BS: US supreme court on prison toilets???

Subject: BS: US supreme court on prison toilets???
From: gnu
Date: 24 May 11 - 06:46 PM

As ordered by the court, 46 thousand prisoners must be released because there is only ONE toliet for every 54 prisoners? WTF?

I just saw it on Jay Leno so it must be true, but it's hard to believe.

Subject: RE: BS: US supreme court on prison toilets???
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 24 May 11 - 07:05 PM

Umm, that's an interesting garbling of the facts, however even when in order, it's a serious mess:

Justices, 5-4, Tell California to Cut Prisoner Population (NY Times)

"Conditions in California's overcrowded prisons are so bad that they violate the Eighth Amendment's ban on cruel and unusual punishment, the Supreme Court ruled on Monday, ordering the state to reduce its prison population by more than 30,000 inmates."

The toilet issue apparently does exist somewhere, among many other appalling conditions. Of course, conditions are not uniformly that extreme, but in total, bad enough to result in this decision.

"State officials in California will have two years to comply with the order, and they may ask for more time. Justice Kennedy emphasized that the reduction in population need not be achieved solely by releasing prisoners early. Among the other possibilities, he said, are new construction, transfers out of state [which has already been done] and using county facilities. "

U.S. Supreme Court orders massive inmate release to relieve California's crowded prisons - L.A. Times (a misleading headline, given the above)

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: BS: US supreme court on prison toilets???
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 May 11 - 08:06 PM

We've had a problem with overcrowded prisons here in California for far too long. Legislators keep lengthening prison sentences, and we had a string of governors who found it politically unpopular to allow parole. So, our prison population has skyrocketed, far faster than we could build prisons. Jerry Brown has begun to reverse that trend, and I think it's a very good thing.

California prisons have been under federal supervision for a number of years because of overcrowding and because of inadequate medical care, so the courts have begun getting tough on California prisons. Justice Kennedy lived in the Sacramento area for many years and understands California's idiosyncrasies, and he is well-respected here. I interviewed him once, and I was very favorably impressed. He was cordial and gracious, and also very rational and balanced in his thinking.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: US supreme court on prison toilets???
From: Tangledwood
Date: 24 May 11 - 09:04 PM

Well how sad. You don't like the jail conditions, don't commit the crime.

Subject: RE: BS: US supreme court on prison toilets???
From: gnu
Date: 24 May 11 - 09:31 PM

I didn't start the tread to say anything but "WTF is with that?"

However, I must ask WTF are that many people in jail? SO many that the supreme court says let a shitload (as pointed out Jay's figures are wrong) go free?

What is wrong?

Subject: RE: BS: US supreme court on prison toilets???
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 May 11 - 09:40 PM

Well, Tangledwood, I think that if prison conditions are inhumane or demeaning, all a prison does is create more dedicated criminals. If a person is treated fairly and humanely in prison, there might be a chance of reform. Also, prisoners are a lot easier to control if they're treated fairly and given some sort of mental stimulation.

I realize that the Conventional Wisdom demands increasingly harsh punishment for crime, but I've seen no evidence that harsher punishment does anything other than increase the cost of incarceration.



-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: US supreme court on prison toilets???
From: Bobert
Date: 24 May 11 - 10:28 PM

It's more than just toilets... These people are being treated worse than animals... The bunk beds are 3 high... I mean, lets get real here... The US is the "Incarceration Capitol" of the world...

In the words of Waylon Jennings, "We need a change"...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: US supreme court on prison toilets???
From: number 6
Date: 24 May 11 - 10:34 PM

well ... prisoners do get 3 square meals a day ... decent clothing ... free medical and dental care .... there is a large population in the U.S. (that includes children and the elderly) that don't even get those amenities including decent toilets.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: US supreme court on prison toilets???
From: Bobert
Date: 24 May 11 - 10:38 PM

If it's so wonderful then why not turn California's prisons into family get-aways???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: US supreme court on prison toilets???
From: number 6
Date: 24 May 11 - 10:47 PM

Maybe make the issue concerning the plight of (extreme) poor population a higher priority and find a remedy for that. Maybe then crime will go down.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: US supreme court on prison toilets???
From: Bobert
Date: 24 May 11 - 11:03 PM

100% agreement...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: US supreme court on prison toilets???
From: number 6
Date: 24 May 11 - 11:08 PM

When I see this (link below) the plight of prisoners is furthest from my mind ... this link exhibits just a small percentage of the plight of America's poor .... forget that they are indigenous people, just remember they are human beings in the richest country of the world.

This is where "we need a change" .. as I said, if we can remedy (change) this, then in all probability crime will go down. Prison populations will go down. Then we can concentrate on how we incarcerate and reform prisoners. We have a long road ahead and one step at a time can this change be made.

take a scroll through these photos and read the captions.

Urban Jungle on the Reservation


biLL

Subject: RE: BS: US supreme court on prison toilets???
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 May 11 - 11:16 PM

The numbers provided to Supremes are also about eight or ten years old. Living near a rez, I agree: let's concentrate on the really poor and deserving. Let's get to the root of the problem instead of simply pruning the branches.

Subject: RE: BS: US supreme court on prison toilets???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 May 11 - 04:27 AM

Tanglewood no doubt,if living in Saudi Arabia would say "If you don't want your hands chopped off, don't steal..."

I was watching a BBC programme on American jails in Florida the other night (Louis Theroux). What we were shown was shameful. Prisons on the UK, from what I've seen in documentaries, are quite bad enough, but nothing in comparison.

Subject: RE: BS: US supreme court on prison toilets???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 25 May 11 - 04:29 AM

BS:US supreme court on prison toilets???....That's where most of them, along with a lot of our 'representatives', and administrations belong!!!!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: US supreme court on prison toilets???
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 May 11 - 05:08 AM

McGrath ~ I see what you mean; but can't help feeling that your rejoinder to Tangledwood is more an animadversion against Saudi Arabia than against the point he had made, which strikes me as valid up to a point. "If you can't do the time, don't do the crime" is not a full answer to the problem of crime & punishment, but is not an entirely invalid observation either IMO.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: US supreme court on prison toilets???
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 25 May 11 - 08:15 AM

Prison conditions should be humane, hygienic, dignified and civilised. Apart from the fact that quite a few prisoners are on remand, therefore not yet even proved guilty, even convicted inmates should not be suffering anything except the withdrawal of their liberty. If one desires them actually to suffer physically, one is condoning bread-and-water, the lash, indefinite solitary confinement, straw on the floor, etc etc. Is this what a civilised society wishes? Believe me, I've met dozens of prisoners in many UK prisons, and they're mostly thoroughly Bad Lads, but I don't want them to be treated like that. Also, the Prison Staff get on much better with their charges if conditions are fairly acceptable. They have to keep everyone calm and prevent simmering resentment to build up. 'Slopping out' is thankfully no longer around in the UK, every cell has a toilet.

Subject: RE: BS: US supreme court on prison toilets???
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 May 11 - 09:09 AM

IMHO, there are two primary reasons for the overcrowded conditions in US prisons...and neither of them have much to do with either the prisoners themselves or the resources various levels of government are willing/able to put toward solving the problem. First, our laws treat as crimes things that are, at their worst, character flaws. Included in this are prostitution - and I'm referring to the prostitutes themselves, not to others involved in the sex trade - and the possession and use of marijuana and other street drugs. Second, many offenses have legally-mandated minimum sentences, even for the first infraction, regardless of circumstances. Unfortunately, our overall swing to the right over the past dozen years or so has pretty much eliminated any real prospects of doing anything about either or these.

Subject: RE: BS: US supreme court on prison toilets???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 May 11 - 09:45 AM

There is a third primary reason, and it is one that artbrooks dismisses - the refusal by voters to pay sufficient taxes to pay for the enormous cost of civilised prisons needed for such enormous numbers of prisoners, numbers which arise because of the existing criminal system and cultural/economic structure of American society.

There's a political corollary of "if you can't do the time don't do the crime". It's "if you can't pay the cost, don't buy the policy".

Subject: RE: BS: US supreme court on prison toilets???
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 May 11 - 11:44 AM

Prison should not be better than the real world.

But in the US the "war on drugs" is filling prisons with regular people who happen to get high - not with criminals who commit crimes for drug money, as intended.

Subject: RE: BS: US supreme court on prison toilets???
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 May 11 - 12:05 PM

Amen, McGrath.

And Mrrzy, RE: the "War On Drugs", if I may quote Phil Ochs: "We're fighting in a war we lost before the war began".

Subject: RE: BS: US supreme court on prison toilets???
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 25 May 11 - 01:34 PM

yes and yes (Art & McGrath).

Subject: RE: BS: US supreme court on prison toilets???
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 May 11 - 05:11 PM

I didn't dismiss anything - I just don't think that is an important factor, hyperbole notwithstanding. There would be no need to pay for more and better prisons if there weren't so many people jailed for victimless crimes.

Besides, voters don't choose to pay taxes or not. Politicians are the ones who decide on tax levels and what the money should be spent on. The reality is that there is a disconnect between voters and their alleged "representatives", as evidenced by the fact that they are normally selected by a majority of less than 1-2% of those voting, but barely half of those eligible bother to vote. In addition, many of those voting are there because of a single hot-button issue and the topic of adequate prisons, for example, may never come up during an election.

Subject: RE: BS: US supreme court on prison toilets???
From: Bobert
Date: 25 May 11 - 06:22 PM

The problems with crime/criminals in the US is complex... But here are a number of thoughts:

1. De-criminalize prostitution and drugs...

2. Implement sane gun control laws...

3. Fix out broken educational system...

4. Increase taxes to spend on education, mid-night basketball, summer jobs programs, community centers...

and...

5. Create public/private partnerships between corporations and prisons so inmates work while incarcerated for a company that will continue his or her employment after the prisoner is released...

Them is just for starters...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: US supreme court on prison toilets???
From: gnu
Date: 25 May 11 - 06:26 PM

Sounds good Bobert. As long as the measures are done with some safety and a LOT of education.

Subject: RE: BS: US supreme court on prison toilets???
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 25 May 11 - 09:02 PM

Some interesting data on the relationship (or not) between crime and imprisonment - including a US-Canada comparison: click.

Subject: RE: BS: US supreme court on prison toilets???
From: artbrooks
Date: 25 May 11 - 09:42 PM

Interesting, but hardly surprising. Thanks, Becky.

Subject: RE: BS: US supreme court on prison toilets???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 26 May 11 - 12:55 PM

Welcome back, Bobert!!!
Well, I might as well start in on ya'...(just to make you feel 'at home').

Bobert: "The problems with crime/criminals in the US is complex... But here are a number of thoughts:

1. De-criminalize prostitution and drugs...

Sounds like a vote for Ron Paul

2. Implement sane gun control laws...(define 'sane')

Sounds like a vote for a number of candidates.

3. Fix out broken educational system...

Sounds like another vote for Ron Paul

4. Increase taxes to spend on education, mid-night basketball, summer jobs programs, community centers...

Sounds like a vote for Obama

and...

5. Create public/private partnerships between corporations and prisons so inmates work while incarcerated for a company that will continue his or her employment after the prisoner is released...

Sounds like a vote for Adolf Hitler....Except after your work you get a permanent retirement program!

Them is just for starters...

B~"

..as I said earlier, "Welcome back!"

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: US supreme court on prison toilets???
From: gnu
Date: 26 May 11 - 02:08 PM

DD... there should be (somehow) a plot for rap on that graph.

Subject: RE: BS: US supreme court on prison toilets???
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 May 11 - 02:15 PM

"Create public/private partnerships between corporations and prisons so inmates work while incarcerated for a company that will continue his or her employment after the prisoner is released..."Bobert

In Juneau, Alaska, our Correctional Center inmates go to a Halfway House for up to a year before they are released into the community. At the HH their activities are regulated and they all have counselors; in addition inmates that were incarcerated for alcohol-drug related offense are encouraged to begin attending daily AA meetings. (In some cases, they even go to a Three-Quarters House; people who don't feel ready to be completely on their own can go there and still have curfews and sign in-and-out rules)

From the Halfway House they can take jobs in the community in a field that interests them. In the apartment house I run, we hve several ex-immates that still work at the jobs they started at the HH.

It occurs to me that maybe Juneau is in the vanguard.

Subject: RE: BS: US supreme court on prison toilets???
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 May 11 - 02:29 PM

Here is one program which is 25 years old and still going which is a good example of rehabilitating inmates: Wild Horse Inmate Program Turns 25.