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Who was Paddy Doyle?

shipcmo 27 Jan 11 - 11:10 AM
Sailor Ron 27 Jan 11 - 11:26 AM
breezy 27 Jan 11 - 12:22 PM
Dead Horse 27 Jan 11 - 02:33 PM
JohnB 27 Jan 11 - 03:17 PM
curmudgeon 27 Jan 11 - 03:36 PM
The Sandman 27 Jan 11 - 05:25 PM
Dave Hanson 27 Jan 11 - 05:46 PM
Charley Noble 27 Jan 11 - 08:47 PM
The Sandman 29 Jan 11 - 12:50 PM
Greg F. 29 Jan 11 - 12:59 PM
Charley Noble 29 Jan 11 - 08:40 PM
JohnB 30 Jan 11 - 12:32 AM
MGM·Lion 30 Jan 11 - 12:44 AM
The Sandman 30 Jan 11 - 01:43 AM
GUEST,It's From Ruyard Kilpling 20 Sep 17 - 05:16 PM
EBarnacle 20 Sep 17 - 08:14 PM
Dave Hanson 21 Sep 17 - 02:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Sep 17 - 03:45 AM
Mr Red 21 Sep 17 - 05:16 AM
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Subject: Who was Paddy Doyle?
From: shipcmo
Date: 27 Jan 11 - 11:10 AM

There is an old sailing ship shanty titled "Paddy Doyle", used for "tossing the bunt", that was a common job in the older class of ships that carried single topsails, etc. The phrase goes: " we'll pay Paddy Doyle for his boots!"   According to Stan Hugill in his "Shanties from the Seven Seas"; "As to who Paddy Doyle was we have no historical evidence, but probably he was some Liverpool boarding-master from whom a clever seaman had swiped a pair of seaboots,...".   Now, I for one cannot believe a seaman of those days had that much of a conscience. Recently I have come upon an article by Fred H. Buryeson in the "Coast Seamen's Journal", June 23, 1909, where he states; "Paddy Doyle, by the way, was a Liverpool shoe-maker, known to all the "packet rats" sailing out of that port for the excellency of his sea-boots, and beloved for his readiness to trust any of the boys for the price of a pair when they were outward bound across "the big pond." Buryeson was on board the "Young America" in 1860.
From John Winrow, Assistant Curator, National Museums Liverpool: A Patrick Doyle listed in Gores Liverpool trade directory for 1841 owning a marine store close to the docks, Nelson court,'19, Queen street - stores, 12 and 14, Neptune street. It also lists a Hugh Doyle, boot & shoemaker, 79 Paradise Street, again not far from the docks.


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Subject: RE: Who was Paddy Doyle?
From: Sailor Ron
Date: 27 Jan 11 - 11:26 AM

Wonderful, but did'he' pay Paddy Doyle?


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Subject: RE: Who was Paddy Doyle?
From: breezy
Date: 27 Jan 11 - 12:22 PM

'We'll pay Paddy Doyle for his boots' implies they would have at a future date, maybe they did.
Let's believe they were honourable men, as opposed to the times we now live in where scynisisum is spelt incorrectly.


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Subject: RE: Who was Paddy Doyle?
From: Dead Horse
Date: 27 Jan 11 - 02:33 PM

It is my belief that Paddy Doyle was a boarding master or 'crimp' who would sell his own son for a shilling.
That reference made by Fred Buryeson was probably made with his tongue firmly in his cheek.
A bit like saying that Larry Marr made the best lemonade this side of Shanghai :-)


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Subject: RE: Who was Paddy Doyle?
From: JohnB
Date: 27 Jan 11 - 03:17 PM

From Songs of American Sailormen by Joanna Colcord:
"Paddy Doyle was a famous boarding-house master in Liverpool. It is told of him that he kep a cow's horn in the back yard, round which he solemnly marched "green hands", so as to be able to tell a doubting skipper that they had "been three times round the horn!"
The shanty was doubtless related in the mind of the singers to the sea-superstition that it brings bad luck to leave port with bills unpaid."
I bought the book in a recent mudcat auction and just read this yesterday.
JohnB


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Subject: RE: Who was Paddy Doyle?
From: curmudgeon
Date: 27 Jan 11 - 03:36 PM

Joanna got that one wrong most likely. It was Liverpool boarding house keeper Paddy West who had "...the table where the bullock's horn do lie."

I do find the bootmaker theory interesting, Most have believed that "paying for the boots" referred to the "advance" paid by boarding house keepers for a sailor to outfit himself, as his hard weather gear was frequently in pawn.

But the fact that a "Patrick Doyle" kept a marine store seems to beyond mere coincidence - Tom


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Subject: RE: Who was Paddy Doyle?
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jan 11 - 05:25 PM

probably an Irishman.


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Subject: RE: Who was Paddy Doyle?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 27 Jan 11 - 05:46 PM

I suggest you research Stan Hugill's book ' Sailortown ' in it is everything you could want to know about crimps and boarding masters.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: Who was Paddy Doyle?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 27 Jan 11 - 08:47 PM

Damn! My great post just went off to limbo...

JohnB-

At first I assumed you were misquoting Joanna Colcord about confusing "Paddy West" with "Paddy Doyle" but then I check page 42 of Songs of American Sailormen and, indeed, it was she who was confused.

Shipcmo-

I think you are definitely on to something with your literary reference to Paddy Doyle.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Who was Paddy Doyle?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 12:50 PM

Stan Hugill was the nautical equivalent of Bert Lloyd


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Subject: RE: Who was Paddy Doyle?
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 12:59 PM

Anybody check the 1860 Census records for Liverpool?


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Subject: RE: Who was Paddy Doyle?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Jan 11 - 08:40 PM

Greg F.-

That's a thing that one can do. I and some friends have been doing that very thing with Cicely Fox Smith and her relatives, and reviewing the passenger lists as well. More stuff is on line, although sometimes it's hard to read what's there!

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Who was Paddy Doyle?
From: JohnB
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 12:32 AM

First part of the search is free, from the 1841 census search for
Paddy Doyle
JohnB


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Subject: RE: Who was Paddy Doyle?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 12:44 AM

I should think there must have been as many Patrick Doyles, + other Irish Doyles who might ∴ be nicknamed "Paddy", as John Smiths or David Joneses in Liverpool then ~~ or at any other time, for that matter.

~M~


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Subject: RE: Who was Paddy Doyle?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Jan 11 - 01:43 AM

unlikely that he was Osama Bin Laden.


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Subject: RE: Who was Paddy Doyle?
From: GUEST,It's From Ruyard Kilpling
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 05:16 PM

In his series of books on WWI, Winston Churchill makes mention of Paddy Doyle while quoting from Kipling's "The Merchantmen."
The World Crisis, Winston Churchill, Chapter 8, "On The Oceans." Second Edition, pg 283.


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Subject: RE: Who was Paddy Doyle?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 08:14 PM

Considering that all of the other characters in the chantey are mentioned contemptuously, it would seem unlikely that he sold quality products. I suspect he was selling the equivalent of what Paddy West provided.


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Subject: RE: Who was Paddy Doyle?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 21 Sep 17 - 02:07 AM

The Sandman, Stan Hugill was an actual shantyman, so where do you get off on trying to insult his memory ?

Dave H


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Subject: RE: Who was Paddy Doyle?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Sep 17 - 03:45 AM

John Sampson said he was "a notorious boarding house master during the seventies."
He said he had the cow horn in his back yard.

Hugill said " He was probably just some Liverpool boarding house master."
He says Padyy West was a "real live personage" and tells the cow horn story about him.


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Subject: RE: Who was Paddy Doyle?
From: Mr Red
Date: 21 Sep 17 - 05:16 AM

Songs of the Sailor and Lumberman, W M Doerflinger page 10 has Paddy Doyle as a boarding house master. Page 346/7 has a long list of references to other collectors who refer to PD.

Incedently P347 has quite a piece on Paddy West. Maitland said of him "he kept an old run-down boarding house - a straw house, up on the London Road (I think)", though Doerflinger thinks he had many locations. Stan Hugill has him in Great Howard Street with a ship's wheel in the back yard to train farmers into being seamen, complete with buckets of water thrown at them by his wife.

"Find my Past" for Padraig Doyle best of luck.


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