BS: The Scourge of Alcohol

Subject: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 May 11 - 11:49 AM

I am 75 years old. I don't think I've led a particularly sheltered life; there has been a lot of sadness, even tragedy, in it, but recently I've gone beyond being dismayed at the ubiquitous problem of alcohol addiction.

Six months ago I started managing this 41-unit apartment building. My background is in management so the inherent problems are not unfamiliar to me. However, I have never in my life met so many people who are bound by addictions.

True enough that almost half of our tenants are low-income so maybe our numbers are proportionately skewed. But it seems like a very high proportion of them are either 'on the wagon', have been court-ordered to rehab, recently were freed from prison with an injunction against drugs of any kind, or are in the midst of a binge. Just the other day, a married couple - a stable, paying-their-own-way couple - told me that they both are drinking again and are going back into rehab.

Mind you, I like a glass of wine, or three, when I'm out and about, and if I only remembered to buy it, I would enjoy wine with my dinner.

But if it would ensure that just one person were able to break the bonds I would, without question, promise to never touch the stuff again.

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 May 11 - 12:01 PM

Perhaps, Ebbie, the Scourge of Poverty and/or The Scourge of Hopelessness are equally, if not more, to blame?

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: GUEST,erbert
Date: 09 May 11 - 12:20 PM

..and not forgetting the $courge of Corporate Marketing, $ponsorship, Lobbying, and Alco-Industry $hareholder's Ruthle$$ Profiteering..???

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: DebC
Date: 09 May 11 - 12:28 PM

I think that addiction knows no social class nor income status and that addiction happens to even those that are financially well off. The difference comes when the financially well-off are able to afford to deal with their addictions (counseling, rehab) whilst those who are addicted and in poverty have less of a chance to be helped because the services are not available to them for many reasons.

I am also stating this from a USA perspective. Not sure about other countries.

I have a few close fiends and relations who are clean and sober and they have become much better persons because of it.

On the flip side, my younger brother, Michael died in 2007 from complications of a meth addiction. The saddest part was that Michael refused to get help.

You can watch a video slideshow
that I did a couple of years ago as a tribute to my brother.

Addiction *is* a scourge and I wish that we as a society would see it for what it is: an illness and not a personality responsibility issue.

Debra Cowan

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: alanabit
Date: 09 May 11 - 12:34 PM

My father was an alcoholic, who was mainly on the wagon for the last twenty odd years of his life. When my mother died, in 2000, he deliberately reactivated his alcoholism and died two years later - effectively suicide. I think the tendency to drink too much has many causes, but I do know that to be able to persist with drinking long after one enjoys it, is something else. When I have had too much of anything, I simply have to stop it and leave it alone for a while. I am lucky to have this in built braking mechanism. It has nothing to do with will power. My father was a far better man than I in every respect and he was a great deal stronger. It is good luck and nothing else which prevents me from going down the same path.

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: alanabit
Date: 09 May 11 - 12:35 PM

We crossed posted and Debra put it better than I did!

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 May 11 - 01:49 PM

I agree with every one of you - what is not to agree with!- but I really truly wish one could stop it at the source. By that, I do NOT mean prohibition- but somehow to stop kids from starting. If a family that has gotten sober somehow got it across to their kids that, being high-risk, they should never take that first drink...?

Last year I interviewed 28 homeless people in a project that had been set me, and I'll never forget the wonderment on one man's face when he said that one of his sisters "had never drunk", that his dad drank and his mother drank and his other sisters and brothers drank but not this sister. His expression was somewhere between admiration and noncomprehension.

In Alaska, where I live, there is a very high rate of alcoholism and some people say they got drunk the first time at age 9. One man told me that he was under seven when he got into the adults' stash and his dad laughed and laughed and thought his staggering around was so cute.

Poverty in all its ills, I agree, is a potent factor - but we have people here who are not particularly poor. About a third of our tenants are on assisted housing vouchers but the others are working and have steady paychecks. There doesn't seem to be a significant difference in the incidence of addiction.


The only frame of reference I have is knowing how difficult it was for me to stop smoking, and the fact that I didn't succeed in stopping until I recognized that I was ready.

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: DebC
Date: 09 May 11 - 02:06 PM

Ebbie writes:
"The only frame of reference I have is knowing how difficult it was for me to stop smoking, and the fact that I didn't succeed in stopping until I recognized that I was ready"

And that is the key. One cannot stop an addiction until they are ready, or as AA says, "the addict hits bottom". I can totally relate to alanabit's post. There was a time in my life, a time of extreme unhappiness coupled with a very stressful job and I was drinking way more than I should have. 14 years and some life changes later, I can have one drink every so often, but it's not something I "crave". I was a smoker as well and that was extremely hard to give up, but I did.

My husband (who has no addictions except to good food :-)) once asked me about the difference between being addicted to cigarettes and alcohol or drugs. The only answer I could think of (and I am no expert) is that alcohol and drugs change behaviour and personalities.

I would much rather be with my friends that are sober. I do not like being around drunk people, and for myself, I don't like being out of control.

Like alanabit, I too am thankful that I can stop when I want. Addicts don't have that choice.

Debra

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: Will Fly
Date: 09 May 11 - 02:31 PM

There are many interesting pieces of research about genetic and environmental factors in addiction. Here's a typical instance...

I'm personally of the opinion that a complex genetic makeup gives rise to people with a predisposition to addiction, one which makes itself shown through particular social and environmental circumstances.

I smoked for several years as a young man but, when I decided to stop, had no problem in doing so - stopped overnight and stayed stopped - about 40 years ago. I enjoy beer and wine but I know that, if the doctor said, "No more alcohol for you", I would be able to stop immediately in a similar way. I don't think is so much willpower as a precondition in me to resist addiction - but who knows...?

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 May 11 - 02:51 PM

Will Fly, when I finally stopped smoking - after 25 years- it was not a matter of will power. All the previous times I had tried to stop it was. One of my brothers - who all stopped smoking before I did - told me not to even try to quit until I was ready, that it was so much easier then.

The day arrived when I realized that the fact it would be difficult to quit was not the point, the point was that I no longer wanted to be a smoker. Mind you, I still wanted to smoke - but I didn't want to be a smoker. :)

Do you think that alcohol addiction works the same way? I know they always say one has to hit bottom - well, smoking doesn't have the same component.

One interesting case, although stunningly tragic, was one 54-year-old woman who had been dry for 8 years. When she fell off the wagon she fell really hard- involving nakedness, feces, burnt pan marks on the carpets, the whole bit. I suspect that that is what she had hit 8 years before when she went sober. (She is no longer here; she went down to California to a clinic.)

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 May 11 - 03:02 PM

Misuse of alcohol is of course a serious problem. But there is no evidence that trying to ban it would make things any better, and plenty of evidence that to attempt this would be totally ineffective and would introduce other terrible problems - notably the history of Prohibition of Alcohol in the USA, and perhaps even more clearly, the nightmare consequences of the attempts to suppress the use of other psychoactive drugs.

Of course it can be done, at least to some extent, if you have a society like Saudi Arabia, but that is quite a price to pay...

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: gnu
Date: 09 May 11 - 03:14 PM

Many times, drinking leads to poverty leading to more drinking and the dog starts chasing it's tail.

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 May 11 - 03:25 PM

Scourges tend to play well together-- TOO well.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 May 11 - 03:43 PM

Kevin, I thought I made it clear that I don't think prohibition is the answer. At all.

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: frogprince
Date: 09 May 11 - 03:49 PM

I was raised tee-totaler; my mother said she disagreed with preachers who said all sin was sin, with none worse than another; she knew that cussing was bad, but smoking was worse, and drinking alcohol was even worse. I've long since given up condemning anyone for enjoying a drink. About all I care for myself is a little white wine (I'll admit to really liking a bit of dry champaign) or an Irish Coffee or Kahlua and Cream. But there are things about the "sophisticated" culture of drinking that grate on me sometimes. I remember a young woman friend years ago chirping, "What's a party without alcohol". It would have come off as preachy at the time if I had answered what came to mind: "A chance to gather with friends, talk, joke, and have fun"; it had never once occured to me that you needed alcohol to make that good.
I have about as much interest in having an enema as in dressing up and going to a cocktail party.

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 09 May 11 - 03:58 PM

I've read that scientists are discovering types of genes which cause addiction by stimulation of dopamine receptors, triggered by the first few drinks a person ever has. (In fact, any substance or activity which releases dopamine becomes the trigger if one has inherited these genes or parts of a gene, so it could include gambling, drugs, nicotine, even sex) The brain drives the person's desire to repeat the pleasure rush, and the addiction is engendered. People without this genetic structure can experience the pleasure, but are not driven to keep it going by repeatedly, say, imbibing alcohol. It would seem from this that personality,life experiences etc have less to do with addiction than one's genetic make-up.

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: LilyFestre
Date: 09 May 11 - 04:15 PM

Debra,

   Both the music and the slideshow are wonderful!!!!
I think alcoholism touches people of every post in life. I've seen it more than I'd like to think about or share.

Michelle

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: Leadfingers
Date: 09 May 11 - 07:29 PM

I will ALWAYS be grateful to the Nastiest man I have ever met ! He owned the bar in Kowloon where I worked in the mid seventies , and he proved to me that I would neve be Alcohol dependant - If I could do six 45 minute sets six dys a week in his bar wihout getting lathered I was only ever going to be a social piss Head !!
I can sympathise with those who ARE dependant !

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: Art Thieme
Date: 09 May 11 - 10:23 PM

98% of police reports here are alcohol related. Our county, for some stage dynamic and set of reasons, is number ONE in the number of alcoholics, per capita, of all the counties in the ENTIRE USA. Sometimes Dade County, Florida will spurt into the lead, but then, we have the "honor" for a year or two -- once again. We are LaSalle County --about 100 miles S.W. of Chicago. I commuted from here to the Chicago folk scene and also my jobs singing on steamboats on the Mississippi River. And found time to tour too.
We came here for the schools--and that was a good move. Then illness hit Carol, and 20 years later, me. --- All is well tonight though. I can feel Summer in the cool breezes wafting in as I'm pecking this out. Life is a gas. Sometimes pure oxygen and sometimes a fart. But everyone I know drives defensively as all hell. In this county, it's the best way to stay alive.

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: J-boy
Date: 10 May 11 - 01:37 AM

"Work is the curse of the drinking classes"- You Know Who.

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 May 11 - 03:53 AM

While alcohol dependency is damaging, and even excessive non-dependent alcohol use can be physically and mentally damaging, I am worried about the tendency of those who oppose alcohol to appear to oppose pleasure.

Pleasure is good.

Many types of alcoholic drinks are pleasant as such.

Alcohol reduces inhibition and thus facilitates interpersonal enjoyment.

It is a convenient way of escaping stress - an all too prevalent curse of today's society.

It assists in reducing (temporarily) awareness of poverty, and many types of suffering and pain.

As a better writer than I once said "Alcohol may therefore be said to be an equivocator".

Personally I like it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 10 May 11 - 06:35 AM

When I was young I admit that there were times when it was experimental drinking with pals but paid the price by being awfully sick the ceiling spinning and feeling not as grown-up as I thought I was. That was punishment enough. A couple of times I had got it wrong by mixing drinks or drinking on an empty stomach but learnt the hard way. In the 90's and in the beginning of the Noughties I had a new freedom I was divorced and with that freedom came festivals. Living on the Isle of Wight the culture which is based around drink mostly beer or cider which be had any day at any time including the home brewed stuff, the employment situation is bad but the friends I'd made there still found a way to drink. When I moved back to mainland UK I found that alcohol abuse was around there too but in a different way. The ladette culture was encouraging women that it was alright to go out with the girls and get hammered and countless pubs prommoting 'Happy Hours' two drinks for the price of one popped up everywhere. I am glad to say that this has never appealed to me and now enjoy only like the odd glass of wine or three at the end of the working week with a meal rather than drinking for the sake of it or a rural pub garden with family. Even then I restrict it to two pints of beer or two glasses of wine now. Sometimes if I forget to buy a bottle it doesn't bother me at all to have none. The thing with drink it's like all addictive things it temporarily blots out the reality of life for a while but the problem remains whether high, drunk or sober. I do know an alcoholic a close friend of mine from the Island and I see how he suffers with the shakes and sweats but there is nothing I can do or say. He is the kindest nicest person luckily not a violent one but he cannot go without a morning hit. It is one of the reasons why although I love him I am afraid to get too close or advise him to stop because it just would not work in his case.

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 May 11 - 06:51 AM

I certainly know people who prioritise spending on beer and fags above other wiser expenditures - but they probably think the same of me and Volvos. I'm generally fairly "live and let live" - except for mosquitos, wasps, and right wing political parties. Oh, and Japanese knotweed and honeyfungus.

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: olddude
Date: 10 May 11 - 05:07 PM

It is destroyed so many of my relatives and friends ... It is a curse and I could not agree with you more Ebbie. I am so glad myself, brother and sister never inherited that gene ... but many of my cousins did ...
terrible

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: gnu
Date: 10 May 11 - 05:24 PM

Well, I think the whole thing about genes is bullshit. I think it's to do about education and circumstance in life.

If you never take a drink, you cannot become addicted. Doesn't matter squat about your genes anymore than your jeans. I think that's bogus fluff set about by the booze companies to exonerate themselves from instigation of addictions through various marketing techniques. It's like saying that people get fat because it's in their genes... it's because they keep pouring fat in their jeans... for whatever reasons of which there are many. Same thing with smokes and booze and "drugs".

The first drinks are cheap at Happy Hour. But, they get expensive as soon as Happy Hour is over.

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: Wesley S
Date: 10 May 11 - 05:30 PM

At my age Happy Hour is a nap.

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 10 May 11 - 05:32 PM

gnu, I wonder why some people can take drink and then leave it, but others go on and on, seemingly unable to stop? For instance, I thoroughly enjoyed a half of Adnam's bitter when younger, but never ever got drunk. But others would have pint after pint, week in and week out. Some of those may have gone on to become alcoholic. Why the difference? Is it just a personality weaknesss, lack of self-control, or a genetic disposition to addictive behaviours?
Why do folk keep on 'pouring fat into their jeans', while others know when to stop? This to me is the mystery.

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: Wesley S
Date: 10 May 11 - 05:47 PM

I'm a firm believer that SOME people have a genetic factor that leads them to addictive behaviors - drinking, drugs, sex. And combinations of them too. I'm guessing that the worst of the addicts have little or no control over their addictions unless they decide to do something about it. That's the first step. Outside influences are little help.

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 10 May 11 - 06:11 PM

I think it is absolutely genetic and metabolic...and I suspect related to diabetes and metabolic syndrome and the whole question of diet and nutrition and what particular types of bodies need. I suspect that with the right diet, probably a high protein, high fat, high vegetable, low starch diet, it would be way reduced..and that if people even ate the right food before drinking it would be way reduced. I suspect there are vitamin deficiencies involved, ethnicity of course is involved..through genetics and culture both probably..times of day of drinking, stress levels..it is a huge biological conundrum..but yes, people can avoid it by not ever drinking. That is basically what I did..first I grew up hearing you're Irish you can't drink..second..I never wanted to start on something I would have to give up later because I know I would not be good at that, and third, I suspected I might have a weakness there since I get severely hypoglycemic (using the term incorrectly). mg

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: Joe_F
Date: 10 May 11 - 08:22 PM

There are addictions & addictions. I am not a drunk, but I would rather be one than watch network TV 5 h a day (said to be the national average).

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: Art Thieme
Date: 10 May 11 - 09:16 PM

My uncle was the town drunk. He lived in Chicago, When he died, he was cremated. It took 6 months for the fire to go out.

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: gnu
Date: 10 May 11 - 09:29 PM

"Why the difference? Is it just a personality weaknesss, lack of self-control, or a genetic disposition to addictive behaviours?"

And, I might add that the same question is asked/answered in ensuing posts, but incorrectly IMO.

I answered all in my last post... it is the lack of education OR the circumstance in life or both.

If a child is taught properly by it's parents it will understand the "scourge" and avoid it unless circumstances prevail. As far as a "gene" being involved, when one considers my hypothesis, the only gene that could be considered to apply to a default situation is the "stunned as me arse gene."

Don't stick your hand in the fire as it will burn you means just that. The stupid ones will try it... and get burned. It isn't an addiction gene... it's a SAMA gene. OR it's a result of circumstance from which the person is trying to flee mentally from stress for some time with the aid of a stimulant. Unfortunately, that temporary flight from reality may be repeated "as necessary" and often results in addiction which spirals out of control.

Am I makin any sense?

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: Wesley S
Date: 10 May 11 - 09:41 PM

Well these addictions - esp alcohol - tend to run in families. But that's probably more "nurture" than "nature".

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: Janie
Date: 10 May 11 - 10:05 PM

Just a few links from a quick search using the terms addiction and the brain, addiction and genetics and addiction, brain, genetics.

gnuzer, I luvs ya', but yer off base on this one. No reasonable person can refute the evidence that genetic vulnerability to addiction is definitely not bullshit.

Few reasonable people will argue that denial of danger is one of the hallmarks of youth. Ask a parent of a child with diabetes or siliac disease.

Few reasonable people will argue that an awful lot of learning comes from experience and mistakes.

That learning process is dependent on both developmental factors and the the complex brain coordinating imput in certain ways. If a particular brain doesn't coordinate in those ways, however, all hell breaks loose. Part of the vulnerability to addiction has to do with numerous genes that influence how the brain functions.


Only way to find out, really, is to take in an addictive substance and see what happens. What is genetic is the degree of vulnerability. Everyone has some vulnerability to addiction. Tie some one down with extremely low vulnerability and force morphine on them long enough and they will develop not only the physical dependence, but also the addiction, i.e. the craving.


Way oversimplified, but basically accurate

Science of addiction info

Genetic vulnerability

addiction genetics

What none of the above links make really apparent is the real function of the part of the brain in which is seated the "pleasure center." This is a very primal part of the brain that, to oversimplify, is responsible for generating the impulses on which basic human survival depends - the seat of many of the impulses and behaviors that we think of as instinctual.

See the rat.

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 10 May 11 - 10:34 PM

The only frame of reference I have is knowing how difficult it was for me to stop smoking, and the fact that I didn't succeed in stopping until I recognized that I was ready.

It may sound odd coming from someone who has been hospitalized a couple of times with alcohol but I think smoking might in some ways be harder to stop - I've never come close.

That said, I think alcohol has far darker sides...

The dependency side is frightening. I've had times when I needed a litre of spirit a day just to function and at one point before the body packed in was even able to drink on top of that while playing in a fairly high standard session. But then comes the next morning and for me anxiety attacks, fears, feeling shaky, throwing up, etc. until the alcohol kicks in. Even then, sometimes, I've made myself so ill I'm bed ridden.

You can't just stop from that point, although personally, when the body has permitted, I have been able to self reduce back down again...
But then I let something start me off again. We are all different but here is how it sort of goes with me...

I can be off alcohol completely for 6 months or sometimes (I did this weekend for the first time in months for a local festival and haven't had or wanted any since - doing that does not spark me off into weeks of heavy drinking) have a few drinks without problem. Even months of having a pint a few nights in the week doesn't but...

Then comes the storm, I try my supposed "coping strategies" but eventually I wind up reaching for the one thing I know can just knock me out and give me mental oblivion for a while... I know full well I am sunk for a couple of weeks but I'll tell myself it won't happen and am usually so fed up and angry I don't care... I might care the next day but when I hit the drink hard in this way, I'm already feeling ill and trying to combat what feels like withdrawal to me.

The whole thing is made worse for me as after a do like that, I need a good month after the episode to recover or I snap at smaller things and basically get into some sort of downwards vicious spiral...

Last time I really blew it was not long after I came out of hospital and a time when I knew I was vulnerable. Folkinfo got hacked, dropped the rebuild as I was finding the temptation to have a drink or two to "cope" with the reconstruction coming in. Father then starts throwing tantrums, somewhere along the line my new computer chair breaks, somewhere else I decide not to let it get me down and played music so my amp blows up, and so it goes until I snap again...

I find it all quite odd. Common wisdom seems to suggest that if someone who has had problems with alcohol has a drink, that's it and may worry and or tell me off if I have a drink.

Personally, I'm feeling much stronger mentally than I was in December last year so it would take more to get me down and I have had a reasonably trouble free time with life in general but I sometimes myself one question and it's quite a different one to their ideas and concerns.

It could be tomorrow or perhaps in two or three years time but the big question to me is how will I react next time one thing after another goes wrong and I reach my screaming point?

Will I have the sense and say "no" or will I eventually turn to something I know (and I can not unlearn this knowledge) can (however destructive) switch things off for a day for me...

I wish I could say I'm cured of that but the truth is I simply do not know. I just hope I never do it again.

Oh forgot there is one difference this time round. I have been prescribed some sort of mild sedative that I can take as and when I feel the need (which has been probably about 4-5 times in 6 months). I know I can get a similar effect to the calming effect a pint would have on me say if for example I was feeling nervous about a doctors appointment but that to me is a small problem. I'm told I can double the dosage if I really feel I'm going to blow it grand style but how it works out has yet to be tested. The situations that have got me to screaming point simply have not happened over the last 6 months.

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: GUEST
Date: 11 May 11 - 01:41 AM

The poster is gargoyle.....who else? -Joe Offer-

---

Blessing of the Beer.

V. Adjutorium nostrum in nomine Domini.
R. Qui fecit caelum et terram.

V. Dominus vobiscum.
R. Et cum spiritu tuo.

Oremus.

Bene+dic, Domine, creaturam istam cerevisiae, quam ex adipe frumenti producere dignatus es:
ut sit remedium salutare humano generi, et praesta per invocationem nominis tui sancti;
ut, quicumque ex ea biberint, sanitatem corpus et animae tutelam percipiant.
Per Christum Dominum nostrum.

R. Amen.

Et aspergatur aqua benedicta.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

more available @half-mind.com

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 11 May 11 - 10:10 AM

Jon, I think you are right about smoking being harder. It is something to do with with the nicotene content in the blood which is has to be got out of the system, it is also habit forming because people tend to smoke at certains times when stressed or just after a meal or for something to pass the time and it only takes one to undo the good from giving up and the chemicals added doesn't help. But it can be done. Irritability is one of the effects from quitting at first, but a mild fancy for a cigarette does happen from time to time no matter how many months have passed. Weight gain is another factor which might delay some people from quitting and because there are no outward signs like slurred speech as with alcohol, unless someone is smoking in a restricted place you can't really tell unless the person was actually having a heart attack or stroke, I don't think it is necessarily a genetic thing but some people defiinitely have more of an addictive side than others. Some people are able to work out the risks of drinking and can monitor it and others carry-on as they always have done not being sexist but some men still do like to call into a pub on the way home after work especially after a particularly hard day. Out of choice for me I would rather call into the pub around the corner for one drink than smoke my way through a packet of cigarettes ideally. The glass of wine or beer would be cheaper too.

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 May 11 - 01:50 PM

The idea that the problem with giving up is determined by which drug it is, in a way that is consistent across all users, never seems convincing to me.

That's especially the case for tobacco. Clearly for many people it's desperately hard to give up, virtually impossible even. For others it's no problem at all even after years of smoking. I was fortunate in that I never had any problem. Just decided to stop, and stopped.

I don't think it's a matter of willpower, but rather of the way our body chemistry works. There may well be other types of addiction for which my experience would be the reverse.

And the reason I think that matters is because generalisations about how addictive or non-addictive various drugs are - ranging from caffeine to heroin - are liable to have effects. We hear from friends about how desperately hard it is to give up smoking, and we believe that will apply to us, and that in itself can make it harder than it really should be. Or it might go the other way - friends find it easy to give up some recreational substance, and we assume that will apply to us as well, and maybe in our case we will find it desperately hard

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 May 11 - 02:24 PM

Perhaps you are right on that side McGrath and that we can only give how difficult we find it ourselves, at least from the mental side of things.

I suspect the physical problems such as the danger (if dependant) of just stopping drinking or (apparently it's worse than heroin, not that I've touched either) the unpleasantness of trying to get off methadone may be different matters.

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 May 11 - 02:33 PM

When heroin was introduced it was promoted to doctors as a "non-addictive morphine substitute". That's no doubt true for some people, but...

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: Maryrrf
Date: 11 May 11 - 02:37 PM

As usual, what Kevin says makes perfect sense. It obviously is a very complex question, different for everybody, and everyone's battle against addiction is unique and personal to them. I only have experience with cigarettes - I don't know if I would characterize quitting as desperately hard, but it certainly not easy.

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: alanabit
Date: 11 May 11 - 02:37 PM

The usual good sense from McGrath, of course and it really is important to take into account the different make up of different people. While I agree that makes sense, I have heard from various medics that heroin, for instance, is similar enough to some of the chemicals that the body produces naturally that it can trick the body into believing that it is necessary in ever increasing quantities. It is no wonder the stuff is lethally addictive for many people.
I wonder if the body is actually capable of producing alcohol in small quantities in certain cases? I believe it is a naturally occurring compound.

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 May 11 - 04:25 PM

From Wikipedia:

[Production] Endogenous

Several of the benign bacteria in the intestine use fermentation as a form of anaerobic respiration. This metabolic reaction produces ethanol as a waste product, just like aerobic respiration produces carbon dioxide and water. Thus, human bodies contain some quantity of alcohol endogenously produced by these bacteria.

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 May 11 - 04:31 PM

When heroin was introduced it was promoted to doctors as a "non-addictive morphine substitute". That's no doubt true for some people, but...

I think that was poor research and bad marketing rather than anything else.

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 May 11 - 04:34 PM

Again from Wikepedia:

Bayer marketed the drug as a cure for morphine addiction before it was discovered that it rapidly metabolizes into morphine. As such, diacetylmorphine is essentially a quicker acting form of morphine. The company was embarrassed by the new finding, which became a historic blunder for Bayer

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 May 11 - 05:19 PM

This thread has confined itself thus far, except in one passing ref, to substances and physical addictions ~ alcohol, certain narcotics or controlled substances, nicotine.

But what of *gambling*. A man I knew well [now dead] had been a lifelong heavy smoker when he managed, on serious medical advice, to give it up in late middle-age. He then became a compulsive *gambler*, lost all the money he had made in a long professional career, and left his wife destitute.

Gambling is an addiction of a non-physical, but still compulsive, nature. I wonder if this man's experience demonstrates that the concept of 'addictive personality' has perhaps some validity?

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: Janie
Date: 11 May 11 - 09:57 PM

Have attended a couple of recent conferences on the brain and addiction, Michael, where I attended workshops presenting research on the brain and addiction. Appears that the mechanisms of the brain gone-haywire in addiction are similar, whether the addiction is a substance or a behavior - gambling, exercising, shopping, video gaming, etc.

Addiction is clearly a multi-determined, complex and highly variable phenomenon. Like all things human (same holds for most other sentient beings,) countless variations contribute to individuality.

The severity of the addiction in terms of functional effects varies tremendously among folks addicted to the same substances, plus it would seem that some substances, such as nicotine and crack cocaine, tend to be more addictive for most people who suffer from addiction disease(s) than others.

Genes, nurture and experience all have powerful influences on the biology of the developing brain. The brain continues to develop, or at least to change, in response to all three factors throughout life. Learned behaviors are not "simply" learned behaviors, i.e. cognitive/thought processes. The brain changes both structurally and functionally in response to experience (including experience of the environment, which would also include experiencing the environment through the taking in of toxic chemicals in all the ways modern humans take in toxic chemicals - air, food, water, etc.) as well as genetics.

We are beginning to understand that efforts to understand human behavior are as complex as efforts to understand the universe - and the science of the universe is much more advanced.

I think it was Don Firth, on another thread completely unrelated to this one, who quoted a scientist friend involved in some aspect of astrophysics as saying, "The universe is not only stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine."   I don't think the complexities of sentiency are beyond the capacity of at least some humans to imagine, but I do think the matrix is so complex and individual as to always contain uncertainty and mystery.

Identical twins have identical genes. Their experiences, beginning in utero are different, and so they are differentiated very, very early in development - based perhaps on nothing more in their physical positions within the womb. One rocks sideways when Mom walks, and one rocks vertically, perhaps.

Think about it.

There are no one-line answers to understanding addiction (or any other aspect of the all that goes into "being alive."    There are no "one size fits all" remedies to the problems that arise from the same. Research in many different areas related to understanding human behavior and experience is shedding light, but there is not only more light to be shed, there is much work to be done to understanding how to make meaning of what is seen under ever changing light. Once meaning is made that has at least some general applicability to the human race, the reality is that there are no "one size fits all" answers.

That is one of the reasons our species has thrived and multiplied. It may be that is one of the reasons we may fail as a species. Or, speaking in terms of species, that diversity may be what insures some remmant of our species survives and passes at least some of our genes onto future species. Diversity = adaptability.

Or not.

Quality of life and survival of species, over the very long range, are not necessarily mutually inclusive.

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 12 May 11 - 02:55 AM

The same for some eating disorders anorexia for example becomes a compulsive addiction for some people tricking the body into feeling 'good' as the pounds are shed and it isn't always to do with body image although the media is partly to blame prommoting zero sized models. A lot of time the girls and occasionally boys get a 'rush' from feeling constantly hungry they feel in control even though in reality it is out of control. The onlooker would see the anorexic as skin and bone. But it is suprising how many stores still sell minute sizes I have seen smaller sizes than size 6 UK. Perhaps they could show some responsibility by restricting sizes from 6 upwards rather than size 2 and 4, I am not sure if that would be the answer but it could be a start. Ironically a sexy body image is not always what the anorexic is looking for so they would probably be inclined to drift to children's stores for their clothes I have actually been there I am ashamed to say so I do have some idea about this.

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: bubblyrat
Date: 12 May 11 - 09:55 AM

Having had to "dry out" twice in hospital , once with the aid of Hemerneverin ( not sure of the spelling !) and once with the help of Librium, to which I was already addicted in the first place (!) , I think I may know a little about the subject . For a start, alcohol is a very potent and addictive substance , upon which many doctors agree that IF it had only just been discovered , it would immediately have been placed on the "Dangerous Drugs " list.However , and unfortunately , its widespresd use , both socially (good !) and privately (bad !) over millenia has ensured its universal , or at least global , acceptance.
             In this last respect, I was actually GIVEN free and gratis , a relatively large amount of it daily, as part of my job ; as a British sailor in the Royal Navy , and being over the age of twenty , I was entitled to a daily "tot" of rum, one eighth of a PINT , mixed with twice that amount of water (and known as "Grog" ) upon which I rapidly came to depend ; indeed lunchtime ( when we recaived our "fix") would never seem , and has never seemed , the same again !! Add to this a couple of pints of Tiger every day ( aboard ship ) and VAST amounts of the same , plus copious amounts of " Vodka Collins" when in Singapore , for example, and it doesn't take long to understand why there is a very high incidence of alcohol dependence among ex- Navy ( and to a lessser extent, ex- Army and Air Force ) personnel.
                  The only way to stop , in my bitter experience , and as already mentioned here by others , is to WANT to give it up. I wanted to quit, the first time , because I could neither stand up nor speak coherently , a frightening and literally sobering , experience . The second time , I was threatened with expulsion from a course I was doing at Bournemouth University, if I didn't "sober up " ; so I did ! Oddly, it was much easier that second time. The same applies to smoking ; I really WANTED to give it up because I could not climb a short stairway without stopping and gasping for breath.
                  So ; I have not had a cigarette for 8 or 9 years now, and am healthier & wealthier , though,sadly , fatter !! Luckily for me , and , I suspect , others , some , and only some , doctors endorse the idea of "controlled drinking" ; this requires a lot of awareness , self-discipline , and stamina if, like me , you can't really face the thought of total abstinence for the rest of your life without a drink now and then . So that's what I do ; "Drink Aware" which it says with questionable grammatical accuracy on the average bottle. But I know what the consequences might be if I ignore that advice . Cheers !
               PS I believe in the existance of the "Addictive Personality" syndrome, and have encountered it personally in many forms, not just with regard to nicotine or alcohol ; in my case , also women ,sex , food , even playing the guitar !; virtual obsessions all , although for some reason I have never touched Cannabis ( well , once !) , Cocaine , Heroin or any other known addictive substance --- strange , isn't it ???

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 May 11 - 11:31 AM

Music, especially playing music with others, is another addictive activity that probably involves some similar process, producing stuff in our blood stream or something that makes us feel good.

The trick is to find addictive things like that that do you good as well as making you feel good. My son feels that way about doing physical exercise, which is probably good for him. He'll stagger back from work looking tired and fed up, then he'll go out for a run and come back looking exhausted, but feeling great. It's never worked that way for me...

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: lefthanded guitar
Date: 12 May 11 - 02:34 PM

Ebbie,this is an interesting topic; and I want to mention that it's not only people with low incomes who imbibe improperly. I once had a landlord who owned a home worth close to $1 M, who was a frightenly mean drunk who made everyone in the building miserable. I was glad to excape to a humbler, but better run, abode. Same nightmare with a boss when I worked a government job. In a office where people usually worked for decades; 75% of the office turned over in one year.

A reformed drinker I met at my community center said he believes that every drunk turns into a mean drunk eventually. I don't know if it's true but the lighthearted souse we see on tv is often a fiction. Like you my life has not been overly indulged, but I have not had the scourge of alcholism in my personal life.Thankful for that. I think it's impossible to have a prohibition; probably the majority of people in this country are drinkers.

Education and opportunity to indulge in other pleasures- like music as McGrath mentions- may have an impact.

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 May 11 - 05:20 PM

Actually, I think obesity (or "food addiction") is the hardest to deal with. You can give up other things completely, but you can't do that with food.

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: Wesley S
Date: 12 May 11 - 07:20 PM

True - what you have to be able to do is make good choices. And it there is one thing an addict can't do it's make good choices.

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: Joe_F
Date: 12 May 11 - 08:23 PM

I have, as William Burroughs put it, a "man within". I am addicted to adrenalin, which I whicker up with malicious fantasies. No way to put that stuff out of sight.

Subject: RE: BS: The Scourge of Alcohol
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 13 May 11 - 06:24 AM

And it there is one thing an addict can't do it's make good choices.

There are occasions I might disagree with that quite strongly.

I know that sometimes during the times my resistance has broken down after periods of stress (eg. dad 999ed in to hospital twice, pip and the dislocated shoulder, etc.) , there can be nothing nicer for me that say to go up the coast a little, feed the ducks and the swans and yes have a pint. I find the whole thing a stress reliever and not something that ever has triggered a bad episode.

If (as the have been here on occasion...) the rule book is applied, as I have found here, the end result can be a row over the possibility of a drink by a person who is "wiser" than the "addict" and the end result instead of relief and getting out but building up more for the possible final explosion.