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Is the tune 'Prince William' played in sessions?

Mo the caller 10 May 11 - 06:12 AM
Black belt caterpillar wrestler 10 May 11 - 07:19 AM
Mo the caller 10 May 11 - 07:37 AM
Jack Campin 10 May 11 - 08:01 AM
GUEST,leeneia 10 May 11 - 10:10 AM
GUEST,leeneia 10 May 11 - 11:00 AM
Mo the caller 10 May 11 - 11:11 AM
Jack Campin 10 May 11 - 03:07 PM
GUEST,leeneia 10 May 11 - 10:37 PM
GUEST,Jon 10 May 11 - 11:38 PM
Mo the caller 11 May 11 - 05:11 AM
Mo the caller 11 May 11 - 05:15 AM
Jack Campin 11 May 11 - 06:16 AM
Chris Partington 11 May 11 - 06:32 AM
Jack Campin 11 May 11 - 06:33 AM
Noreen 11 May 11 - 06:42 AM
Jack Campin 11 May 11 - 07:35 AM
Snuffy 11 May 11 - 10:34 AM
GUEST,leeneia 11 May 11 - 11:14 AM
GUEST,Jon 11 May 11 - 11:34 AM
GUEST,leeneia 11 May 11 - 11:57 AM
GUEST,Jon 11 May 11 - 12:08 PM
Jack Campin 11 May 11 - 12:29 PM
GUEST,leeneia 11 May 11 - 04:34 PM
GUEST,Jon 11 May 11 - 05:11 PM
Chris Partington 11 May 11 - 05:36 PM
Jack Campin 11 May 11 - 07:28 PM
GUEST,Jon 11 May 11 - 08:22 PM
GUEST,leeneia 12 May 11 - 12:20 AM
Chris Partington 12 May 11 - 04:54 AM
Jack Campin 12 May 11 - 05:12 AM
GUEST,Jon 12 May 11 - 06:27 AM
GUEST,Gedi-at-work 12 May 11 - 06:38 AM
Mo the caller 12 May 11 - 07:35 AM
Chris Partington 12 May 11 - 10:11 AM
Chris Partington 12 May 11 - 10:15 AM
GUEST 12 May 11 - 10:40 AM
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Subject: Is the tune Prince William played in ses
From: Mo the caller
Date: 10 May 11 - 06:12 AM

Like many club callers, I recently called the dance Prince William (from Walsh 1731).
I really like the tune and wonder if it is played in sessions, and if so what key is usual. I have the 'dots' in A, but find that on my descant recorder it sits more comfortably in G. But if it's better known in another key, maybe I should make the effort.


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Subject: RE: Is the tune Prince William played in ses
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 10 May 11 - 07:19 AM

I play it in G and I've only heard it played in that key in sessions (including at various festivals north and south of England).


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Subject: RE: Is the tune Prince William played in ses
From: Mo the caller
Date: 10 May 11 - 07:37 AM

Good


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Subject: RE: Is the tune Prince William played in ses
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 May 11 - 08:01 AM

abcnotation.com finds dots in A, G and F. The F version fits the range used in my Nine Note Tunebook so I've added it.

On the descant recorder, higher is better. A is okay but D is even better (uses just the top two strings of the fiddle in first position, so the fiddlers will be happy with that). Down in G you're going to be inaudible.

Good tune but we oughta do something about the title. How about "The Expensive Parasite's Mating Dance"?


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Subject: RE: Is the tune Prince William played in ses
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 10 May 11 - 10:10 AM

Hello, Mo. Thanks for bringing this delightful tune to my attention. My band is going to love it.

I found it at JC's tune finder.


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Subject: RE: Is the tune Prince William played in ses
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 10 May 11 - 11:00 AM

PS I'll be playing it in G on my soprano recorder. Why play it in A and have to use cross-fingerings for the G# and C#?

I suppose if you discover that the rest of the world has been playing in it A, then you might as well learn it in A. But if not, then not.

I'm sure that in my neck of the woods, nobody has heard of it before.


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Subject: RE: Is the tune Prince William played in ses
From: Mo the caller
Date: 10 May 11 - 11:11 AM

Written for the Duke of Cumberland, who became know as the Butcher for his treatment of the Scots, I believe, Jack.


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Subject: RE: Is the tune Prince William played in ses
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 May 11 - 03:07 PM

You play it in A because you get a brighter sound that way.

There is nothing at all difficult about the fingering pattern.


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Subject: RE: Is the tune Prince William played in ses
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 10 May 11 - 10:37 PM

"Written for the Duke of Cumberland..."

If so, why is it called PRINCE William's March?

Actually, Mo, that is the kind of joy-killing rumor that's often tacked on to a good song. It makes your heart ache till (five years later) you learn it's baloney.

So I'm not going to pay any attention to it


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Subject: RE: Is the tune Prince William played in ses
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 10 May 11 - 11:38 PM

Never heard it before but having just tried it on manodola (GDEA), if I had the choice, I'd pick D.

It may just be me but the tune isn't really striking me as an A tune (to me something where I might try to take advantage of the open A and E like say Athol Highlanders) at the moment.


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Subject: RE: Is the tune Prince William played in ses
From: Mo the caller
Date: 11 May 11 - 05:11 AM

Leenia don't look
at John Garden's website which gave me that information, and lot's about the dance. It only says 'probably' so you can ignore it. Or think of it as a tune for an innocent baby prince who had the misfortune to be born into the wrong family.

Now, does anyone know any good republican tunes and dances?


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Subject: RE: Is the tune Prince William played in ses
From: Mo the caller
Date: 11 May 11 - 05:15 AM

Jack, we're not all virtuosi. My fingures flap about quite enough in G so if everyone else plays the tune in an easy key (was it in one of the John Kirkpatrick books?) I'm not going to add a complication.


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Subject: RE: Is the tune Prince William played in ses
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 May 11 - 06:16 AM

There is a different "Prince William" in Richard Robinson's Tunebook - a jig in D.


X:52
T:Prince William
M:6/8
Z:Richard Robinson <richard@beulah.demon.co.uk>
%%RR_OriginalCollection: <URL:http://www.leeds.ac.uk/music/Info/RRTuneBk/>
%%ID:0000072a
K:D
A|dcB AFA|B2A ABc|dcd ede|f2d def|
g2B g2d|e2d cBA|dcB AFA|B2A A2:|
a|aba fdf|aba fdf|gfg efg|b3 a3 |
afa geg|fdf ecA|dcB AFA|B2A A2:|


With that range it isn't going to have a problem being audible.


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Subject: RE: Is the tune Prince William played in ses
From: Chris Partington
Date: 11 May 11 - 06:32 AM

It does seem to refer to the Duke of Cumberland, who may or may not have deserved the nickname later encouraged or even given to him by his jealous brother, the Prince of Wales, but he was only 10 years old in 1731, when the tune was published.


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Subject: RE: Is the tune Prince William played in ses
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 May 11 - 06:33 AM

And while we're on tunes with this kind of name...


X:850
T:Princess Beatrice
R:Hornpipe
O:Scotland
M:4/4
C:W. B. Laybourn
Z:Richard Robinson <richard@beulah.demon.co.uk>
%%RR_OriginalCollection: <URL:http://www.leeds.ac.uk/music/Info/RRTuneBk/>
%%ID:00000aef
K:Gm
dc|BDGB AD^FA|GDGB dcBA|Bdgf   edcB |AGFE DcBA   |
   BDGB AD^FA|GDGB dcBA|f=e_ec AD^FA|GBdg G2    :|
FE|DBEB FBEB |DFBd fbfd|Ec=Ec FcGc |Acec AFEC   |
   DBEB FBEB |DFBd fbfd|f=e_ed cBAG |FEDC [B,2D2]:|


Laybourn was writing in the late 19th century - I often play his "The Grand Old Man versus the Rt. Hon. W.B. Gladstone's Hornpipe" from 1880. I don't know anything about Princess Beatrice, presumably one of Queen Victoria's offspring. This one *is* a bit tricky on the descant recorder - just about do-able if you take the last bar up an octave, but all those low E flats are hard to play effectively.


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Subject: RE: Is the tune Prince William played in ses
From: Noreen
Date: 11 May 11 - 06:42 AM

"Written for the Duke of Cumberland..."

If so, why is it called PRINCE William's March?


Because, leenia, he was Prince William, Duke of Cumberland;

akin to Queen Elizabeth's husband being Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh and the newly-married Prince William, Duke of Cambridge.

Good tune, btw- not come across it before.


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Subject: RE: Is the tune Prince William played in ses
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 May 11 - 07:35 AM

Prince William Augustus of Hanover, Duke of Cumberland, Marquis of Berkhamstead, Earl of Kensington, Viscount Trematon and Baron of Alderney.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Cumberland
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/History/Barons/ExtinctDukes.html


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Subject: RE: Is the tune Prince William played in ses
From: Snuffy
Date: 11 May 11 - 10:34 AM

From Wikipedia:

Many places in the American colonies were named after him, including the Cumberland River, the Cumberland Gap, the Cumberland Plateau, and the Cumberland Mountains, in addition to several counties and towns named "Cumberland" in the mid-18th century. Prince William County, Virginia is also named for him.

In 2005 he was selected by the BBC History Magazine as the 18th century's worst Briton


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Subject: RE: Is the tune Prince William played in ses
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 11 May 11 - 11:14 AM

Hello, Jack. I'm interested in the tunes you posted in abc, but they don't convert at the Tune-o-tron or at Folkinfo. Folkinfo notes that they don't have a K field.

I tried searching at Richard Robinson's tunebook but...(long story)

Do you know how to correct the files?


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Subject: RE: Is the tune Prince William played in ses
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 May 11 - 11:34 AM

Strange.. They are converting OK for me at folkinfo (and have K: fields). I'd think Tune-O-Tron should be OK too.


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Subject: RE: Is the tune Prince William played in ses
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 11 May 11 - 11:57 AM

Must be evil spirits.


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Subject: RE: Is the tune Prince William played in ses
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 May 11 - 12:08 PM

Not sure what it is but I'd guess at something is getting changed in the copy/paste. I've got a sort of debug thing running at folkinfo at the moment. In the messages and the links there is a number that identifies the abc posted. eg a midi link could be http://www.folkinfo.org/songs/tmp/1305129730.mid.

I'm not sure if it would show anything up but using that one as an example, http://www.folkinfo.org/songs/tmp/1305129730.postvars will show what actually got posted to the converter.


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Subject: RE: Is the tune Prince William played in ses
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 May 11 - 12:29 PM

The problem is that to get the monospaced layout I have to use <PRE> ... </PRE> tags ("preformatted text").

Mudcat displays this wrongly: instead of simply reproducing what I typed in a monospace font, it also puts a space at the start of each line. This is enough to make most ABC software fail to recognize it as a tune.

So, delete a space at the start of each ABC line and it'll work fine.


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Subject: RE: Is the tune Prince William played in ses
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 11 May 11 - 04:34 PM

Thanks for the tip, Jack. I believe this tune will make a nice addition to my flute repertoire.

Meanwhile, I don't believe Mo's initial question has been addressed. Is Prince William's March much played in sessions? I believe the answer must be no.


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Subject: RE: Is the tune Prince William played in ses
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 May 11 - 05:11 PM

Sorry about the continued drift but it works for me with the spaces. Which browser(s) is it known to fail on?

As for the spaces themselves, as far as I know, abc2midi just prints a warning "whitespace in field declaration" and abcm2ps just skips them so I'm still a bit puzzled as to whether there really is a problem with this and the abc converter. If it is, it may be that I could look to preprocessing the abc so that leading spaces are trimmed from information lines (they are legal in "note lines") so that people can copy/paste from Mudcat without encountering this.


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Subject: RE: Is the tune Prince William played in ses
From: Chris Partington
Date: 11 May 11 - 05:36 PM

As to whether it gets played in sessions, then yes, it does get played in some of the more specialist English sessions. Certainly at the English Country Music Weekends in June, and the East Anglian Traditional Music Weekend in September. It is also in Barry Callaghan's book 'Hardcore English', pub. EFDSS.


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Subject: RE: Is the tune Prince William played in ses
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 May 11 - 07:28 PM

It isn't a browser problem, it's an ABC processor problem. BarFly doesn't like the leading spaces at all and it seems whatever leeneia is using doesn't either.

Some websites have another problem, replacing newlines with double newlines (probably some kind of confusion about whether to use old-Mac, Unix or Microsoft line end conventions, compounded by some misinterpretation of character encodings). And I have encountered some situations where 16-bit and 8-bit character encodings get muddled, resulting in something which is 50% unreadable high-bit characters which have to be edited out before the tune makes sense (this happens with some downloads via John Chambers' TuneFunder). Great. Fortunately Mudcat doesn't create that much chaos yet.

I suspect trying to auto-guess in software will introduce more confusion than it resolves.


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Subject: RE: Is the tune Prince William played in ses
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 May 11 - 08:22 PM

OK, thanks. It's just leenia had mentioned our converter and I've been unable to find a case where it has failed because of leading space. Between that and your comments regarding perhaps causing more confusion by trying to fix, I'll leave it alone.


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Subject: RE: Is the tune Prince William played in ses
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 12 May 11 - 12:20 AM

I have Windows XP and IE 7. It wouldn't work at the Concertina.net Tune-o-tron or at Folk Info. I tried more than once at each site.

When I took out the spaces, it worked at the Tune-o-tron. I didn't test FolkInfo, since I had what I wanted.

I use the Tune-o-tron rather often and appreciate the service.


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Subject: RE: Is the tune Prince William played in ses
From: Chris Partington
Date: 12 May 11 - 04:54 AM

Yes, it sounds like the historical EndOfLine argument between PC and Mac, which is a continuing PITA for ABC users when a tune goes from one format to the other. If you keep finding that extra spaces are being added when pasting into the box, you could try pasting them into Notepad first (since you're on XP), which is what I have got into the habit of doing before then copying and pasting into Hotmail. This seems to automatically fix something, somehow.


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Subject: RE: Is the tune Prince William played in ses
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 May 11 - 05:12 AM

This isn't a PC/Mac issue - I'm looking at this thread now on a Windows machine and it shows the leading spaces in the preformatted tunes just the same as my MacOS machine at home (both are using Firefox). It's a bug in Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: Is the tune Prince William played in ses
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 12 May 11 - 06:27 AM

I wouldn't have thought there should be a difference between folkinfo and concertina.net on that one leenia. That said, we do tend to update to the current stable versions of abcm2ps and the abcmidi more frequently though so there can be differences down to the versions of these programs in use at the sites.


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Subject: RE: Is the tune Prince William played in ses
From: GUEST,Gedi-at-work
Date: 12 May 11 - 06:38 AM

You may be interested to know that it also goes quite nicely with that other well known tune, Bonny Kate......

cheers
Ged


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Subject: RE: Is the tune Prince William played in ses
From: Mo the caller
Date: 12 May 11 - 07:35 AM

I called both dances last week (can't remember why).

Bonny Cate and Harper's Frolic are both tunes that have escaped into the wild from an eighteen century dance manuscript, and gone down the pub. Hearing a recording of Bonny Cate played according to the original 'dots' I think they have improved.


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Subject: RE: Is the tune Prince William played in ses
From: Chris Partington
Date: 12 May 11 - 10:11 AM

Ignore this, it's just a repeat of the tune above. I copied it, including the spaces before the lines of code, into my copy of ABCExplorer, where it duly appeared perfectly and without the offending spaces, and I have copied it back to here to see if the spaces reappear. So...

X:850
T:Princess Beatrice
R:Hornpipe
O:Scotland
M:4/4
C:W. B. Laybourn
Z:Richard Robinson
%%RR_OriginalCollection:
%%ID:00000aef
K:Gm
dc|BDGB AD^FA|GDGB dcBA|Bdgf   edcB |AGFE DcBA   |
BDGB AD^FA|GDGB dcBA|f=e_ec AD^FA|GBdg G2    :|
FE|DBEB FBEB |DFBd fbfd|Ec=Ec FcGc |Acec AFEC   |
DBEB FBEB |DFBd fbfd|f=e_ed cBAG |FEDC [B,2D2]:|


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Subject: RE: Is the tune Prince William played in ses
From: Chris Partington
Date: 12 May 11 - 10:15 AM

OK. I see that there are now no spaces.
Jack, is the computer from which you uploaded the tune the Mac by any chance?


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Subject: RE: Is the tune Prince William played in ses
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 11 - 10:40 AM

Ah but Chirs, you did not use the pre tag. See the difference in how they line up?

With pre

X:52
T:Prince William
M:6/8
Z:Richard Robinson
%%RR_OriginalCollection:
%%ID:0000072a
K:D
A|dcB AFA|B2A ABc|dcd ede|f2d def|
g2B g2d|e2d cBA|dcB AFA|B2A A2:|
a|aba fdf|aba fdf|gfg efg|b3 a3 |
afa geg|fdf ecA|dcB AFA|B2A A2:|


no pre

X:52
T:Prince William
M:6/8
Z:Richard Robinson
%%RR_OriginalCollection:
%%ID:0000072a
K:D
A|dcB AFA|B2A ABc|dcd ede|f2d def|
g2B g2d|e2d cBA|dcB AFA|B2A A2:|
a|aba fdf|aba fdf|gfg efg|b3 a3 |
afa geg|fdf ecA|dcB AFA|B2A A2:|

---
Think I might need to look at this at folkinfo too...


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