he's 26. Thank you, Barack Obama!


So, THERE!!!

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Should Obama Run in '12???
From: Amos
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 08:55 PM

I think he should run and win in '12 and again in '16. By that time the dingbats who throw out roadblocks to every decent idea he has put forward will be dead or declined into apathy.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Should Obama Run in '12???
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 09:39 PM

Here's the article that Bobert referred to in the opening message:

One & Done
By Douglas E. Schoen and Patrick H. Caddell
Sunday, November 14, 2010
The Washington Post

I haven't read it yet, so I will withhold comment until I do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should Obama Run in '12???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 09:45 PM

I don't think he would have a lot of trouble beating the Glen Beck, Newt Gingrich Republican ticket.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should Obama Run in '12???
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 09:47 PM

Thank you, Jim... It is a good read and food for thought... I mean, I worked for Obama and generally support him... These are some very difficult times and require leadership... What we've seen from the Repubs is not leadership but some downright unAmerican politics that I have not witnessed in my life time... Yes, I have read about times like these but I must say that the civil rights movement wasn't the clusterfuck that we have now...

If Obama were to rob the Repubs of another 2 years of this crap and ***frorce***, yes force them to have to do something other than play games while the country suffers then Obama will go down in history as one of the best ever... He said he'd rather be a good one-term president than a mediocre two termer...

Here's his chance...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Should Obama Run in '12???
From: Genie
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 11:39 PM

Obama may well be our best Presidential option in 2012, but I find myself wishing he would have the guts to BE a one-termer if that's what it takes to stand up for the kinds of principles and policies he campaigned on.    I don't think tacking to the so-called "center" is going to get him re-elected in 2012 anyway or help the Democrats stay viable in Congress either.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should Obama Run in '12???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 11:53 PM

If Obama extends the tax cuts for the rich, I don't think I will be able to work for him or donate to him again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should Obama Run in '12???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 12:49 AM

And I wouldn't blame you one bit, Jack.

I think there's a strong case to be made for having only one-term presidents instead of always trying for 2-term presidents. That way their first term would not become utterly compromised by them jockeying for best position to win the next election, and they could just maybe for once act according to principles rather than according to expediency.

As for the article, I think it makes some good points, but I do not think there's any justification for cutting "entitlements" (meaning stuff like social security). Those aren't entitlements at all...they are absolutely necessary and vital forms of insurance and protection that should be given to people in any modern and responsible society.

The one thing that is genuinely an entitlement and that should be cut is the massive expenditure on the military-industrial complex, which clearly feels that it is entitled to bloated funding which outweighs all the military spending of all the other nations in the world put together. THAT's an entitlement. That should be cut. The troops should be brought home. The occupied lands should be put back under their own sovereignty by their own people. The USA should stop thinking it has any right to pre-emptively attack anyone, because no country has such a right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should Obama Run in '12???
From: J-boy
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 12:57 AM

He can run pretty fast. He played basketball and his dad was a Kenyan. I also hear running keeps you in shape. Not that I would know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should Obama Run in '12???
From: DougR
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 01:00 AM

Well, I certainly hope he will!

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Should Obama Run in '12???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 01:06 AM

If he did, Doug, you would quickly have to start working on hating the next Democrat who runs for president... ;-) And I bet you could manage that just fine.

Think how bereft your loyal (Democratic) opposition is now that they don't have George Bush to bitch about fulltime anymore...and you'll maybe get what I mean about how bereft you would be for a short time with Obama retired from the scene. You'd be like the friggin' coyote with no road runner! Like Sylvester without Tweety Bird!

But, hey....Hillary! Think about that, Doug. There are yet great possibilities ahead upon which to focus your political hostility and scorn.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should Obama Run in '12???
From: Genie
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 01:48 AM

And Social Security isn't really an "entitlement program anyway, and I wish the politicians, including the Democrats, would quit calling it that.

If Obama's the Democratic nominee in 2012, I'll almost certainly vote for him unless there's a really viable 3rd-party candidate, which is highly unlikely.   But the liberal/progressive base who largely stayed home this November 2 aren't likely to show up in bigger numbers in 2010 if Obama and the Congressional Dems insist on moving to the "right" and calling it "the center."


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Subject: RE: BS: Should Obama Run in '12???
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 07:02 AM

The problem with both Social Security and Medicare is two fold... They are expensive and underfunded... As people live longer and go around saying that 60 is the "new 50" it means that folks will be on it longer and it also means that alot of folks will be retiring when they are still in fine shape to continue working...

(That will get the howlers out, Boberdz... We thought you were a progressive...)

I am a progressive but that doesn't mean that I'm going to just take a stand that everything on our menu is just fine but just needs more money from the wealthy...

Speaking of the wealthy, unless progressives see them become involved then it's going to be a hard sell (like impossible) to the progressive side for any changes in Social Security or Medicare or Medicaid... There needs to be movement on both sides... Greater finacial participation from the rich in exchange foe some tinkering on the other end, which could include raising the retirement age by a year or so...

One other thing that the government could do to make Medicare more solvent would be to hire more claims people who acted more like private insurance claims people who understand tyhe meaning of the word no... Too much outright Medicare fraud and too much over-charging by legit providers...

I mean, no one is going to be real happy if we do fix some broken stuff... But that will mean that it was prolly done correctly...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Should Obama Run in '12???
From: kendall
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 07:24 AM

Hillary and Sara! Canada, here I come!


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Subject: RE: BS: Should Obama Run in '12???
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 07:45 AM

"if Obama extends the tax cuts for the rich..."


That's the crux of his problem.    He will need his base--especially since if Sarah wins the Republican nomination, she will damn sure have hers.

But if his base is so incredibly shortsighted and self-destructive as to not work for him--as well as voting for him--they will have nobody but themselves to blame for 4 years or more under Sarah's regime---or that of Pawlenty, Gingrich, Romney, or whoever else the Republicans pick.   Because you can bet that nobody else--including Hillary--will be able to marshall the sort of passionate support across all ethnic groups and ages-- that President Obama had in his 2008 run.

And as far as "tax cuts for the rich"---he's already being deserted by Democratic Senators and Congressmen on this.   If he signs a bill extending tax cuts for all taxpayers and his erstwhile supporters sit on their hands as a result of it, that will show just how petty and shortsighted they can be.    It's not as if it was his proposal to extend tax cuts for the rich.

He has been more ambitious--and done more for the "progressive agenda"-- than anybody since FDR.   Health care reform, in particular, is a work in progress.   Only in the Left's dreams would a perfect system have sprung forth from Obama's forehead.

But nobody has ever accused the Left of being sensible.   If they were, there would never have been a Nader candidacy. Nor would there have been a big push for things like removing the 10 Commandments from courthouses, removing "under God" from the Pledge, etc--which did nothing but bring out the other side in force, very likely making the difference in 2004.   

Issue here is, of course, as I've mentioned before, that in running for a second term your main selling point has to be competence, not charisma.    And the president will always be judged on the economy (despite the fact that he has limited leverage over it)--unless there is a hot war going on, in which case that may well be paramount.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should Obama Run in '12???
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 08:20 AM

"I am a progressive but that doesn't mean that I'm going to just take a stand that everything on our menu is just fine but just needs more money from the wealthy..."


HALLELUYAH!!!!!

Now, if we can get the present administration to feel this way...


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Subject: RE: BS: Should Obama Run in '12???
From: MarkS
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 08:28 AM

Sympathy for Obama kind of evaporated after I read of the waivers given to companies and unions, excusing them from participating in the new health care plan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should Obama Run in '12???
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 08:34 AM

I don't believe that the Obama administration is all that steeped in liberalism, bruce... It's just that if you are getting your news from FOX and reading only the op-eds in the Post by Gerson, Will or Klodhopper then it must seem that way...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Should Obama Run in '12???
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 08:40 AM

Funny, I thought an entitlement was something you were entitled to. Amazing how teapublicans can use virtuous terms as epithets.

When I hear any significant and genuine attempt by the teapublicans to work with the democrats on any sort of genuine middle ground (not simply teapublican theft with different names) I'll consider whether the democrats might sensibly co-operate with the nutters. Until then I regret that Obama did not go in loaded for bear, but still consider him a better bet than any of the nutjob neanderthals the teapublicans can conjure up


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Subject: RE: BS: Should Obama Run in '12???
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 10:28 AM

From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 11:53 PM

If Obama extends the tax cuts for the rich, I don't think I will be able to work for him or donate to him again.


Sorry Jack but it's a done deal. But true progressives in this country have always had to hold their noses and VOTE LOTE because true progressives have no chance at being president, think Dennis K. But a middle of the road moderate Democrat is still better by far than anything that can win a Republican primary these days. And Schoen and Caddell are yellow dog defeatists. If job growth continues to lag, and it will if the corporate banking system determines that winning one house wasn't enough, then we could lose the senate in 2012. Then keeping the White House and it's veto power could be the only barrier against the most brutal economic attack on the working class in my lifetime.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should Obama Run in '12???
From: Wesley S
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 11:10 AM

If the Republician Party and the tea party whackos are this pissed off at him then that's proof to me that he's doing a good job. Some of them hate him because he's black - and some hate him because he's gotten a lot of things done. But he hasn't gone far enough to suit me. So I hope he runs again. And I hope Sarah Palin runs against him. Because I don't think she has a chance in hell to get elected. She has a base but it's not big enough to get her elected.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should Obama Run in '12???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 02:26 PM

Obama is a pretty decent Conservative, as Conservatives go, and you're never going to get anyone to the left of him elected in the USA.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should Obama Run in '12???
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 02:40 PM

I hate to sound like a defeatist, but America and Humpty Dumpty have much in common.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should Obama Run in '12???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 03:58 PM

Just like the Democrats and Republicans have a lot in common with Tweedledee and Tweedledum.

The Tweedledeemocrats and the Tweedledumlicans!!! ;-D And then you have the Mad Hatter Tea Party. It's Malice in Blunderland all over again... Hillary gets to play the White Queen against Sarah's Red Queen. Bill Clinton takes over as the hookha-smoking caterpillar.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should Obama Run in '12???
From: Genie
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 05:36 PM

Ron, I agree that way too many on the left are so stupidly idealistic and/or short-sighted as to sit on their hands and let the far-right Republicans take over - possibly permanently - because they're disappointed in Obama and the Dems and think they'll "teach them a lesson" by doing so. (Or maybe they truly think "there's not an ounce of difference between the Democrats and Republicans" -- something even Ralph Nader now acknowledges is not true.)

But if Obama and the Dems cave in and extend the Bush tax cuts even for a year or two, they might as well extend them permanently (as permanently as any legislation ever exists).   The Republicans will control the House next term and they will use budget reconciliation to pass another 10-year extension of all those tax cuts if they need to. Then the Dems will have to vote it down in the Senate if they can (but there are enough blue dogs that it will probably pass). Or Obama will have to veto it. Either way, the Dems will still be in the position of "voting to raise taxes." And I don't see that happening.

Extending all those tax cuts -- keeping all cap. gains at max. rate of 15%; allowing untaxed inheritance of unlimited $ amounts; keeping top marginal tax rate at 35% -- will extend and exacerbate the deficit by about 4 trillion $ over 10 years. That will force severe cuts in the maintenance of "the commons," including our infrastructure, and greatly widen the increasing gap between the haves and the have nots.

Social Security should not be in any way on the chopping block because of the deficit, to which it has not contributed anything.   If it needs 'tweaking' temporarily or permanently, that can be done in various ways such as raising the cap on the amount of income that is subject to the "payroll tax."   But while the baby boomers are a huge demographic, it doesn't mean that every ensuing generation will be in the same situation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should Obama Run in '12???
From: Genie
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 05:53 PM

Bobert,
Those statistics about people living longer are easily misunderstood and often used to justify policies that don't follow from the demographics.

People are "living longer" for various reasons, not all of which mean people's productive work life is greater than before.

Some of the increase reflects lower death rates across the age spectrum, including infancy, due to infectuous diseases, etc.   Those increases in average longevity don't mean a 60-year-old today is likely to live much longer today than s/he would have been in 1950.

Some of the increase is also due to medical advances and social programs that keep the frail elderly from dying as early or as often from things like malnutrition, lack of health care, lack of home heating etc. A lot of the elderly in nursing homes today would not last long without that round-the-clock care, and programs like Meals On Wheels and home heating assistance also save the lives of low-income elderly people who live at home.   There are a lot of people today who live well beyond their "employable" years and that adds to the extended average lifespan but not necessarily to the extended working lifespan.

60 may be the new 50, but it doesn't necessarily mean that 70 is the new 60 or 80 is the new 70.   There are many occupations that require physical strength, agility, and endurance such that even people in their early 60s are at a real disadvantage.    Add to that the fact that even very competent and experienced workers today are met with strong age discrimination in hiring, even when they are in their 40s or 50s.   If you can't draw Social Security until 70, there's a good chance you're going to use up your IRA funds, unemployment, etc. well before then and have to rely on "welfare" programs such as food stamps.

Another drawback to raising the retirement age to 70 is that it would inflate our unemployment numbers.   The earlier the older generation retires, the more jobs open for the younger ones.   


Medicare is a different issue, and it does need adjustments to address fraud and make the system more efficient.   Of course, if we had a single-payer system like Canada or some other democratic countries, a lot of the $ that now is wasted in our overall health care system could be but to better use.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should Obama Run in '12???
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 06:36 PM

Well, Genie... We may as well get used to the idea that we progressives have a tidal wave headed in our direction so if we're going to propose uppin' the cap (presently the 1st $90,000 of income) on the higher income earners we may have to accept a gradual uppin' of the age at which people can get Social Security... I mean, this is going to be a conversation that *is* going to occur whether we like it or not...

We are in complete agreement on Medicare, however...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Should Obama Run in '12???
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 08:27 PM

I think Obama has done pretty good so far. Consider the incredibly brutal/ non-cooperative/ unambiguously hostile reactions he has stimulated in the right and far-right, who accuse him of being Communiist/ Socialist/ Satanist and have nothing whatsoever good to say about him or anything he has done/ tried to do/ talked about doing. The stupid things go beyond our borders to the infantile Berlusconi.
Our President has not been perfect, but he was never going to be perfect. He has remained Presidential, cool-headed, he has brought major legislation into being, he has made two good additions to the Supreme Court, and he has not abandoned hope. He is leading us into uncharted waters, and I have every hope he will be elected to a second term and that as we commemmorate the sesquicentennial of the American Civil War, we do so with a great American President who happens to be black.


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Subject: Social Security
From: Genie
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 09:40 PM

Bobert, we very well may have to deal with people bringing up the issue of raising the retirement age, but at least we should look at it realistically and fairly.

Continuing to work to age 70 is really not a viable option for millions of people who have been replaced in the work force by younger people, who face severe age discrimination ("You're overqualified," etc.), and who are in occupations that really require relatively young, fit bodies (e.g., heavy construction work, telephone linesmen). Heck, the airlines have been trying for years to force competent, experienced pilots to retire so they can hire younger ones and pay them less.

And there is the very real issue of what expanding the pool of labor, by upping the retirement age, does to the unemployment rate.

I think the biggest 'problem' with Social Security is the tidal wave of plutocratic, anti-populist propaganda against it that is growing and will probably grow even larger now that SCOTUS has given big corporations the green light to pour unlimited funds into spreading such propaganda.

Social Security is solvent until 2039 and can pay out 80% of benefits for some years after that even if nothing is done to tweak the system.    And if we can get unemployment down and more people paying into the system that will extend its solvency.   
If the people really understand what Social Security is and how it works, it shouldn't be that hard to garner support for raising the cap on SSI taxable income beyond the current $190k or so.   The cap wouldn't have to be totally removed, just raised reasonably to keep up with inflation, etc. And that "lock box" that Al Gore talked about would be a good start towards making sure the Social Security surplus, which is to be saved and to accrue interest, is there to serve the purposes for which it was designed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should Obama Run in '12???
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 09:54 PM

Well, Genie, I'd love to hold the line... Reality is that the progressives have been clobbered by the Supreme Court, first with Bush v. Gore and now with Citizens United... It is very disheartening and the worst thing about it is that the folks who are voting these people into office are clueless that they are voting against their own interests but by the time they find out it will be too late...

Our country is screwed...

The rich are corralling wealth at an astounding rate and the rest are left scamblin' for crumbs including the dumbasses who will one day wake up and ask, "What the Hell have we done..."

That is why I like the idea of Obama not running again in '12... That would give him instant credibility and if he'd take that and show a little spine he could force the Repubs hand... Maybe in doing that the dumbasses would wake the heck up...

One troubling aspect has to do with messaging... Too much is made about Obama not being able to deliver the message but that isn't the situation as much as the right wing controls the microphone and Karl Rove is still running anti-Dem ads even after the election and with Citizens money out there the Repubs can flood the airwaves with negative ads...

Like I said, the Supremes have ruined our country...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Should Obama Run in '12???
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 10:26 PM

"I don't think she has a chance in hell...."

I wonder what it will take to get Mudcatters to stop underestimating the opposition.

She has a good chance to get the Republican nomination if she runs--and all signs point to that probability.

If you don't think most Republicans will fall in line behind her if she gets the nomination--the Tea Party Republicans will pressure them hard to do so, and they will recognize the famous offer you can't refuse--you are still whistling in the dark. Seems to be a favorite Mudcat pastime.



And then it will be all about the economy.

And of course about how many disgruntled Mudcatters and others left of center get over their tantrums soon enough to not only vote for President Obama, but also to work for him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should Obama Run in '12???
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 02:22 PM

Just got here, sorry...

Q - he's better than Hillary for now
Amos - he can't run for a third term, or did I miss the irony?

OK, now, back to the thread already in progress.

I think it's coca-cola gambit time.

He should announce he isn't running, get a lot of stuff done, then at the last minute "come back because the public wants him to" at the height of his popularity for getting all that stuff done, and take the theoretical front runner to run in his stead as his vice-prez, and actually win by a clear majority over the other imbeciles.

It would be OK if that VP were Hilary *then* unless they come up with someone who looks better on paper; if Obama loses to her, he can still run in 4 years since he'll only have served one term. Or 8 if Hilary actually gets some stuff done. He's young.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should Obama Run in '12???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 03:38 PM

"win by a clear majority over the other imbeciles"

You sayin' Obama's an imbecile, Mrzzy??? ;-) Your plan sounds like a diabolically clever one to me. A shrewd gambit. I think he should give it a try.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should Obama Run in '12???
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 04:38 PM

I like it, too...


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Subject: RE: BS: Should Obama Run in '12???
From: Genie
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 07:24 PM

Mrrzzy, you mean Obama should pull a Bret Favre? ; D


Bobert, I agree that the "Supremes" have screwed us all - including most of the "Tea Partiers," who won't even allow themselves to see that. But that THE most important reason why I want a Democrat in office for the next 6 to 10 years.   

As I said above, I wish Obama would ACT as though he expected to be a one-termer and get done what needs to be done and what can be done in the next two years.   Ironically, history might have been kinder to GWB if he hadn't had a second term than it's likely to be since he did have one.   But that's not the main point.   There's a great likelihood that Obama will lose in 2012 if he tacks to the 'middle' and tries to play nice in the sandbox with the Republicans who will keep shoving his face down into it.   The Republican base isn't going to support him under any circumstances and they've made him a lightning rod to energize their voters to get to the polls. If Obama's base isn't energized and supportive as they were in 2008, I don't think the M O R "independents" and blue dog Democrats will pull out a win for him.

But you're right that he and the Dems - especially the liberals - have a hard time getting a message out to the public uncontaminated. Even when Obama has a press conference or gives a speech or has a rally, what the "news" channels carry is mostly selected sound bites and talking head commentary.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should Obama Run in '12???
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 08:16 PM

...followed with yet another evening of Republican attack ads... Have you seen the one with the woman walkin' thru the grocery store complaining how "the government" is trying to tell her what she can and can not buy??? The message is clear: (Obama's) government is meddling in yer affairs!!! Horrors...

This kind of ad is all about making the current (think Obama here) government's intrusion into your freedom... This ad is still being run every night of the week...

Problem is that the government isn't doin' that stuff... But if you show the commercial every day for months what sets in to folks thinkerators is that this government (Obama's) is out to get you...

The larger problem is that this commercial is being funded by whom??? Who knows???

The even larger problem is that those of us on the progressive side see this ad as Karl REove bullshit yet we don't have the big corporate donors to buy ads to refute it...

That's really what it comes down to here... People have these wierd ideas about what the government is trying to do to them because the corporations want people to be scared of the current (Obama's) government and the progressives don't have the financial means to fight back... I mean, on the $$$$ side, Boss Hog wins a 100 times out of a 100...

That sucks big time and will only get our country in worse shape with way too many people absorbing Boss Hog's message...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Should Obama Run in '12???
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 08:50 PM

I predicted it about Coke, too, so let's see!


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Subject: RE: BS: Should Obama Run in '12???
From: kendall
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 07:38 PM

He could always start another war to guarantee a second term; it worked for Bush.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should Obama Run in '12???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 08:17 PM

Abso-fuckin'-lutely, Kendall! A new war IS THE guaranteed way of getting re-elected in the USA. Just start a sudden shooting war with Iran about 6 months or less prior to the election in 2012. Kick it off by having an American ship in the Gulf get "sunk by Iran"...or through some other even much worse "terrorist" incident that kills Americans and gets blamed on Iran. These things are easily accomplished by various covert means. The country would rush to rally around the flag in a frenzy of patriotic fury, Obama would be re-elected handily, and the country would move from being merely waist or chest deep in the Big Muddy to being in up to its eyeballs or maybe beyond....

I'm not saying that WILL happen. I'm making no predictions. I'm simply saying that if it did happen, Obama would get re-elected handily as a consequence...and the country would go several steps further down the slippery slope to damnation and perdition.


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Subject: RE: BS: Should Obama Run in '12???
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 08:47 PM

After some reconsideration, I have abandoned my thinking that Obama should declare he isn't going to run in '12... I don't know what got into me but it has passed...

I mean, I guess I was just hoping that that might force the Repubs to be part of this government but it won't... The Repubs are just going to be Repubs... They know how to win elections but they really are clueless on the governing side...

It's no wonder that none of the Repubs are stepping up to be on the House Appropriations Committee... They can talk the talk but scared to death to walk the walk... So that committee is like a radiation pit for Repubs... Beohner might have to sacrifice a few of them by forcing them to be on the committee... Yeah, easy to talk about cutting spending and quite another to be the one who votes to take away that federal money for their district...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Should Obama Run in '12???
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Nov 10 - 09:03 PM

Yes, what I don't understand is why not running would allow him to accomplish actual things. Can someone splain to Looooooooooooocy?


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