BS: START Treaty Opponents unAmerican???

Subject: Obit: START Treaty Opponents unAmerican???
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 10:17 PM

Hmmmmmm????

Seems as if alot of things that Russia is doing to aid the US in Bush's Afghanistan War are things that have come from a better working relationship between out two countries...

So, here's the question... If the US fails in ratifying the START treaty, which last time was ratified with 94 "yea" votes in the Senate, will that force Russia to reconsider the things they are helping US with in not only Afghanistan but with Iran??? If so, then why wouldn't the Repub Senators who are so eager to stick Obama in the eye not be considered to be unAmerican???

Can any of the righties here explain this to me???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: START Treaty Opponents unAmerican???
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 11:04 PM

Obviously, the last time the Dems were willing to work with the Repubs.
This time......well you can see what's happening.

Subject: RE: BS: START Treaty Opponents unAmerican???
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 22 Nov 10 - 11:28 PM

What is American or unAmerican or as I am UK British or unBritish?

I'm certainly not saying one may not love one's country or feel there is much to be grateful for but head at the moment is saying such terms can be badly cultist

Anyone explain to me?

Subject: RE: BS: START Treaty Opponents unAmerican???
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 01:29 AM

No.

Subject: RE: BS: START Treaty Opponents unAmerican???
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 08:35 AM

Not un-American at all-

Stupid BuShite Republican obstructionism , fear-mongering and lies appear to be supremely American by observing the results of the recent election.

Why do their latest idiocies come as a surprise?

Subject: RE: BS: START Treaty Opponents unAmerican???
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 09:36 AM

Un-American? No. I'd say it's typically American. It's just another form of the real American pastime: the dick measuring contest.

Subject: RE: BS: START Treaty Opponents unAmerican???
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 10:41 AM

Everything this nation does is American so the "unamerican" question is at its core devoid of meaning

However:

The white ring owners and their political construct of the right wing have always fought for a plantation economy. The confederacy may have lost the civil war but they have won the financial war.

It is totally American to sacrifice a nation and its people for the good of the few. To block unemployment insurance or push to let the rich go virtually tax free or make the middle class pay for the gambling debts of billionaires. Its all American because this country allows it.

T Roosevelt and FDR tried to put an end to the Gilded Age and Wall st. abuses. It took 20 years to roll back nearly each and every reform that protected the country.

It may be treasonous to risk the nation's security and expose itself to intentional nuclear threat without a trust and verify treaty but as long as some political advantage can be made to appear that Obama has failed at every vote where the Republicans vote 0 yes and unaminously no, then this is what America has become.

If the republicans can force Obama to concede all leadership of this nation to a single obstructionist senator on every topic then the nation may suffer, but the prize of induced failure of a man and a country is the Republican trophy.

IF Obama holds firm the Republicans will not pass a new debt ceiling or a budget which will cause a goverment shutdown and a nation that declares bankruptcy and defaults on the world stage to meet its debt. This will cause a second more deep and deadly crash.

This is about as extreme a showdown as the country can have.

IF the SALT treaty is not passed then Alexander Putin emerges the powerful victor with the help of a single symbloic Senator Kyle.

.

Playing chicken with the future of a country is dangerous and immature, but a fraction of the fortunes of billionaires is at stake. Right now that is what the right wing construct tells the nation is most important.


Is all this American? ITs as American as the civil war.

Subject: RE: BS: START Treaty Opponents unAmerican???
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 11:18 AM

There are points both in favor and against THIS START treaty. The President, by stating that "it is unamerican to oppoase what I want." ( Gee, wasn't Bush criticised for that?) is stifling all discussion of this treaty.


So I guess what Bush did is OK, as long as it is Obama doing it???

Subject: RE: BS: START Treaty Opponents unAmerican???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 11:45 AM

Bruce, Bobert is not the President. Obama is. Have you heard this President say "unAmerican?"

Subject: RE: BS: START Treaty Opponents unAmerican???
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 11:55 AM

I have heard him claim that. Do you want me to find the exact quote? And will you accept it if it is NOT from your pre-approved source?

Subject: RE: BS: START Treaty Opponents unAmerican???
From: Stringsinger
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 12:03 PM

I disagree that the term UnAmerican should be used at all. START opposition is a form of Republican greed, power hungry appropriation, callous disregard for authentic American security, rooted in Wall Street corruption, military malfeasance and general craziness.
There is no reasonable excuse for this opposition except power moves.

The true American patriots are people like Julian Assange, Micheal Moore, Cindy Sheehan, Jeremy Scahill, Naomi Klein, Code Pink and those who have spoken out against the imperialist designs of an out-of-control government controlled by corporations.

Subject: RE: BS: START Treaty Opponents unAmerican???
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 12:05 PM

Is it unAmerican to be dumb, selfish and greedy?

Subject: RE: BS: START Treaty Opponents unAmerican???
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 12:14 PM

"callous disregard for authentic American security,"

This presumes that THIS START Treaty is a contribution to US security- there is real debate on this, which the President is NOT allowing.




"Is it unAmerican to be dumb, selfish and greedy? "

You meqan like the unions have been in pushing their own interests against the welfare of the rest of the populartion of this country?

Having paid to get Obama elected, they have more than recouped their costs by what he has given them, out of the pockets of the taxpayers such as myself.

Subject: RE: BS: START Treaty Opponents unAmerican???
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 01:06 PM

Ladies and Gentlemen this issue far exceeds one nuclear treaty with Russia and all our NATO allies.

The 99% likelihood of complete Republican obstruction of the treaty, the debt ceiling, the budget and the financial reform we need to keep from falling to total default and bankruptcy is the most serious challenge this nation has seen since WW 2. There is a coming gun slinging showdown. There is a looming ultimate game of chicken.

I would compare the jeopardy we are in due to the obstructionist gamble by Republicans to the Apollo 13 mission.

My fellow Americans, We have a problem.

Only its not 3 crew members but the entire population and global economy with the exception of billionaires. It is like our entire country is an exploded spacecraft that is damaged so badly we may not survive. NASA had the advantage of everyone working together to solve the problems with a united effort. They had to make new parts and invent new methods of doing things including a manual burn for course corrections.

This nation has a house divided and will not stand for another 4 critical years of making the destruction of a Presidency more important than the survival of the nation at large. IS the greatest mission we have the destruction of a president to usher in a Republican president in 2012? Is a real default of the American dollar worth it?

The fight ahead will in itself drain critical power and air.
The demand of the Republicans (the 0 vote gang) is to keep billionaires from paying anymore taxes than they do now and to roll them back further over time. They see an opportunity to hold all issues hostage and diminish or abolish social security, Medicare, welfare and all other entitlements and environmental progress.

This real and coming political war and its consequences may include new presidential orders, gov shutdown, loss of critical government workers and the fatal delay or entire loss of establsihing a new debt ceiling leadint to default resulting in the very real hyperinflation.

The FOX propaganda will claim that Obama is using virtual martial law and is trying to take over the country like Hitler. Social anguish, violence and demonstrations are in the offing. Some of the only tools to save us from a dreadful default collapse and the harm from extended government shut downs are presidential orders and in the extreme, the closing of Congress.



We have discussed many issues here from the terrorist attacks on our friends and citizens and the economic take over and the Supreme Court making corporations more alive and powerful than real people. We have discussed the economic take over by a tenth of one percent of Americans.
BUT this looming challenge will be the greatest stand off ever played and will lead to great harm for one or both sides, when only one side (the common good) could save our desperate Apollo 13 mission, the United States of America.

Subject: RE: BS: START Treaty Opponents unAmerican???
From: DougR
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 04:35 PM

The Republicans in the senate do not OPPOSE the Start Treaty. They just want more time to study the consequencies. Had the Democrats REALLY wanted to approve it, why didn't they? They've held the majority for the past two years and could pass anything they really wanted to.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: START Treaty Opponents unAmerican???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 05:11 PM

I've never heard anyone in this country call something unCanadian. Nor have I ever heard anything called unRussian, unDutch or unGerman. I laugh when I hear the expression "unAmerican". It's an expression that could only arise in a society that is lost in both paranoia and delusions of grandeur.

Subject: RE: BS: START Treaty Opponents unAmerican???
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 06:08 PM

The treaty should save both the Russians and EU (inc. NATO) some money. Who wants that? Therefore the opposition.

Subject: RE: BS: START Treaty Opponents unAmerican???
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 06:15 PM

More time, Dougie???

There have already been dozens of hearings on this treaty... If they need more time that is going to mean, as per usual, scraping the work that has been done and starting over with Russia...

Meanwhile, guess how we got fuel to out troops when Pakistan was blocking the tanker trucks???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: START Treaty Opponents unAmerican???
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 06:55 PM

DougR-
A simple majority hasn't been enough for the last couple of years. Haven't you noticed?

BB- What about the proposed treaty don't you like? I'm all ears.

Subject: RE: BS: START Treaty Opponents unAmerican???
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 07:19 PM

DougR- A simple majority hasn't been enough for the last couple of years. Haven't you noticed?

Wouldn't matter one iota if he'd noticed- his psychosis wouldn't allow assimilation of fact.

Subject: RE: BS: START Treaty Opponents unAmerican???
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 07:22 PM

THIS treaty ONLY limits the US, NOT the Russians. It restricts missile defence, which is REQUIRED to stop attacks by nations such as Iran and N. Korea.

Subject: RE: BS: START Treaty Opponents unAmerican???
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 07:45 PM

Oh, bill, bruce... Come out into the real world... This treaty follows the same basic framework that goes back to the days of Reagan... Fewer nukes per side and accountability thru verifiable inspections... No smokin' guns... No big conspiracies... No nuthin' other than the Repubs just don't want Obama to get anything as president...

In other words, the Repubs are perfectly willing to jeopardize nthe cooperation that Russia has been providing the US military in Afghanistan in order try to win more "no points"...

Tell ya' what, bruce... The Repubs may be going to the well one too many times... This is one area that they probably should just do as every Senate since Reagan when these things come along and just accept the fact that they do not rule the universe...

Stupid politics that have nothin' to do with this treaty...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: START Treaty Opponents unAmerican???
From: pdq
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 07:51 PM

The Ruskies ain't gonna drop a bomb on us and we ain't planning to drop a bomb on them.

That little dance between Kennedy and Castro proved that almost 50 years ago.

We have important things to worry about and this is just being used as a distraction.

Subject: RE: BS: START Treaty Opponents unAmerican???
From: artbrooks
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 08:11 PM

Read the Treaty. It restricts both parties. It makes no mention of missile defense.

Subject: RE: BS: START Treaty Opponents unAmerican???
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 09:15 PM

I've never heard anyone in this country call something unCanadian. Nor have I ever heard anything called unRussian, unDutch or unGerman. I laugh when I hear the expression "unAmerican". It's an expression that could only arise in a society that is lost in both paranoia and delusions of grandeur.

Cheers LH, I suspect you are right.

(although please don't take that mean there are not perfectly reasonable Americans, I've not made some American friends, etc.)

Subject: RE: BS: START Treaty Opponents unAmerican???
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 09:29 PM

Dear teenager,
There is so much you don't know and so much you think you know which is fiction its hard to know where to begin or if you really want to learn.

Why? because the use of filibuster is up 2000% A majority has never been in the senate since it takes more than a majority to pass a bill due to Senate rules put in place about 10 years ago. So a 1 Senator advantage is not a majority.


The day of reckoning is within the next 6 months. Seeing ahead on this issue of not just the treaty but the host of issues I listed above, is a scary sight. IF anyone thinks those issues are a distraction they will have a rude awakening soon enough.

Subject: RE: BS: START Treaty Opponents unAmerican???
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Nov 10 - 09:34 PM

I agree, Donuel... These games that the Repubs are playing will have real world consequences and then it will be "on them" to explain why they messed up... The honeymoon is about to end before it began if this is what the Repubs have in mind...

This could hurt our military...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: START Treaty Opponents unAmerican???
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 06:10 AM

P 17 section II of the protocols on- I looked for the numbers that would be the limits, and they are NOT included in the protocol....


http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/140047.pdf

Note the numbers and information is blank- THIS IS A DRAFT, and NOT the actual document.

Subject: RE: BS: START Treaty Opponents unAmerican???
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 06:21 AM

For Jon and LH, this is the first use of the term unAmerican I ever heard. Don't know if that's where the term originated.
Is it unAmerican for a man to wear a lady's dress in private?
Dear old J Edgar, how we miss him, along with Senator Joe, and all that cosy paranoia.

Subject: RE: BS: START Treaty Opponents unAmerican???
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 06:32 AM

Thanks John.

Subject: RE: BS: START Treaty Opponents unAmerican???
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 08:26 AM

Look at Article II of the Treaty itself. BB.

Subject: RE: BS: START Treaty Opponents unAmerican???
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 08:43 AM

And what are the PRESENT numbers on each side? My understanding is that the treaty does not have an effect on the Russians.

Subject: RE: BS: START Treaty Opponents unAmerican???
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 10:20 AM

These games that the Repubs are playing will have real world consequences and then it will be "on them" to explain why they messed up...

NOT.

They'll just open the flood gates on thre Republican River Of Bullshit, and the U.S. Boobocracy will believe 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: START Treaty Opponents unAmerican???
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 24 Nov 10 - 08:23 PM

BB-
Article I
1. Each Party shall reduce and limit its strategic offensive
arms in accordance with the provisions of this Treaty and
shall carry out the other obligations set forth in this Treaty
and its Protocol.

If all the treaty did was to improve security of existing Russian stockpiles, it would be a good thing. Are you still one of the left-over survivors of the Cold War who is going to carry on, regardless?