BS: Anyone Know ancient art?

Subject: BS: Anyone Know ancient art?
From: olddude
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 02:28 PM

I know a little bit about art but I am not good at ancient art. I bought these for 5 bucks in a local sale. The guy was a real collector and had some roman works etc ... mind you real stuff not copies .. had these for many years .   I think these two are Phoenician and real .. it just has that look but I am unsure. If they are important they will be donated to a museum as I will not sell them or keep them. Any guesses. I know some of you are very good with art.

phoenician

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Know ancient art?
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 02:59 PM

Definetly Asian At first glance I would say Indian but it could be further east.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Know ancient art?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 03:08 PM

I think more Thailand or Burma

more details needed

size
material
pic of the back side

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Know ancient art?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 03:11 PM

definitely the sitting buddah


http://www.redbubble.com/people/nicholaspr/art/1152390-3-sitting-buddha

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Know ancient art?
From: olddude
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 03:13 PM

Size is approx 6 inches high 4 inches wide. The back side I would have to dismount them from the frame. It is a sandstone, I can see faint traces of where it had some paint of a blue type centuries ago. I am unsure if those images are of Buddha or Shiva

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Know ancient art?
From: olddude
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 03:13 PM

Vam I agree sitting Buddha now that you found it

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Know ancient art?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 03:20 PM

They look like Buddhas to me. I don't think the Phoenicians were Buddhist.

But I think they're worth more than $5 even if they're recent fakes. You can't find any decent garden sculpture for $5 even if it's made from plaster or concrete. I've looked.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Know ancient art?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 03:26 PM

hhmmm I am not finding any shiva stone carvings with the legs crossed in lotus. Also finding many sitting buddha images with the small figures on either side.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Know ancient art?
From: olddude
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 03:39 PM

Jim
the Phoenicians sure were Buddhists along with many other religions

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Know ancient art?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 03:58 PM

To be perfectly honest with you they appear to be very similar and possibly moulded rather than carved... however that is purely an opinion based on what I personally see in the pic. I believe they may have been made for the tourist market and are copies rather than the real thing....... please let me know if you find out for sure... best way is to take them to the museum. Best wishes, Mike.

Scroll down when you get to this site and see similar things.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Know ancient art?
From: olddude
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 04:09 PM

You could be right Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Know ancient art?
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 04:12 PM

Buddhists possibly late in their empire. They declined about 300 BC, and Siddartha Gautama live around 560-480 BC (I think). But their influence clearly extended into the Indus Valley where they surely picked up some Hindu materials and/or proclivities.

Really cool stuff olddude. Certainly worth way more than 5 bucks.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Know ancient art?
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 04:13 PM

Yeah, these look to be castings rather than carvings by looking at the edges of them... Prolly knockoffs but, hey???

When I took art history the first semester went from the beginning of time up to the 19th century and the second semester the last 100 or so years so we didn't really spend a lot of time back then so I really can't help much except to guess that they are from Thialand which pumps out alot of stuff... I have some of it myself...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Know ancient art?
From: olddude
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 04:20 PM

The edges do look sharp so I suspect you guys are right. However when I look under the loupe .. I can see sandstone and faint traces of material and weathering which is throwing me. They certainly could be pressed and artificially weathered .. either way .. pretty cool .. I will get them looked at but I suspect copy. Another problem I see is the guy took the time to mount them, he has pencil marks on the bottom where he cataloged them for some reason ... So maybe special ordered copies ... dunno

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Know ancient art?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 04:40 PM

Agree with Georgian Silver and TIA. Definitely Buddhist, late. Look like copies, which are very common and sold from India to the far East.

Definitely not Phoenician.

The Phoenicians did not have the Buddhist religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Know ancient art?
From: olddude
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 04:57 PM

Do you remember the taliban blowing up the standing Buddah on the cliff? That was created by the Phoenician empire

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Know ancient art?
From: olddude
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 05:21 PM

Buddism came to the middle east through the silk road 11th century, there were as many as 5000 monasteries from Iraq to Afghanistan alone

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Know ancient art?
From: Amos
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 05:54 PM

Which never would have happened without the domestication of camels...


A

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Know ancient art?
From: olddude
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 06:02 PM

LOL, correct Amos. If I get a chance I will take a picture of my Shiva. He is doing the dance on the monk thing. It is 31 inches tall, copper (loss wax method) from the 12-14th century. That one is the real deal as I had it authenticated by a big auction house. It will go to a museum upon my demise as I won't sell it. I should as I could use the money, but I won't. Shiva is the god of destruction, but not in the blow em up sense but in the destruction of man's ignorance .. I kinda like that

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Know ancient art?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 06:04 PM

I can't offer much of an opinion on those pieces, but a place to launch a study might be at Witcombe Art History

I spent some considerable time at the site a few years back when I first decided there was some sort of hole in my education, and found it quite helpful in finding periods and styles interesting enough (to me) to move on to other places.

It may require you to do some poking about to find things similar to your current pieces, but it's a pretty broad-ranging resource.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Know ancient art?
From: Amergin
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 06:15 PM

I knew and OLD Art once....never an ANCIENT one....this was many years ago....he would have been ancient now though if he was still living. He was in the Navy in the Pacific theater. His ship was one of the ones shelling Iwo Jima.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Know ancient art?
From: olddude
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 06:50 PM

LOL, Art Thieme is just an antique, not ancient ...

so I go to take a picture of my shiva. Yup it is gone, I text my youngest. "did you take my shiva perhaps" ... I get "yes daddy I love it thank you"   LOL ... ok I guess LOL KIDZ

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Know ancient art?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 06:53 PM

The pieces shown are not Phoenician. I agree with Donuel and Virginia Tam in thinking them Indian/Asia. I have postage stamps from the area with similar poses. Whether they are ancient or not is another story. You would have to take the pieces to a specialist to make that determination.

Olddude, Q is correct, the Phoenicians did not practice Buddhism. The had virtually the same Semitic pantheon as other Canaanites, Assyrians and Babylonians, with local names. Chief among them were Baal and Astarte, familiar names from the Hebrew Bible.

Damn! I knew that some day my BA in History(ANE) would come in handy.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Know ancient art?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 06:55 PM

I think what you've got might be called a votive tablet, votive plaque, votive amulet, or votive stele (sometimes spelled stela; plural=stelae). Besides Buddha, another word you might search for is Bodhisattva.

I'd recommend searching with Google Images. I've been doing that for a while now. Here are the most interesting objects I've found so far, but they're still not very close to what you've got:

http://www.ancientresource.com/lots/asian-artifacts/liao-dynasty-buddhas.html

http://www.thebuddhasface.co.uk/thai-buddhist-votive-tablets-122-c.asp

I'd do more, but the computer I'm using right now isn't very conducive to fast downloading of images.

Here's a sample search results page.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Know ancient art?
From: olddude
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 06:58 PM

John and Jim ... Ahhh lights went on .. Thank you .. so right ...
good idea's ...

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Know ancient art?
From: olddude
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 07:11 PM

What I am thinking is sandstone could be terra cotta or clay for sure ... wow

Now this is the exact image only this one is set in relief
terra cotta

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Know ancient art?
From: olddude
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 07:16 PM

There is a pencil mark on the back of the frame with dimensions for framing and a date of framing to 04/21/38 so if it is a reproduction it is a darn old one

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Know ancient art?
From: olddude
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 07:44 PM

I like this also

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Know ancient art?
From: olddude
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 08:00 PM

Hey Jim
check out my ancient confucius ... this one is the real banana. It has been checked by experts

confucius

And my kid hasn't walked off with it yet LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Know ancient art?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 08:31 PM

Illus. from Brooklyn Museum- shows Buddha with two disciples. Very common. I think this is what you have, but it is not sharply done, so could be a very similarly shaped votive shows Tara with two she has helped). Can be bought in any Asian bazaar. As to age, yestrday or old, must be shown to an expert.

And again, the Phoenicians (lost a capitol city at Tyre, and another at Carthage) were not Buddhists. If you don't believe me, believe Sunset John.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Know ancient art?
From: olddude
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 08:43 PM

I believe ya, I was thinking Persian or along those lines. I get confused easily as history outside of the US in not my forte

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Know ancient art?
From: olddude
Date: 18 Nov 10 - 09:03 PM

I see a single 600 year old one selling for around 500 bucks so it doesn't look like they are all that rare new or old

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Know ancient art?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 03:04 PM

Workmanship, provenance, rarity, collector interest. All needed to run up the price of an object.

Saw that a Batman comic sold for almost $500,000. Only the last two apply. Made me think of the old cliche, 'no accounting for tastes'.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone Know ancient art?
From: olddude
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 03:07 PM

Did you ever watch that show on TV about Hollywood treasures .. Holy cow, what was it - 500K for Mary Poppins cloth bag! ... wish I had worked for the movie industry ... they would throw out the props when they were done filming ... holy cow