BS: Hideous USAian immigration

Subject: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 01:11 PM

My wife's cousin was subjected to appalling personal examinations by USAian immigration officials in Atlanta recently - because she had a hip replacement which sent the scanner loopy.

We will not go anywhere near that hideous country any more. We entered Spain this morning which from plane to baggage reclaim took no more than 5 minutes with very friendly immigration officials - unlike the USAian lesbian Hitlers!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 01:16 PM

Well, Bonzo, when you have a military that is intent upon dominating and terrorizing much of the world, you have to increase your own border security!

The Nazis had this problem too...a constant concern for security. They had a lot of enemies for some reason, just like the USA does...

Israel has a lot of enemies too.

I wonder why?

I'm thinking I might visit Spain some time too. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 02:12 PM

Bonzo, I don't think I believe you.

But of course you are welcome to stay away from my hideous country all you want.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 02:53 PM

I'm afraid it's true. My neighbours, an elderly and utterly respectable couple, were treated very rudely and aggressively last year at a USA airport. When she'd had enough, she treated the Official with a stream of Broad Norfolk invective, which largely went over his head (luckily). But this caused him to summon armed Security people, who behaved as if Osama Bin Laden had finally emerged from hiding before their very eyes. They were threatened with incarceration (Guantanamo perhaps??) and the husband whispered out of the corner of his mouth that they'd better apologise or they might never be seen again. Here in the UK, we're generally very polite to travellers. My African husband was given a lovely welcome at Gatwick and he was amazed at how pleasant and friendly the Immigration people were, also the Customs, who were abjectly apologetic at having to search his baggage. I know security is terribly important, but it can be done with courtesy and gentleness.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 03:06 PM

" USAian lesbian Hitlers!"

I am with leenia....I don't think I'll miss for one minute anyone who resorts to that sort of exaggerated nonsensical rhetoric.

There is NO satisfactory answer to the security screening problems...at airports or elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 03:14 PM

Bill & Leenia, there have been MANY similar cases reported in the U.S. press of both citizens and fortign travellers - which a ten second search will confirm, before you get your knickers in a twist.

One satisfactory answer would be courtesy and competance. They don't HAVE to act like cowboy assholes to accomplish the job properly.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 03:17 PM

I was not addressing the right to complain, nor the seriousness of the issue.
I was addressing nasty, overblown language which shows far more about the complainer than the actual incident.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Maryrrf
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 03:28 PM

I've seen US customs agents, immigration personnel, and airport screeners treat people rudely (and have sometimes been on the receiving end of this, even though I'm American). I realize they have to screen people, but I do wish they'd go through some kind of training program where they learn to do so while treating people with courtesy and respect. I have a feeling that jobs like that have a tendency, unfortunately, to attract people who like to throw their weight around and behave like bullys. (It is usually best, no matter how rude they are, to remain calm and cooperate as best you can, because they unfortunately have the ability to make things difficult.) As an American I find it distressing that some visitors to our country are put through this. But please realize that there isn't much most of us Americans can do about it - they aren't elected officials, so we can't boot them out of office. Once you get past the rude customs and immigration people (and not all of them are) I think most visitors find us friendly and enjoy their vacations here.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 03:59 PM

Once you get past the rude customs and immigration people (and not all of them are) I think most visitors find us friendly and enjoy their vacations here.

I agree, we have met some lovely folks in the US, but I think the US Immigration Service stinks.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: GUEST,999
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 04:30 PM

I too have an artificial hip. I tell them that before I step thru the scanner. They then pat me down and that`s that. Of course, that`s in Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Don Firth
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 05:14 PM

Well, I can hear the person who lodged the complaint in the opening post in another hypothetical situation.

While sitting in the tail section of the plane as it is spiraling toward the ground, the front half of the plane having been blown to smithereens by a suicide bomber, the OPer cursing airport security for their lack of thoroughness.

I've flown a bit recently (round trips from Seattle to Denver and Kansas City, MO). I use a wheelchair. The main problem I have there is not with airport security, it's with the baggage handlers. They seem to resent anything that won't stack neatly, like books on a book shelf, and take their ire out by treating whatever it is roughly, and just cramming it (think "guitar case"). I've had one wheelchair's frame bent so that it wouldn't unfold properly. I lodged a complaint when the damaged wheelchair was delivered to me as I debarked from the plane, and an airline supervisor ordered a rental chair, stat (delivered immediately), for me to use while I was on my trip, and gave me a nice check, with which I was able to buy a brand new chair, better than the one they wrecked.

I also have a titanium rod and four screws in my left thigh. I explain ahead of time why their scanner will go nuts, and they cut me out of the line and scan me with a wand. They can also feel the two screw heads in my left knee. So far, they've been polite and fairly gentle whenever they wanted to check my leg (squeezing through my pant leg). Only once. The others just scanned my leg with the wand and took my word for it.

Air travel these days is a bitch. But the security folks in general are just people. Some are assholes (give some people a uniform and a badge and they go power-mad!), but I've found most of them to be generally harried, but fairly polite.

Don Firth

P. S. Some years ago, in Grand Rapids, MI, they (Arthritic Duck Airlines) wouldn't "special handle" my guitar (hand carry it on board and put it into the coat closet, like other airlines had always done), but made me buy a seat for the guitar. Child's fare. Cost me an extra thirty bucks. So I flew for a half-hour, from Grand Rapids to Chicago's O'Hare airport, with my guitar case strapped into a seat beside me. No problem from O'Hare back to Seattle-Tacoma International. Special handling as usual, no bitching or complaining.

But then, I understand that Segovia didn't trust any airline personnel to handle his guitar and insisted on buying it a seat and carrying it himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 05:16 PM

Golly, tripping Godwin's Law in the OP. This whole thread loses.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 05:58 PM

"There is NO satisfactory answer to the security screening problems...at airports or elsewhere. "

Yes there is - everybody stay at home... what a sad world that would be ....

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Slag
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 06:05 PM

LH, did you ever stop to think that perhaps it's the other way around? If the US had ever been intereseted in world domination it would have already happened. Global poilitcs is so complicated and dominated by interlocking international interests that it makes your state look farcical, because it IS farcical.

To the question at hand: The above statement, not withstanding, I will not fly again until there are big changes in the way security is conducted. My last couple of trips across the country, I drove and what a joy. I can stop whenever I want, get out and stretch my legs, view interesting features of the countryside which cannot even be guessed at from 30,000 feet, eat complete meals if I want, listen to MY music, not theirs and not have to cramp my 6'2" frame into a chair made for 5'6" people. I don't have people sitting behind me hacking and coughing with God-knows-what kind of infection and the cost in dollars is actually less than flying. And at my age I don't "hafta be on time to anything" (so far!). Best of all I don't have to be felt up as though I were a common criminal by some highschool dropout of questionable sexual intent. No thanks to air travel.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 06:12 PM

"If the US had ever been interested in world domination"...

The surviving documentation on that fact current is pretty voluminous, for they are, and have been since about 1896... but then so have a lot of other countries, GB, France, Spain, Portugal, Holland, Germany, Italy, Japan, USSR, and now India (think call answer centers and computer programmers!) and China ...

Eventually the sump plug falls out of the machine and it grinds to a halt as other power players surge past ...

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Slag
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 06:28 PM

GB has the distinction of having never thought other than that they, the aristocrats and elite, DO dominate the world and they act accordingly. This is primarily in the field of banking and finance but money is power and their is much truth behind the assumption.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 06:47 PM

Out three-legged poster's three-legged cousin-in-law? No wonder Customs was suspicious.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 06:52 PM

Bonzo, I suppose it's little consolation to you, but I doubt that your wife's cousin was scanned by immigration officials. No doubt, she was scanned by the same Transportation Safety Administration officers who scan all "USAians" boarding aircraft. I witnessed the same clumsy search when I brought my daughter home from the hospital on a plane, her body full of hardware. Americans and foreigners generally get more-or-less similar treatment from the TSA.

I used to investigate airport immigration officials. Most of the time, the immigration inspectors did their job fairly well; but there were always a few incidents that gave the inspectors a bad reputation. In addition, there were certain work locations where the overall attitude of immigration officials was sour, and unpleasant incidents were far more common at those locations.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 06:55 PM

I have never had any problems going in or out of the USA all that is required is to be prepared for it, answer whatever questions they ask and exercise a bit of patience.

Had a bit of fun in Halifax though last time I was over, by Christ were the Immigration staff there officious. We'd flown in from Iceland and were joining a ship and in the stop-over in Iceland had got talking to another bunch of guys who had to clear Immigration in Halifax then catch an onward flight to Toronto.

We all lined up waiting to be processed when the few people in front of us were cleared, we as a group, waved the other lads forward to be cleared first so that they could catch their flight. This "out of the box" thinking did not go down well with the Immigration Staff who ordered them back and started dealing with our far larger group. The onward flight closed and this other group were basically screwed until next morning. Our answer to that was to be as slow as we possibly could be with doing anything or answering anything, we kept them there for hours. Their only sanction - to send us back out on the next plane they told us, to which we said, "No problem, we get paid the same no matter".

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 07:18 PM

A US military person once pulled a gun on me when I ducked under some tape to avoid zig-zagging around. That was in London. Since I was to be an invited speaker at an International Bar Association conference in UCLA I was less than favourably impressed.

Then there was the immigration official who threatened to exclude me from the USA - I was on my way to meetings with Paramount - when he said "Well Richard..." and I said "That's Mr Bridge to you...".

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Slag
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 07:25 PM

Good for you, Mr. Bridge! There is far too much unwarranted and univited familiarity.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 09:46 PM

I've run into both types traveling around the US and elsewhere. Adolph Hitler, Jr. made me go through a pat down in Newark because I didn't respond quickly enough to what he said (I didn't hear him). The last time I flew (BWI to SLC) I went through the scanner at BWI and, because I told them I had a problem raising my left arm, they felt up my arm after I left the scanner: if they want to get my armpit sweat on their hands I don't care.

The one security check I really enjoyed was some years ago when we were flying Edinburgh to Dublin, back before the 9/11 "security improvements" went into effect. My wife had a small-bladed (1.5" blade) lock back knife we used for cutting twine, cheese, and such things in her purse. The Scottish security officer found it, of course, and was puzzling over it. It was well under legal blade length, but "lock back knives are illegal in the UK." Finally, after much soul-searching, he gave it back to her with the statement "Ah, hell, you're goin' ta Dublin. Let the Irish figure it out."

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Feb 11 - 10:44 PM

Sometimes THEY are not sure what to ban... I was actually standing at an airline counter once when someone walked down the line of clerks, handing out a memo saying they did NOT have to ban those folding nail clipper gadgets. **whew**

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Feb 11 - 12:23 AM

The Qld police are getting very arrogant with their sidearms, hand hovering over it, and fingers twitching on the catch. Remember that about 20% are forbidden from carrying, cause they have AVOs ...

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: LadyJean
Date: 12 Feb 11 - 12:33 AM

I remember coming to England with my mother, who told the customs inspector we were related.

"Oh yes, Sisters." She said, with what I quickly discovered was typical British courtesy.

I've got nine screws in my left arm. I've had trouble, off and on with various security personnel since the Oklahoma city bombing 16 years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Feb 11 - 08:47 AM

"There is NO satisfactory answer to the security screening problems...at airports or elsewhere. "

Of course there is. Pay fair wages so that people want the job, and monitor that they do it properly, with a proper disciplinary procedure, so that discourteous or incompetent staff (and supervisors) are kept in line, and if need be, replaced.

It's an important job and needs to be done properly.

Anyone incompetent and lazy enough to be discourteous can't be relied on to be vigilant.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 12 Feb 11 - 12:56 PM

I've been on many, many flights, sometimes carrying suspicious, tubular, lead items (cut-glass vases for my collection) and have never been treated rudely. I been scanned, wanded, and tested for explosives, and I've never been treated rudely.

There may be a small percentage of TSA employees who are rude, but I believe most of this complaining comes from people with a chip on their shoulder who enjoy defying authority.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Feb 11 - 01:55 PM

A friend of mine says that last week at one stop there was a contract crew trained by TSA itself - and they were all very pleasant.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: DougR
Date: 12 Feb 11 - 03:58 PM

I've traveled a great deal and have no complaints with TSA. And McGrath, they are NOT under paid.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Brian May
Date: 12 Feb 11 - 05:11 PM

As a commercial aviator for many years and flying into Florida particularly for a holiday company, I would observe that compared with the rest of the world, the US Immigration and Customs (but particularly Immigration) are some of the rudest and unreasonable I have ever met. Neither do they seem to have any kind of sense of humour or appreciate that the UK had been (not sure it's so anymore) one of its staunchest allies.

Once, when on holiday with my wife, arriving at Sandford, I was grilled for about 10 minutes as to why I had a Crew Visa, but was not in uniform. I tried explaining very gently that I was on holiday - to which the response was 'Why have you got a Crew Visa?', this cycle was repeated about 5 times.

Eventually, they called a supervisor who 'let it go this time'. I also had pointed out a Visitor's Visa on the next page. Pray tell me, what was I supposed to do with my Crew Visa? Tear the bloody page out???

I know the Americans here get a bit sensitive over how the rest of the world view them, but the above is unequivocally true, it happened to me and, as Wink Martindale would say 'I was that pack of playing cards'.

By the way, Manchester security are not much better. Did the OP exaggerate? Possibly, but I don't know as I wasn't there.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Feb 11 - 06:21 PM

As usual, Deluisional Douggie is completely out of touch with reality.
He wouldn't complain if they did a search of all his cavities with no probable cause whatsoever.

And according to Douggie, anyone making more than minimum wage is overpaid.

Except for himself, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Skivee
Date: 12 Feb 11 - 11:18 PM

LH-The rudest A-hole self-important jerk I ever met working a border was a guy on the Canadian side of the Niagara crossing. The reverse is also true.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Feb 11 - 11:41 PM

I believe the inspectors we encounter in U.S. airports are called "Transportation Security Officers." They are paid in pay bands D and E, $25,500 to $44,000 a year (and it's probably 20 years to the top of Band E). I suppose that sounds like a lot of money, but it's tough to support a family on that. Oh, yes, and they get the same "Cadillac health insurance" that members of congress get, and have to pay the same $500 a month that Congress members pay.

TSA Pay Scales.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 12:02 AM

Skivee, I have no argument with that. Yes, some Canadian Customs people are, as the British would say, "right bastards"! ;-) In any case, the only sensible way to deal with them is cooperate, answer all their questions calmly, and do absolutely nothing to annoy them...same as with the American customs agents.

I had trouble with one group of customs officials once when crossing into the USA at Detroit. Luck of the draw, I guess...

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 05:55 AM

Little Hawk, I would hazard a guess that nearly all Brits abroad at Immigration Points are polite, calm and co-operative to a fault. As a nation we are generally courteous and deferential to authority. So it is doubly upsetting to be treated nonetheless with aggressive and rude behaviour. We have always thought of Americans (and Canadians) as tremendously cheerful, relaxed and kindly, so it's an unpleasant surprise to find that, at airports, they are NOT! I can however empathise, as after the dreadful and tragic events of September 11, it's no wonder they're suspicious and wary.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Stu
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 09:25 AM

There's no doubt that US officials are intimidating, and at JFK (a few days before 9/11) they were positively rude, but I was warned by my wife not to react with my usual attitude when confronted by jumped-up uniformed pricks of any sort.

On our way back from the US last year we had our bags emptied and checked on each flight we took, including our hand luggage. I was carrying fossils but no-one was the slightest bit interested in the paperwork I had carefully obtained to ensure no problems. When we finally got back to Heathrow the jumped-up, officious uniformed little prick there proceeded to quiz my wife for ages on the purchasing location of the bottle of Knob Creek which was in one of those sealed dayglo bags they hand out at O'Hare.

Where ever you go in the world, put a chump in a uniform and give him a bit of power and they are still chumps. Just resist the urge to tell them to eff off, get through it and go and see the real folk.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 11:06 AM

Not saying I approve of TSA tactics or lack of courtesy, but I had a horrendous treatment from UKians at Heatherow when my daughter passed away. No sympathy no help. I had to wait in queue to check in, to go through security while weeping inconsolably. The concourse full of laughing young women embarking on May Day holiday was too much and if not for the extra staff on duty to deal with the overload of travellers, I would have been left standing their sobbing for several hours. Even Continental - Virgin would not let me into lounge unless I paid £50.

When my English husband and I arrived on American soil Dulles near Washington DC, immigration officer immediately took my husband out of foreign travellers queue and they checked him through quickly and provided escort to get us quickly through baggage collection and customs.

Courtesy is a variable by individual and situation. Though I found most of the people at Heatherow on that horrible day unhelpful, I do not think them monsters. They just did not know what to do with or for me.

I blame the systems and lack of training... not the people.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 11:33 AM

I should mention that on the street, in the shops and on the buses, I have found people in some parts of England go out of their way to be discourteous. Knock you out of their way, shout at you if you get in their way, refuse to relinquish seat on bus to an elderly person, run their damn push chairs (strollers) or shopping trolleys into the back of your legs repeatedly. But perhaps they should be forgiven, because they are either young or from Essex or worse BOTH!.

Never had problem with strangers invading my personal space when in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 12:03 PM

Never had any problems in Argentina, Spain, Ecuador, and Peru - speaks volumes for nice Latin folks I think!!

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Penny S.
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 12:50 PM

Last year I fell and hurt my knee in Gloucestershire. I walked about in cirencester with a stick, and made two interesting discoveries. 1. Older people with sticks greeted me as one of themselves. 2. Young women with the 4X4 equivalent pushchairs expected me to get out of their way, with impatience. Including when approaching from behind me.
So I know what VTam is on about. And isn't she in Essex?

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: SINSULL
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 01:08 PM

The worst security people (most rude, mean) were in China. Officious little nobodies given a bit of power and incredibly rude. Fortunately, I had marked every receipt with what I had purchased and where. Fellow travellers who hadn't lost all of their perfectly legal souvenirs.
The most friendly while being thorough security people were the Australians who opened every bag and everything in each bag all the while apologizing that I fit the profile for a drug smuggler. They even took apart a container of wet towels.
I did have a US official at the Canadian border give me a hard time. I was travelling to Canada on business pretty regularly and he decided I was up to something. After questioning me thoroughly he asked if I had purchsed anything in Canada. Thinking he meant to take back over the border, I said no. As he went through my suitcase he found a small bag with the name of a Canadian company on it. He loudly exclaimed "I thought you didn't buy anything!" Before I could explain he opened the bag and out came my dirty undies. I had bought a greeting card and mailed it in Canada and used the bag for my undies. He was very annoyed - his own fault for being a prick.
Given the prevalence of suicide bombers and the disaster in Russia just this month, I expect security people to be careful. When they are rude, I certainly don't assume that the entire country is rude.
Our "hideous" country will muddle through without you, Bonzo. Your remark was as uncalled for as the rude treatment you received at the hands of that security agent.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: SINSULL
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 01:09 PM

You do know that Mudcat is a production from that same hideous country, don't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 01:10 PM

Live in Essex... Hate going into shops, high street, and taking bus.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 01:17 PM

I am truly sorry, VirginiaTam both for your loss and for the unpardonable treatment your suffered here at such a harrowing time. I suppose I'm forming my opinion of the UK from the region where I live, which is very rural. Old-fashioned manners still pertain here in the countryside. And perhaps it is true that some individuals given a uniform and some authority will behave like little Hitlers. I think travelling is very stressful, with cancellations, delays and jetlag etc. Tempers get frayed and patience is thin. The officials are tired, bored or stressed. These are not ideal conditions for polite and friendly relations. Sugarfoot Jack is right, get through, get out and enjoy the 'Real People'.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Stu
Date: 14 Feb 11 - 03:49 AM

"I have found people in some parts of England go out of their way to be discourteous."

VT, it's become the norm in the UK. The lack of manners in the street and on the road is quite depressing really. My wife was rounded a corner the other day and nearly bumped into a chap coming the other way - they were both unsighted - and instead of saying sorry he proceeded to tell her to "Fuck off!" very loudly. Open doors for people - no thanks, let people out in the car - no thanks etc etc.

However, the USians in the Dakotas, Montana and Wyoming were very polite indeed, to the point it took a bit of getting used to. Everyone was very polite in an old-fashioned way, all smiles and thank-you's and you're welcome. I brought a piece of that attitude back for myself.

Crossing the road in Rapid City, we were waiting mid-block to get across the three-lanes to the boozer (Fire House - highly recommended). The traffic was flowing and as we waited a huge SUV stopped just in front of us in the nearside lane. He waited a few seconds, then waved us across the road, checking for not traffic. We waved a thanks and he went on his way. So to reiterate: a man stopped his car (I can't recall anyone being behind him) in the middle of the road, checked the traffic and let us cross, all out of politeness.

That would never happen in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Will Fly
Date: 14 Feb 11 - 04:54 AM

That would never happen in the UK.

Oh yes it would - I've done it myself.

Mass generalisations about a people, a nation or a whole area are dubious, in my view. Everybody's different and, as this thread demonstrates, it takes all sorts to make a world. Every horror story can be contradicted by a positive story.

There's a moral here: when you're upset by the treatment you receive from somebody, take a few seconds - just a few - to examine what your expectations are or were. And then a few more to let it pass. I don't expect warm smiles from airport staff - and I'm always pleasantly surprised when I get them.

Here's a story of people power for you: Many years ago, I was travelling back from a weekend jazz festival in Middelburg (Holland) and a coachload of tired and slightly inebriated musicians arrived at the Sheerness ferry terminal around 10pm a few days before Christmas. Many had bought presents for their families. The Customs officials were obviously bored and on the lookout for some action and proceeded to check everyone, person by person, as slowly as possible.

The queuing pattern was laid out with steel rails - a bit like a continuous sheep pen. Some wag at the back starting baa-ing like a sheep. Eventually, the whole queue took it up and the baa-ing noise was tremendous. Red-faced, the Customs guys waved us all through.

The power of sheep-like musicians!

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Feb 11 - 08:10 AM

Take a look at the thread title again - Hideous USAian immigration, no mention of the wonderful people we have met on our travels there.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Stu
Date: 14 Feb 11 - 08:54 AM

Well Will, good to hear there's still a knight of the road out there somwhere. I wasn't talking about every man, woman and child, but I'll eat my hat if anyone stops on a three-lane road to wave me across when they're the only car going that way. My hunch is they will simply drive past . . . but hey, here's hoping I'm proved wrong.

Still, we're a bunch of miserable sods compared to the Americans, who treat their customers as if they're actually worth something and make strangers very welcome. You can tell we're becoming more mean and nasty - the Tories are in again. Nasty nasty nasty.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: SINSULL
Date: 14 Feb 11 - 12:04 PM

We will not go anywhere near that hideous country any more.

I was responding to that.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 11 - 01:08 PM

We had a rather strange experience years ago when returning to the UK from Morocco around the time the Americans bombed Libya; we were aware something serious had happened as the only newspapers on sale were in Arabic, all carrying photographs of the bombing.
Agidir Airport was on full alert and trestle tables had been set up where every item of baggage was being searched.
The long queue of passengers snaking across the building waited fairly patiently, with the exception of a somewhat toffee-nosed Brit in front of us who whinged incessantly about inefficient A-rabs (until he was shamed into silence by other passengers).
When he reached the table the official, obviously as pissed off with the delay as everybody else, began to search the whinger's luggage and took out what looked like an electric razor case and tried to open it. When he couldn't, he gestured the Brit, obviously enquiring what it was. Your man, apparently deliberately, pretended not to understand, turning around and smirking at the rest of the queue.
The offcial shrugged, put the razor case up to his ear and shook it violently - if it had been a bomb it would have decimated the airport.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: MartinRyan
Date: 14 Feb 11 - 01:17 PM

Many years ago, in the early years of the (last? ;>)) IRA bombing campaign, I set out to travel to Holland by boat and train from Ireland. At that stage, the ferry from Dun Laoghaire still had a First and Second Class. Shortly after I boarded, there was a "bomb scare", caused , IIRC, by a phone call. They evacuated the second class section onto the pier - but didn't disturb the First Class!

Didn't know whether to laugh or cry!

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Feb 11 - 02:35 PM

"...when you have a military that is intent upon dominating and terrorizing much of the world, you have to increase your own border security!" LH

Little Hawk, that is hyperbole of a bad sort. You might want to stop and think of the borders of many, many nations that do NOT patrol them because the United States has made itself responsible for them
You might even have a look at Canada.

Smarminess to a fault.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Van
Date: 14 Feb 11 - 05:48 PM

It happens everywhere. On a flight from Heathrow to Edinburgh the beeper went off and I said that it would be my house keys and went to get them out. This wasn't good enough so I got the full shake down.(Too much interest in the tender parts). But house keys it was. The world is full of these people.
Fortunately it is also full of their opposites. A while ago I was trying to find my way round a strange town and stopped to work out where I was and how to get to where I was going. I was near the edge of the pavement and a car stopped and waved me across. Being British I crossed the road but was still lost.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Feb 11 - 06:13 PM

As a temporary relief from the sturm und drang in this thread, two anecdotes from The Adventures of a Customs Agent:

#1.   The scene, Blaine, Washington, on the border between Canada and the United States;   time, a few decades ago.

A young man comes pedaling south out of British Columbia to the U. S. border station on a bicycle. Over the handle bars of the bicycle is draped a gunny sack, which forces him to watch his balance and steer very carefully. He stops and the border guards ask him the usual questions ("Where were you born, what is the purpose of your trip" etc.) Then, "What's in the gunny sack?"

"Wet sand," responds the young man.

Yeah, sure! think the customs agents. They take the sack into the station and pull out one of the tools they are sometimes called upon to use. A box with a screen over the top. They open the bag and screen the sand. The young man stands there patiently watching, seemingly bemused. And lo! that's it! Nothing but wet sand! So they pack the sand back into the gunny sack, sew it up again for him, then help him drape it back over the handlebars of his bicycle, and bidding them good day, he rides off to the south, carefully balancing the weight of the gunny sack full of sand.

A few weeks later, he appears again. Same gunny sack full of sand draped over his handle bars. The customs agents have a hasty conference. "Dollars to donuts," they agree, "he's going to keep coming over the border with that bag of sand, with the assumption that we'll simply get tired of screening it, and once we stop, he'll start smuggling whatever it is he intends to smuggle. So—we screen the sand every blinkin' time he comes across the border!"

And so it goes. Every few weeks for about a year and a half, the young man crosses the border, and every time, they go through the routine of screening the sand and repacking it for him while he waits with a bemused smile. Then—he comes no more.

A couple of years later, one of the customs agents, now retired, is walking on the streets of Bellingham, Washington, south of Blaine, when he sees the young man. He walks up to him and introduces himself. "Remember me? I'm one of the customs agents that checked you through the border. You, know, with the bag of sand?'

The young man smilingly acknowledges remembering him.

"Now, tell me," says the customs agent. "That bag of sand. You were smuggling something, weren't you? Now I'm retired, and I promise I won't tell anyone. But it's driving me nuts! I've got to know!"

The young man smiled bashfully and said, "Well, yes. I was."

"Okay," said the customs agent. "What in blazes were you smuggling?"

"Ten-speed bicycles," says the young man.

####

#2. American coming back from Canada stops at the border crossing, and the American customs agent asks him the usual questions, including, "Did you buy anything in Canada?"

No, says the guy.

Oftentimes, they would take someone's word for it and just wave them through. But now and then, they would spot-check. The customs agent asked him to open his luggage. And there in one of his suitcases was a half-empty bottle of McNaughtons.

"I'm sorry," says the customs agent, "but I'm afraid you can't take an open bottle of whiskey across the border!"

"The hell I can't!" says the guy. He snatches it out of the customs agent's hand, pops the cork, tilts her up, and guzzles her down, emptying the bottle in one long pull!

Well, there was nothing much the customs agent could to at that point, so he had to let him through. But—there is usually a Washington State Patrol cruiser or two parked near the border station just in case someone tries to make a run for it, so the customs agent alerted a couple of state patrolmen to follow him. They couldn't arrest him for anything at that point, but if he started showing the effects of the substantial wallop of booze he had just consumed, they could pull him over and arrest him for Driving While Intoxicated.

The State Patrol car followed him into Bellingham. The guy may have been hanging on with teeth and toenails, but he drove like a perfect law-abiding citizen. There in Bellingham, he pulled into a driveway, locked the car, and went into the house. A check of the car's license number established that he had simply driven to his home.

No joy! Had to put the ticket book away.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 12:33 AM

Ah, Don, but here in the UK it is illegal to drive, however safely or conformingly, with more than a stated blood-alcohol content, which your motorist would clearly have exceed by gulping down a ½-bott of spirits. So they'd have breathalysed him & got him here, no prob.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 01:07 AM

Right, M. I don't totally understand why the State Patrol couldn't have pulled him over, breathalyzed him, and charged him. After all, in traffic court, I presume they would have had the testimony of the customs agent.

But due to one of the stipulations of the Bill of Rights having to do with "unlawful search and seizure," it may be that he would have had to commit a traffic infraction before they could pull him over without getting a warrent first. They would have to actually see him do something illegal to be able to establish "probable cause" for stopping him.

I know that, even if the police feel sure that someone is transporting drugs, the police can't simply pull a car over on the basis of their "suspicions." There has to be some sort of traffic related infraction before they can stop the car and search it.

One other possibility. The distance from Blaine to Bellingham is a mere twenty miles (32 kilometers). I don't know how long all that booze would take to get into the guy's blood stream and show on the breathalyzer, so they may have had to give him a bit of time to make sure they could get a positive reading.

I'm not too certain of all the "ins and outs" of this. Messy!

Maybe one of our "legal eagles" can sort it out for us.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Silas
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 04:08 AM

I can't for thelife of me understand just why anyone would want to visit the USA anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 04:58 AM

Silas: I gather you have never been. It is a most delightful country, full of the most friendly and interesting people, with the most wonderfully varied terrain and some of the world's greatest cities ~~ don't die without seeing New York, Chicago, SF, the Grand Canyon, the Bryant Park Hotel, Bryce Canyon Utah, the Chrysler Building, the Cloisters Museum, the Frick Collection (cont p 94)...

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Silas
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 05:04 AM

Hi Micheal

was that a bit tongue in cheek?

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 05:34 AM

No, Silas. Whatever makes you think so? I have always been made to feel most happy and at home in my several visits to USA over past 40 years.

BTW please note correct spelling of

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 05:36 AM

Or are you a Yooser & it was you being tongue-in-cheek, maybe?

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Silas
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 05:50 AM

OOPs, sorry about mis-spelling your name.
No, it is a place that I have absoloutly no desire to go, and it appears that they don't welcome tourists anyway, so no great loss either way. To be fair, I feel much the same about China, Japan, Malaysia etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 06:02 AM

I have been to China as my first wife was a university lecturer there for a while [got caught up in Tienenman, which happened just after I came home]. Intersting but not excessively so. Have no desire, like you, to visit other places you mention ~~ which just as well, as haven't energy for much travel these days [80 next year!]: haven't even gone to USA where my wife is right now on a course at NY Film Academy.

Still have most happy memories of the place, tho. & you are just not right about their not welcoming tourists.

Where do you like then, Silas?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Will Fly
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 06:04 AM

it appears that they don't welcome tourists anyway

I've never been to the US - though I have a sister in Tucson and a niece in Portland, Oregon - but I can assure you that my wife and her friends, who have been there on several occasions (Maine, New England, Massachusets, Appalachians, Arizon, California, etc., etc.) were always made to feel thoroughly welcome and met a whole host of lovely, warm, friendly people.

I correspond with many American people - not just here on Mudcat - and have found them to be kind, considerate, decent people. Not much different from us over here in the UK, to be honest. My own loyalties, as far as tourism/holidays is concerned, lie in Europe rather than elsewhere, so I haven't visisted the US yet. I may well do so in the next year or two - and I'll look forward to it immensely.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Silas
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 09:44 AM

Hi M

Well, it's quite possible that on an individual basis, the average American citizen would welcome a british tourist, the media would certanly have us believe that the US as a country does not.

Like Will, I enjoy europe. I love northern France, Belgium, Ireland, Italy and even parts of Spain as well as the dear old UK of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 10:40 AM

"I've never been to the US "
I've never visited the US either and considering the number of guns per head of population, I doubt if I will ever find the enthusiasm to do so - "you'll have to thrust a plane ticket into my cold, dead hands", to misquote a famous actor.
This said, I think it unfair to compare the behaviour of the natives of anywhere with that of the beaurocrats you might encounter.
I found the people we met in Turkey among the most charming and friendly of anywhere we visited, yet we were horrified to witness the local police in the resort we were staying sweep through the town regularly, violently clearing out local youngsters who appeared to be doing no harm. - Shall thing twice before we go back, or things have radically altered politics-wise.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Feb 11 - 10:05 PM

You mean you actually believe what you read and hear in the media, Silas?

Incredible!

The U. S. is a very large country. LOTS of variety, in people, scenery, attitudes.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: LadyJean
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 12:12 AM

I don't know if they still do this at the Trout in Oxford, but when I was there, they had a cute trick of taking reservations from American tourists, then "losing" them, after the unhappy tourists had sprung for a cab to the charming country pub, that is some distance from the town.

Then there was the lady at Christchurch Cathedral who complained that there were Americans coming to her church.

I live in a city of Anglophobes. But I've never heard of British visitors being treated with anything but courtesy.

I wouldn't own a gun on a bet. I live in the city, and I have no interest in demoting a purse snatcher to an armed robber. My sister lives on a farm that is close to nothing, including a paved road. She owns a shotgun. I don't blame her.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 12:22 AM

"They would have to actually see him do something illegal to be able to establish "probable cause" for stopping him."

Queensland cops are cleverer than that - they just pull you over, say "your right taillight appears not to be working correctly sir", you say, "What?" they say,"have you been drinking sir?" ... and so it goes....

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Stu
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 04:07 AM

"I've never visited the US either and considering the number of guns per head of population, I doubt if I will ever find the enthusiasm to do"

Well, that's giving in to the same media bullshit that those poor frightened souls who feel the need to carry handguns have given into; cowed into fear by a sensationalist press and governments who seek to control through fear.

Ignore all that and get out to the states Jim. It's a most wonderful country with fascinating people and the further from the big centres of population you go the better. The Dakotas and Wyoming were another country to Chicago and New York, both of which are equally wonderful anyway. Wonderful country with wonderful people. I can't wait to get back.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 04:25 AM

"Ignore all that and get out to the states Jim."
Will probably go one day - but not to Columbine High or...or...or...
And certainly not to Alaska!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Stu
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 04:46 AM

. . . and they do beer so well now, you'll never want for a decent pint. Oh, and the music, the food, hats, Cheetos, sky etc etc babble gush rhubarb etc

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Silas
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 05:42 AM

Hi Don

I don't believe ALL I read in the papers, however, there is certainly an impression over here that your immigration and custome clearance are paranoid. I can drive to mainland Europe and back, visit France, belgim holland and only have to show my passport once going out and once coming back.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 07:10 AM

Silas

That why it's called "The European Union" ...

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Silas
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 07:46 AM

Yes, still different countries though.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 08:25 AM

I have never had any problems with US passport, airline security, or customs. On my first visit via Boston, I was asked if I was bringing any food into the country - I showed them a packet of digestives, and they waved me through.

On the way home, the flight security asked me what the musical instrument I was carrying was - I told them it was a mandolin, then I was asked if they could look at it, and after I took it out of the case, if they could listen to it!!!

My second, and last time i US was when I was in transit on the way to Brazil. My connecting flight was cancelled and I had to stay in New York for 24 hours. I found passport control was helpful, and as I was asked to 'have a nice stay' I mentioned that I would be going in 24 hours, to which he replied - stay as long as you want! (Assuming up to 3 months!!!)

My only experience of rudeness from officials was when I asked directions from a policeman to which I got a curt and sarcastic answer.

An amusing incident was when I was returning from Vlissengen with the Shanty Crew, when we had to go through customs before getting on the ferry to go home. The official looked down the end of my tin whistle.   Fortunately he didn't look inside a case we were carrying which contained two grass skirts - costumes for crossing the line ceremony - that would have took some explaining!

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 09:56 AM

" I can drive to mainland Europe and back, visit France, belgim holland and only have to show my passport once going out and once coming back" Silas

Separate countries they may be but keep in mind that in all those roamings you still have covered less ground than you wuold cover in the USA in one trip across- and not once would you have to show papers.

This country, as has been well noted above, is varied geographically, culturally, and linguistically: the man in New York and the man in deepest Alabama may be barely able to understand each other; the man in the mountains of Colorado and the man in Kansas may feel they have nothing in common with the man in Manhattan or the man on the shores of the Pacific. They could easily have been citizens of different countries.

But they all love music.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 10:34 AM

When I put my accordion on an airport scanner in Glasgow the guys said they knew what it was and , with a big grin, said that no, they weren't going to ask me to play it.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 10:36 AM

"the man in New York and the man in deepest Alabama may be barely able to understand each other"

In England there are places like that barely 30 miles apart!

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 10:56 AM

"In England there are places like that barely 30 miles apart!"

That's because in a country the size of England everything is compressed. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 11:04 AM

From Ask.com:

What is Length of England north to south?
England is about 300 miles long. The longest car journey, from just north of Berwick on Tweed the NE border with Scotland down to Land's End in South-West Cornwall is 550 miles.

From Manhattan to Birmingham, Alabama is close to 900 miles- and you're still in the eastern sector!

Jim Carroll, what's wrong with Alaska? If you are referring to Sarah Palin- she wasn't born here, you know. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 11:17 AM

"she wasn't born here, you know"
Isn't that where she's infesting at the present time - apologise if I'm wrong
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Maryrrf
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 11:53 AM

I haven't been there, but if I had the opportunity I would visit Alaska in a heartbeat, regardless of whether or not Sarah Palin lives there or not (just for the record, I absolutely loathe her and everything she stands for). Some of the most beautiful scenery in the world is to be found in Alaska and I'd love to experience it (although not in the winter). I see no reason why despising Sarah Palin should make me despise the entire state of Alaska!

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 01:25 PM

Alaska is the most beautiful place in the world - or at least the parts of the world I have visited. Breathtakingly beautiful. And the people are friendly and at least some of the ones I met more than a bit quirky. When I moved to Maine I was debating between Maine and Alaska. Ketchikan, where I spent 24 hours in heaven. I may yet move there.
I am amazed at the dislike so many UKers seem to have for the US. Whenever any of them visit Maine, we thoroughly enjoy each other. Good people are good people wherever you live.
I have travelled a lot - China, Tibet, Australia, Japan, Russia, Greece, Egypt, most of the States, Canada, Mexico, numerous islands. The only place I ran into trouble was Egypt where western dress attracted a lot of unwanted attention and outright groping.Common sense and respect for the local culture helps bring out the best.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 02:18 PM

I think all people at some time bring their own problems to the table. I am sure when it comes to one to one interaction inside and outside of bureaucratic situations each of us can make it better or worse by how we approach it.

I try to put myself in the other fellows shoes most of the time, which generally makes for easier experience.

Commiseration and empathy goes a long way.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 02:31 PM

"What is Length of England north to south?
England is about 300 miles long. The longest car journey, from just north of Berwick on Tweed the NE border with Scotland down to Land's End in South-West Cornwall is 550 miles.

From Manhattan to Birmingham, Alabama is close to 900 miles- and you're still in the eastern sector!"

Silly Tiny Countries! Now take Queensland, no please do!

Sorry, you can put both of those down in Qld and lose them (if they don't drown in the floods) ..... :-P

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 02:32 PM

Quite right, Virginia, I totally agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 04:42 PM

". . . there is certainly an impression over here that your immigration and customs clearance are paranoid."

Well, yeah, Silas, there may be a fairly good reason for that. You may recall that a little over nine and a half years ago, four airliners were hijacked, two of which were flown into the Twin Towers in New York City, one crashed into the Pentagon, and the fourth, intended (it is believed) for the White House, crashed in a field in Pennsylvania when a group of gutsy passengers attempted to take control back from the hijackers. More than 3,000 people were killed violently in that little caper.

Prior to that, customs agents at the Canadian border caught a fellow coming across the border with a trunk-load of explosives in his car. He was heading for the Los Angeles International Airport with the intention of using it somehow down there. Add to that, more recently, the suicide bomber who attempted to board a passenger airliner wearing a pair of explosive shoes, with the intention of lighting his shoe laces (fuses) and resting his feet against an outside bulkhead of the plane once they had reached about 35,000 feet. And even more recently, the so-called "underwear bomber" (I'm not sure how that was supposed to work:   how do you hid bomb in your Jockey shorts?).

And there have been a fair number of such catches, with no successful incidents—so far. So—the immigration and customs agents seem to be doing a pretty good job.

After all, considering the willingness of fanatics such as those in Al Qaeda to kill masses of people, and don't mind dying in the process themselves (instantaneous access to Paradise, along with 72 virgins and all that), it's easy to feel like you're under siege.

And much of the responsibility for protecting the citizenry from this falls to the customs and immigration agents on "the front line." One goof and thousands of people could die violently.

Helluva world, ain't it!??

Don Firth

P. S. Beautiful places in this country, with an immense amount of variety. For example, where I live, one can go boating on Puget Sound, fishing for sport, watching pods of Orca, or just enjoying being on the water. Then, you can hop into a car, drive for just a little more than an hour, and be at Snoqualmie Pass, Stevens Pass, or Crystal Mountain and go skiing. Lakes and forests everywhere. Along with this, Seattle has a world-class symphony orchestra, opera company, ballet company, and dozens of theaters, both professional and amateur.

Not to mention plenty of folk music activity, with folk singers coming out of the woodwork. . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Feb 11 - 11:22 PM

I used to think that Oregon was scenic- but I discovered when I moved to Southeast Alaska that one main difference is that in Alaska practically every direction you lookis a photo opp. I like Oregon and its scenery but it has never blown me away as it does regularly up here.

When I was the on-site caretaker of a house museum, every year I would get a volunteer or two from 'down south'. One year it was a husband and wife duo fom New Mexico, recently moved there from Ohio.

When they drove through Banff and Jasper in Alberta, Canada, they were so thrilled by the scenery they told each other that at the end of the summer they would return that way in order to see it again.

After a few weeks here they decided they would go home a different way after all. Southeastern Alaska, they said, was on par with Banff and Jasper and all those other gorgeous places.

I've lived here almost 23 years and my heart will still wrench when I look around.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 04:17 AM

Weren't those hijacked planes internal flights? Customs and immigration checks didn't come into it then. It's the people getting ONTO the planes you need to be thorough with not those that have just got off!

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Feb 11 - 03:44 PM

Yes, Manitas, but for the question at hand, that's irrelevant. It was the 9/11 attacks that woke people up to the danger. Since then, even domestio flights require that people go though a fairly rigid security check. Not unlike on international flights,

I believe that both the "shoe bomber" and the "underwear bomber" were caught on their way to boarding domestic flights.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 07:12 AM

I wonder how many innocent German women and children were killed by USAian 1000 bomber raids in WW2?

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 07:27 AM

Quite a few and not just Germans either.

But I have my doubts about the relevance of that to this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 06:31 PM

Hey, Bonzo, I think there were a few Lancasters in among the B-17s, and I don't think they were just dropping party favors.

I believe all this happened at a time when the Luftwaffe was dumping a few unpleasant packages on London (CLICKY #1) and (CLICKY #2), and other parts of the British Isles. Lot's of folks in shelters and all.

You have heard of that, right? The Holocaust, Dunkirk, the Blitz, nightly air raids, sheltering in the underground, Vera Lynn singing "When the Lights Go On Again All Over the World," and all that?

Somebody had to stop it, and you blokes weren't having all that much luck. You could have ended up speaking German.

Don't mention it! Glad to help. After all, what are neighbors for?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 08:06 PM

"Somebody had to stop it, and you blokes weren't having all that much luck. You could have ended up speaking German."

The US was of course, as usual fighting its future potential battles on the soil of others ...

Wunderwaffe

*Focke-Wulf Ta 400 - a planned Amerika Bomber candidate with six radial engines and two jet engines with a range of 13,000 km in bomber configuration
# Heinkel He 277 - a planned, advanced long range bomber design, evolved to be an Amerika Bomber candidate, to be powered with four BMW 801 radial engines
# Junkers Ju 390 - an Amerika Bomber candidate with six radial engines with a range of 9,700 km
# Messerschmitt Me 264 - an Amerika Bomber candidate with four radial engines and a range of 15,000 km
# Arado E.555 - a planned jet-powered Amerika bomber

#German nuclear energy project

*A9 Amerikarakete - a planned intermediate-range ballistic missile to be used to strike the eastern United States
# A10 - a planned lower stage for the A9 to upgrade it to an intercontinental ballistic missile
# A11 - a planned satellite launcher
# A12 - a planned rocket, capable of putting 10 metric tons into low Earth orbit

#Sun gun - a parabolic mirror in orbit designed to focus sunlight onto specific locations on the Earth's surface


Secret and special weapons in Showa Japan
#Nuclear projects of the Japanese Army and Japanese Navy
#Chemical and biological weapons research of Unit 731, Unit 100, Unit 516 and other similar sections.
#    * Death ray "Ku-Go"
    Ku-go aimed to employ microwaves created in a large magnetron.
    * Balloon bomb "Fu-Go"
          o Balloon Diameter : about 10 m
          o Bomb loaded : 150 kg Bomb X 1,
          o Incendiary bomb X 2

    The Japanese army built balloon bombs to attack the American mainland. A little more than 9,000 of these balloons were launched. It is estimated about 1,000 made it to the U.S. Only six confirmed deaths are attributed to one these bombs, a woman and five children near Lakeview, Oregon, which exploded as they attempted to move it.

and many more ...

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 10:38 PM

"The US was of course, as usual fighting its future potential battles on the soil of others ...Foolestroupe

"Future potential battles"? So that's you explain it. Frankly, I think your reasoning is off and there is a bit more than a little sour grapes there. You never did like your big brother, did you?

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Bert
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 11:03 PM

It all depends upon the person you get at the customs post.

One time, in Jersey, I gave the British customs an earful about being Nazis becausa of the way we were treated.

Another time in Houston, our plane was delayed and the customs official took out his anger on the passengers and went through everything witha fine tooth comb.

Then in 1992 we returned from Canada at Niagara Falls.
We had taken six teenagers to Woodstock and had taken a side trip to see Dad who lived on the Canadian side of the Falls.
Of course with six teenagers in the truck for a week we had mislaid all of their paperwork and parental permission slips. They were in the Uhaul trailer somewhere.
When we explained thisa to the Customes Officer, he said "Get out of the truck and follow me" He led me to the next customs booth and said to the officer there "I want you to shake this man's hand"
He was so impressed that we had taken six kids to Woodstock that he didn't worry about all of the paperwork.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Feb 11 - 12:02 AM

The US Govt & military understood, especially after 1941, that if they did not crush them 'over there', the battles would spread across the Atlantic - a few abortive attempts were made by the Germans, and a few largely pointless attempts by the Japanese to get munitions to the USA.

Why do you think the USA insisted on all those expensive daylight B17 raids, the intent of was to cripple the industrial might, and distract any long term projects by diverting all resources to essential war production?

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 Feb 11 - 01:51 AM

My Gawd, WWII all over again!?

One question:   What do you figure would have happened to the British Isles if the US hadn't entered the war when it did? Like I said, the English might be speaking German now.

There are undoubtedly quite a number of people who wish that we had entered much earlier.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Feb 11 - 02:53 AM

}The US Govt & military understood, especially after 1941, that if they did not crush them 'over there', the battles would spread across the Atlantic"

You mean to be saying that if the US were threatened to be overwhelmed by some other power that the UK would jump in to help ONLY if they perceived that their turn might come up next?

I would grant that it would be ONE of the reasons.

I just realized that I didn't make clear just who the UK would "jump in to help". Judging by some Mudcatters, I think they might be saying that they would want the UK to help overpower the US.

It was the luck of the draw that some of us weere born and bred in the US just like some of you were born and bred in the UK or Canada or wherever. And most of us feel a sense of allegiance and affection for our home countries. Which is how it should be, no doubt.

Just like having been born into a particular family - we don't necessarily like all of our family nor are we proud of everything they do but we feel an attachment to them all the same. And when someone is perceived to be bad-mouthing them most of us will pick up the nearest cudgel.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Feb 11 - 10:22 PM

"What do you figure would have happened to the British Isles if the US hadn't entered the war when it did?"
....


Some people have not read history obviously... What date did the USA enter WWII? Hint after Pearl Harbour... hopefully most Yanks should know THAT date... :-P

What date were the Germans repulsed in the Battle of Britain, then suspended Operation Sealion, and start Operation Barbarossa? Hint - QUITE some time BEFORE that....

The Russians were bleeding the Germans white by the time the USA got off its arese, so the Germans did not have the resources to attack Britain after that date.... :-P

Gotta LUV them uneducated Yanks ... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Feb 11 - 10:59 PM

"There are undoubtedly quite a number of people who wish that we had entered much earlier."

Well, after The Pacific bunfight started, and the British basically deserted us, it was the Good ol' Yanks who did help us Aussies no little end by sinking major naval enemy assets. But the first time the Japs were halted and turned back, it was due to Aussie 'chocos' - 'chocolate soldiers' = mostly untrained militia (weekend warriors) - who were accused by the idiot Aussie general of cowardice, due to their dogged retreat with heavy losses. It was lucky the soldiers on that parade he abused them at, did not have loaded weapons, or he might have been shot as well as being hissed at.... :-)

So fear not, the Yanks are appreciated here in Oz... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 19 Feb 11 - 11:58 PM

What kind of discipline did they have in the Aus army, Foolstroupe? I should like to have seen any British troops dare to hiss a general on a parade!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Feb 11 - 01:24 AM

When you have men that have performed military miracles with obsolete and almost non existent resources and almost no training - many had never even seen a rifle before marching into the jungle - but being mostly country farm boys, they were not stupid! - then someone who these days is recognized as not all that bright militarily tells them they are cowards because they did not all die, then I wouldn't want to stand in front of them myself.... They WERE disciplined - he got out alive!....

Aussie troops were renowned for thinking the British troops were a bit too stupid cause they would happily and blindly follow stupid orders leading to their death.... a great story is that the Aussies were heading for the Gallipoli Heights when the British Officers (also thought to be not too bright by the Aussie military leadership!) insisted on stopping to brew tea, allowing the Turks to get there before them ... :-) and that was before they ended up in the trenches in France (My mum's father walked thru France - they were not allowed to take their boots off at night, for they might not get them back on in the morning...)

BTW, it was the Aussies who were used as shock troops to gain the most ground near the end of the war in France - under Aussie Generals - in the bits that had been fought over for years ... sounds like good discipline to me ... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Feb 11 - 03:56 AM

All very interesting and impressive, Ft, but not quite an answer to my point. The idea of ORs {= 'other ranks', British services equivalent to US 'enlisted men'} standing on parade & hissing a very senior officer who was addressing them in what they considered a manner which disrespected them, sounds to me like a wish-fulfilment folktale fantasy.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Feb 11 - 04:28 AM

"What do you figure would have happened to the British Isles if the US hadn't entered the war when it did?"
It's equally as intriguing to ask what would have happened if they had entered the war earlier than they did?
Or even more so, what if Pearl Harbor had not happened, if America had not entered the war at all and if the Nazi's had won; would they then have accommodated Fascism?
Various American governments have been somewhat pragmatic when it comes to dealing with fascist dictators.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Feb 11 - 06:18 AM

You don't have to believe "The idea of ORs {= 'other ranks', British services equivalent to US 'enlisted men'} standing on parade & hissing a very senior officer who was addressing them in what they considered a manner which disrespected them" just remember that you then don't understand Aussie Culture of that historical period.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kokoda_Track_campaign#Significance_of_the_Kokoda_Track_campaign

The "running rabbits" incident

On 22 October, after the relief of the 21st Brigade by the 25th Brigade, Blamey visited the remnants of Maroubra Force at Koitaki camp, near Port Moresby. While Rowell had allowed Potts to return to his brigade, Herring was unfamiliar with Potts and preferred to work with officers he knew. Blamey relieved Potts of his command, replacing him with Brigadier Ivan Dougherty, an officer he knew from when Blamey commanded the Northern Territory Force. Blamey cited Potts' failure to hold back the Japanese, despite commanding "superior forces" and, despite explicit orders to the contrary, Potts' failure to launch an offensive to re-take Kokoda. Blamey explained that Prime Minister John Curtin had told him to say that failures like Kokoda would not be tolerated.[86]

Shortly after relieving Potts, Blamey addressed the men of the 21st Brigade on a parade ground. The men of the Maroubra Force expected congratulations for their efforts in holding back the Japanese. However, instead of praising them, Blamey told the brigade that they had been "beaten" by inferior forces, and that "no soldier should be afraid to die". "Remember," Blamey was reported as saying, "it's the rabbit who runs who gets shot, not the man holding the gun."[86] There was a wave of murmurs and restlessness among the soldiers. Officers and senior NCOs managed to quiet the soldiers and many later said that Blamey was lucky to escape with his life. Later that day, during a march-past parade, many disobeyed the "eyes right" order.[86] In a later letter to his wife, an enraged Brigadier Potts swore to "fry his [Blamey's] soul in the afterlife" over this incident. According to witnesses, when Blamey subsequently visited Australian wounded in the camp hospital, inmates nibbled lettuce, while wrinkling their noses and whispering "run, rabbit, run" (the chorus of a popular song during the war).[86]

:-P

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Howard Jones
Date: 20 Feb 11 - 06:24 AM

This is nothing new - US Immigration has always been unfriendly and unwelcoming to visitors. They don't seem to have grasped the concept of tourism, or the idea that people might come to the USA and want to go home again.

My first visit was in 1976 - Bicentennial Year, when the USA had, perhaps for the first time, actively marketed itself abroad as a tourist destination. They didn't appear to have told the Immigration Service, who gave me a hard time at the border for over an hour, even though I had a return plane ticket.

Once across the border, the people couldn't have been nicer.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Feb 11 - 08:12 AM

Returning to the thread subject, I would rather fly to central America via Peru so as not to endure US immigration in Miami. By flying KLM, one can stop off in Bonaire for a couple of days lazing on the way home!

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 20 Feb 11 - 08:57 AM

Don,

I think you are being a bit unfair writing-off Britain's efforts in WWII before 1942.

It is unlikely that we'd be speaking German (though their is a point of view that English is a Germanic language, but that is by the side). Any successful invasion of the British Isle would have been dependant upon air/sea superiority - and the Battle of Britain put paid to that.

The North Africa campaign was another turning point in the war, as this cut off the fuel supplies to Germany.

By 1942 it wasn't a matter of if Germany would win/lose, but when they would lose. The Russian counter-measures after Barbarossa made that a foregone conclusion. So a more relevant question I think is if US hadn't have joined in the war in Europe making an allied counterattack possible, would we all be speaking Russian now?

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Stu
Date: 20 Feb 11 - 09:16 AM

"Somebody had to stop it, and you blokes weren't having all that much luck. You could have ended up speaking German."

You disrespectful, boorish, ignorant oaf.

My grandparents would bristle if they heard this - my grandad was a fireman in the middle of the blitz, in central London when we stood alone as a nation. He saw the effects of bombs and the dead people and the limbs and the blood and carried on fighting fires as bombs reigned down around him - a terrifying experience and I was the only person in the family he ever spoke to it about. At that point we were the only people who stood between Hitler and everyone else, and we held out and fought them off. We were under direct attack for the duration of the war; the idea we weren't having "much luck" is as insulting as it is stupid.

My great uncle, who fought on the front line from D-Day+30 across Europe, along with many other ordinary lads saw things he still struggles to tell me to this day. He went into Labour camps and liberated Jewish children being worked to death, collected the bodies of his comrades after German counter attacks and then was sent to Palestine where the people he saw so brutally slaughtered proceeded to hang his mates from lamp posts. PM me Don and I'll set up a telecon and you can find out why he wasn't having "much luck". You tell him that yourself.

The war was won by ordinary men from the UK as well as ordinary men from across the world, and to suggest that there was some failure of courage and spirit by a nation that had been under attack, fought in France (I had family at Dunkirk too), held the line against the Luftwaffe by pure bravery in the face of overwhelming odds is disingenuous and ignorant at best and insulting at worst.

The US saved us? We saved ourselves, and the US was (a big) part of the operation to liberate occupied Europe. But you saved us? Show some humility and respect.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Maryrrf
Date: 20 Feb 11 - 09:24 AM

I thought this thread was about obnoxious customs, immigration, and TSA officials in the United States. I agree that some of them are obnoxious. I wish they'd receive better training in the public relations aspect of their jobs. They're supposed to keep dangerous elements out, not keep tourists from enjoying a vacation in the USA. Maybe we should start a different thread about WWII (or maybe not....can't we all get along?)

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 20 Feb 11 - 09:33 AM

I think if the whinging USAians had lived through the blitz - being bombed night after night for weeks on end, and then later in the war by rockets, they might take a slightly different view.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: GUEST,Sugarfoot Jack sans cookie for some reason
Date: 20 Feb 11 - 12:01 PM

It's got rag all to do with nationality - ignorance transcends borders. Some of the people I admire and respect most are my US friends, whom I hope to see soon.

However, given that opinions such as Don's do exist and people genuinely see the world as distorted and simplistic as that it's no surprise if you're unlucky enough to bump into one at immigration they act the way they do.

The coppers I met in NYC were more reserved than many people we met there, but still very pleasant and polite. They even agreed to let me have my picture taken with them - ace!

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 20 Feb 11 - 12:33 PM

As an American, I found Don's comment embarrassing. It is that kind of thinking that makes me ashamed of America. If the US had properly entered that war as soon as, millions of lives might have been saved.

What delayed them, I have always wondered. Was it German scientists developing the ultimate weapon? While I am at it. Why has America become so jingoistic, especially regards oil rich countries? Is it because it has the fire power to back up its greed? But I digress.

Anyway... re the original topic. When going through the bureaucratic bullshit in any country, try to be congenial instead of contentious. Show empathy for the agent inspecting your stuff and interrogating you. It is not a pleasant job. He /she probably gets flack from every direction on a continual basis. When it still goes poorly despite your best efforts, let it go and don't let it spoil the rest of your trip. We are not all horrible. In normal situations (which airport security is not) most of us are quite nice.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: SINSULL
Date: 20 Feb 11 - 12:38 PM

So the crux of this thread has nothing to do with US Immigration - but we knew that from the beginning since the offending parties had nothing to do with US Immigration.
What I don't understand is if you dislike USAians so much why hang around here? Are there no British sites where you share your anti-Yank sentiments? Or are you here to flame?

By the way, when I visited Australia, I stayed in a tiny little hostel in Melbourne that was run by some women's temperance group. Didn't know it when my travel agent made the reservation. Anyway, I shared breakfast with a pair of elderly ladies who were painfully upset that I was travelling alone, genuinely concerned about my safety.
I went out exploring that day and came back to find all my clothes laundered, pressed and stacked neatly on my bed. At breakfast the next day they told me that it was the least they could do for a child from the US who had helped their boys in WWII.
Very touching.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 20 Feb 11 - 02:15 PM

I am not anti-American. My original post to this thread stated how from my personal experience I have never had any problems with US customs, immigration, security, etc, albiet my two visits werein 1998 and 1999.

However, when I read postings which come across as anti-British I reserve the right to reply.

There are no 'anti-Yank' connotations - what I said were purely factual, not based on opinion.

Yes, USA did play an important role in the liberation of Western Europe. But, in my opinion, the USA did not save UK from invasion by Germany through military action.

I will, however, concede that the supplies from US in the first half of the war did play an important role.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Feb 11 - 02:49 PM

SPB-Cooperator -that would be my contention. As just about everyone knows, the US at that time was strongly isolationist, not to mention having not long before experienced war, along with the rest of the world. Plus there have always been a great many Americans of German extraction which created a dichotomy that had to be overcome. Plus the war was not at our front door. To me it is not surpsising at all that it was difficult to get the US people revved up to go back to war.

But the US did what it could in the meantime. Without Lend Lease, the allies would have been in difficulty- and it might be noted that those four years of the program cost the US dearly at Hitler's hands.

So, to those who bad mouth the US for not jumping in earlier: give it up.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: GUEST,Sugarfoot Jack sans cookie for some reason a
Date: 20 Feb 11 - 04:52 PM

Certainly no 'anti-yank' sentiments here. Certainly 'anti-ignorance' sentiments here though.

"Or are you here to flame?"

For Christ's sake, Don was the flamer with his intended (or otherwise) backward comments. Read the thread - most people are not attacking Americans per se, they are attacking the self-important official tossers who are the first impression many people get of your country, and first impressions last.

Most people of course, see beyond that particular cliché when they get to know people in the US. Shame the research isn't sometimes done the other way round.

"As an American, I found Don's comment embarrassing. It is that kind of thinking that makes me ashamed of America. If the US had properly entered that war as soon as, millions of lives might have been saved. "

I wouldn't be ashamed - the US doesn't have the exclusive rights to ignorance, as you know if you live in the UK. Anyway, the US helped as we stood alone with the Marshall Plan, although I think we only just paid off the debt a few years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Feb 11 - 05:12 PM

There was a wave of murmurs and restlessness among the soldiers. Officers and senior NCOs managed to quiet the soldiers ~~~~~

That is not exactly "hissing": & how did the officers & NCOs 'quiet' the soldiers?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Feb 11 - 05:14 PM

SPB-Cooperator, I am not "writing off" Britain's efforts during the war. Nor, VirginiaTam, is your "embarrassment" about my remarks justified.

My response was, first, to Bonzo's rather snotty writing off the entire nation because he had a bad experience with customs and immigration. But my response was primarily in response to the REALLY snotty remark from Bonzo—again—here:

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Bonzo3legs - PM
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 07:12 AM

I wonder how many innocent German women and children were killed by USAian 1000 bomber raids in WW2?

What is he trying to say here? That the carnage of the 9/11 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon was something that Americans deserved because of the "many innocent German women and children were killed by USAian 1000 bomber raids in WW2?"

That's what it looks like to me!

Pretty damned mean-spirited, I say!

Robin, as far as "reading history" is concerned, believe me, I have read a great deal of it. But somewhat more importantly, I was very much alive during that period. And aware. I was a kid, but I knew what was going on. Edward R. Morrow's radio reports from London during the "Battle of Britain," the newsreels in the movie theaters (every Saturday, a local matinee, complete with double feature, cartoon, newsreel, and thirteen or fifteen chapter serial). But more importantly (and graphically) was the large format weekly "Life Magazine," packed with photographs connected with the current news, which in the late 1930s and through World War II, centered on on-the-spot photo coverage of the world's trouble spots.

I still have the large volume that my Dad bought of pictures gleaned from Life Magazine covering the war. Weighs a ton. My Dad got it for $10.00 at the time, but right now, to collectors, it's worth a fortune.

But it's a spectacular, graphic history of World War II.

In addition to this, my bookshelves contain many books on the subject (which I have read, some several times), things which I followed on the news, both print and radio (no TV yet), in the newsreels, and in a number of magazines such as "Life."

Too young to participate. But I was there—and very aware, in detail, of what was going on on all fronts.

And it was all reiterated in high school. I got straight A's in history. And when it came to the section on WW II, there were a few times when I had to correct the teacher (he was in the navy during the war, and there were a few theaters of operation he was a bit fuzzy about).

The "Battle of Britain" (phrase coined by Winston Churchill in a speech in 1940) consisted primarily of the Luftwaffe attempting to "soften up" the British people in preparation for an amphibious invasion by destroying RAF bases and the RAF itself, and break the spirit of the British people through constant bombing raids.

At the time, the RAF was quite short of both aircraft and pilots, particularly fighter pilots. But they made up for it with sheer skill and daring. In addition to the British, a substantial percentage of RAF pilots were made up by volunteers from other countries. I don't know how many, but there were over 100 Canadians, and a large contingent of Yanks who served in the RAF. There were three RAF squadrons made up specificlly of American volunteer pilots. They were known as the Eagle Squadrons. And they became operational early in 1941, before the U. S. became officially involved in WW II. With, incidentally, the tacit approval of the U. S. Government.

There was also a substantial contingent of Yanks flying in Asia years before the U. S. got into the war. Known as the "Flying Tigers."

The valiant "Battle of Britain," almost entirely fought in the air, thwarted Hitler's plans to invade Germany at that time.

But it did not defeat Germany and end the war.

Had Germany not been defeated when they were—which involved joint participation of the Allies, things could have worked out very badly. Germany already had the V-1 "buzz bomb" and the V-2 ballistic missile, and it was well on the way to the development of the A-9/A-10, a two-stage potentially intercontinental missile.

It was discovered, with an understandable measure of horror, that Germany was only a few months away from having a functional atomic bomb.

And who do you think they might have used it on first? More than likely, mounted on a V-2 and aimed at London.

No, if the Yanks hadn't been involved in the Second World War, the whole world might very well have become a very unpleasantly different place.

But the defeat of Germany was a joint effort, requiring the effforts all all the allies working together. I am fully aware of that. Some folks here seem to think otherwise, apparentliy.

Don Firth

P. S. By the way, just to make the point clear. There is nothing anti-British intended about what I have been saying. The point is that right from the start of this thread, the comments have been anti-American. By a couple of people who, because of an unpleasant experience with American customs and immigration, feel it incumbent upon them to blame ALL Americans, and have themselves a little orgy of bad-mouthing Americans in general.

My comments have been directed at those people who seem to like getting their jollies that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Feb 11 - 05:46 PM

Well, I've been through customs of several dozen countries and I have yet to meet a happy-go-lucky, let's-share-a-joke immigration official. But for general politeness and civility about the best I have met was when I went into New Orleans in the January after Katrina. No doubt the return of people as tourists helped make things feel as if things were getting back to normal and that would have been in our favour.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Feb 11 - 06:36 PM

QUOTE
I went out exploring that day and came back to find all my clothes laundered, pressed and stacked neatly on my bed. At breakfast the next day they told me that it was the least they could do for a child from the US who had helped their boys in WWII.
UNQUOTE

You do now understand the love/hate between the Aussies and 'Yanks'... :-)

On a one to one basis, those Aussies who did not arrive from external sources after WWII, but have family who was here during that time DO have great affection for our 'cousins'. A lot of Aussie women even married them and went to live there. I have US relatives now.

However, there is a fair deal of 'cultural resistance' towards US cultural imperialism, especially US Financial Imperialism. We had several yanks brought over here to run one of our biggest companies, Telstra, and they ran the company down, fought with the Govt all the time, and walked away with millions of dollars each. Based on performance, they were boorish arrogant ignorant incompetent f*ckw*ts! :-) Funny how we seem to love to get second rate Yanks here for business and politics organizations! But many years ago the same thing happened with Brits when we were enamored of Britain before she dumped us for the EU ... :-)

Frankly, without active Aussie cooperation, US global cultural imperialism would take a very big dent, as we have several critical US military bases here that we are not even allowed to look at, that keep the US global politico/military machine running. When NZ told the Yanks to bugger off from their ports if they would not tell them if they were carrying nuclear weapons, the US arrogantly told them that 'ANZUS was dead'. Then when similar attitudes began to be displayed in Australia, suddenly the US woke up that they COULD NOT TELL US TO BUGGER OFF, because of their critical military bases here! Suddenly US attitudes towards us changed, and great effort was put into placating Aussies! :-) They even let us buy their overpriced weapons (2nd hand at times too...) ...

As to the arrogant attitude displayed that the rest of the world would not have survived WWI & WWII without the US military, their presence in both WW events did help (MANY OTHER countries also assisted!), but my family members who were involved did always believe that 'the Yanks were late turning up'. Many Yanks do not understand that especially in WWII, they would have been bombed and invaded in their homeland eventually if both Axis powers had not been impeded from extending their influence. Ask this - what are the dates for both WWI & WWII that are taught to US citizens? Very different from that taught in other countries! :-)

As to the original thread topic, The USA believes as a general Capitalistic Philosophy in only paying peanuts for critical jobs, and gives little respect for their low paid wage slaves - the old saying is that then you can only expect to get monkeys ... :-)

My boss in one of the offices I worked in said that he could go away for a month and nobody would even notice, but if the lowest paid, least experienced 'tea-maker' kid who carrimosted the paper around the office and to other offices was sick for a day, the place fell apart! It was true!

There have only been a couple of US based Mudcatters who I have found personally obnoxious, and they seem to have eventually left the place... (no names, no pack drill!) (they even seemed to upset Brits and fellow US catters too!) :-) Even those with who(m) I have had 'serious' arguments about music and non-music subjects here, I would still hope to have a friendly drink or meal if ever we met in person.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Feb 11 - 06:48 PM

Don,
The US did not want to get involved because big financial interests were making money in Europe from the war (refer Bush family et al...). Indeed some of their modern financial counterparts are currently (and have been for decades, which is why the world has recently had a rough time) trying to wreck the USA by still fleecing the poor and Govt so they can make more money too.

There were some far sighted US humanists who could see beyond their own wallets but were fiercely resisted by this bunch, thus delaying entry to both big wars. After Pearly Harbour and Hitler declaring war on the USA such people weer forced to shut up or be exposed as traitors. They just bided their time, and waited for more favorable times. They also made money making weapons too ... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Feb 11 - 11:23 PM

Robin, there was no declaration of war before the attack on Pearl Harbor (as requited by International Law). The declaration of war, against both Japan and Germany, came first from Franklin D. Roosevelt, then Congress, on December 8th, 1941.

True, there was a faction such as the Bushes who opposed any idea of going to war with Germany, but most of the reluctance to getting into the war came from the population in general, for obvious reasons. Quite understandable, really. But the American rank-and-file was all in favor of such things as Lend-Lease amd giving as much aid as possible to beleagered countries such as England and China and strenuously opposing the Axis Powers. Had they known about people such as the Bushes and others, there could well have been a few lynchings!

The vast majority of Americans regarded people who dealt with Hitler as the scum of the earth.

I remember.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Stu
Date: 21 Feb 11 - 04:15 AM

"The valiant "Battle of Britain," almost entirely fought in the air, thwarted Hitler's plans to invade Germany at that time."

Huh?

Want to take me up on that phone call. Speak to someone who was there? Spare us the lectures Don; this stuff has come down to us first hand (my own Nan and father was shot at by a Messerschmitt when walking down a West London road) not from books and we know about the death and suffering of the people here - far more intimately than you do. Your lack of respect in this matter is staggering.

As for Bonzo - the chap get's his yah-yah's from winding people up and should be treated accordingly. I don't know if he's anti-American, although it certainly comes across that way. If so, more fool him.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: GUEST,Ana
Date: 21 Feb 11 - 04:32 AM

. . . . . and then there was the man who told the customs official that if wanted his testicles handled without any eye contact he'd just get married . . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Feb 11 - 04:55 AM

Don

The Japanese Embassy Officials were sitting in the office with their declaration of war to be handed in just before the bombs fell. Due to a combination of Japanese stuff up and clever interception and decoding of Japanese secret cables, they were kept waiting till after the bombs fell, thus allowing the US to be 'the innocent victim'.

Hitler declared war on the US after the news came out - the US declared war on both in 'retaliation', but were in a 'state of war' BEFORE the US declared so in emotional terms.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Feb 11 - 02:50 PM

Just a simple question, Sugarfoot.

". . . my own Nan and father was shot at by a Messerschmitt when walking down a West London road."

Since when is a Messerschmitt not an aircraft? Strafing people has always been part of air war tactics.

No lack of respect!??

I had a number of relatives who were lost in the war, and one who managed to survive the Bataan Death March. Frankly, Sugarfoot, I resent the hell out of that remark!

And Robin, where are you getting your history?

I am really amazed and disgusted by the eagerness with which some folks like to dump on Americans, especially their proclivity to blame an entire nation for the perfidy or stupidity of a few.

And as far as Bonzo coming on merely to wind people up, I guess everybody missed that I was winding him up right back.

Fall back and regroup, folks! Think it over and see if you can figure out where you're REALLY coming from.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Feb 11 - 03:58 PM

"And Robin, where are you getting your history?"

Wiki has severe probelms on many areas, but in such areas as WWI & WWIi, there are so many contributers, and so many previous books by so many authors, that it tends to produce a fairly balanced consenus, in agreement with what I learned in School and from my family ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II#The_war_becomes_global

...

On 22 June 1941, Germany, along with other European Axis members and Finland, invaded the Soviet Union in Operation Barbarossa. The primary targets of this surprise offensive[101] were the Baltic region, Moscow and Ukraine, with an ultimate goal of ending the 1941 campaign near the Arkhangelsk-Astrakhan line, connecting the Caspian and White Seas. Hitler's objectives were to eliminate the Soviet Union as a military power, exterminate Communism, generate Lebensraum ("living space")[102] by dispossessing the native population[103] and guarantee access to the strategic resources needed to defeat Germany's remaining rivals.[104]

...

The diversion of three quarters of the Axis troops and the majority of their air forces from France and the central Mediterranean to the Eastern Front[108][109] prompted Britain to reconsider its grand strategy.[110] In July, the UK and the Soviet Union formed a military alliance against Germany[111] The British and Soviets invaded Iran to secure the Persian Corridor and Iran's oil fields.[112] In August, the United Kingdom and the United States jointly issued the Atlantic Charter.[113]

...

German successes in Europe encouraged Japan to increase pressure on European governments in south-east Asia. The Dutch government agreed to provide Japan oil supplies from the Dutch East Indies, while refusing to hand over political control of the colonies. Vichy France, by contrast, agreed to a Japanese occupation of French Indochina.[123] The United States, United Kingdom and other Western governments reacted to the seizure of Indochina with a freeze on Japanese assets, while the United States (which supplied 80 percent of Japan's oil[124]) responded by placing a complete oil embargo.[125] That meant Japan was essentially forced to choose between abandoning its ambitions in Asia and the prosecution of the war against China, or seizing the natural resources it needed by force; the Japanese military did not consider the former an option, and many officers considered the oil embargo an unspoken declaration of war.[126]

Japan planned to rapidly seize European colonies in Asia to create a large defensive perimeter stretching into the Central Pacific; the Japanese would then be free to exploit the resources of Southeast Asia while exhausting the over-stretched Allies by fighting a defensive war.[127] To prevent American intervention while securing the perimeter it was further planned to neutralise the United States Pacific Fleet from the outset.[128] On 7 December (8 December in Asian time zones), 1941, Japan attacked British and American holdings with near-simultaneous offensives against Southeast Asia and the Central Pacific.[129] These included an attack on the American fleet at Pearl Harbor, landings in Thailand and Malaya[129] and the battle of Hong Kong. The February 1942 Fall of Singapore saw 80,000 Allied soldiers captured and enslaved by the Japanese.

These attacks led the U.S., Britain, Australia and other Allies to formally declare war on Japan. Germany and the other members of the Tripartite Pact responded by declaring war on the United States. In January, the United States, Britain, Soviet Union, China, and 22 smaller or exiled governments issued the Declaration by United Nations, which affirmed the Atlantic Charter.[130] The Soviet Union did not adhere to the declaration; it maintained a neutrality agreement with Japan,[131][132] and exempted itself from the principle of self-determination.[113]

...

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Feb 11 - 05:05 PM

Don, we may agree on this ...

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Stu
Date: 22 Feb 11 - 03:26 AM

Don mate, your original remark was disrespectful, ignorant and frankly insulting to many who held the line in this country - alone and against the odds, and you gave no apology. If you don't understand what happened here in WWII, best to shut up about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Feb 11 - 02:30 PM

Sometimes folks create history just to please themselves, much the same as people who quote statistics in an argument. It`s accepted that 93.4% of them make it up as they go along.

The concept of total war was really a world war 2 thing, although the ideas were tested in both Spain and Ethiopia. Prior to that, civilians were pretty much perceived to be oob. The attacks on the UK in what came to be called The Battle of Britain were attacks on civilian centers that were doing little in the way of making war materiel. The purpose was to demoralize the people. It had the opposite effect on the Brits--as does the definition of folk music. The attacks on Germany--reap what you sow. The Dresden raid for example--and recent scholarship has concluded that the death figures were likely nearer to 20,000 rather than reports of 120,000. Dresden was in the business of making lenses, over 50% of which were used in weapons of war. As a target, it was no less acceptable than Coventry.

We can certainly look at the war in little parts and find what. Well the barbarities performed by the Japanese were not confined to an instant or two. They happened with frequent regularity. Revanchist history doesn`t change that. The Nazis were cruel to the people they conquered. When they began to lose, it became clear that there would be no one left who wasn`t innocent of aiding torture or genocide. However, it happened.

I do not think that fire bombing is a good way to fight wars. However, what else would the broken hearts have done. The Russians lost people like ya wouldn`t believe. And what, we should feel sorry for the followers of the swastika. Yeah, right! The Japanese who`d been at war with the Chinese--ask the Chinese what they think about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Feb 11 - 04:41 PM

Sugarfoot, and others, I apologize if you saw my comments as disrespectful.

But that was your perception. It was most definitely not my intent.

But hear this:

I am fully aware—fully aware—of what the British went through during the early days of the war, and I do not belittle that in any way. In fact, I consider it one of the greatest heights that human courage and determination have achieved in the history of the human race.

My remarks, as I have been trying to point out, were addressed primarily to the individual whose twisted thinking came up with the idea that the American people deserved the carnage of the 9/11 attacks as some sort of Karmic revenge for the death and destruction wrought by Americans in the 1,000 plane raids on Germany during the war—as part of the defense of the British people. AS WELL as ourselves and the rest of the free world. After all, as I pointed out, American fliers were not the only ones who participated in those raids.

That remark was "disrespectful, ignorant and frankly insulting" to those innocent civilians in this country who thought they were merely going to work as usual that morning, and then died violently, some of whom chose to leap to their deaths rather than die as the buildings burned and collapsed.

<They deserved that because of America's participation in saving the free world from the Axis Powers seventy years ago?

Talk about "disrespectful, ignorant and insulting."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: GUEST,999
Date: 22 Feb 11 - 05:53 PM

I just thought you were being yourself, Don. Think water and duck's back.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Feb 11 - 08:00 PM

Good advice, 999.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Stu
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 03:14 AM

Fair enough Don, and I apologise if I misunderstood any of you comments, we'll agree to differ on the rest, such as your first post.

Don't let Bonzo wind you up though, he's a really nasty little piece of work and this derailing of his own thread will have cheered him up no end. He loves discord and conflict.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 03:04 PM

(I should probably just leave this alone at this point, but it appears some folks are STILL insisting on misinterpreting what I said.)

Jack, in the main, you seem like a reasonable fellow. Perhaps a slight re-evaluation might be in order.

All I suggested was that had it not been for its allies during WW II, Great Britain might very well not have been able to survive the military onslaught of the Third Reich—at which point, you and a few other people went all wall-eyed and smote me hip and thigh and cast me hence.

Well—I'm sorry. Not for what I said, but for the way some people chose to take it. I was not casting aspersions on the British people. In fact, I greatly admire the British people and everything about the British Isles. My wife and I could live in England quite happily. And in many ways, more happily than in the United States. Were we younger, we would seriously consider it.

I was most definitely NOT "writing off Britain's efforts in WW II before 1942."

But a little sober and realistic thought about those times will, I think, reveal that damned few historians would find fault with my assessment of the situation back then.

Now, as a result of THIS post, I expect I will hear mostly silence, some others may still have their noses out of joint, and there may even be a muttered apology or two.

From one grossly misinterpreted comment of mine, everybody assumes they know the entirety of my opinions and attitudes.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: GUEST,999
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 03:12 PM

` ... went all wall-eyed and smote me hip and thigh and cast me hence.`


May I quote you on that, Don (qm). It has a certain je ne sais pas quois about it . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 05:32 PM

"All I suggested was that had it not been for its allies during WW II, Great Britain might very well not have been able to survive the military onslaught of the Third Reich"

And it was pointed out that they had already resisted, and the onslaught had been turned away from them towards Russia, leaving them room to breathe and recover! "its allies"!!! - All the British Commonwealth countries and expats of many invaded countries had already flocked to its aid, while the US was still scratching its bum! :-) :-P

Now if you had ONLY suggested that without the help of the US both by means of 'subtle political acts' before 1941 and active support after in supplying food and materials (steel, wood) and military aid after 1941, it saved the British people from starvation and increased the British ability to build up, then perhaps you would not have been smote hip and thigh and cast hence ...


"But a little sober and realistic thought about those times will, I think, reveal that damned few historians would find fault with my assessment of the situation back then."

Well, you can have your point of view, no matter how misguided it may be to others.

Now if you had only said "damned few AMERICAN historians would find fault with my assessment of the situation back then", we all would have instantly and heartily agreed with you ... :-P

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 06:01 PM

"Now if you had ONLY suggested that without the help of the US both by means of 'subtle political acts' before 1941 and active support after in supplying food and materials (steel, wood) and military aid after 1941, it saved the British people from starvation and increased the British ability to build up, then perhaps you would not have been smote hip and thigh and cast hence ..."

Robin, you have taken my use of the word "help," parsed it, interpreted it very narrowly and attributed that interpretation to me, and generally sliced-and-diced it to suit yourself.

What do you—seriously—think I meant by the words "help" and "assistance?"

Don Firth

P. S. Any competent and unbiased historian of any nationality.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 10:00 PM

"What do you—seriously—think I meant by the words "help" and "assistance?""

In the context I heard, and the way it is usually heard - military help and assistance, in the same way the US has been 'helping and assisting (military aid)' all over the world since WWII....

:-P

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 10:34 PM

Sorry, Robin, but there is obviously no effort at genuine communication here. All I can see here are efforts to find reasons to put Yanks down.   

Let's just drop it, okay? See you on other threads.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Feb 11 - 01:07 AM

Don - I have US relatives.

You obviously can only see your society thru the brainwashing it gives you, which is why you cannot understand those (like Bin Laden!) who feel that you were not really their friend. Unlike him, I'm not interested in trying to 'make you or your country suffer', but when you say something that I cannot, as an outsider with a different agenda to the bias your country writes history with, agree with, I will tell you, whether you like it, or agree with it or not. it's because I respect you, not that I'm trying to put anybody down!

See ya round like a rissole mate!

:-P

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Feb 11 - 01:28 AM

"You obviously can only see your society thru the brainwashing it gives you. . . ."

A standard, but pretty limp charge to level at someone over a different opinion. That gate swings both ways, Robin. No one should forget that.

Let's just let it go at that, okay?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Feb 11 - 03:16 AM

"charge to level at someone over a different opinion. That gate swings both ways, Robin. No one should forget that."

I remember well when I was little that we here in Australia were constantly brainwashed how wonderful Britain was, and how good for us She was. Then it turned to "All the Way with LBJ", when we were being brainwashed about Uncle Sam, and how good for us He was.

I've grown up. I learned about Australia brainwashing us all the time about how non-racial and multi-cultural we are supposed to be. Then I go and listen to people all around me making racist comments all the time.

If you can SEE the gate swinging, you don't have to get hit in the teeth with it all time. You charged in (for a start) with childish hyperbolic claims that the British (and many other countries) would now all be speaking German if not for Uncle Sam, something which was easily and clearly disproved, among many other insensitive bigoted claims. Perhaps you don't like it when people from other countries say that Americans as a nation often appear to others to think and act like immature uneducated teenagers....

I still like Americans, and when they start to flee what looks like eventually becoming a third rate repressed country with massive amounts of poor, we Aussies will probably open up our land and hearts and give them shelter...

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Feb 11 - 06:12 PM

Don Firth has left the building.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Feb 11 - 07:08 PM

One quick little dart back in.

Robin, I didn't say "would" be speaking German, I said "might" be speaking German. DO try to read more carefully.

(That gate cracking you in the nose like that must smart! Sorry about that.)

Now Don Firth has left the building.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Feb 11 - 07:39 PM

Oh, hell! Let's be really precise, lest someone still try to characterize me as an anglophobe. This is exactly what I said (cut and pasted from the post that started WW III):

"You could have ended up speaking German."

INCLUDING, let me point out, the underlined "could" in the original post.

Apology accepted.

TTFN. Real life calls.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 12:05 AM

QUOTE
Oh, hell! Let's be really precise, lest someone still try to characterize me as an anglophobe. This is exactly what I said (cut and pasted from the post that started WW III):

    "You could have ended up speaking German."

INCLUDING, let me point out, the underlined "could" in the original post.
UNQUOTE

I didn't say you were an Anglophobe, just that that comment, no matter what finesse of language you want, was proved to be a puerile uneducated one after 22 June 1941... and after Pearl Harbour and Hitler's declaration of war aginst the USA, it's pointless speculating, or somehow making 'post hoc' your claim about the inevitable possibility of German speaking Englishmen...

REQUOTE
On 22 June 1941, Germany, along with other European Axis members and Finland, invaded the Soviet Union in Operation Barbarossa. The primary targets of this surprise offensive[101] were the Baltic region, Moscow and Ukraine, with an ultimate goal of ending the 1941 campaign near the Arkhangelsk-Astrakhan line, connecting the Caspian and White Seas. Hitler's objectives were to eliminate the Soviet Union as a military power, exterminate Communism, generate Lebensraum ("living space")[102] by dispossessing the native population[103] and guarantee access to the strategic resources needed to defeat Germany's remaining rivals.[104]
...
The diversion of three quarters of the Axis troops and the majority of their air forces from France and the central Mediterranean to the Eastern Front[108][109] prompted Britain to reconsider its grand strategy.[110] In July, the UK and the Soviet Union formed a military alliance against Germany[111] The British and Soviets invaded Iran to secure the Persian Corridor and Iran's oil fields.[112]
UNQUOTE

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Van
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 02:41 AM

Someone mentioned cars stopping to allow people to cross the road and that it would never happen in the UK. It's quite common here. (Benefit of living in a small town.),
However yesterday I saw a driver stop and wave a woman to cross the road and she didn't, probably waiting for someone, he then unleashed a torrent of abuse - arms waving and gesticulating. So a rather odd interpretation of politeness.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Stu
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 04:07 AM

That was me. What I was trying to illustrate was the different approach to manners and politeness my wife and I found in the US when we were there last year. While we in South Dakota waiting to cross a road in town this gent car stopped in the most unlikely place to see us safely across a three-lane highway; there is no way this would happen here. It wasn't letting someone nip across the road as we all do as our roads are generally smaller. The only equivalent I can think of is some stopping on an empty motorway to let you cross one of the carriageways safely by keeping an eye on what's going on behind..

Of course people have manners here but they are also more miserable and often lack even the most basic manners such as saying "thank you" if you open the door for them; we found a different sort of attitude in the US, people were inquisitive and gracious and it came as a bit of a shock to be served by all these cheery people wanting to chat.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 06:51 AM

When driving to work yesterday, I slowed down to negotiate a section of road with very bad pot holes, but did the car behind me slow down? No, he accelerated and overtook me at speed into the path of oncoming vehicles - the typical kind of inconsiderate oik one finds in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Hideous USAian immigration
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 25 Feb 11 - 05:17 PM

Bonzo3legs

That behavior reminds me ...

I remember in the 1970s, when Aussie journalists would ask foreigners who had just stepped off a plane "How do you like Australia". and other moronic journalistic behavior (they may still ask that, but it's no longer broadcast!)...

A famous international racing driver was in Australia, and was asked "What do you think of Aussie drivers on the road?" he shocked many Aussies, but I agreed totally with him when he replied "Most Aussie drivers don't drive beyond the front of their bonnet!"