Tech: ford focus repair question

Subject: Tech: ford focus repair question
From: frogprince
Date: 18 May 11 - 02:31 PM

All I really wanta do is remove the grill, to add a little custom touch. So I went to take out the philips screws holding the little shroud over the top of the grill. They aren't screws; they're black plastic expansion plugs with fake screw heads. I've tried prying them up as much as I dared. Can you get the things out somehow and reuse them, or do you have to bust or hack them off and replace them? And yes, I tried to look online myself; I just got either
"remove the philips screwa" or "remove the expansion plugs".

                  Thanks, Dean

Subject: RE: Tech: ford focus repair question
From: Gurney
Date: 18 May 11 - 03:18 PM

Haven't any specific information, but... some of those things actually do screw out, the centre bit. They push in, screw out.
Not all heads that look like that are Phillips, some are Pozidriv. A Phillips screwdriver is sloppy in Pozidriv, Pozidriv won't fit properly in Phillips. They bugger each other's head up.
Phillips head is a straight, thin cross, Pozidriv has extra scratches and tiny enbryonic blades between the four main ones, which are slightly thicker. Good luck. They strip easily.

Subject: RE: Tech: ford focus repair question
From: frogprince
Date: 18 May 11 - 03:43 PM

So far as the head slotting, it's regular phillips.

Subject: RE: Tech: ford focus repair question
From: frogprince
Date: 18 May 11 - 03:51 PM

these things just spin in the holes, either direction, with no resistance at all.

Subject: RE: Tech: ford focus repair question
From: Gurney
Date: 18 May 11 - 04:12 PM

Ok, they are stripped, or have no thread, despite the head. Try to access them from the back. If possible. Push the centre pin out with a blade in the slots, at least enough to be able to access them with locking pliers (at the front.)

I am long out of that trade, but in the past I've made all sorts of tools for this sort of job, forked levers, J-shaped pullers, thin wire twist-up loops, etc. Diagonal side-cutters are often useful, used gently, as are electricians wire-strippers.
You only have to move that pin up a little to access it, and the pin often/usually goes right through the expander part.
If you can access a retainer in another place, you can take it apart and study an approach.
They often grip well enough that force will distort the metal they go through!
There are a lot of different types of fastener, and I was never a Ford man. Perhaps JohninKansas can add another approach. This is his sort of thing, too.

Subject: RE: Tech: ford focus repair question
From: frogprince
Date: 18 May 11 - 04:36 PM

I think I can reach them from the back, if I just remove the engine...

Subject: RE: Tech: ford focus repair question
From: Leadfingers
Date: 18 May 11 - 04:57 PM

Havent had a Ford since 1985 , but I HAVE met plastic plug ins that you CAN Prize out with a blade under the head ! Faiing that , do you have a Ford dealership anywhere nearby where you could just ask the question ?

Subject: RE: Tech: ford focus repair question
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 May 11 - 05:18 PM

Hi, Dean -

I've tried to save and re-use those plastic fasteners, but then I found out how cheap they are to buy as replacements. Most auto supply stores carry them. If nothing else, you can drill them out - but make sure you have replacements ready.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Tech: ford focus repair question
From: Gurney
Date: 18 May 11 - 05:24 PM

Two pointed blade/levers, one each side, or as I said, a J-shaped puller or L-shaped pusher through the grille. A long metal rod to use as an extended hammer/pusher.
Cars today are built for the convenience of the assembler, not the convenience of the mechanic. On my Camry, it is neccessary to remove the intake trunking to change half the spark-plugs....

Subject: RE: Tech: ford focus repair question
From: gnu
Date: 18 May 11 - 06:12 PM

Gurney... lucky you don't have a Ford pickup. Gotta pull the engine to get at the last two plugs. Plugs and wires at the dealership... $2400. My buddy's company is getting rid of all almost all of their Ford trucks after that bill, over fourty of them. Going to small cars and hiring out any need for a truck when the few they will keep are not available.

BTW, screw Philips heads. They should be illegal, along with standard. Robertson should be they only head allowed on a screw.

Subject: RE: Tech: ford focus repair question
From: Gurney
Date: 18 May 11 - 06:30 PM

Gnu, on metal heads, I agree, but Robertsons on those tiny plastic ones, I'm not so sure. And it will be a while before the average household here catches-on. Virtually NO screwdriver SETS have them. Nor Pozidriv, although more than half household screws are Pozidriv. How about where you are?

American-style pickups are rare here, though. Japanese-style for work, Aussie-style for 'best,' and very fast beasts they are, too. Look up the Holden Ute. (Utility vehicle, not Native American.)

Subject: RE: Tech: ford focus repair question
From: gnu
Date: 18 May 11 - 07:00 PM

I hail from the Great White Frozen Canuckistan. Never even heard of Pozidriv. All I know is that Robertsons don't fall off the tip of the driver, don't strip as long as you are careful and cause far less swearing than fucking Philips... or any others. I shall now google Posidriv.

Subject: RE: Tech: ford focus repair question
From: gnu
Date: 18 May 11 - 07:08 PM

Nope... might be okay if the square part in the middle didn't have the extra spaces at the corners removed but it seems to me that this gives less "bite" on the screw by the driver. I do like the added torque of the outer "slots" but I think a combination of Robertson and Philips, which is what the Pozidriv is, without the spaces at the corners would work better.

Granted, I have NEVER used a Posidrive, so that's just a guess. But, I like my Robertsons because the driver holds the screw well... does the Posidrive do that too? What I mean is, I can "stick" a Robertson on the driver and it stays there while I negotiate getting it into where it's supposed to go without having to hold the screw.

Subject: RE: Tech: ford focus repair question
From: frogprince
Date: 18 May 11 - 09:34 PM

Interestin'; I had never heard a square drive called Robertson. I've encountered a lot more hex drive myself.

Subject: RE: Tech: ford focus repair question
From: Gurney
Date: 19 May 11 - 01:52 AM

Depends what you do and where you live. We used Pozidriv in England in the motor trade back in the 70s,(do they still?) and still use them in NZ today in the building trade, but square drive is gradually taking over for builders. In the airlines they use a tri-wing, like Phillips but only three blades. Chinese and some Japanese stuff seems to use Phillips. The main advantage of Pozidriv is that you don't shatter bits quite so easily when using a power driver, but they still strip out like Phillips do. We are also getting some heads that take everything, both stardrives and slotted. All badly.
There are also lots of other security bits to stop the proles messing with things that they don't understand.

Gnu, Pozi does hold the screw, but only until the bit starts to wear a little.
Frogprince, hex-drives used to be, and by specialists still are, called Allen-head. They are often in high-tensile applications.

Subject: RE: Tech: ford focus repair question
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 19 May 11 - 02:54 AM

About the only square drive (Robertson) screws available in my part of the US are wallboard screws, for mounting "plasterboard" to walls, and "deck screws" for wooden decks (housing - not boats). Both of these are relatively low-torque applications, with the square drive slightly better with respect to retention on the driver than the more common Phillips. The better retention of the screw on the driver with the square socket has some advantage for power driving with manual tools.

The Phillips and PosiDrive sockets are slightly different approaches to clearing the misfit at the center of the screwdriver due to the "fillet" between the "blades." US standards generally assume forge-formed screw heads and screwdriver blades, and this method of manufacture slightly favors the Phillips for manufacturing cost. The PosiDrive is theoretically better adapted to cut slots in either or both of the screw head and/or screwdriver, although forge-forming can get pretty much the same results. For properly fitted tools/screws there's little real difference between the two, but the best of tools cease being "properly fitted" after fairly short use.

PosiDrive screws are virtually unknown in the US market so far as I've seen. Phillips and Square (Robertson) bits are easily available.

Allen Head (hexagonal socket) screws are much used in machinery and to some extent in US autos, and are adaptable to higher installation torque than any of the above. They also have better retention on the installation tool. In US "standard parts" Allen Head fasteners are seldom found at lower grades than SAE 3. In US autos, the Torx head is the preferred kind for "power driving" due to retention on the tool comparable to the Allen but also somewhat easier "machine insertion" of the tool into the fastener head. Although Torx advertising claims higher driving torque capabilities than for the Allen, few applications install either kind to high enough torques to really make the difference of much significance. The Torx bits actually are a little easier to find here than Allen bits for use with power tools, although Allen "key" wrenches and T-Handles are easy to find.

Where it is necessary to develop the full mechanical strength of a "screwed" fastener, the external hex head usually is the way to go, although designing a fastening to take full advantage of one or another style of machine-strength screw is a "skilled art." True "High-Strength" joints nearly always require both bolt and nut, and nearly always incorporate an additional retention or locking device of one kind or another. Internal Hex (Allen) or Torx screws do generally allow closer bolt-to-bolt spacing than external hex heads, so they're sometimes used in highly stressed joints where uniformity of stress loadings is more important than individual fastener strengths, and are somewhat more often used in "threaded holes" without separate nuts.

As to the plastic push-pins, it's been quite a while since I've been under the sheetmetal in a Ford, but I'll take a chance and vote with Joe O: The most common kinds are intended for one-time insertion¹ and should be replaced with new ones if you have to take them out. You'll be able to tell for sure once you get the (pieces of the) first one out.

¹ In "specification assembly" to US Government and Standards Association rules, Nuts with friction-retention devices cannot generally be removed and replaced more than about three times - with specific inspections if considered for re-installation even once. Nuts with Deformed Thread retention features are about the same, but less likely to pass the inspections. Split lockwashers are (it says in the rules) always to be replaced. Toothed lockwashers are not properly used for "retention" so they can usually go back in five times "if they look good." Castle Nuts can be reused, but the cotter pins (or wires) should always go in new (if you really want to fussy about it).

John

Subject: RE: Tech: ford focus repair question
From: frogprince
Date: 19 May 11 - 10:24 AM

Allen is standard usage for hex socket around here; I just had a brain fart or I would have said Allen.
I just picked up the replacement fasteners I need; they really are supposed to be plastic phillips head screws inside expanders; someone had stripped the threads totally on all of them, so I just have to pry or chew the old ones out. The shop didn't even charge me for the three new ones.