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BS: Ignorant young people

Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) 10 Dec 10 - 11:08 AM
Amos 10 Dec 10 - 12:43 PM
Bonzo3legs 10 Dec 10 - 01:10 PM
GUEST,999 10 Dec 10 - 01:11 PM
Little Hawk 10 Dec 10 - 01:13 PM
michaelr 10 Dec 10 - 01:27 PM
kendall 10 Dec 10 - 01:27 PM
mousethief 10 Dec 10 - 01:27 PM
Amergin 10 Dec 10 - 01:41 PM
Little Hawk 10 Dec 10 - 01:54 PM
Arthur_itus 10 Dec 10 - 03:29 PM
Greg F. 10 Dec 10 - 03:31 PM
Arthur_itus 10 Dec 10 - 03:33 PM
GUEST,999 10 Dec 10 - 03:39 PM
mauvepink 10 Dec 10 - 04:37 PM
pdq 10 Dec 10 - 06:07 PM
Bobert 10 Dec 10 - 06:17 PM
Smokey. 10 Dec 10 - 06:43 PM
pdq 10 Dec 10 - 07:18 PM
Smokey. 10 Dec 10 - 07:22 PM
Little Hawk 10 Dec 10 - 07:32 PM
akenaton 10 Dec 10 - 07:41 PM
Smokey. 10 Dec 10 - 08:36 PM
Bobert 10 Dec 10 - 09:02 PM
Teribus 11 Dec 10 - 02:50 AM
akenaton 11 Dec 10 - 04:03 AM
GUEST,Silas 11 Dec 10 - 04:42 AM
akenaton 11 Dec 10 - 04:56 AM
akenaton 11 Dec 10 - 05:26 AM
Teribus 11 Dec 10 - 05:31 AM
Teribus 11 Dec 10 - 05:33 AM
Arthur_itus 11 Dec 10 - 05:39 AM
GUEST,Silas 11 Dec 10 - 06:00 AM
Teribus 11 Dec 10 - 06:16 AM
GUEST,Silas 11 Dec 10 - 06:23 AM
Bonzo3legs 11 Dec 10 - 06:32 AM
Ed T 11 Dec 10 - 08:51 AM
Teribus 11 Dec 10 - 08:52 AM
Ed T 11 Dec 10 - 12:13 PM
Ed T 11 Dec 10 - 12:16 PM
Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) 11 Dec 10 - 12:56 PM
michaelr 11 Dec 10 - 01:03 PM
GUEST,FloraG 11 Dec 10 - 01:17 PM
SINSULL 11 Dec 10 - 02:32 PM
GUEST,999 11 Dec 10 - 02:35 PM
theleveller 11 Dec 10 - 03:24 PM
GUEST,999 11 Dec 10 - 03:52 PM
Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) 11 Dec 10 - 04:11 PM
GUEST,999 11 Dec 10 - 04:17 PM
Smokey. 11 Dec 10 - 04:32 PM

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Subject: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 11:08 AM

It was the son of Pink Floyd guitarist David Gilmour that climbed the Cenotaph during the student protests yesterday. Those who are commemorated by the Cenotaph died to protect the very freedoms that allow the people of Britain the right to protest. Royal protection officers were seconds from drawing their weapons after the Duchess of Cornwall was physically attacked by rioters. Camilla was prodded in the ribs with a stick through the open window of their Rolls Royce as she and Charles were driven to the Royal Variety Performance at the London Palladium.


In a grotesque insult to those who championed the very freedoms which allowed them to stage their protest, the baying rabble of masked and hooded student thugs showed their true colours. They defiled a statue of Winston Churchill by urinating on it, ripped flags from the Cenotaph ­– the nation's sacred memorial to those who died in the name of liberty – then lit fires and sprayed slogans on the ground in the shadow of the Houses of Parliament. The physical victims of their violence, inevitably, were the police. Bottles of urine were hurled on a day when democracy was held in contempt. Windows were smashed at the Supreme Court building. Even the Christmas tree in Trafalgar Square – a symbol of peace and goodwill – became a focus for senseless vandalism.


This is the result of not dealing with these yobs the first time round, if they are students they should be thrown out of the education system. I would like to have seen the police use rubber bullets and water hoses on these thugs. I doubt many of them even care about the tuition fees issue. If they did, and they could read, they would have seen that the proposed terms are completely reasonable.


Do you still support them ?
    Story: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/rock-stars-son-faces-quiz-over-cenotaph-protest-2156530.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Amos
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 12:43 PM

if they are students they should be thrown out of the education system

Oh, that would larn them good, wouldn't it!!

I have no dog in this fight, but I think the issues of the tuition protests ought to be articulated clearly in any discussion, in place of jingoistic histrionics and impassioned rhetoric without any insight.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 01:10 PM

issues/ articulated /jingoistic histrionics /impassioned rhetoric/ without any insight.

It's Friday night - simple English please!


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: GUEST,999
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 01:11 PM

I don`t understand the point of this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 01:13 PM

Right on, Amos. What needs to be discussed is not the excessive behaviour of a few angry young people who instinctively lash out at various symbols of authority when an irresponsible government robs the general public blind....

No. What needs to be discussed is the actual and very serious issues that have generated the protests.

I seem to recall that a lot of things got smashed and a lot of aristocrats (many of whom were essentially innocent people in themselves) got attacked by the common people during the French and Russian revolutions too. And there were powerful reasons for that. We need to look at the reasons for the protests, and they are very substantial reasons. This huge raise in tuition fees is outrageous. I think the ordinary public are being made to pay for massive irresponsibility in high places and they're being made to pay bills that THEY DID NOT GENERATE. The bills were generated, I think, by fraudulent banking practices by the most wealthy elements in society. That's why people are so angry about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: michaelr
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 01:27 PM

Right. It's about the have-nots being squeezed by the haves - a centuries-old tradition in England. Without massive displays of public outrage, the politicians aren't going to get the message.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: kendall
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 01:27 PM

Amos speaks perfect English, and he is right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: mousethief
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 01:27 PM

And the most wealthy elements are still raking in the dosh hand over fist, and THEY can afford to send their kids to any school they want. Welcome to the new feudalism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Amergin
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 01:41 PM

I support violence when directed at the Oligarchy and their hired thugs with badges and batons.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 01:54 PM

Me too. They specialize in it, so why should it be such a surprise that they get some of it back now and then?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 03:29 PM

Are you lot condoning voilence against the police?

If so, you are a disgrace.

I pay my taxes for the police to keep law and order in this country.

I do not want to see anybody get injured, but If you break the law, then I expect the police to sort you out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 03:31 PM

It was the son of Pink Floyd guitarist David Gilmour that climbed the Cenotaph during the student protests yesterday...

We don't need no education
We don't need no thought control


Sowing dragon's teeth, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 03:33 PM

Lock him up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: GUEST,999
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 03:39 PM

OFF with his head.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: mauvepink
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 04:37 PM

I pay my taxes for the police to keep law and order in this country.

... but not at any cost? Most Police will stay within the confines of the law in exercising their duties and that is right and proper. But if they step outside they too are also breaking the law and should be given due process.

Sadly the Police are often given the harsh environments of dealing with political fallout - look at what happened in the Miner's strikes - and you always get over zealous policing. But I have never been in that environment of seeing a mob coming at me, throwing bottles of urine and petrol at me, and throwing bricks. I think I could be over zealous and heavy handed in my own defence if I had to be. I hope I am never put to that test.

The attacks on Charles and Camilla were despicable. The attacks on the Police were despicable. The attacks on innocent people are despicable too. There can never be a place in a civilised society for such anarchy and lawlessness can there? On either side?

I am sure we will see lots more as other cuts are made and we see the weak and vulnerable attacked by a policies who seem intent on rewarding loyal workers with the sack, the sick and the infirm with more hardship, and the elderly and young sent toward poverty. All this at a time when the rich continue to get richer and bonuses protected.

The world is far from fair even in so called civilised nations :-(

mp


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: pdq
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 06:07 PM

"...policies who seem intent on rewarding loyal workers with the sack, the sick and the infirm with more hardship, and the elderly and young sent toward poverty." ~ MP

If we really need somebody to blame, try the Baby Boom Generation.

They are the alltime spoiled brats. They demanded the best of everything all the time and put the tab on credit.

Their children and grandchildren will be paying for their good times. The US National Debt is now about 15 trillion dollars and growing at a faster rate than ever.

The Boomers are also going to crash the Social Security System in just a few years from now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 06:17 PM

The problem here is one of communication...

People don't like being left entirely outta the loop in a free and democratic society...

Same here in the US with the Democrats in Congress up in arms because they too were left out...

I believe that if the students had been brought into the discussion rather than getting the bum's rush and our-way-or-the-highway then the outcome would have been very much difference...

But people get power and it goes to their heads and they forget what democracy is all about... That is arrogance...

The Brits are getting exactly what they are getting... So is Obama... Same deal, different issues and different sides of the pond but same deal...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Smokey.
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 06:43 PM

Back when the UK was exporting more than it was importing, about 5% of school leavers went to universities. Now we are importing much more than we are exporting and about 50% of school leavers are going into higher education. Hardly anyone is employed in a wealth-producing capacity and personal expectations are coaxed ever higher with the consumerism which is supposedly 'helping the economy'. No wonder we're up Shit Creek.

Someone should explain that to the students..


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: pdq
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 07:18 PM

"...about 50% of school leavers are going into higher education..." ~ Smokey

That is an insane policy. Perhps 10-20% to college, the rest should go to trade schools where they learn all they need to know about current "in-demand" jobs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Smokey.
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 07:22 PM

Blair did that to make the unemployment figures look better. To be fair, he inherited the unemployment from Thatcher, but it was a daft way to deal with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 07:32 PM

In Cuba all education is provided to the entire public, right through university, and free of charge. Socialism. That is a society that believes in investing in the future of its own citizens...and for that reason it has been under siege, in effect, by the USA since 1961.

Any nation that makes education universal and free to all its citizens is led by a government that is, at least when it comes to education, wise and idealistic. I know of no other nation in the entire western hemisphere that has provided free and universal education to its whole public. Only Cuba. And I've been there. And, yes, they are well educated and highly intelligent people, so the policy has borne very good results.

They don't have all our expensive toys, though! ;-) I guess there's a price to pay for everything, isn't there? Given the social maturity and excellence of the young Cubans I met, I think they have benefited greatly from a government that has devoted itself to genuine public responsibility rather than to promoting material excess and addictive consumerism for the sake of profiting an oligarchy of huge corporations.


****

It's not that I sympathize with people who attack police and who do violence. I don't. What I do sympathize with, however, is people who have the courage to actively resist gross corruption and oppression when it is inflicted upon them.

There are always some innocent people who get hurt when that sort of situation arises. And they're always on both sides of any social struggle. Lots of them on both sides. Most cops are innocent of wrong intention. Most protestors are innocent of wrong intention. A few of each side are not innocent at all, but most are just caught up in the consequences. It is foolish to imagine that everyone on one side of a great social issue is evil and that everyone on the other side is good, and I don't imagine that for a moment...nor do I approve of evil acts by EITHER side.

But....oppression must still be resisted. Regardless. The trouble is that most people don't really understand how to resist it, so they act impulsively, and many mistakes will get made...both by the cops and by the protestors.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 07:41 PM

Thats right Smokey, but you dont expect politicians to tell that to students or anyone else do you?

We are all waiting for something to happen, we cant believe what has already happened.
But we can fight back....without being slaughtered.
The system's dependence on the internet is our greatest weapon, might is no longer right
Marx said that capitalism would destroy itself, and in Global capitalism's choice to abandon labour and invest in technology, it has exposed its Achilles Heel
Comparitively few people in a concerted attack can bring down even the most well protected financial sites
Capitalists beware!......Cyberwar is coming!


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Smokey.
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 08:36 PM

you dont expect politicians to tell that to students or anyone else do you?

It's a great pity, what with all this extra education people are getting, that they can't work it out for themselves.

I dont expect much at all of politicians, to be honest, regardless of what they call themselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Dec 10 - 09:02 PM

Yeah, Ake... There was a time when government could keep people in the dark... And I expect that they know that and they will do everything in their power to maintain exactly that but...

...too late... The horse is already well outta the barn...

Power to the people and power to the information age!!!

And good point, LH... Like I said, "You won't find China making it harder for its folks to get... Do the math... Math??? US in 1970??? 1st... US now??? 23rd...

Like I said, do the math...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 02:50 AM

"It was the son of Pink Floyd guitarist David Gilmour that climbed the Cenotaph during the student protests yesterday..."

Best comment I read on this story referring to David Gilmour's adopted son was:

"All in all he's just another PRICK in Whitehall"


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 04:03 AM

A stupid action Teribus....but these things happen when people are angry.....most wartime heroics are performed when the balance of the mind is affected.

The old warriors have no relevence to the young folks of today, by and large they have been taught by this system, that all that matters is self advancement, and the "we deserve it all ideology", the two sides of the "liberal" capitalist coin.

All the chickens are coming home to roost...we encouraged higher education for all to avoid huge numbers of unemployed young people...purely as an act of political expediency....to save the skins of successive governments.
Like everything else in this system, it has become unsustainable
The people have come to expect and rely on the "crumbs from the rich man's table",and when these crumbs stop falling young folk are no longer prepare just to quietly lie down and starve.

If capitalism is to survive in the West those who run it must quickly come up with some other way of motivating the populace, the most likely being some form of Fascism.

Times have changed and the people have at last the means to hurt the rich who rule them, without the risk of being obliterated by force of arms.
Capitalism should have been part of the evolutionary process, but instead it was, and is still, used as a means of exploitation.
Expect to reap the whirlwind!


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 04:42 AM

"Do you still support them ?"

Oh yes. 100%


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 04:56 AM

Que?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 05:26 AM

I dont think that anyone still seriously considers that we live in a proper democracy.
The events of the last few years should have made it evident to everyone that we do not.
Only one thing basically matters to those in control...the continuation of the terminally sick capitalist system.
Every sacrifice which we are being asked to make, is to that end.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 05:31 AM

1. "What needs to be discussed is not the excessive behaviour of a few angry young people who instinctively lash out at various symbols of authority when an irresponsible government robs the general public blind."

The irresponsible Government who robbed the general public blind was voted out of office last May, leaving the present Government to sort out the mess that ZANULiebour "Socialists" left the country in.

2. "This huge raise in tuition fees is outrageous."

Tuition fees were introduced by the last Government in the "Glorious Year of 1997" Remember "Education, edgeoohcashun, edukayshun". Then the same crowd doubled the fees in 2004, and then got one mendacious, self-serving, "brown hatter" Peter Mandelson to get another mendacious, self-serving, "brown hatter" Lord John Browne to look into tuition fees and low and behold they needed to be tripled. Mind you taking a look at costs, services and overheads over the last 13 years by what factor have they all increased, I doubt if any have actually gone down apart from fees paid to performers in "Folk Clubs".

3. "I think the ordinary public are being made to pay for massive irresponsibility in high places and they're being made to pay bills that THEY DID NOT GENERATE."

That has always been the case and applies to every single taxpayer rich and poor since taxes were introduced. The introduction of tuition fees was supposed to be a means by which those who benefitted directly paid towards it, which oddly enough seems quite fair to me. And if they are going to pay towards it then the amount they pay should reflect true costs otherwise the "ordinary public" the author of the quote above seems to be so concerned about have to pay even more.

4. "The bills were generated, I think, by fraudulent banking practices by the most wealthy elements in society."

Huh?? What on earth has how banks conduct their business got to do with tuition fees? As far as I can see they are completely divorced, one having nothing whatsoever to do with the other.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 05:33 AM

"It's about the have-nots being squeezed by the haves - a centuries-old tradition in England."

About as idiotic a statement as ever I have seen in print - Tell me michaelr which "have" is squeezing you? Or are you, michaelr, a "have" and if so who are you squeezing? Since leaving school and starting work, right up until the present day I have paid taxes, mortgages and yes university tuition fees for my children. In all that time michaelr I have not once been "squeezed" by a "have" – Now I admire tradition as much as anyone, but could you please explain how I have managed to evade any experience of the one you mention?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 05:39 AM

Well said Teribus


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 06:00 AM

Well, Teribus, not so much now, after a Labour goernment of low interest rates, but during the eighties high interest rates certainly squeezed us plebs at the benefit of the already rich.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 06:16 AM

Well Silas I suppose that all depends on whether or not you were a spender pleb, or a saver pleb. All those "high interest" years benefitted the plebs who saved as well. Another group who benefitted were all the pension funds that even the spending plebs were contributing towards.

"Back when the UK was exporting more than it was importing, about 5% of school leavers went to universities. Now we are importing much more than we are exporting and about 50% of school leavers are going into higher education." – Smokey

"That is an insane policy. Perhaps 10-20% to college, the rest should go to trade schools where they learn all they need to know about current "in-demand" jobs." –pdq

"Blair did that to make the unemployment figures look better." – Smokey


And thus without thinking the thing through Tony Blair and ZANULiebour swamped the further education system of the UK with people who did not want to be there for an education but to obtain their EMA (Education Maintenance Allowance).

The findings and recommendations of the Browne Review which brought in the new levels of tuition fees called for:

•        More investment should be available for Higher Education
•        Student choice should be increased
•        Everyone who has the potential should be able to benefit from Higher Education
•        No-one should have to pay until they start work
•        When payments are made they should be affordable
•        Part-time students should be treated the same as full-time students for the costs of learning


The main recommendations of the report were:

•        Removing the cap of £3290 a year that universities could charge for tuition
•        Raising the point at which tuition fees are paid back from £15,000 to £21,000 a year
•        Loans to only be paid back at 9% of any income earned over £21,000
•        Part-time students would have equal entitlement to tuition under the 'Student Finance Plan'


Now for "little" Alfie going into furvver edgukayshun at the age of 16 'cos he's pissed off at skule the Guvvermint pays him is £30 per week EMA for as long as he is on the course and actually attending it (Correct that to he gets it provided the lecturer can be arsed to note whether the little darling is there or not, path of least resistance is to tick him present whether he is there or not, lecturer has an easy life and "little" Alfie gets his dosh, win-win as long as you are not a working taxpayer)

Now if "little" Alfie wants to go to University he must take out a "loan" to cover tuition fees he had to do this before but now it is for £9000 per year instead of £3290.

I put the word loan in parenthesis because is it in fact a loan?

If "little" Alfie completes his course gets his degree or whatever qualification and then just sponges of the benefits system for the rest of his life he does not have to repay one brass farthing of the £27,000 he borrowed.

On the other hand if "little" Alfie comes out of Uni and gets a job that pays £25,000 per year "little" Alfie starts to repay his "loan" at the rate of £6.92 per week (What's that? 3 pints?). Alfie ploughs on diligently and through incremental raises and promotions finds himslf on £35,000 per year, his repayments now become £24.23 per week (A Take-away and a bottle of wine). Alfie gets "head-hunted" by the competition because he is good at his job and his new employer pays him £45,000 per year, his repayments now are £41.53 per week hardly breaking the bank is it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 06:23 AM

Not really mate, it depended on wether you had a mortgage or not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 06:32 AM

"hardly breaking the bank is it"

Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 08:51 AM

In most countries, new generation of youth have generally been "better off" financially and better educated than their parents. That is, until now. What about the future?

Some posters seem to be mixing up democracy and capitalism, as if one requires the other. Is that true? What would you suggest, if you could design a system with the joint benefits of socialism and capitalism? Is there a country today that "got it right", or at a minimum is heading in the right direction?

I have travelled to Cuba yearly for the past 30. I have close friends who live there. Yes, Cuba has excelled in eliminating barriers to education and health. My observation (confirmed by private discussions with Cuban Friends) is (unfortunately) the cost has been the loss of many freedoms many who live in western countries hold dear. I suspect the "educated" Cuban youth will seek greater freedoms. Will that be successful? I hope so.

What is the social impact of Communist China's experiment with capitalism?


"The Boomers are also going to crash the Social Security System in just a few years from now:".

As if that wasn't predictible for many many years, that there would be a big pulse of "Boomers" that would at this point retire.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 08:52 AM

And if you had a mortgage Silas did you benefit from the increase in the value of your property?

From personal experience:

1st Property sold for about 20 times what I bought it for (Note what I bought it for was not what I paid for it)

2nd Property sold for double what I paid for it (In this instance what I paid for it was what I bought it for)

3rd Property now worth three times what I paid for it.

Hey Silas and all this time according to the likes of yourself and michaelr I have been being "squeezed" by haves and shelling out all my money to increase the lot of the rich - Bullshit all the while I have been paying a mortgage I have not been paying rent, all the while I have been paying a mortgage I have been spending my money to ultimately benefit me and my family.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 12:13 PM

Many males in Bolivia will now have two years to enjoy retirement, before they die (according to the stats). :

Bolivia


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Ed T
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 12:16 PM

Sorry, that last statement should have been four years to enjoy retirement, not two:

..."life expectancy is only 62 years for men and 65 years for women"


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 12:56 PM

The 21-year-old son of guitarist David Gilmour who became the face of the violent band of scum students who ran riot in Westminster, is now in his second year at Cambridge University, where he is reading history at Girton College. He admitted he had no idea what the Cenotaph was !

We have one like here that studied law.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: michaelr
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 01:03 PM

Teribus - I was referring to England's feudal past, when the peasants were compelled by blunt force to give part of their meager scrapings to their overlords. This continued in different ways through the industrial revolution and into the 20th century.

You and I were lucky to have been born in what is now showing itself to have been a brief period of relative wealth for those not part of the upper class, in Western Europe and North America. After the Great Depression and World War II, economic prosperity in those countries seemed to make possible a larger middle class and a semblance of equality and social justice.

That window is closing, and it's being closed because today's ruling class has decided it's in its better interest to go back to a "feudal" model of society. You seem to be in the "I got mine" camp, and good for you - I never even had the chance to acquire property, and neither have the majority of working people, to say nothing of the rest of the world. Poverty is making a comeback, and it's by design.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 01:17 PM

I wish the parties had put student funding as higher priorities in their manifesto. As far as I can see they have no mandate for this so soon after an election. Going from 3 to 9 and substantially removing EMA is not a minor adjustment. I can understand the disolutionment of young people with the voting system.
FloraG.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: SINSULL
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 02:32 PM

I can understand young people reacting as they did. They heard that their fees were tripling - and nothing else. Here in the US, a student graduating from the least expensive schools with a BA has a debt of about $50,000 which has to be paid starting six months from graduation.
My niece with an MA and a Law Degree has a debt of $100,000+. She went to some of the best schools and had scholarships plus some parental help. A young man at my company earns less than $30,000/year and is paying over $200/mo towards his loan.
In the 70s, I completed an MA at a state school and came away debt free. In fact, I was paid an "assistantship" while I did my graduate work.
As mentioned above - this is the first generation that can not expect to do better than their parents did. A hard pill to swallow. We couldn't wait to get out of our parent's home. These young people can't afford to live anywhere else unless eight of them can find an apartment to share.
All observations. No judgments.
Although I agree that the attack on the Prince was disgraceful.
Social Security in the US would be overfinanced right now if our government hadn't found ways to dip into it. Left to collect even simple interest there would be more than enough. If and when those loans are paid back to the fund, it will survive. Again, the next generation is not going to see the same benefit.
Seniors also have to accept that the annual raises to Social Security are based on a formula. Two years of no raises and they are bitching. Read the fine print, guys. Or attack Obama's limo. Up to you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 02:35 PM

I just posted the following on the Old People thread. May as well put it here, too.


`Hate to break this to y`all, but most of the young people I`ve met are very polite. I see about as much bad manners today as I saw when I was a youngster. IMO.

As for old people, cut `em some slack. Some of us miserable old bastards will be there soon enough, and I doubt we`ll want these types of generalization said about us. IMO.`


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: theleveller
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 03:24 PM

Well done to that vast majority of students who protested peacefully. After years of apathy, the younger generation has finally become politicised, realising that their future lies in their own hands. Brilliant! I am very, very proud of you.

The right-wing scum who are trying to take control of this country have a very short sell-by date. Makes me wish I was young again. See you on the streets.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 03:52 PM

Hear, hear, theleveller.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 04:11 PM

Sounds to some here that the protesters won a victory. Check the result of the government vote !


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 04:17 PM

I hope you are 94, because it boggles the mind to imagine how you became so fookin` embittered in fewer than eight decades.


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Subject: RE: BS: Ignorant young people
From: Smokey.
Date: 11 Dec 10 - 04:32 PM

There are more students than the country can afford, and most of them are doing 'scarecrow' degrees in subjects which are of no real value to anyone. The theory is that when they have gained these qualifications, they all get well enough paid jobs to pay back the loans foisted on them in order to gain their 'education'. Most of those jobs, of course, will never exist.

Meanwhile, the level of unemployment looks much better than it really is, and the education system looks as if it's doing a far better job than it really is, at least to the wishful thinking and/or the severely gullible. It's an unsustainable situation brought about by the vote-catching short-term thinking we have been governed by for at least the last thirty years.

Most people (UK) are living far beyond their means in a constant state of debt and we have the ludicrous situation where a tramp living in a cardboard box actually has more wealth than the average household, and uses up far less resources. True, he doesn't pay any taxes, but then he isn't paying them with borrowed money that never existed either. It occurs to me that the only real wealth going into the nation's coffers is from the genuinely rich, in which case we probably shouldn't be moaning too loudly about them.

Back when we had wealth producing industry, the 'working class' actually had some clout because their contribution was vital to the big picture, making them a valuable asset. Now the majority of jobs generate nothing and merely use up resources which common sense says should be valued and preserved.

It was asked on another thread where all the wealth is going. It's going east, sure as eggs is eggs. It's not rocket science; eastern economies are growing and ours are suffering. We are living on the backs of Chinese children digging coal out of pits in worse conditions than we had in Roman times; people dying of mercury poisoning in factories we wouldn't tolerate, to make us 'energy saving' light bulbs - all to support our self-destructive illusion of wealth.


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